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  1. #1

    The Current State of the Black-Arrow - PvP Video

    Hiya, folks!

    I decided to throw together a Black-Arrow video today. Please note that this was a test run to see the sheer damage output capability of the Black-Arrow as it stands in the current state of the game after the release of the Minas Morgul expansion.

    This Black-Arrow was Rank 0 to start, no Corruption Traits, no Class Traits, no Racial Traits and Audacity 13. I picked up the skills Fire-Trap, Snare (triple-trap) and Steadfast Barrage to test.

    By the end of the testing, it was obvious that the Black-Arrow's damage output was on-par with (or stronger than) the Freeps', but only needs to burn through 1/3-1/5 of the damage that a Freep would have to burn through on a high-ranked Creep (800k-1.1m health on most Creeps, 200k-350k on most Freeps).

    I did not show the capability of Steadfast Barrage to shoot through objects because that is a bug and I won't knowingly exploit a bug.

    Please feel free to debate in the comments, but keep it civil.

    "The greatest defeat is the day your enemies no longer fear you," said Rumar.
    "I do not think that will be a problem," replied Zume.


  2. #2
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    Seem's only right to reduce trap's damage by a lot. A none human interactive skill like lay trap/rune stone/pet should not deal extreme damage.


    Move that same dps to other black arrow ranged skills to make it a true ranged class

  3. #3
    Just a small bit of additional information to show how the output of these skills changes with corruptions (done on a r6 BA with 15 audacity, didn't use any stance when testing):

    Fire Trap/Snare
    No change to damage from any corruptions, most likely the same for rank and audacity. Doesn't really change the fact that the damage should be decreased by a lot, of course, and as has been said above, it would be nice to redistribute at least some of it to other skills.

    Barrage
    0 mastery corruptions:
    Dinnerseeker scored a hit with Steadfast Barrage on the Light Training-dummy Orion for 28,616 Orc-craft damage to Morale.
    6 mastery corruptions:
    Dinnerseeker scored a hit with Steadfast Barrage on the Light Training-dummy Orion for 47,056 Orc-craft damage to Morale.

    I'd say barrage isn't really all that broken (not speaking about the glitch) as long as freeps have at least some defensive stats, since it can be quite easily avoided by interrupts/CC. It's yet another of many skills on either side with an overpowered damage output (warg Claws, maybe Tangleshot and Vital Target but not sure about those, Resounding Challenge, FB, DES, Relentless Maul, multiple yellow RK skills, Smouldering Wrath, Lightning Storm, etc etc).
    Some freeps and creeps on Crickhollow, some creeps on Evernight. Recently also a casual Jogger on Arkenstone.

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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by koamarx View Post
    Hiya, folks!

    I decided to throw together a Black-Arrow video today. Please note that this was a test run to see the sheer damage output capability of the Black-Arrow as it stands in the current state of the game after the release of the Minas Morgul expansion.

    This Black-Arrow was Rank 0 to start, no Corruption Traits, no Class Traits, no Racial Traits and Audacity 13. I picked up the skills Fire-Trap, Snare (triple-trap) and Steadfast Barrage to test.

    By the end of the testing, it was obvious that the Black-Arrow's damage output was on-par with (or stronger than) the Freeps', but only needs to burn through 1/3-1/5 of the damage that a Freep would have to burn through on a high-ranked Creep (800k-1.1m health on most Creeps, 200k-350k on most Freeps).

    I did not show the capability of Steadfast Barrage to shoot through objects because that is a bug and I won't knowingly exploit a bug.

    Please feel free to debate in the comments, but keep it civil.

    What freep skills are you calling for nerfs to to make up for the damage loss to the ba when freeps get geared?
    "You can't have your Kate and Eat her too!"

    Katelia Rk 11 Lm, Peppermintt Rk 12 Warg, Katetastrophe Rk 12 WL, Kateaclysm Rk 15 defiler

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by koamarx View Post
    I decided to throw together a Black-Arrow video today.
    I can't say much about the current state, but when watching video, a few things came in to my mind. First, if anything has not changed a lot during few last years, Wardens may struggle with BAs anyways. When I played, javelin skills were too clunky and weak for real use (slow building gambits weakening buffing, weak damage) (of course, after HD, before HD Warden was as deadly in long range than in close combat). It was very hard to fight against BA on Warden, because Warden does not have sprints and such gap closers, nor necessary CC (stuns and such), which would be crucial to force BA to fight at melee range and thus be able to keep up DPS and buffs.

    The Warden on video seems low rank, how experienced the player is, and what kind of gears s/he has? Audacity? Is Warden aware about OC/FW mitigations, and if yes, how much the OC/FW mits are? Anyways, of course, if there has not happened too much, even experienced Warden may struggle against experienced BA just because you might have huge problems to keep the distance favoring you and not BA.

    Have you tried BA against ranged freeps like Hunter or RK? It is much harder to lure aware ranged classes to traps and range does not give BA advantage. Melee classes basically just need to accept that they are standing on traps most of the fight, if BA has even slightest glue what s/he is doing.

    I am definitely not saying anything about the balance, BA may need nerfs or may not need nerfs. I just got curious when seeing the video.
    Laurelin mains: Tamien (R8 Warden) - Tanie (R9 Champion) - Tamieth (Hunter) - Tamia (Minstrel) - Challenger of Gothmog
    Laurelin creeps: Tamratz (R9 Warg) - Tambash (R8 Blackarrow)
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Kate00 View Post
    What freep skills are you calling for nerfs to to make up for the damage loss to the ba when freeps get geared?
    BAs don't need damage nerfs, just redistributions. Traps should go down, but every other skill should have its damage greatly increased to compensate. As of now, it's entirely possible to just run melee, toss traps and run away with a kill without touching other skills.

    And before "they" chime in, no, Steadfast doesn't need changes, Freeps got plenty of interrupts and should simply git gud.

  7. #7
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    Even if you rightfully nerf trap dmg to oblivion the BA is still massively OP, they can put out insane dmg at 40 m range and still maintain really high morale/mits.

    Sure a few freep classes can also dish out good dmg, but difference is that they don't have 800k morale, and the top freep DPS classes Burg/RK most either be in melee or 20m range.

    But overall the dmg output in ettens is just way to high, fights are over before you start them. I got no faith in SSG, I doubt they wil even try to achieve any sorts of balance.

    Even if the take aside the difficult class balance there just so much more #### wrong with ettens.

    - Dmg output is way to high, fights are short
    - Creeps haven't got anything new in a very long time
    - Freep PVP Armour/Jewellery rewards aren't updated for a long time either (thus no additional audiacity for freeps)
    - NPCs are as weak as ever
    - Osgiliath was a waste of time
    - Removal of OC/EC

  8. #8
    I have nothing for or against the supposed argument the video stands upon. Sheering off the peaks won't fill in the valleys to yield a level surface.

    Pulling a slice out of the pie to change its ingredients will likely not enhance the flavor of the pie.
    Università degli Studi di Roma "La Sapienza" Sapienza University of Rome

    Graduate PhD con lode Scienze della Politica

  9. #9
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    Also the dps shouldnt be same as a freeps our morale is vastly different so if anything should be significantly lower than freeps always since has higher morale not same but 3x the morale

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzKr1eg View Post
    But overall the dmg output in ettens is just way to high, fights are over before you start them.
    pretty much sums up the whole of PVP right now.


    Barrage is fine, but barrage + snares is grossly OP. DPS and Healing is too high overall everywhere as compared to morale pools

    Redistribute all the damage that snares put out to the Reaver class AOE skills.
    The Black Appendage of Sauron

  11. #11
    totally agree. BA's snares damage output needs a big nerf asap. At least 50% nerf. All they do is run to you, stun you, lay down snares/traps and you pretty much dead. so sgg, please nerf BA's snare dmg.
    Original Challenger of the Abyss

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Findun View Post
    totally agree. BA's snares damage output needs a big nerf asap. At least 50% nerf. All they do is run to you, stun you, lay down snares/traps and you pretty much dead. so sgg, please nerf BA's snare dmg.
    They can nerf BA snares right after they nerf rks.
    "You can't have your Kate and Eat her too!"

    Katelia Rk 11 Lm, Peppermintt Rk 12 Warg, Katetastrophe Rk 12 WL, Kateaclysm Rk 15 defiler

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Kate00 View Post
    They can nerf BA snares right after they nerf rks.
    there is fine line between overpowered and broken. BA is broken af right now and desperately needs a nerf.
    Original Challenger of the Abyss

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Findun View Post
    there is fine line between overpowered and broken. BA is broken af right now and desperately needs a nerf.
    I mean, you have to account for a lot of factors. Are RKs that are geared as broken as BAs? I'd say 100%, the only difference is that accessibility to a broken BA is higher. It's just sucky all around because until SSG hands out Freep armor and balances around that, then you'll have to continually balance around numbers, because as it is, BAs aren't more broken than RKs, but they have greater numbers.
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    ~Rank 14 Warg, Arkenstone~

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kate00 View Post
    They can nerf BA snares right after they nerf rks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spilo View Post
    Are RKs that are geared as broken as BAs? I'd say 100%
    I would argue that BA is actually much more broken than RK.



    RK DPS is indeed overtuned, but RK DPS is far more conditional, being highly reliant on crits and with much shorter range.


    BAs main DPS drivers have very reliable damage output without any crit RNG and with 40 meter range. Barrage as a big DPS skill is fine on its own, but when combined with snares it becomes very OP because trying to close distance with a BA results in taking even more damage. If those two skills were on different classes, it would be OK... but as it stands right now a single creep class is absolutely dominating while other creep classes are suffering.


    #GiveSnareDPStoReavers
    The Black Appendage of Sauron

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spilo View Post
    I mean, you have to account for a lot of factors. Are RKs that are geared as broken as BAs? I'd say 100%, the only difference is that accessibility to a broken BA is higher. It's just sucky all around because until SSG hands out Freep armor and balances around that, then you'll have to continually balance around numbers, because as it is, BAs aren't more broken than RKs, but they have greater numbers.

    You can't be serious?

    An RK is light armor class with around 200k morale, that can crit max around 200k on a BA with nearly 800k morale at 20m range.

    Whilst the BA can get much higher non crit dmg and crits around 100k, on a target with 200k morale, all that with 40m range.

    Also if the RK close the distance he will get snare dot that ticks between 15-45k every 2 sec depending on how many traps that got triggered.

    The only useful freep class atm is Burglar, which can get kills away from the BA/Defiler standoff.
    Last edited by BlitzKr1eg; Jan 31 2020 at 02:40 PM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kate00 View Post
    They can nerf BA snares right after they nerf rks.

    How on earth can you even compare RK's with BA's at the current state?

    One class is a high dmg 40m range with 800k morale

    Whilst the other high(crit reliant) dmg with 20m range with around 200k morale.


    https://imgur.com/a/unklfAc

    High ranked buffed BA's can even get over 1 million morale.... But yeah keep defending BAs
    Last edited by BlitzKr1eg; Jan 31 2020 at 02:49 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzKr1eg View Post
    You can't be serious?

    An RK is light armor class with around 200k morale, that can crit max around 200k on a BA with nearly 800k morale at 20m range.

    Whilst the BA can get much higher non crit dmg and crits around 100k, on a target with 200k morale, all that with 40m range.

    Also if the RK close the distance he will get snare dot that ticks between 15-45k every 2 sec depending on how many traps that got triggered.

    The only useful freep class atm is Burglar, which can get kills away from the BA/Defiler standoff.
    I mean, BAs may be stronger than RKs, but if you're being crit for 100k from a BA, then you're wearing 0 mits. By the parameter, creeps in non mit builds take 300k+ hits from RKs. At least be truthful if you are going to make an argument.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spilo View Post
    I mean, BAs may be stronger than RKs, but if you're being crit for 100k from a BA, then you're wearing 0 mits. By the parameter, creeps in non mit builds take 300k+ hits from RKs. At least be truthful if you are going to make an argument.
    Firstly, Creeps get access to passive audacity whilst freeps can't get anything above 1 (unless you want to wear ###### gear from like lvl 100).

    Secondly, please enlighten me how a freep dps class should gear towards mit build?

    A BA barely sacrifice any dps by going full morale build, whilst if a RK went for a full mit/defense build they lose too much crit rating.

    So your statement is completely off the rails.

    Guardians/beorns/capts etc can take a lot of punishment, but they can't dish out huge dps numbers from 40m range.

    Do you even play any freep class atm?

  20. #20
    [QUOTE=BlitzKr1eg;7988772]Firstly, Creeps get access to passive audacity whilst freeps can't get anything above 1 (unless you want to wear ###### gear from like lvl 100). [/quote\]

    The damage reduction isn't tied to audacity anymore.


    Secondly, please enlighten me how a freep dps class should gear towards mit build?

    A BA barely sacrifice any dps by going full morale build, whilst if a RK went for a full mit/defense build they lose too much crit rating.
    So you try to catch me on being uneducated, then make this statement immediately afterwards. Ironic.


    I think BAs are busted, aye, but let's not pretend that Freepside is helpless in any way other that numbers, and you certainly don't have to pull absurd numbers out of the air to prove your point.

    Freeps will eventually gear up, and good Freeps will once again roll Creeps, but baddies will find continued reason to complain due to how easy some of the Creep DPS is (claws, BAs), and the fact that as long as it takes months for Freeps to gear, Creeps will always have a numbers advantage.
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  21. #21
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    [QUOTE=Spilo;7988775]
    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzKr1eg View Post
    Firstly, Creeps get access to passive audacity whilst freeps can't get anything above 1 (unless you want to wear ###### gear from like lvl 100). [/quote\]

    The damage reduction isn't tied to audacity anymore.



    No, but its tied to CC duration



    So you try to catch me on being uneducated, then make this statement immediately afterwards. Ironic.

    If you seriously beilive that a creep class sacrifice much dps by going morale/mits build compared to a freep, then yes you're very uneducated about the current state of lotro.

    I think BAs are busted, aye, but let's not pretend that Freepside is helpless in any way other that numbers, and you certainly don't have to pull absurd numbers out of the air to prove your point.
    Look, if you seriously compare what a BA loses by going morale build compared to a freep dps class (especially RK that's reliant on Crits), then yes you're very uneducated about the current state of the game.

    Also I dont pull those numbers out of the air, just today a BA managed to tick Stedfast barrage around 80k

  22. #22
    [QUOTE=BlitzKr1eg;7988776]
    Quote Originally Posted by Spilo View Post

    Look, if you seriously compare what a BA loses by going morale build compared to a freep dps class (especially RK that's reliant on Crits), then yes you're very uneducated about the current state of the game.

    Also I dont pull those numbers out of the air, just today a BA managed to tick Stedfast barrage around 80k

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUSlFpCdak0

    Just leaving this here for you.
    Here you can see what a freep can do if he´s playing smart and is not going class canon
    Have fun

  23. #23
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    Blackarrow is op!

    Burg, rk : am i a joke to you?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers View Post
    I would argue that BA is actually much more broken than RK.



    RK DPS is indeed overtuned, but RK DPS is far more conditional, being highly reliant on crits and with much shorter range.


    BAs main DPS drivers have very reliable damage output without any crit RNG and with 40 meter range. Barrage as a big DPS skill is fine on its own, but when combined with snares it becomes very OP because trying to close distance with a BA results in taking even more damage. If those two skills were on different classes, it would be OK... but as it stands right now a single creep class is absolutely dominating while other creep classes are suffering.


    #GiveSnareDPStoReavers

    on a completely different topic, creeps are saying you are playing an rk surrounded by a burg pack. Surely thats just an ugly rumor right?
    "You can't have your Kate and Eat her too!"

    Katelia Rk 11 Lm, Peppermintt Rk 12 Warg, Katetastrophe Rk 12 WL, Kateaclysm Rk 15 defiler

  25. #25
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    My main issue with ba is why a ranged class top damage comes from a melee skill that isnt even a skill but inanimate object that deals most dps.



    This doesnt ignore to the fact that yellow rk and burg buffs shouldve never happened and in check it broke balance of game. Seems theyve traded hunters one shotting creeps to you now being exploded by a stealth class + a tactical class who almost always crits insane amounts with a flick of the wrist



    If my morale 300k a creeps 900k why should we both be doing 40k dps on each other? and 40k is a high number you can not crit and that simply drops. If want that to remain fine, but atleast redistribute the trap damage and make ba's use they brain in rotation

 

 
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