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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by ydoc View Post
    Sorry if I'm a little behind of the most recent posts but I feel the need to reinforce these opinions.



    As Hephburz-2 and Ethrildar stated, 20 seconds of SoD duration is near invaluable, even when compared to LS imo. Even though the DR does not stack with any existing DR, it is still arguably the best defensive CD for the Captain, if not in game. Since the ability to cast on self was added.



    A dead Captain is just as good as not having one

    Yes DPS is too important to lose, but your primary role in Redline is to buff everyone else, and a dead Captain is just as useful as a lack of one. In Red you lack any form of DR outside of the tiny amount that To Arms gives and Fighting Withdrawal, neither of which even combined are enough to save you in the event of you taking damage without being watched over. Where as To Arms combined with the legacy gives you a grand total of 22% DR (on top of your Mits) while Battle-hardened, which is enough to buy time for the Healer to swap to you to give you heals or the Tank to grab a stray add or whatever is the case. Or god forbid you weren't paying attention and were standing in the fire.

    Imo as a Captain your damage really does not matter, if you can keep your buffs up, stay proactive and alive, the additional damage that your fellowship will be doing due to your buffs will greatly outweigh anything the Captain itself can contribute. But even saying this, everything matters, which is why losing a tiny amount of DPS to potentially not have to burn a Rez to stay alive if something goes wrong in a fight is well worth it mine and most other peoples books.



    Personally I feel as there is no set rotation, but the baseline is almost always going to be:

    Battleshout/In Time of Need/BattleTonic > Sure Strike > Pressing Attack > Inspire(Skip this after the first rotation until third stack of Gallant Display) > Sure Strike > Gallant Display > Sure Strike > Blade of Elendil
    (Only use Blade of Elendil when BattleShout is off CD/almost off so that you can refresh the BattleHardened State from Pressing Attack)
    Beyond that every fight is going to be different and calls for personal judgement on when to use actives, cries, heals and taunts within this base rotation.



    Basically this, maintain Battlehardened as much as possible, but iirc the 20% DR from the next hit only applies to basic attacks unless this was fixed



    I agree with Ethrildar about Heph and would like to extend a +2 to the both of them for actually knowing what they're talking about.
    Whether 20 seconds is better, or 10 seconds with healing depends on the situation. You cannot evaluate something based on a number, it must be evaluated by purpose and context. Death, as a rate, is a simple factor, when TPS exceeds HPS. If my TPS is higher than my HPS then 10 extra seconds it's going to save me. HPS saves, duration prolongs. This is where having a second banner comes into play through SOD healing. Pop LS, when the heal is going to go off use banner and or SoD to send you up to full. Or if you don't need LS, but need to get your health up quick, Banner and or SoD for self healing. It gives you so much more versatility than only having an increased duration on TPS. When the HPS can't keep up with the TPS, it gives you the option to boost the HPS coming from both you and the healer before you actually die and perhaps the healer doesn't blow all his cooldowns to save you since you have the potential to nearly double his standard HPS. Or perhaps he already blowed his cooldowns on someone else, now he has to fill all that morale on the tank through only his base heals, but thankfully you brought SoD and pop it and a banner. Or perhaps you and someone else are about to die, now he can move on to the other person in 10seconds rather than 20 seconds. Personal HPS is a huge factor in captain tanking as well which receives great benefit from having 2 "banners". I think it's more crazy to only have the non imbued one merely because the duration is longer without thinking about system in which this cooldown is employed.

    I hope you will read over the thread in which what I mean by primary is defined and how buffs are irrelevant to this particular question. Your dps, that is if you choose to provide it, is more dps than oathbreakers over the Cooldown. This is because oathbreakers is not dps but burst. To put that into perspective, way back when OB was 5min, it was less dps than IDOME. Not to mention if you aren't doing good dps you are wasting half of your own to arms buff. I can get 67k on a dummy without OB and poor ratings, Zaheer is pulling close to 100k on beta with good ratings and tuned out swappies. People will chose one class over another for a 10k dps difference, so to think your own dps doesn't matter to the group is mistaken. What matters in regards to the captain is what the group needs, and that is either more "added" dps or more healing. The idea that there is a meaningful difference between group damage buffs and personal dps is illusory. It is merely 1 thing, "added dps", and to lack the other is to provide half of your intended purpose. Look at the description for captains. "In Fellowships, a Captain supports his or her allies with healing and buffs, while still dealing respectable damage." It would simply be poor management for a group leader to say - "Lets get this class instead, it does 10k more dps. Oh and cappy, give me OB but just forget about that ~50k sustained dps you could also add to the total group dps." Just for perspective 3 RK's at 150k dps using oath breakers will give you 17.5k* added dps over the course of the cooldown for oathbreakers. So if all we did is add 17.5k dps to the group by choosing red line for oathbreakers they would have been better off by grabbing another RK for another 150k sustained dps with DNF. To make your slot worthwhile, in regards to total dps added, the total of your personal and added group dps needs to exceed the dps of a dps class, and OB from red line doesn't even approach achieving that. The total that both must match is 150k dps +/- needed healing occurrences to fulfill the slot.

    *: {150k *3 = 450,000 dps.} {450,000 * .35 = 157,500 added damage per second} {157,500 over 20 seconds = 3,150,000 added damage} {over cool down duration 3,150,000 / 180seconds = 17,500k dps}
    Last edited by Armitas; Mar 03 2020 at 04:52 PM.
    .


  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    Whether 20 seconds is better, or 10 seconds with healing depends on the situation. You cannot evaluate something based on a number, it must be evaluated by purpose and context. Death, as a rate, is a simple factor, when TPS exceeds HPS. If my TPS is higher than my HPS then 10 extra seconds it's going to save me. HPS saves, duration prolongs. This is where having a second banner comes into play through SOD healing. Pop LS, when the heal is going to go off use banner and or SoD to send you up to full. Or if you don't need LS, but need to get your health up quick, Banner and or SoD for self healing. It gives you so much more versatility than only having an increased duration on TPS. When the HPS can't keep up with the TPS, it gives you the option to boost the HPS coming from both you and the healer before you actually die and perhaps the healer doesn't blow all his cooldowns to save you since you have the potential to nearly double his standard HPS. Or perhaps he already blowed his cooldowns on someone else, now he has to fill all that morale on the tank through only his base heals, but thankfully you brought SoD and pop it and a banner. Or perhaps you and someone else are about to die, now he can move on to the other person in 10seconds rather than 20 seconds. Personal HPS is a huge factor in captain tanking as well which receives great benefit from having 2 "banners". I think it's more crazy to only have the non imbued one merely because the duration is longer without thinking about system in which this cooldown is employed.
    Firstly, the 20 second duration is better in almost every single situation and regard, there is only two that they've used as of yet(Raid is coming tomorrow so who knows) that would even question not using the +10s legacy. That would be fights with massive amounts of incoming healing reduction, like the 4th boss in Throne for example, and things that bypass DR(Can't think of any off the top of my head).

    Think of this way, you're taking 62(3?)% reduced damage with capped mits and Bannerguard, more depending on group makeup, with an additional 75% damage reduction from SoD, you are taking so little damage from everything while its up. That 35% or whatever it is increase incoming healing is absolutely wasted. I've never been in a situation where my healer could not cap me or anyone else off within seconds with SoD up(Without the Inc Healing Legacy). So not only is entirely wasted, but its a wasted opportunity to use a much better legacy.

    The main use of SoD its to anticipate and prevent damage, not fixing a mess up, but in the event of a mess up your healer(s) should EASILY be able to heal through any damage you're taking and still get you to Cap before even 10 seconds are up, then giving your healer time to heal someone else without worrying about the SoD'd target for atleast 10 seconds. In this same circumstance where you used it early and negated majority of damage, your healer(s) will be able to HoT you up and focus their attention on another tank or DPS standing in the fire and not have to worry about you nearly at all. This is useful in pretty much every fight, instance, or otherwise.


    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    I hope you will read over the thread in which what I mean by primary is defined and how buffs are irrelevant to this particular question. Your dps, that is if you choose to provide it, is more dps than oathbreakers over the Cooldown. This is because oathbreakers is not dps but burst. To put that into perspective, way back when OB was 5min, it was less dps than IDOME. Not to mention if you aren't doing good dps you are wasting half of your own to arms buff. I can get 67k on a dummy without OB and poor ratings, Zaheer is pulling close to 100k on beta with good ratings and tuned out swappies. People will chose one class over another for a 10k dps difference, so to think your own dps doesn't matter to the group is mistaken. What matters in regards to the captain is what the group needs, and that is either more "added" dps or more healing. The idea that there is a meaningful difference between group damage buffs and personal dps is illusory. It is merely 1 thing, "added dps", and to lack the other is to provide half of your intended purpose. Look at the description for captains. "In Fellowships, a Captain supports his or her allies with healing and buffs, while still dealing respectable damage." It would simply be poor management for a group leader to say - "Lets get this class instead, it does 10k more dps. Oh and cappy, give me OB but just forget about that ~50k sustained dps you could also add to the total group dps." Just for perspective 3 RK's at 150k dps using oath breakers will give you 17.5k* added dps over the course of the cooldown for oathbreakers. So if all we did is add 17.5k dps to the group by choosing red line for oathbreakers they would have been better off by grabbing another RK for another 150k sustained dps with DNF. To make your slot worthwhile, in regards to total dps added, the total of your personal and added group dps needs to exceed the dps of a dps class, and OB from red line doesn't even approach achieving that. The total that both must match is 150k dps +/- needed healing occurrences to fulfill the slot.

    *: {150k *3 = 450,000 dps.} {450,000 * .35 = 157,500 added damage per second} {157,500 over 20 seconds = 3,150,000 added damage} {over cool down duration 3,150,000 / 180seconds = 17,500k dps}
    If you read over what I said, your dps does matter, but it is not your priority. If you place a bad banner, mistime a buff or an oathies, you are a net negative to the Fellow or raid. But that being said, also stop acting like Oathies is the only buff you have, don't forget about; Blade-Brother, To Arms, Call, Banner, Bannerguards, Marks, Crits, Relentless Attack/Focus, Master of War/Inspiriting Presence, Penetrating Cry, Rousing Cry, Muster Courage, also any and all healing you can do. Combining all of these buffs the additional damage everyone in your fellowship will do greatly outweighs anything you can do yourself and then some, making up for the utterly lackluster damage the Captain does even with the recent buffs, and his own buffs. Its the reason people take a Cappy instead of another dps.


    Just for perspective, lets just add up a some of the buffs the Captain can keep up, and can apply to everyone in the fellow, some even apply to everyone in the Raid, or even just everyone in general.
    +2% Inc from critting the target (10s duration, No CD)
    +10% Inc from Telling (Infinite Duration, 3s CD)
    +35% Inc Damage from Oathies (20s Duration, 3min CD)
    (+12% Permanent Inc Damage, +47% every 3mins)
    +2% Damage from Banner of War (Infinite Duration, 2(?)s CD)
    +5% Damage from Rousing Cry (1min Duration, 15s CD)
    +20%(12%~ if not Blade Brother) Damage from Call (20s Duration, 1min 30s CD)
    +25%(17%~ If not Blade Brother) Damage from To Arms (25s Duration, 1min CD)
    +30% Damage from Banner(30s Duration, 1min CD)
    (+7% near Permanent Damage Buff, +82% Damage buff every 1min~)
    +5% Crit Chance from Banner(5s Duration refresh upon attacking while in banner, 1min CD)
    +15% Attack Speed Buff from Penetrating Cry (1min Duration, 15s CD)


    Assuming a 12man raid, Fellow 1 is Tanks/Supports/Healer One and Fellow 2 is Four DPS, Red Cappy, and Healer 2

    Each person gets the buffs listed above, and if each person is pulling 100-150k DPS without them, with them the Fellow's damage easily increases by atleast double that of another 100-150k DPS. And this is all excluding the 50-100k the Captain itself can contribute, these buffs are more important than doing damage as a Captain. Maintaining them and making sure you stay alive so that you can maintain them is more important than doing damage. Hence why the Battle-Hardened State Legacy buff is important. Captains for a while have started building Tank even in Redline after capping their crit to max buffs. Again, a dead Captain is useless, and is worse than losing a single Hunter, or a single RK in some cases two. If the Captain is dead everyone's damage gets lowered. Unless the Captain gets a serious overhaul it will always remain this way.

    150k * 4 = 600k | 600k * 0.35 = 210k | 210k added damage per second | 210k over 20 seconds = 4,200,000 added damage | over cool down duration 4,200,000 / 180 seconds = 23,333.3... dps.
    150k * 4 = 600k | 600k * 0.12 = 72k | 72k added damage per second permanently over the course of the fight.
    Not sure what a LM or a Burg should be pulling, but I'd imagine it'd be about 50-100k like the Captain, so it should be roughly half of the number above (Factoring in three instead of two and the damage difference before buffs)
    Correct me if I'm wrong, Total of 95k DPS given strickly by THREE of the Cappy's buffs for 4 of the 9 other people in the raid that do damage. Factor in all the Crit, Mastery, and straight Damage bonuses and I think you'll get more than 150k, without the damage of the Captain.

    So back to one of the original questions.(TLDR)

    The Captain is the Jack of All Trades, Master of None.
    Yes, you should put all three Battle state buffs on your support weapon.
    Your damage is useful but not your priority, your healing is useful and helps alleviate work from the Healers, but is not your priority.
    Surviving saves your group a Rez, and your buffs stay active, which is your priority.


    Ps. too lazy to do all the math for 4/5 DPS + Cappy + 2 Tanks + 2/3 Supports damage total for all those buffs

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by ydoc View Post
    Firstly, the 20 second duration is better in almost every single situation and regard, there is only two that they've used as of yet(Raid is coming tomorrow so who knows) that would even question not using the +10s legacy. That would be fights with massive amounts of incoming healing reduction, like the 4th boss in Throne for example, and things that bypass DR(Can't think of any off the top of my head).

    Think of this way, you're taking 62(3?)% reduced damage with capped mits and Bannerguard, more depending on group makeup, with an additional 75% damage reduction from SoD, you are taking so little damage from everything while its up. That 35% or whatever it is increase incoming healing is absolutely wasted. I've never been in a situation where my healer could not cap me or anyone else off within seconds with SoD up(Without the Inc Healing Legacy). So not only is entirely wasted, but its a wasted opportunity to use a much better legacy.

    The main use of SoD its to anticipate and prevent damage, not fixing a mess up, but in the event of a mess up your healer(s) should EASILY be able to heal through any damage you're taking and still get you to Cap before even 10 seconds are up, then giving your healer time to heal someone else without worrying about the SoD'd target for atleast 10 seconds. In this same circumstance where you used it early and negated majority of damage, your healer(s) will be able to HoT you up and focus their attention on another tank or DPS standing in the fire and not have to worry about you nearly at all. This is useful in pretty much every fight, instance, or otherwise.




    If you read over what I said, your dps does matter, but it is not your priority. If you place a bad banner, mistime a buff or an oathies, you are a net negative to the Fellow or raid. But that being said, also stop acting like Oathies is the only buff you have, don't forget about; Blade-Brother, To Arms, Call, Banner, Bannerguards, Marks, Crits, Relentless Attack/Focus, Master of War/Inspiriting Presence, Penetrating Cry, Rousing Cry, Muster Courage, also any and all healing you can do. Combining all of these buffs the additional damage everyone in your fellowship will do greatly outweighs anything you can do yourself and then some, making up for the utterly lackluster damage the Captain does even with the recent buffs, and his own buffs. Its the reason people take a Cappy instead of another dps.


    Just for perspective, lets just add up a some of the buffs the Captain can keep up, and can apply to everyone in the fellow, some even apply to everyone in the Raid, or even just everyone in general.
    +2% Inc from critting the target (10s duration, No CD)
    +10% Inc from Telling (Infinite Duration, 3s CD)
    +35% Inc Damage from Oathies (20s Duration, 3min CD)
    (+12% Permanent Inc Damage, +47% every 3mins)
    +2% Damage from Banner of War (Infinite Duration, 2(?)s CD)
    +5% Damage from Rousing Cry (1min Duration, 15s CD)
    +20%(12%~ if not Blade Brother) Damage from Call (20s Duration, 1min 30s CD)
    +25%(17%~ If not Blade Brother) Damage from To Arms (25s Duration, 1min CD)
    +30% Damage from Banner(30s Duration, 1min CD)
    (+7% near Permanent Damage Buff, +82% Damage buff every 1min~)
    +5% Crit Chance from Banner(5s Duration refresh upon attacking while in banner, 1min CD)
    +15% Attack Speed Buff from Penetrating Cry (1min Duration, 15s CD)


    Assuming a 12man raid, Fellow 1 is Tanks/Supports/Healer One and Fellow 2 is Four DPS, Red Cappy, and Healer 2

    Each person gets the buffs listed above, and if each person is pulling 100-150k DPS without them, with them the Fellow's damage easily increases by atleast double that of another 100-150k DPS. And this is all excluding the 50-100k the Captain itself can contribute, these buffs are more important than doing damage as a Captain. Maintaining them and making sure you stay alive so that you can maintain them is more important than doing damage. Hence why the Battle-Hardened State Legacy buff is important. Captains for a while have started building Tank even in Redline after capping their crit to max buffs. Again, a dead Captain is useless, and is worse than losing a single Hunter, or a single RK in some cases two. If the Captain is dead everyone's damage gets lowered. Unless the Captain gets a serious overhaul it will always remain this way.

    150k * 4 = 600k | 600k * 0.35 = 210k | 210k added damage per second | 210k over 20 seconds = 4,200,000 added damage | over cool down duration 4,200,000 / 180 seconds = 23,333.3... dps.
    150k * 4 = 600k | 600k * 0.12 = 72k | 72k added damage per second permanently over the course of the fight.
    Not sure what a LM or a Burg should be pulling, but I'd imagine it'd be about 50-100k like the Captain, so it should be roughly half of the number above (Factoring in three instead of two and the damage difference before buffs)
    Correct me if I'm wrong, Total of 95k DPS given strickly by THREE of the Cappy's buffs for 4 of the 9 other people in the raid that do damage. Factor in all the Crit, Mastery, and straight Damage bonuses and I think you'll get more than 150k, without the damage of the Captain.

    So back to one of the original questions.(TLDR)

    The Captain is the Jack of All Trades, Master of None.
    Yes, you should put all three Battle state buffs on your support weapon.
    Your damage is useful but not your priority, your healing is useful and helps alleviate work from the Healers, but is not your priority.
    Surviving saves your group a Rez, and your buffs stay active, which is your priority.


    Ps. too lazy to do all the math for 4/5 DPS + Cappy + 2 Tanks + 2/3 Supports damage total for all those buffs

    The only situation where +10 seconds is better is if you start above peril, IE, as you say, to "prevent damage" because that is all that version is good for (Though this means it's not available for a group member in peril). But a future 10 seconds when you are already in peril will not save you, only healing saves you from peril. You can still die with SoD on, and the others you cast it on don't have much for mitigations or morale. Other members will almost certainly not need the added 10seconds, they need immediate healing or they will die. Morale above peril is always better than prolonged mitigation in peril, and not taxing the healer thereby putting the group in peril is a tremendous value. Think of it this way. If it is the case that you need 20seconds, then that is 20 seconds that the healer has to spend on you, which means someone else may die for lack of heals. If it is not the case that you need 20 seconds then you are wasting some portion of it on unimportant damage. One is good for prolonging the tank above peril, one is good for saving everyone, they are completely different versions with completely different purposes and one should have both and use accordingly.

    I read that, in your opinion, as a Captain your damage really does not matter, but that what matters is buffing the group and staying alive. But buffing is parallel to dps, and staying alive is not unique to us and it's predominated by knowing the fight and your surroundings. One day, I'd like to calculate all those buffs, but their existence does not change the fact that your net value = (your personal dps + added dps) when you are in Red... +/- any needed healing occurrences. If your purpose is to add dps, there is no good reason for not doing so completely when it is easily within our ability to add a significant amount of dps. How can one set aside such a large chunk of dps, which will only increase outside the dummy with raid/group debuffs. As far as when you should dps and when you should heal at the cost of dps I was clear on that in the thread. Your primary role is "added dps" because you are heavily invested in red, your priority is contextual. There is no dichotomy between doing buffs or dpsing, you have to do the buffs to dps well.

    You are choosing to be a master of none, that is not the nature of red line. The nature of red line is a master of added dps just like any other dps class, however it follows a different formula: (personal dps + added group dps.) It is a problem of perspective, and that is coming from this dichotomous terminology. All that is of concern regarding dps is total added dps, not the derivation.

    (There is a good point to not dying, but that can be secured through virtues and gems, not a randomly revolving damage source mitigation which may or may not coincide with perilous damage, and outside Zaheers advanced rotation are mutually exclusive meaning you are, for the most part, missing 1 to 2 legacies because they do nothing outside of the proper state.)
    Last edited by Armitas; Mar 04 2020 at 09:19 AM.
    .


  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    The only situation where +10 seconds is better is if you start above peril, IE, as you say, to "prevent damage" because that is all that version is good for (Though this means it's not available for a group member in peril). But a future 10 seconds when you are already in peril will not save you, only healing saves you from peril. You can still die with SoD on, and the others you cast it on don't have much for mitigations or morale. Other members will almost certainly not need the added 10seconds, they need immediate healing or they will die. Morale above peril is always better than prolonged mitigation in peril, and not taxing the healer thereby putting the group in peril is a tremendous value. Think of it this way. If it is the case that you need 20seconds, then that is 20 seconds that the healer has to spend on you, which means someone else may die for lack of heals. If it is not the case that you need 20 seconds then you are wasting some portion of it on unimportant damage. One is good for prolonging the tank above peril, one is good for saving everyone, they are completely different versions with completely different purposes and one should have both and use accordingly.

    I read that, in your opinion, as a Captain your damage really does not matter, but that what matters is buffing the group and staying alive. But buffing is parallel to dps, and staying alive is not unique to us and it's predominated by knowing the fight and your surroundings. One day, I'd like to calculate all those buffs, but their existence does not change the fact that your net value = (your personal dps + added dps) when you are in Red... +/- any needed healing occurrences. If your purpose is to add dps, there is no good reason for not doing so completely when it is easily within our ability to add a significant amount of dps. How can one set aside such a large chunk of dps, which will only increase outside the dummy with raid/group debuffs. As far as when you should dps and when you should heal at the cost of dps I was clear on that in the thread. Your primary role is "added dps" because you are heavily invested in red, your priority is contextual. There is no dichotomy between doing buffs or dpsing, you have to do the buffs to dps well.

    You are choosing to be a master of none, that is not the nature of red line. The nature of red line is a master of added dps just like any other dps class, however it follows a different formula: (personal dps + added group dps.) It is a problem of perspective, and that is coming from this dichotomous terminology. All that is of concern regarding dps is total added dps, not the derivation.
    Regardless of Spec, Priorities are almost always the same as a Captain.
    1. Stay alive and buff
    2. DPS/Heal/Tank, respectively for each tree

    Its obvious you barely skimmed over half the info that I said, which is whatever, have fun being a Support character trying to make your way in the world without using your buffs, since they don't matter. I'll just take my 13+ Years of Captain experience and leave

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by ydoc View Post
    Regardless of Spec, Priorities are almost always the same as a Captain.
    1. Stay alive and buff
    2. DPS/Heal/Tank, respectively for each tree

    Its obvious you barely skimmed over half the info that I said, which is whatever, have fun being a Support character trying to make your way in the world without using your buffs, since they don't matter. I'll just take my 13+ Years of Captain experience and leave
    That 1 year of play difference is completely meaningless in regards to this question. I apologize if I have not been not reading you correctly, I thought I was, and was trying to understand you. Regardless of our disagreement I enjoyed the opportunity to discuss it with you.
    Last edited by Armitas; Mar 04 2020 at 04:58 PM.
    .


 

 
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