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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    And what does it matter it being good dps, warden is intended to have a tank main role since its design, it's good now it has a dps build but I'd gladly sacrifice my dps build entirely to get a decent tank role back.
    Don't get me wrong, if this game's trait lines actually represented real, capable roles, then I'd be all for this change, Wardens and Champs should be capable of tanking on par with Captains and Guardians.
    However, SSG has this....frame of mind that's basically made redundant with trait trees, where trait trees aren't roles and as a result, it's a joke to balance everything.

    In conclusion, making trait trees actual roles and ironing out some "What the hell?" lines (Blue LM for example) would be a lot better than whatever limbo we're in now.
    Only difference between various classes then should be playstyle, not just what's strong.

  2. #27
    Join Date
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    328
    Quote Originally Posted by zaboch View Post
    Don't get me wrong, if this game's trait lines actually represented real, capable roles, then I'd be all for this change, Wardens and Champs should be capable of tanking on par with Captains and Guardians.
    And that's just plain wrong.

    Guardians & Wardens should be on the same level. Then Captains, Champions, and Beornings.
    The two tank classes a bit better than the rest.
    Zohal
    85 Warden - Leader of The Last Alliance - Anor
    Challenger of the Rift - Challenger of Helegrod

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Zohal View Post
    And that's just plain wrong.

    Guardians & Wardens should be on the same level. Then Captains, Champions, and Beornings.
    The two tank classes a bit better than the rest.
    What's the point of trait trees then?

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by zaboch View Post
    What's the point of trait trees then?
    Honestly the trait trees were a mistake. It was either a "novel" design push by Warner Brothers and/or a decision to become more like WoW, but the simplification of the classes and threat control was a massive downgrade.

    But speaking of the present. You are either a tank or a DPS full stop. You are either playing your role to the fullest gearwise or trying a weird master-of-none hybrid combo that will be locked in combat and subpar/nonfunctional at both roles. There's none of the "I transform from #1 4k DPS Monster to raid tank" that was possible on the fly back in Rise of Isengard.

    I invested time/money into my Warden character, developed a backstory integrated her role as a tank, her race and her weapons. I did my research at the time of her creation over a decade ago so that she wouldn't be hampered at endgame as a tank. Got acclimated to tanking T2C 6-man/12-man raids over 4-6 years and find her dumpster-tiered at the role I always had a place in. Honestly I feel betrayed.
    Last edited by WhimsicalPacifist; Mar 25 2020 at 02:34 PM.

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by WhimsicalPacifist View Post
    Honestly the trait trees were a mistake. It was either a "novel" design push by Warner Brothers and/or a decision to become more like WoW, but the simplification of the classes and threat control was a massive downgrade.
    I guess people fail to realize how much in common trait trees and older trait page set-ups had.
    They both rewarded you slotting in more stuff from their respective pages, similar as trait trees do now, except you're locked to an initial set of specialization perks.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhimsicalPacifist View Post
    But speaking of the present. You are either a tank or a DPS full stop. You are either playing your role to the fullest gearwise or trying a weird master-of-none hybrid combo that will be locked in combat and subpar/nonfunctional at both roles. There's none of the "I transform from #1 4k DPS Monster to raid tank" that was possible on the fly back in Rise of Isengard.
    Nobody is talking about hybrid builds here, or hybrid classes. What you pick from a trait tree is your role when you first select a tree. This hybrid non-sense is a blind alley, don't go there.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhimsicalPacifist View Post
    I invested time/money into my Warden character, developed a backstory integrated her role as a tank, her race and her weapons. I did my research at the time of her creation over a decade ago so that she wouldn't be hampered at endgame as a tank. Got acclimated to tanking T2C 6-man/12-man raids over 4-6 years and find her dumpster-tiered at the role I always had a place in. Honestly I feel betrayed.
    Fascinating.

    Onto the point, trait trees should be roles, all trait trees should be able to perform at the end-game. Case & point.

    Ye long gone days of Chanks and Keen Blade Guardians...

  6. #31
    Fascinating.

    Onto the point, trait trees should be roles, all trait trees should be able to perform at the end-game. Case & point.

    Ye long gone days of Chanks and Keen Blade Guardians...[/QUOTE]

    In their place the Captain that age old master of none... well self-healing tank in heavy armor. I'd see steps towards making Wardens viable as:

    1. Should Tanks be allowed to be one-shot regularly? Ie should healers have to keep tanks topped off 100% of the time or should a strain of resources over time be the concern?
    1a. If the former, Warden tanks are forever screwed. You will have healers constantly bubbling and focusing on the tank instead of the rest of the party. Wardens will be a liability full stop. You balance around Guardian mitigations, but Wardens eat at least 25% more damage to begin with.
    1b. Strain of resources on the healer: power and cooldowns. This is something that Wardens could fill in with their own healing and is actually in line with the historical role of the class.

    Following that threat management. If you are healing you aren't generating as much threat.
    1. Either healing threat is upped drastically or
    2. Bring back threat leeches.

    Lastly, something that has always struck me as somewhat been rather odd. Why does Heavy Armor loaded with conductive metal allow a higher tactical mitigation cap against lightning than Medium Armor? Bring that down, rebalance against those mitigations and suddenly you have Wardens and Guardians on much closer parity.

  7. #32
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    Just a correction that bolsters most of your points: Guardians have more than 3 oh-poop cooldowns:
    • Juggernaut: 3 minute cooldown to block everything + immunity to combat states for 15s. Because of Bolstering Blocks, each block will heal you.
    • Guardian's Pledge: with legacies, 2 minute cooldown for +30% b/p/e for 15s. Because of Bolstering Blocks, each block will heal you.
    • Warrior's Heart: with legacies, 2 minute cooldown that heals nearly your entire morale pool...after increasing your max morale by something like 40% for the next 10s
    • Litany of Defiance: 1.5 minute cooldown to double your Fortification buff (+10% becomes +20%), intercept 50% of your allies's damage taken, and debuff your enemies' attack duration by 20%, all for 15s
    • Thrill of Danger: 1 minute cooldown (though I've seen set bonuses that reduce it to 40s) to heal 2.5% of your max morale each time you get hit for 10s

    So I count 5. Yes, Thrill of Danger/Bring on the Pain is in yellow, but it's been standard guardian practice for awhile now to trait blue just far enough to get Juggernaut, then spend the rest hybridizing in yellow to get juicy traits/skills like Numbed Senses (Ignore the Pain removes 4 effects), War-chant (high threat AoE that debuffs damage), the aforementioned Thrill of Danger/Bring on the Pain, and Redirect/Vicious Rebuttal, which greatly reduces TPS by absorbing/reflecting 70% (total) of incoming damage and having a 33% uptime.

    IMO, Warden needs more percentage-based mitigation buffs (e.g. from the Impressive Flourish gambit line), percentage-based or extremely high rating increases for avoidance buffs (War-cry line, Persevere line, Wall of Steel, Shield Mastery), and an improved Battle Memory like others have discussed for quick Reversals and Boots/Walls of Steel. Morale-taps should be properly scaled for high levels (they feel fine at L86, but 44 levels is a big gap), and Attack Duration should be buffed, either directly or through Adroit Manoeuvre (currently only -4% and not useful at all). First Aid should remove more effects or have a lower cooldown and power cost. Even if most or all of these changes were exclusive to blue Wardens, it would still be effective in increasing the Warden's tanking viability.

    Itemization is also a problem. In addition to putting the right secondary stats on Agility gear, there's also a big problem where capping avoidances is a pipe dream for all classes because a single essence is only about 2% of the rating required to cap (according to Lotro-Wiki), and that's ignoring the extra rating required for the important instances. In contrast, a single Tact Mit essence contains about 3.5% of the cap rating, and you get a significant bonus from armor and virtues.

    I'm curious to hear how Update 25.4 changed this conversation. Among other things, they made the following changes:
    • Several classes have had their Stun removal skill cooldowns reduced to 60 seconds. Trait and item effects on these cooldowns for the affected skills have also been adjusted.
    • The balance of defensive stats versus vitality has been tweaked to encourage more variety in itemization in defensive builds.
    • Partial Avoidances are now less expensive to cap.
    • The itemization budget for avoidances and incoming healing has been slightly increased.
    • The itemization budget for tactical mitigation has been slightly reduced.
    • The itemization budget for Vitality and health has been reduced by about 5%.
    • A bug has been fixed that reduced certain ratings in the later game.
    • ...
    • Warden: Never Surrender now grants its proper 5% mitigation bonus instead of 50%.

    I can't tell what they mean by the itemization budgets being increased/decreased. Which one means it's easier to bump up the given stat, and which one means it's harder? And did Steadfast get its cooldown reduced?
    “Merely having an open mind is nothing. The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid.” - G.K. Chesterton
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  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthil View Post
    Just a correction that bolsters most of your points: Guardians have more than 3 oh-poop cooldowns:
    • Juggernaut: 3 minute cooldown to block everything + immunity to combat states for 15s. Because of Bolstering Blocks, each block will heal you.
    • Guardian's Pledge: with legacies, 2 minute cooldown for +30% b/p/e for 15s. Because of Bolstering Blocks, each block will heal you.
    • Warrior's Heart: with legacies, 2 minute cooldown that heals nearly your entire morale pool...after increasing your max morale by something like 40% for the next 10s
    • Litany of Defiance: 1.5 minute cooldown to double your Fortification buff (+10% becomes +20%), intercept 50% of your allies's damage taken, and debuff your enemies' attack duration by 20%, all for 15s
    • Thrill of Danger: 1 minute cooldown (though I've seen set bonuses that reduce it to 40s) to heal 2.5% of your max morale each time you get hit for 10s

    So I count 5. Yes, Thrill of Danger/Bring on the Pain is in yellow, but it's been standard guardian practice for awhile now to trait blue just far enough to get Juggernaut, then spend the rest hybridizing in yellow to get juicy traits/skills like Numbed Senses (Ignore the Pain removes 4 effects), War-chant (high threat AoE that debuffs damage), the aforementioned Thrill of Danger/Bring on the Pain, and Redirect/Vicious Rebuttal, which greatly reduces TPS by absorbing/reflecting 70% (total) of incoming damage and having a 33% uptime.

    IMO, Warden needs more percentage-based mitigation buffs (e.g. from the Impressive Flourish gambit line), percentage-based or extremely high rating increases for avoidance buffs (War-cry line, Persevere line, Wall of Steel, Shield Mastery), and an improved Battle Memory like others have discussed for quick Reversals and Boots/Walls of Steel. Morale-taps should be properly scaled for high levels (they feel fine at L86, but 44 levels is a big gap), and Attack Duration should be buffed, either directly or through Adroit Manoeuvre (currently only -4% and not useful at all). First Aid should remove more effects or have a lower cooldown and power cost. Even if most or all of these changes were exclusive to blue Wardens, it would still be effective in increasing the Warden's tanking viability.

    Itemization is also a problem. In addition to putting the right secondary stats on Agility gear, there's also a big problem where capping avoidances is a pipe dream for all classes because a single essence is only about 2% of the rating required to cap (according to Lotro-Wiki), and that's ignoring the extra rating required for the important instances. In contrast, a single Tact Mit essence contains about 3.5% of the cap rating, and you get a significant bonus from armor and virtues.

    I'm curious to hear how Update 25.4 changed this conversation. Among other things, they made the following changes:
    • Several classes have had their Stun removal skill cooldowns reduced to 60 seconds. Trait and item effects on these cooldowns for the affected skills have also been adjusted.
    • The balance of defensive stats versus vitality has been tweaked to encourage more variety in itemization in defensive builds.
    • Partial Avoidances are now less expensive to cap.
    • The itemization budget for avoidances and incoming healing has been slightly increased.
    • The itemization budget for tactical mitigation has been slightly reduced.
    • The itemization budget for Vitality and health has been reduced by about 5%.
    • A bug has been fixed that reduced certain ratings in the later game.
    • ...
    • Warden: Never Surrender now grants its proper 5% mitigation bonus instead of 50%.

    I can't tell what they mean by the itemization budgets being increased/decreased. Which one means it's easier to bump up the given stat, and which one means it's harder? And did Steadfast get its cooldown reduced?
    First: Yeah, guardian got less passive inc damage and also way more and better cooldowns than warden. Warden's Never surrender was only good for avoiding oneshots and I don't know if it's bugged or intended that after U25.4 it no longer prevents oneshots, if you are 200k morale left on tank with NS active and you get a 201k hit, you die and NS does nothing and expires.

    Second: Improved way to interrupt while tanking reliably is needed, at the moment guardians can CJ, Stun, interrupt and remove corruptions extremely good while tanking without sacrificing anything, on warden is nearly impossible to interrupt while doing something else and same for corruptions. About mitigation buffs I think mits are on the right spot atm (our current cap with all buffs active is 65%) I would un-nerf the tactical mit rating from gambits but that's something they're just not gonna do. I'd give better avoidances on gambits, shield mastery should give % avoid instead of rating or a massive increase of said rating. Heals should be also scaled up, at the moment we barely have any crit while tanking and we have 0% outgoing healing so the heal potency is terrible. I'd increase morale taps massively (2x current resolution and 5x current EoB and Fierce resolve). And a bit adjustment in shield gambit heals maybe, could add an expiration heal on shield gambits? or a slight heal boost.
    And obviously a decent emergency cooldown. NS cooldown should be reduced further in blue line, and then add 1 more cooldown which is worth it (for the free peoples is totally useless now: 60k mit rating for fellowship for 15s with 1 min 30s cd as a capstone skill for a tank is not bad, it's not a joke, it's a mock, it's like laughing at warden class while pointing with your finger).

    And last:
    Itemization budgets are basically the same, you still need over 10 essences just to cap one of the avoidances and still makes a little impact in survivability. Steadfast got cd 1 minute now, which is more reasonable but still too long for a tank class. Incoming healing require over 10 essences to have a minor impact. New stat budgets translate into: We're gonna nerf your vit and tact mit so people slot useless stats in essences that are fundamentally broken and useless for a tank so in the end you're just gonna lose either tact mit or vit to compensate for the loss of stats as they are the only useful stats for tanks.

  9. #34
    Personally, I'd prefer it if the caps for Physical & Tactical Mitigation were a lot lower baseline for all classes. And we were not buffed to reach the current mit caps.

    Right now theres too much incoming damage (have you looked at some of the base damage for enemy skills? Its crazy strong) and its because our mitigations are too strong.

    A tank with 400k morale and 60% mitigations has an effective hp pool of 1,000,000 hp. Contrast that to a dps with 200k hp and 20% mits who has an effective hp of 250,000.

    Thats a crazy difference, and as armour is 1:1 for physical mit and 1:4 for tactical mit it adversely affect wardens who either cannot stack as much vitality while capping mits, or cannot cap mits while stacking vitality.



    Skills which are threatening to a tank with 1million effective morale are absolutely devastating to other tanks with lower mits (such as wardens). Boss damage has scaled too far because our defenses across all tank classes have scaled too far. If we could reduce the possible spread of effective hp across tanks and dps we'd (as wardens & as players) be in a much better state relative to the other classes. And if mits were capped significantly lower then we might actually spend some essences in the passive mitigation we call B/P/E. As well as getting more tanks some more finesse.


    And yeah, never surrender ain't working right.

  10. #35
    I don't need better avoidance, it is useable only for trash mob tanking, significant attacks from bosses bypass avoidance. I need higher damage reduction in boss fights, panic button, higher self heals, including higher burst heal to cover spike damage hits, much higher morale-tap heals and better utility (faster interrupts, in-combat run speed buff, attack duration buff, better protection for fellowship, bug fixing and increased magnitude of assailment gambit debuffs). I want to my attacks be less resisted, I have 25% finesse and still my attacks are resisted with very high rate. Most blue trait line set bonuses and traits are very weak, same for tanking legacies on LIs. U25.4 stat redistribution broke more things for warden, now I am overcaping physical mitigation by few hundred thousand, so no benefit from higher physical mitigation rating buffs and armour. Gambits with tactical mitigation buffs have been nerfed and my morale is lower. Never Surrender bug was final nail in the coffin and it isn't even listed in known issues and still no info from developers when it will be fixed.
    I want to be viable tank option for raids, but this is 3rd raid in row, where warden tank is neglected.


    • Warden: Never Surrender now grants its proper 5% mitigation bonus instead of 50%.

    This quote from U25.4 release notes should be deleted, NS never granted 50% mitigation bonus and even now NS does not grant 5% mitigation bonus.
    Last edited by Krindel; Mar 27 2020 at 01:42 PM.
    Laurelin: Kinship - Outcasts
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  11. #36
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    Yea, what Krindel said...
    Ujest - 130 Lore-master, Opun Tia - 105 Warden, Veneur - 75 Hunter, Cneasai - 61 Minstrel, plus alts and mules
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  12. #37
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    431
    Quote Originally Posted by Krindel View Post
    • Warden: Never Surrender now grants its proper 5% mitigation bonus instead of 50%.

    This quote from U25.4 release notes should be deleted, NS never granted 50% mitigation bonus and even now NS does not grant 5% mitigation bonus.
    This is a typo in the Release Notes. It is referring to the raid armor set bonus for blue line, NOT the regular NS skill. But yeah, NS is definitely broken right now and allowing one-shots.
    CAANWICK - Wardenist - Make Wardens Great Again!!! / CAANJOB - The Ettenmoors' worst Burglar / CAANJAAL - Hunter
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