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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers View Post
    The original game during Shadows of Angmar didn't have this problem... you paid $100 a year and you got a game where there was no monetized grind...
    You know why. It was subscription only back then. Now people can play for free, or pay as they see fit. They can participate in the grind by doing dailies, or pay, or ignore the grind completely. Honestly- you're saying "there weren't any grinds when we all had to pay." But your argument is "it sucks they made a grind you can't skip without paying." Why don't you just pay to skip the grind then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers View Post
    Plugging your ears and singing "lalalalal I cant hear you something something gReAt cOmMuNiTy nEw LaNdScApE" wont change it.
    You're talking about adding all these grinds, but the ILI grind is the only one that's ended up being necessary. Hytbold, Dol Amroth, Ithilien Herbalists, Mordor Allegiance, etc can ALL be skipped completely. The ILI grind is annoying, but it takes several weeks compared to a game that takes several years to play and enjoy. It's not so much us standing around with our fingers in our ears while the game falls apart, as it is you standing around with fingers in your ears focused on this one aspect of the game you hate so very much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orintho View Post
    Long time MMO player here. With all these fears expressed of game shut-down, I should mention that I started MMOs with Ultima Online and people, that game is STILL going.
    Also worthy of note that people have been proclaiming the doom of Lotro in the forums almost since the beginning. Every time someone doesn't like something in the game it's "what's going to kill this game" and "Now I'm just hanging out to watch it burn." ....11 years later some have left, some have come back, some are brand new, some are still complaining after all these years.

  2. #27
    Halphast, thank you. I completely agree. It's so, so annoying to look at the forums and see nothing but negativity from folks who know as much of the internal workings and budget of Standing Stone Games as do you or I (which means: absolutely nothing; none of us know the spreadsheets and how well the game is doing financially). LOTRO is a GAME. It's supposed to be fun - and honestly, I don't really mind "grinding" through Minas Tirith for empowerment scrolls. It's mindless, and it's quick, and it gets me a bit of in-game gold. For those trolls who are going to hammer me as some sort of apologist: honestly, why are you here? You obviously aren't having fun playing a GAME. So go somewhere else. Are there things that could be better, or that SSG could do better? Sure. But it's a small group of people who have to triage things. If you're not having fun, then find another way to have fun, and take your negativity somewhere else. There's constructive criticism, and then there's negativity, and these forums seem to only have the latter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halphast View Post
    You know why. It was subscription only back then. Now people can play for free, or pay as they see fit. They can participate in the grind by doing dailies, or pay, or ignore the grind completely. Honestly- you're saying "there weren't any grinds when we all had to pay." But your argument is "it sucks they made a grind you can't skip without paying." Why don't you just pay to skip the grind then?



    You're talking about adding all these grinds, but the ILI grind is the only one that's ended up being necessary. Hytbold, Dol Amroth, Ithilien Herbalists, Mordor Allegiance, etc can ALL be skipped completely. The ILI grind is annoying, but it takes several weeks compared to a game that takes several years to play and enjoy. It's not so much us standing around with our fingers in our ears while the game falls apart, as it is you standing around with fingers in your ears focused on this one aspect of the game you hate so very much.



    Also worthy of note that people have been proclaiming the doom of Lotro in the forums almost since the beginning. Every time someone doesn't like something in the game it's "what's going to kill this game" and "Now I'm just hanging out to watch it burn." ....11 years later some have left, some have come back, some are brand new, some are still complaining after all these years.

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Halphast View Post
    You know why. It was subscription only back then. Now people can play for free, or pay as they see fit. They can participate in the grind by doing dailies, or pay, or ignore the grind completely. Honestly- you're saying "there weren't any grinds when we all had to pay." But your argument is "it sucks they made a grind you can't skip without paying." Why don't you just pay to skip the grind then?



    You're talking about adding all these grinds, but the ILI grind is the only one that's ended up being necessary. Hytbold, Dol Amroth, Ithilien Herbalists, Mordor Allegiance, etc can ALL be skipped completely. The ILI grind is annoying, but it takes several weeks compared to a game that takes several years to play and enjoy. It's not so much us standing around with our fingers in our ears while the game falls apart, as it is you standing around with fingers in your ears focused on this one aspect of the game you hate so very much.

    The LI grind isn't necessary either if you consider landscape PVE solo questing to be the only content in the game.... heck, leveling is optional too if you consider festivals and roleplaying in south bree to be the only content in the game too.


    The difference between the old minimal-grind Pay-2-play model and the current pay-2-avoid-grind model is that paying to circumvent the grind or to "win" fundamentally seeps into every single design decision to the point where practically every peice of game content is designed intentionally to be unenjoyable and punishing, such that people will be forced to pay to complete it or sit for months/years performing an unenjoyable task.


    in short, instead of the primary mindset around content and system design creation being "how can I make this as interesting and enjoyable as possible"... it becomes "how can I make this as boring and repetitive as possible so that people pony up to avoid/complete it".

    This is why SSG removed scrolls of empowerment from instance drops (a somewhat more fun way to obtain scrolls) leaving only Minas Tirith dalies, which have a reputation as being the most boring grind dailies in the game (the LEAST fun way to obtain scrolls).


    I have yet to see any dev-defender "positive minded" people explain away that one.


    An honest monetization scheme for a f2p model would be selling cosmetics/fun items and access to content... not pay-2-win and pay-2-avoid-grind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hweldar View Post
    take your negativity somewhere else. There's constructive criticism, and then there's negativity, and these forums seem to only have the latter.

    take your negativity about my negativity somewhere else... there's constructive criticism about my negativity, and then there's negativity about my negativity... an this thread seem to only have the latter.
    Last edited by Saruman_Of_Numbers; Jan 11 2020 at 06:52 PM.
    The Black Appendage of Sauron

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers View Post
    in short, instead of the primary mindset around content and system design creation being "how can I make this as interesting and enjoyable as possible"... it becomes "how can I make this as boring and repetitive as possible so that people pony up to avoid/complete it".

    This is why SSG removed scrolls of empowerment from instance drops (a somewhat more fun way to obtain scrolls) leaving only Minas Tirith dalies, which have a reputation as being the most boring grind dailies in the game (the LEAST fun way to obtain scrolls).

    I have yet to see any dev-defender "positive minded" people explain away that one.
    I'd much rather do MT dailies than Entwood, Hytbold, or Wildermore. Clearly a matter of opinion.

    You're blowing a grind way out of proportion. We've gone from MT being terrible to these wild claims that the devs purposefully make the whole game boring in order to get money. What, is there a magical kingdom of your favorite super-fun content locked behind a paywall? I've never seen it. What is this pay-to-win or pay-to-enjoy content that you love so much? I love the game because it's huge and beautiful, and I don't mind the grind because it's only a small part of the game. You hate the grind so much that it eclipses everything else and makes the whole game a boring cash-grab in your eyes, and that's sad.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers View Post

    An honest monetization scheme for a f2p model would be selling cosmetics/fun items and access to content... not pay-2-win and pay-2-avoid-grind.

    I quite agree with you on this note. I mentioned this a few years back, and never understood why they didn't develop more cosmetic type items in addition to some of the nice things we earn or get at festivals.

    In the past I've seen other completely free MMOs run their games on cosmetics, and while a little annoying, you do see this in-game when people park their character with their new stuff, whether earned or purchased.

    People like to show off new shiny stuff regardless what the alleged hard core gamer thinks about it. As long as it brings in money to keeps the game going, imho, it should be encouraged.

    Perhaps the complainers should be ignored in regards to things like cosmetics. No on forces anyone to buy cosmetics from the shop; and although they take a little time to develop, once they're uploaded they can earn income over and over, and over again.

    If they did some of this maybe they could drop some of the drive towards the pay-to-win strategy they seem to be employing.
    Irritating people? USE the Ignore feature under Community > Friends & Contacts > Edit Ignore List and ADD THEM there. Or, click this - EDIT IGNORE LIST. Btw, MMO never meant "all together now". It simply means a server capable of supporting simultaneous play of hundreds or even thousands of players. Anything else is false narrative.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Namma View Post
    I mentioned this a few years back, and never understood why they didn't develop more cosmetic type items in addition to some of the nice things we earn or get at festivals.
    I think that would be nice! And maybe more variety to the cosmetics, too. Most of what you see is "badass armor" variants. It would be great to see more options for actual clothing.

    As for why they don't, it could be something as simple as having a very small art team who are needed elsewhere. Dunno- but I do like your suggestion a lot.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hweldar View Post
    [...] So go somewhere else.

    [...]

    If you're not having fun, then find another way to have fun, and take your negativity somewhere else. There's constructive criticism, and then there's negativity, and these forums seem to only have the latter.
    But we do have some fun, elsewhere in the game - just not on this part of it, which is why we complain about it (we being, all the players you are referring to).

    If every one of those players, should take your advice, I doubt SSG would thank you for it, and you may find the game gets a bit more lonely.

    This is constructive criticism for SSG . . . .

    Please fix the LI grind. It's ruining the game for many players, and that's why you hear about so frequently on your forum. If it weren't such a big issue, you'd hear very little about it.

    and this is for you . . .

    Your opinion on the LI grind is relevant, so please do, add it. Your opinion, on my opinion of it - isn't.
    Last edited by Arnenna; Jan 15 2020 at 01:47 PM.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    and this is for you . . .

    Your opinion on the LI grind is relevant, so please do, add it. Your opinion, on my opinion of it - isn't.
    You've said so little in this thread so far, it's hard to believe you would take Hweldar's comments so personally. They were talking about the overall negativity on the forums, which is a widespread problem. Positive comments about the game and requests for constructive criticism over bitter kvetching are always relevant, valid, and welcome.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halphast View Post
    You've said so little in this thread so far, it's hard to believe you would take Hweldar's comments so personally. They were talking about the overall negativity on the forums, which is a widespread problem. Positive comments about the game and requests for constructive criticism over bitter kvetching are always relevant, valid, and welcome.
    I don't take things personally, but, nice try on trying to make it look as if I may have - but you're incorrect. For the record, no post has offended me on any personal level in here.

    I respect that others may have differing opinions to mine, and I welcome debate and discussion about any subject, and believe it or not, another point of view can sometimes sway me, and make me think about things a bit more. Debating the opinion of another, in the regard of offering a different viewpoint is fine. Simply debating the fact that someone else has a different opinion though, is rather destructive to conversation IMO. People disagree, that's life. Nobody should be told to get out, leave, or go away, simply because they have a different viewpoint - whether that viewpoint be negative, or positive.

    I've said very little in this thread because I don't have any idea what business is going down at SSG HQ, nor do I want to know. So I won't speculate on it. I give positive or negative feedback, depending on a topic, and that's all.
    Last edited by Arnenna; Jan 15 2020 at 08:17 PM.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Halphast View Post
    these wild claims that the devs purposefully make the whole game boring in order to get money.
    Purposefully making the game prior to the endgame more boring, yes.

    What other explanation is there for purposefully, intentionally, consciously removing scrolls of empowerment from instance loot?

    Again, no one seems to be able to come up with an alternative answer to that one... the best anyone has done is dance around that question as you have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halphast View Post
    What, is there a magical kingdom of your favorite super-fun content locked behind a paywall? I've never seen it. What is this pay-to-win or pay-to-enjoy content that you love so much? You hate the grind so much that it eclipses everything else and makes the whole game a boring cash-grab in your eyes, and that's sad.

    PVMP and challenging endgame group instances used to be the main attraction for a large number of players... the grind blocks people interesting in participating in those activities (which you also have to pay for up front in the form of VIP or buying the expansions).

    the grind+monetization combined with the increasing neglect of raiding, which used to be the central tenant of the game (see: the entire classic era from SoA-RoR and Throne of the Dread Terror) has crushed entire communities.


    The fact that you are not interested (or capable enough) to participate in those activities does not negate the validity of the complaints lodged by those communities, who at one point were collectively the dominant demographic in the game.
    The Black Appendage of Sauron

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers View Post
    What other explanation is there for ... removing scrolls of empowerment from instance loot? ... the best anyone has done is dance around that question as you have.
    Dancing around a question is knowing the answer but being afraid to tell you. I'm not a dev, so I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers View Post
    PVMP and challenging endgame group instances used to be the main attraction for a large number of players... the grind blocks people interesting in participating in those activities (which you also have to pay for up front in the form of VIP or buying the expansions).
    Again, the grind doesn't block anyone from playing raids. You put in your time, and you're done. Minimal upkeep to keep your ILI maxed. The grind only becomes a stumbling block to people who want a large number of capped toons, and/or people who want instant gratification.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers View Post
    the grind+monetization combined with the increasing neglect of raiding, which used to be the central tenant of the game
    The word you're looking for is component, or feature. A tenet is a dogma or belief. A tenant (the way you spelled it) is someone who rents an apartment.

    Why am I now being petty about spelling? See below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers View Post
    The fact that you are not interested (or capable enough) to participate in those activities...
    "U don't care as much about raiding therefore U suck at the game." Nice try kiddo.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Your opinion on the LI grind is relevant, so please do, add it. Your opinion, on my opinion of it - isn't.
    Your condescension to tell someone what is and isn't welcome in this thread, combined with the fact you personalized his comments ("my opinion" you said) shows you took it personally. On top of that, you said "my opinion" referring to an opinion you hadn't expressed, so yes, you took his general comment to the thread personally. Your follow-up "nice try" comment to me only makes you look more defensive.

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Halphast View Post
    Your condescension to tell someone what is and isn't welcome in this thread, combined with the fact you personalized his comments ("my opinion" you said) shows you took it personally. On top of that, you said "my opinion" referring to an opinion you hadn't expressed, so yes, you took his general comment to the thread personally. Your follow-up "nice try" comment to me only makes you look more defensive.
    Your use of the "welcome" approach is twisting the message. That's not what Arnenna said. An opinion of an opinion is not relevant to the discussion. It doesn't debate the message, but the messenger. Also you are over analyzing the opinion injecting thoughts which are not there. There is also this. If she were indeed on the defensive, that would suggest someone is on the offensive. Are you willing to assume this latter role by questioning the messenger rather than the message?
    Università degli Studi di Roma "La Sapienza" Sapienza University of Rome

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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halphast View Post
    Your condescension to tell someone what is and isn't welcome in this thread, combined with the fact you personalized his comments ("my opinion" you said) shows you took it personally. On top of that, you said "my opinion" referring to an opinion you hadn't expressed, so yes, you took his general comment to the thread personally. Your follow-up "nice try" comment to me only makes you look more defensive.
    Saying something is not relevant is not saying it is not welcome. That's not up to me, people can post what they want. An opinion on another persons opinion is not in any way relevant to a topic, hence it's irrelevant to a discussion. It's debating the person, not the topic.

    That's not condescension - it's the rules. Look them up.

    I repeat, I have taken nothing personally or been offended, so I am not on the defensive. There is nothing to defend. Or have I missed something offensive aimed at me?

    I have to admit at this point though, you are confusing me quite a bit. You deem me condescending because of one small but accurate comment, yet telling people to shut up, go away, stop posting and playing the game as . . . fine and worthy of defence.

    Ok then
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapienze View Post
    There is also this. If she were indeed on the defensive, that would suggest someone is on the offensive. Are you willing to assume this latter role by questioning the messenger rather than the message?
    This is Affirming the Consequent, a fallacy. People get defensive all the time when no one has been offensive, so one doesn't prove the other.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    ... An opinion on another persons opinion is not in any way relevant to a topic...I have taken nothing personally or been offended, so I am not on the defensive. ... telling people to shut up, go away, stop posting and playing the game as . . . fine and worthy of defence.
    Hweldar responded to negativity in this thread (of which there's plenty, so it's therefore relevant) and in general across the forums.

    The original post was about someone who wanted to offer assistance by running a product analysis. I find this interesting and am looking forward to Viola's work on this, when they are able to get it done. In the meantime however, the thread has turned into another complaint-fest. Viola did say they wanted to know if people have "Some wish" about the game, but that still doesn't sound like an invitation to start complaining about ILIs .........again......

    I've explained why I believe you took something personally: Hweldar made a general comment about negativity, then you responded defending "your opinion," which you had not yet made clear in this thread. His comment was general, you responded as if it were personal.

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Halphast View Post

    Dancing around a question is knowing the answer but being afraid to tell you. I'm not a dev, so I don't know.
    and yet, you seem to ridicule the idea that they would intentionally make the game more boring and grind...

    but you're not a dev... so you don't "know".. so why are you commenting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Halphast View Post
    Again, the grind doesn't block anyone from playing raids. You put in your time, and you're done. Minimal upkeep to keep your ILI maxed. The grind only becomes a stumbling block to people who want a large number of capped toons, and/or people who want instant gratification.

    Hello my working class fellow.... do you want to relax on your own private yacht and have fun?

    well my son, all you have to do is "put in your time" at your boring dead-end sorry excuse for a job and save what you earned... and by the time you're 70 you will have accumulated enough to enjoy yourself!

    Remember son.... this grind is only a stumbling block to those who want to enjoy themselves too much doing too many things and to those who want instant gratification...


    the soulless grind is what make the thing at the end more enjoyable!


    Now if you'll excuse me, I have a private jet to take to my Caribbean golf course. Keep working son! Make your boss proud!

    *lights cigar*
    The Black Appendage of Sauron

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halphast View Post

    I've explained why I believe you took something personally:
    and I've explained to you, adequately and precisely, that you're assumption is incorrect. Now please . . . let it go.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Halphast View Post
    This is Affirming the Consequent, a fallacy. People get defensive all the time when no one has been offensive, so one doesn't prove the other.
    The question was rhetorical. I've seen "Affirming the Consequent" used enough times to target the exception rather than the rule to know when evasiveness is at work. Quite politic, wouldn't you agree? 7/10



    Your post about condescension, personal and defensive was tantamount to "You Mad Bro" poking. Which is in itself an aggressive move. Not only did Arnenna put this on its face, but did so rather tactfully. Thus avoiding the flame hole put in her path.
    Università degli Studi di Roma "La Sapienza" Sapienza University of Rome

    Graduate PhD con lode Scienze della Politica

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers View Post
    Remember son.... this grind is only a stumbling block to those who want to enjoy themselves too much doing too many things and to those who want instant gratification...
    If you don't have 45 mins a day to do a grind for a month or two, you don't have time to reach level 100 in the first place.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    and I've explained to you, adequately and precisely, that you're assumption is incorrect. Now please . . . let it go.
    All you communicated here is "I'm out of arguments. Please stop replying so I can have the last word."
    Also when you're trying to come across as being the victor in a contest of words, it undermines that image when you mix up you're and your.
    Last edited by Halphast; Jan 19 2020 at 10:18 PM.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapienze View Post
    The question was rhetorical. I've seen "Affirming the Consequent" used enough times to target the exception rather than the rule to know when evasiveness is at work. Quite politic, wouldn't you agree? 7/10
    Do you understand Affirming the Consequent, or have you just associated it with evasiveness?
    The idea is someone tries to say "If A then B. B, therefore A."
    The fallacy in this case was "If someone is offensive, then someone is defensive. She got defensive, therefore you're offensive." It's not being evasive, it just doesn't work that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by sapienze View Post
    Your post about condescension, personal and defensive was tantamount to "You Mad Bro" poking. Which is in itself an aggressive move. Not only did Arnenna put this on its face, but did so rather tactfully. Thus avoiding the flame hole put in her path.
    What Arnenna did is not really participate in this thread until it was time to attack someone who told everyone to stop being negative. She took it personally (obviously) and came at the person trying to make them feel (in her words) irrelevant and therefore (according to her next post) breaking the rules somehow. To then just bluntly deny that she was being defensive and taking things personally isn't very tactful, nor clever.

  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Halphast View Post
    If you don't have 45 mins a day to do a grind for a month or two, you don't have time to reach level 100 in the first place.
    "Listen here... if you don't have 8 hours a day to grind for a decade or two, you don't have time to enjoy yourself in the first place!"

    *drives off in Mercedes bought with daddy's hedge fund money*




    ... it seems to be lost on you that people play this game to have FUN. This game is advertised as a place to have FUN. If the game contains something that is mandatory and is the opposite of fun, than it has been fundamentally dishonest.




    "Imagine you want to order a burger and fries at a restaurant. You ask for a burger and fries, but all they give you is the tray. You have to order each French fry separately and the waiter puts them on the tray one at a time, asking you to to pay for each one until all 200 fries are accumulated. Then you have to buy the soda and the waiter puts it in the cup using an eyedropper, one drop at a time. Then you have to buy the straw. Then you have to buy each component of the burger separately and wait 1 hour for the waiter to deliver each piece before you order the next. After you're done eating, you have to buy 1x1 inch napkins made of public restroom toilet paper separately to wipe your face, with a 15 minute cooldown per purchase.

    After all of this, the waiter informs you that next time the restaurant can provide the burger, fries, drink, straw, and napkins instantly, without any delay, for the small price of $50.

    Now imagine after all of this you’re still like “darn this meal was so good, can’t wait for the next expansion”




    The Black Appendage of Sauron

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers View Post
    "Listen here... if you don't have 8 hours a day to grind for a decade or two, you don't have time to enjoy yourself in the first place!".. it seems to be lost on you that people play this game to have FUN. This game is advertised as a place to have FUN. If the game contains something that is mandatory and is the opposite of fun, than it has been fundamentally dishonest.
    Exaggerating what I said doesn't make it untrue.
    Also the grind isn't mandatory.
    Plenty of people play the game just for fun and never even encounter the grind, but they get told "you're not a real player" or "you're just a casual." Others get through the grind and go back to enjoying the game. Others spend so much time complaining on the forums it's clear they don't enjoy the game at all, so it comes across really strange when they say the game is just for fun.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halphast View Post
    All you communicated here is "I'm out of arguments. Please stop replying so I can have the last word."
    Also when you're trying to come across as being the victor in a contest of words, it undermines that image when you mix up you're and your.
    I had no argument to begin with. By all means - add another post, and have the last word. You may as well, you had the first word on it. I claim victor status of nothing, as I have no argument to fight (made crystal clear to you now, three times). But neither do I have any intention of keeping up conversation with you when all you have left is poking at grammar. My apologies then, that my error offended you. It was late.

    Have a good night.
    Last edited by Arnenna; Jan 19 2020 at 11:31 PM.
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