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  1. #1
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    Blue Champion Changes

    Whilst I'm fully aware that the Blue Line on Champion is one of the most underused trait lines, and Champions have far more pressing concerns with regards to their Yellow/Red line viability in groups - as someone who enjoys and frequently plays a Blue Champ, I would love to see the following changes to the Line, if/when a Champion rework is back on the table.

    I obviously don't want to detract from any work on the Red & Yellow lines, but would feel rather dissappointed if after another balance pass, the class still struggled to tank effectively.

    --

    With that being said, here goes; for me, I see two major issues with the Blue Line, that can very easily be addressed with little work (I hope).

    1. The first is threat, I understand blue champion is meant to mimic or encapsulate something similar to that of a Yellow Guardian, in the sense that you throw off a little bit of survivability in tanking, in favour of dealing a little bit more damage, which is fine and works completely fine for Yellow Guardians, very simply because of Flash of Light - Yellow Guardians have by far the best threat generation in the game and find themselves very rarely actually having to use force taunts. The same cannot be said of Blue Champs, in order to even get close to the damage of a Yellow Guardian you would have to sacrifice a LOT of survivability, and then you're just basically a Yellow Champion in blue traits and ultimately, a weak tank.

    My suggestions to deal with the issues surrounding threat for Champions would be as follows:

    - Lower the cooldown of True Heroics in Blue Line from 2 minutes to 1 minute, mirroring the cooldown of Guardians Challenge.
    - Lower the cooldown of Challenge from 30 seconds to either 15 or 10 seconds.
    - Increase Riposte Damage, by around 50%.
    - Either, allow Riposte to be used without a parry response OR allow it to always critically hit, either change would help with threat.
    - Masochism rework, increase the % chance for the effect to apply from 20% to 50%, but lower the reflect from 30% to 15%-10%, and make it generate more threat than it does currently.

    I don't believe any of these changes would be game breaking in anwyay, and would go a long way to ensuring champions have sufficient threat generation.

    --

    2. The second major issue I have with Blue Line is that a lot of our cooldown skills, blue traits, and blue orientated legacies make very little sense and are extremely underwhelming in some cases. Below I've listed several changes that could seriously make a lot of difference:

    Traits;

    - "Bracing Against Defeat" the blue trait that changes Bracing Attack to generate 2 fervour, heal more and give an incoming Healing buff. Unfortunately the heal is just too weak, being only 20k at our current level cap when we have morale pools of over 400k+. My suggestion here would be to make the trait transform Bracing Attack into a morale % based heal either 15% with a 30 second cooldown or 25% with a 1 minute cooldown either would work.
    - "Exalted Combatant", our 25% morale heal that automatically procs when we go below 30% health - could I suggest that you lower the morale threshold for the heal but at the same time increase the heal itself - so instead of 25% morale at 30% health, something like 50% morale at 10-15% health?
    - "Quick with a Blade" - allowing Merciful strike to be used regardless of the targets morale %, whilst a good concept, it needs more to it, you know? Especially as one of our two blue line capstone skills, could I suggest that you make it apply a debuff of some kind (Such as reducing the targets outgoing damage / Armour Value, or increase the targets incoming damage), or make it a force taunt (similar to what you did with Blade of Elendil in Yellow line for Captains).
    - "Fight through the Pain" & "Unstable", both effects requiring you to be critically hit to take effect, the main issue I have with these two buffs is that they're reliant on something else - Fight through the Pain is a very nice buff, but requires absolute RNG for you to receive it, could you maybe add these buffs onto existing skills / or require that you parry an attack instead (something that is far more likely, especially with Fight through the Pain giving you +% parry chance).
    - Champions also have no traits that grant raw +% B/P/E like other classes do, could I suggest removing "Vigour of Champions" (Increasing the power restore on Second Wind by a total of 25%), in favour of a +% parry trait = +1% per rank to a total of +5%.

    Skills;

    - "Adamant" has a way too short base duration, being only 10 seconds and max 15 with a legacy. The standard base duration should be increased by +5 seconds.
    - "Dire Need", this skill needs SERIOUS revision, it was made for a time when we had much lower morale pools, and power > morale conversion could be used effectively. Either this needs to be changed to be a flat Morale % heal with a high power cost, or the Power > Morale conversion rate needs to be increased by at least 10x - as it stands, even with the legacy (Which is also not working as intended I believe), you are sacrificing 36.4% power for = power cost x 800% morale heal, which effectively translates as, at least for me, 2,182 power cost for a 18,529 Heal, considering this is meant to be one of our main cooldown skills, this is an asbolute joke, the only current way to impact this value is to get a higher power pool, thus increasing the % power sacrificed.
    - "Unbreakable", currently this skill is not that bad, the only change I'd like to see, is that instead of giving a +11,400 Rating value to tactical mitigation (capping out at +113,997 tactical mit and +20% max morale), to instead give a +X% value to Physical and tactical mitigation (capping out at +10% Physical and Tactical mitigation and still the same +20% max morale), considering the effect only lasts for 30seconds with a 2 minute cooldown, and its effectiveness obviously requires you to be hit in the first place, I don't see why this couldn't be something, even more so considering it is our blue line Capstone. Ultimately it would make the champion a little bit sturdier in AoE fights.

    Legacies;

    - If the above suggested change is made to Bracing Attack, I would argue there would no longer be a need for the Bracing Attack Legacy, however if it stays, it should be reworked to give a much lower +% morale, as it stands it's currently on +52.2%. So if the heal was changed to be a % based morale heal, I would suggest the legacy cap out at +10% (If the skill is 15% heal with a 30second cooldown), OR +15% (If the skill is 25% heal with a 1 minute cooldown).
    - We have a legacy that increases Fight On Critical rating, could I suggest this legacy be reworked to give -60s cooldown to Fight On (As its primary), and then +% Heal (As it's Secondary), at rank 83, capping out at -60s Cooldown and +2.5% morale heal on each heal tick?

    --

    I feel that with the above changes, the Blue Line Champion would retain it's niche uniqueness whilst also being sturdy enough, with sufficient threat generation and aggro management to be taken seriously as a Tank in a content, feedback / other suggestions are welcomed.

    (And just before anyone says what I think they're going to, yes, I know, Blue-Line is underused and not as popular as Red/Yellow, Champions are main DPS classes and that is where the focus should be in any upcoming rework or balance changes, but I am also allowed to advocate for changes to the line that I enjoy most and will do so when the time comes).

    --

    EDIT:

    - Allow Blue Champions to block whilst dual weilding instead of only with a 2-Handed weapon.
    - Please rework the skill "Fear Nothing" to remove at least 2, preferably 3 removable effects instead of the 1 it currently sits at.
    Last edited by Hephburz-2; Feb 14 2020 at 04:37 AM.

  2. #2
    Just my 2c from the perspective on primary DPS champ, that occasionally enjoys tanking (i do maintain my tanking LIs and carry tanky gear in my bags always).

    Very well written, loads of great suggestions, thank you for this. Would really like if blue traits have more impact. Currently my tanking build forgoes most blue traits in favor of more AoE damage and threat from yellow. This works great in t1 and easier t2/3 content, but the compromise with survivability is too great that I avoid usisng that build for more 'scary' content.

    I like the 1min CD on true heroics, but it should be limited to Blue only, or it may become too strong a skill for yellow/red with its respective effects. An alternative to that could be if Horn of Champions is added a taunt component as it appears was sometime ago the intention.

    Another positive change would be the ability to block while dual-wielding in blue. DW chanking is a thing, but i feel the lack of blocking to it makes it too extravagant option for most. The ability to block will add a bit of more variety and add a bit of safety via the more parries DW gets anyways. Just I'm not 100% sure if such a change woudn't make 2H tanking the clearly worse option.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothrir View Post
    Another positive change would be the ability to block while dual-wielding in blue. DW chanking is a thing, but i feel the lack of blocking to it makes it too extravagant option for most. The ability to block will add a bit of more variety and add a bit of safety via the more parries DW gets anyways. Just I'm not 100% sure if such a change woudn't make 2H tanking the clearly worse option.
    That's actually a good suggestion, forgot to include this myself.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    ...
    Definitely you know the line well and those changes that you mention will make big difference even if they do half of them.

    My problem and my insecure with the line is the agro management and survivability in tough situations.For agro management the changes you suggest will work but for survivability except all those that you mention we need also the heavy shield so we can feel more secure.
    Defensive stats advance too much when you equip the shield, i see the difference on my guardian with and with out and gives you a feeling of secure.So in my opinion heavy shield is a must unless they put some passive buffs to the line that will kinda cover it but also those need to upscale well every level cap and champions already have many issues in up scaling.

    Like you already mention above Red and Yellow lines are priority at the moment cause the new raid is around the corner but no one stops anyone for express his opinion and what he things that will make the class even better and thank you for that and for your time.
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  5. #5
    Another very needed change just remembered - rework No Fear - reduce CD to 40s (10s with legacy) and add at least a 2nd removable effect (3 would be best). It's easily the worst debuff removal skill out there.

  6. #6
    I guess this means you also support blue line captains being main healers, then.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    I guess this means you also support blue line captains being main healers, then.
    Nice attempt at thread derailment - and, tbh if you wanna make a thread for blue captain rework I'm not going to stop you, and nor have I ever tried to.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Nice attempt at thread derailment - and, tbh if you wanna make a thread for blue captain rework I'm not going to stop you, and nor have I ever tried to.
    Merely pointing out an apparent point of contradiction in your class philosophy; either "captains aren't healers", in which case, "champions aren't tanks", or "champion tanks should be viable", in which case "captain healers should be viable". And no, you have never stopped me from making a thread, nor can you, but you have said that captains should not be as good at healing as other healing classes.

    It was just poking fun, not an "attempt at thread derailment". I would happily see blue champions be fully functional tanks. I might even play it myself, if that were the case. I think it has great potential to be a very fun tanking class to play, and it would be nice for that potential to be realised. One thing I would like to see added, is the cool down reduction on Sudden Defence from using Wild Attack (or other abilities), as it was 85, so as to encourage active gameplay. Obviously, Sudden Defence's base cool down would have to be increased.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    Merely pointing out an apparent point of contradiction in your class philosophy; either "captains aren't healers", in which case, "champions aren't tanks", or "champion tanks should be viable", in which case "captain healers should be viable". And no, you have never stopped me from making a thread, nor can you, but you have said that captains should not be as good at healing as other healing classes.
    I don't believe I'm asking for Champions to as good as any other tanking class? The changes I'm suggesting are band-aids at best to increase survivability + threat - if I wanted to make them as good as guardians or captain tanks I would have asked for 10x more than what I have suggested. Captain Healers are viable, they're not as good as other healing classes but still viable (which I don't think there is anything wrong with), which is the position I'd like to see Champion in, considering they aren't even classified as playable atm.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    I don't believe I'm asking for Champions to as good as any other tanking class? The changes I'm suggesting are band-aids at best to increase survivability + threat - if I wanted to make them as good as guardians or captain tanks I would have asked for 10x more than what I have suggested. Captain Healers are viable, they're not as good as other healing classes but still viable (which I don't think there is anything wrong with), which is the position I'd like to see Champion in, considering they aren't even classified as playable atm.
    Well then, I hope that isn't too much to ask for from the developers. It seems like they are under the impression that champions already got their fair share of class changes, and that they are now done overhauling classes. At least, based on their apparent silence on this issue.

    Also, I would like to say with regards to

    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    - We have a legacy that increases Fight On Critical rating, could I suggest this legacy be reworked to give -60s cooldown to Fight On (As its primary), and then +% Heal (As it's Secondary), at rank 83, capping out at -60s Cooldown and +2.5% morale heal on each heal tick?
    that Fight On is a terrible excuse for a defensive cool down, considering it is the only kind of defensive cool down available to both DPS lines as well. I believe something should be done to make this an actual emergency cool down, rather than some weak HoT effect. Perhaps the legacy could be made to provide incoming damage reduction while Fight On is up. What you're suggesting would certainly make it a valuable heal in terms of HPS, but it would have no real value for the DPS specs, because it would still not save them in most situations.

    Either way, I think it needs more attention than just an adjustment to the legacy. Also, I definitely would ask for champions to be as good as other tanking classes. But that's just me.
    Last edited by Aeviternus; Feb 14 2020 at 10:32 AM.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
    Also known as Giliodor

  11. #11
    I have nothing to say about blue Champ in particular, but I just wanted to add my support to getting as many specs viable as possible

    The only thing I'm a little worried about is making the dps specs on non dps classes viable, because I would be a nightmare to make all the 13ish dps specs somewhat balanced
    But as far as tanks, healers and support specs are concerned..there's only between 4-6 of each, so I'd hope all would be useful in some way

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    I have nothing to say about blue Champ in particular, but I just wanted to add my support to getting as many specs viable as possible
    Thank you for your support Chris and i appreciate all this time that you have supported champions to get some attention.

    Of course its good to have all 3 lines viable and Champion is my only main.So it is in my interest for every spec to be in good condition and viable.I dont play anything else in raids except Rk sometimes and hunter if needed and that only if the raid is not melee friendly or if i have locks with champion.

    At the moment Champions are in a situation that need a hot fix before new raid released so they can keep up on dps with other classes and not loose the raid.In my opinion if they try to do fast a hot fix before the raid released then its completely waste of time to deal with Blue line even for a bit instead of fixing more things to other two more useful for the raid lines.Just couple of changes at blue are not going to make the line viable nether for raid or 6 mans at high tiers.

    If they dont do a fast hot fix before the raid and do an in depth class balance pass some months later then yes they should work for Blue and need more changes than those but at the moment to waste time for Blue line its not good idea.
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  13. #13
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    Its a waste of development time to fix something that has literally not used and in complete decline for years. Its most likely that it willscale properly in 8 months time.Would be better if they fixed red lines damage and made it so they can do their main role properly without having to be down the pecking order behind anything but an RK in fire.Much better use of time and resources, instead of blue line which has been ignored for so long.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinlu View Post
    Its a waste of development time to fix something that has literally not used and in complete decline for years. Its most likely that it willscale properly in 8 months time.Would be better if they fixed red lines damage and made it so they can do their main role properly without having to be down the pecking order behind anything but an RK in fire.Much better use of time and resources, instead of blue line which has been ignored for so long.
    You're entitled to your opinion.

    Disagree completely. But sure.

  15. #15
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    Maybe you do, but think of it this way.It would be like making guardian ( a main tank) a dpser right? Some games do it sure, but lotro dosent manage to do it effectively.Better to just have one purpose/role to be working correctly, and champs is damage (AOE and ST), And St is lacking in damage at the moment.


    EDIT: I'd rather champs ST be brought up by 30k up to warden standards (which i think is around 120-125k currently), would make one role viable instead of half the role from an aoe perspective and not ST.
    Last edited by pinlu; Feb 16 2020 at 11:19 AM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinlu View Post
    Maybe you do, but think of it this way.It would be like making guardian ( a main tank) a dpser right? Some games do it sure, but lotro dosent manage to do it effectively. Better to just have one purpose/role to be working correctly, and champs is damage (AOE and ST), And St is lacking in damage at the moment.

    EDIT: I'd rather champs ST be brought up by 30k up to warden standards (which i think is around 120-125k currently), would make one role viable instead of half the role from an aoe perspective and not ST.
    Never asked them to be made into main tanks, simply asked for viability - especially considering a lot of the changes I suggested were cooldown reductions, and tbh, lately they've done well with 'some' classes with making multiple specs viable like the RK changes, like the Bear changes, I should probably also include Burglar onto the list of recent classes that have had multiple specs made viable, but they broke that .
    Last edited by Hephburz-2; Feb 17 2020 at 12:44 AM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    I should probably also include Burglar onto the list of recent classes that have had multiple specs made viable, but they broke that .
    hehe i was going to mention that.I agree that every spec should be viable but in their case they made a mostly supporting class the most powerful dps class and they lost their identity.I dont want them to do the same with champions and instead of a dps class make as best tanking.When they decide to deal with the line those changes that you mention plus couple more would be enough so blue line champions would feel more secure to use the line in 3 and even on 6 mans instances but thats it.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    hehe i was going to mention that.I agree that every spec should be viable but in their case they made a mostly supporting class the most powerful dps class and they lost their identity.I dont want them to do the same with champions and instead of a dps class make as best tanking.When they decide to deal with the line those changes that you mention plus couple more would be enough so blue line champions would feel more secure to use the line in 3 and even on 6 mans instances but thats it.

    Exactly my point,id rather they fix/break damage (the MAIN ROLE , rather than breaking blue line. Just bring back shields and as you say reduce cds is one way, but it should not be done until the main role has been updated to be competitive with other classes on a single target scale

  19. #19
    Some very nice suggestions here. As champ player who would like to chank from time to time, I'll add my two cents.

    Masochism: When reworking, consider changing this to a toggle. Reasons:
    - In some fights, boss adds need to survive (because of hardmode, or boss gets buffed when add is killed). Our reflect still damages them in these situations.
    - When an enemy has a reflect buff too, our reflected damage seems to get reflected right back, and hits us (no, isn't reflected for a third time).
    So being able to turn of Masochism in certain situations would be nice. It could be active by default.

    Bracing Attack:
    Should be changed to a % based heal across all lines. I agree the legacy needs a rework in this case (BA would become too strong otherwise).

    Fear Nothing:
    Maybe this could be implemented as a trait? Invest one skill points to get +1 effect removed and cooldown reduced by 3 seconds. Up to 2 points can be invested for +2 removal and -6s cooldown. Put it at the start of the skill tree, so red/yellow champs can grab it for their builds.

    Fight through the Pain & Unstable
    Main issue for me is that equipping tanky stuff reduces your chance to be critically hit. BPE and resist are rolled before the "crit or not" check. So we have:
    More tanky equip --> more BPE & more resist (which is good) --> less incoming crits (which is also good) --> less procs of Fight through the Pain & Unstable
    So these blue line traits are designed in a way that we nerf them by donning tanky equipment. This is clearly bad design.
    I disagree though they should be activated by parries, since that would mean they are never triggered by tactical attacks. Maybe put them to "when hit, 20% chance to add a stack". (With the "when hit" part checked before the BPE/Resist roll.) Yupp, still RNG, but if you parry an attack or not is RNG too.

    Dire Need
    Just make it a % based heal and be done with it. Change Improved Dire Need Trait and legacy to add a few more % instead of increasing power cost. So we end with a heal that is weaker than Guard's Warrior's Heart, but has a lower cooldown.

 

 

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