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  1. #1
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    Is the Dev team aware that they unintentionally lowered Item Levels in scaling instances @130?

    There is a major stat gain when an item is above Item Level 400 compared to <400 Item Level. This was made so that Level 130 loot is way better than older, level 120 Loot.

    Example:


    However, some instances, such as "Thikil-Gundu", "Glimmerdeep" and "Court of Seregost" drop Loot @Item Level 398 or 399 Base Item Level when you do them at Level 130. This means that the items can randomly upgrade to 400+ and benefit of the major stat increase.

    This leads to an extremely inconvenient situation where basically all loot under 400 Item Level is way worse than 400+ Loot of the same item. The way this is determined is entirely RNG. So not only do you need to find the "correct item", you also need to hope for an "Item Level Upgrade by 1 or 2 levels" so that the item is above 400. We don't need another layer of RNG in this game's loot system.

    Most items in Thikil Gundu, Glimmerdeep and Court of Seregost used to drop at exactly 400 Base Item Level 2 updates ago but with U25.1 they unintentionally lowered the Base Item by 1 or 2 so that the Items in these instances can only get to 400 Item Level by RNG-upgrades.

    How to fix? - Increase the Base Item Level in these instances to 400.

  2. #2
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    I'm not convinced it was "unintentional".
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    I'm not convinced it was "unintentional".
    There is 0 reason to create another layer of RNG. They didn't mention it anywhere in the Patch Notes. It's still possible to get 400+ Items but it's 100% determined by RNG and you can not influence it in any way. It makes 0 sense to have it that way.
    That's why it's unintentional.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Snobs View Post
    (...)
    That's why it's unintentional.
    Oh, it was very much intentional. Same as with every recent level cap release since Mordor, all even remotely useful gear drops outside of the newest content are being nerfed (90% of the time w/o mention in the patch notes).
    * with Mordor they added LoE mechanic, so gear outside of Mordor was useless; gear dropping on landscape was removed shortly after release;
    * 120 cap - item levels outside of Ered Mithrin were "mysteriously" decreased 5 item levels lower soon after release, epic battle drops were bugged for some time (were always level 100);
    * 130 cap - Mordor and Ered Mithrin instance drops were nerfed to base item level below 400 (with huge stat loss) in the first or second hotfix after release; socketed scaling armor is also currently "bugged" @lvl120 (pelennor/osgiliath cluster); epic battles rewards were "broken" again at lvl 100 after being fixed at some point during 120 cap (boxed rewards if you open inside the instance, gold/plat rewards always @100).

    Nothing from the above was unintentional, besides maybe epic battle rewards, and it shows a clear pattern.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Snobs View Post
    There is 0 reason to create another layer of RNG. They didn't mention it anywhere in the Patch Notes. It's still possible to get 400+ Items but it's 100% determined by RNG and you can not influence it in any way. It makes 0 sense to have it that way.
    That's why it's unintentional.
    well... weeks after lvl120 hit, they reduced all itemlevels in scaled instances from 355 to 350 or something like that.
    Players were annoyed and wanted that change reversed.
    Nothing ever happened.
    So if SSG regularly gives fast people bonus/better loot, why should it then be unintentional in this case?
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  6. #6
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    Regardless of it being intentional or not, it's a stupid loot system that shouldn't be in the game.

    You should not have to have "Double-RNG" for a drop to be considered good. Let's not make the discussion go into the direction if it's intentional or not and rather discuss why it's a bad system regardless.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothrir View Post
    Oh, it was very much intentional. Same as with every recent level cap release since Mordor, all even remotely useful gear drops outside of the newest content are being nerfed (90% of the time w/o mention in the patch notes).
    * with Mordor they added LoE mechanic, so gear outside of Mordor was useless; gear dropping on landscape was removed shortly after release;
    * 120 cap - item levels outside of Ered Mithrin were "mysteriously" decreased 5 item levels lower soon after release, epic battle drops were bugged for some time (were always level 100);
    * 130 cap - Mordor and Ered Mithrin instance drops were nerfed to base item level below 400 (with huge stat loss) in the first or second hotfix after release; socketed scaling armor is also currently "bugged" @lvl120 (pelennor/osgiliath cluster); epic battles rewards were "broken" again at lvl 100 after being fixed at some point during 120 cap (boxed rewards if you open inside the instance, gold/plat rewards always @100).

    Nothing from the above was unintentional, besides maybe epic battle rewards, and it shows a clear pattern.
    And they wonder why many folks are playing less and less... o/
    “And some things that should not have been forgotten were lost. History became legend. Legend became myth. And for two and a half thousand years, the ring passed out of all knowledge.”
    ? J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Snobs View Post
    Regardless of it being intentional or not, it's a stupid loot system that shouldn't be in the game.

    You should not have to have "Double-RNG" for a drop to be considered good. Let's not make the discussion go into the direction if it's intentional or not and rather discuss why it's a bad system regardless.
    I doubt anyone will disagree with you there. It's a terrible system, that's in no service to the player. And it's been discussed to death already. Ever since they added ash/embers/motes/whatever, this multiple layered RNG has been effectively the driving game-design concept, built-in in almost any in-game activity at the moment - be it instances, festivals, crafting, etc..

  9. #9
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    It's like the big battles jewelry. They were often better than even the improved new stuff due to types of stats they gave, so they got the bat. The push is strongly to only allow gear from the brand new content so these err mistakes tend to happen. I found it some of the best fun in years to get all those BB jewelry. It was an alternate method of gearing. Why is that so bad???

  10. #10
    Well yes of course they were aware, tho they might not have realized that rng could still push it up to 400. Its been a consistent pattern for more than a decade that the early players for new content get the best rewards, and then the rewards get nerfed for everyone else. Another example is the drop rate for crafting boxes, it used to be that on t2 there would be two boxes drop, now usually 0 drop on t2. Its an obvious and known pattern, tho there are a few people who contend that some of it is unintentional. It is a good question why old content is continuously destroyed. An expansion should expand available content, not constrict it like it does in lotro. Think how in Diablo 2 the expansion did not make the old content obsolete. There are other games like that, but not lotro. How much more fun this game would be if instead of 4 instances to play, we had 50. But they have it in their head that somehow destroying content is good for the game, as counterintuitive as that is. Too bad for so many of the current players who have never the thrill of completing some of the best content in the game, such as Carn Dum, OD, or Draigoch. I think about this every time I hear some poor low level soul calling out in world chat for help to complete a "quest" to do something like SG or such. They have no idea that its not a real quest, its just an old broken instance that used to be good but nobody does anymore. They don't understand that from level 20 to level 120 the game can no longer be played, because the content was destroyed.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snobs View Post
    Regardless of it being intentional or not, it's a stupid loot system that shouldn't be in the game.

    You should not have to have "Double-RNG" for a drop to be considered good. Let's not make the discussion go into the direction if it's intentional or not and rather discuss why it's a bad system regardless.
    You'll have no argument off me in this regard. I totally agree that the system is awful and all it does is destroy old content. But, I think its by design. SSG want to have everything tied into the latest group content - even crafting.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    You'll have no argument off me in this regard. I totally agree that the system is awful and all it does is destroy old content. But, I think its by design. SSG want to have everything tied into the latest group content - even crafting.
    I'm pretty sure they unintentionally buffed the old instances from 398 to 400 base iLvl when they buffed all the new loot (intentionally)

    And then when they (intentionally) nerfed the new T3 loot when they introduced T5 they probably unintentionally nerfed the old loot from 400 to 399

    It's just dumb that you have to gamble on the 399->400 bonus iLvl. Now since that loot is out there and some people have it I think they should just increase the iLvl by 1 so all that old loot is 400 and viable

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    I'm pretty sure they unintentionally buffed the old instances from 398 to 400 base iLvl when they buffed all the new loot (intentionally)

    And then when they (intentionally) nerfed the new T3 loot when they introduced T5 they probably unintentionally nerfed the old loot from 400 to 399

    It's just dumb that you have to gamble on the 399->400 bonus iLvl. Now since that loot is out there and some people have it I think they should just increase the iLvl by 1 so all that old loot is 400 and viable

    Agreed, but what they'll probably do, now that they know about it, is bring out the nerf bat, kill the +1 (400) advantage for future runs and leave the lucky early birds that got the higher ilevel items keep the spoils, just like always.

    It seems to me they want everyone - inside the four new instances. Even crafters. Maybe they think that makes the game feel busier and more full of players - short term.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  14. #14
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    In all seriousness, with the amount of content they manage with a small team, they have to do this.

    If you are willing to roll the dice, you can get better gear from old instances, but they can't make it too certain, otherwise they would lose control of the gearing design.

    You could always play the old scaled up content just for fun and variety, and if something good drops its a bonus.
    Just don't go in there "expecting" good drops.

    The alternative is they don't scale content up at all.

    We want them to keep creating new content, while maintaining old content, with a team that can't be large because of the frugal reality of the FTP model.

    It is what it is.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by drongo View Post
    In all seriousness, with the amount of content they manage with a small team, they have to do this.

    If you are willing to roll the dice, you can get better gear from old instances, but they can't make it too certain, otherwise they would lose control of the gearing design.

    You could always play the old scaled up content just for fun and variety, and if something good drops its a bonus.
    Just don't go in there "expecting" good drops.

    The alternative is they don't scale content up at all.

    We want them to keep creating new content, while maintaining old content, with a team that can't be large because of the frugal reality of the FTP model.

    It is what it is.
    Scaling instanced content giving decent standardised reward worked fine for years. Since Mordor, that's all changed and it coincides with something very, very obvious.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Agreed, but what they'll probably do, now that they know about it, is bring out the nerf bat, kill the +1 (400) advantage for future runs and leave the lucky early birds that got the higher ilevel items keep the spoils, just like always.


    It reminds me of my childhood days when I would feed trout at a nature preserve. I'd toss fish food pellets that look like dog food. I would lead the school of trout around by strategic placement of my fish food tosses. Eventually, I would keep throwing the fish food in the same spot over and over just to watch the trout get lucky. Piling over themselves with only one compulsion. To feed.




    Once in a while I would get lucky and see a huge trout nearly gobble up a much smaller trout trying to get to the pellet first.


    It occurred to me years later that those trout didn't need the fish food to survive. They only did what they did, because it is part of their nature. Understanding the rules opens up room for opportunity.


    Università degli Studi di Roma "La Sapienza" Sapienza University of Rome

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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapienze View Post
    It reminds me of my childhood days when I would feed trout at a nature preserve. I'd toss fish food pellets that look like dog food. I would lead the school of trout around by strategic placement of my fish food tosses. Eventually, I would keep throwing the fish food in the same spot over and over just to watch the trout get lucky. Piling over themselves with only one compulsion. To feed.




    Once in a while I would get lucky and see a huge trout nearly gobble up a much smaller trout trying to get to the pellet first.


    It occurred to me years later that those trout didn't need the fish food to survive. They only did what they did, because it is part of their nature. Understanding the rules opens up room for opportunity.


    Fishing analogies . . . i like it

    That big old opportunistic fat fish though, often ends up being the one aimlessly swimming about, with nothing much to do, thinking . . . this is too easy, while trying to change how the ocean should work.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Scaling instanced content giving decent standardised reward worked fine for years. Since Mordor, that's all changed and it coincides with something very, very obvious.
    All mysteries in the SSG universe can be summed up in one word: store.

  19. #19
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    They reduced the Item Level of the Mathom armor as people were using some of the stuff to supplement missing pieces. Now not so much.
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  20. #20
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    Simply

    MM = money
    Any strength gears without MM =
    Everything you can earn from farming LP =

  21. #21
    Yes. And lvl 130 The Depths of Kidzul Kalah is dropping lvl 120 loot...

    The way I see it, they want us to play and gear in new instances only. Where do locks come in this logic, I can hardly understand. Having no diversity whatsoever, people are getting really tired of available choices, when you do same instances for quests but also for dailies and also for loot... Marmot Day.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirhaen View Post
    Yes. And lvl 130 The Depths of Kidzul Kalah is dropping lvl 120 loot...

    The way I see it, they want us to play and gear in new instances only. Where do locks come in this logic, I can hardly understand. Having no diversity whatsoever, people are getting really tired of available choices, when you do same instances for quests but also for dailies and also for loot... Marmot Day.
    last night I did the four instances in MM, and the weekly completed at the same time. That's it - all done, for a whole week. I no longer need the relics from the dailies, so, nothing left to do.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    I'm not convinced it was "unintentional".
    This!
    This this this this this this!
    It's for these reasons that I never intend to buy Minas Morgul, I'm content enough to stay at the 120 part, got plenty enough alts to keep me entertained.
    The lootboxes were bad enough, the lack of gearing options forcing to acquire your stuff through the expansion alone has been a bad trend already, but the stealth nerfing of items and drops from content that people have bought under the premise of said instances being scaling (along with other promises that didn't seem to come*) all because they want to push for more lootbox, more grind, and ultimately for people to actually purchase the expansion regardless of the quality of the content... All of it is just getting a bit too much for me.
    We all know the issues, they affect people differently I suppose. But my biggest gripe (and it has been for a while) is the obvious fact that the devs have nerfed loot from instance runs, they set up this whole tier system (5 tiers? Is that really necessary?) while promising the whole concept of "high tiers will offer new and unique mechanics" despite t2C doing this BETTER than the current system we have now (look back to older instances, they don't make them like they used to).
    Remember Court of Seregost? It consistantly dropped Legendary Item components such as scrolls and crystals, some may argue that the drop rate was too high, sure... But SSG's solution? Completely nerf the entire instance drops so that you get NOTHING in relation to LI stuff.
    And after that... It gets only better! One of the reasons I bought Ered Mithrin (apart from the promise of Dwarf stuff) was that it was directly or indirectly promised that LIs would drop from the new instances and one of the reasons of nerfing CoS drops was to encourage players to run more relevant content... It in fact did the EXACT OPPOSITE of this and forced players to play through Minas Tirith Dailies and retaking Pelargir to acquire their LI upgrades.

    Given the track record, and then seeing what is going on with Minas Morgul and item level nerfs (seriously, from 399 to 400 is a substantial increase in stats), I wouldn't even be surprised if it is an intentional design choice, in fact I suspect it is.
    It could very well be a genuine bug that they may intend to fix, alongside Big Battle jewelry and other scaling instance loot drops, but it certainly looks intentional and many players would probably have a similar suspicion and doubt in their mind about the integrity of what SSG is doing here.
    ...It would hardly matter when the raid comes out sometime this March(?). That's another issue again, it's another point among many that the community raises that dictates that SSG has clearly rushed... Or more appropriately... Been rushed into making this expansion, all because Daybreak need those sale numbers to be raised.

    ...But stout axes look cool I suppose.
    -Askelin: 130 Warden who has a bear for a wife.
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  24. #24
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    Agree with all of this. Its sad, i'm from one o the largest kins in Snowbourn, they played since beta, i joined them a few years ago. At most they had like 1k members, now when i log in i see 1 or 2 :/.

    Quote Originally Posted by Askelin View Post
    This!
    This this this this this this!
    It's for these reasons that I never intend to buy Minas Morgul, I'm content enough to stay at the 120 part, got plenty enough alts to keep me entertained.
    The lootboxes were bad enough, the lack of gearing options forcing to acquire your stuff through the expansion alone has been a bad trend already, but the stealth nerfing of items and drops from content that people have bought under the premise of said instances being scaling (along with other promises that didn't seem to come*) all because they want to push for more lootbox, more grind, and ultimately for people to actually purchase the expansion regardless of the quality of the content... All of it is just getting a bit too much for me.
    We all know the issues, they affect people differently I suppose. But my biggest gripe (and it has been for a while) is the obvious fact that the devs have nerfed loot from instance runs, they set up this whole tier system (5 tiers? Is that really necessary?) while promising the whole concept of "high tiers will offer new and unique mechanics" despite t2C doing this BETTER than the current system we have now (look back to older instances, they don't make them like they used to).
    Remember Court of Seregost? It consistantly dropped Legendary Item components such as scrolls and crystals, some may argue that the drop rate was too high, sure... But SSG's solution? Completely nerf the entire instance drops so that you get NOTHING in relation to LI stuff.
    And after that... It gets only better! One of the reasons I bought Ered Mithrin (apart from the promise of Dwarf stuff) was that it was directly or indirectly promised that LIs would drop from the new instances and one of the reasons of nerfing CoS drops was to encourage players to run more relevant content... It in fact did the EXACT OPPOSITE of this and forced players to play through Minas Tirith Dailies and retaking Pelargir to acquire their LI upgrades.

    Given the track record, and then seeing what is going on with Minas Morgul and item level nerfs (seriously, from 399 to 400 is a substantial increase in stats), I wouldn't even be surprised if it is an intentional design choice, in fact I suspect it is.
    It could very well be a genuine bug that they may intend to fix, alongside Big Battle jewelry and other scaling instance loot drops, but it certainly looks intentional and many players would probably have a similar suspicion and doubt in their mind about the integrity of what SSG is doing here.
    ...It would hardly matter when the raid comes out sometime this March(?). That's another issue again, it's another point among many that the community raises that dictates that SSG has clearly rushed... Or more appropriately... Been rushed into making this expansion, all because Daybreak need those sale numbers to be raised.

    ...But stout axes look cool I suppose.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    last night I did the four instances in MM, and the weekly completed at the same time. That's it - all done, for a whole week. I no longer need the relics from the dailies, so, nothing left to do.
    We really need some diversity. Used to was one would go in different places for different items. And some of the best items were even crafted. If they bother to scale something, it should drop at least something of importance. I would very much like to see all instances, including skirmishes, to be relevant again. Yes, sure enough, one can do them just for fun, but I'm finding most people nowadays not motivated enough nor having enough time to do something just for fun.

    Another thing that I'm wondering is if it's possible for players arriving on previous levels to do instances on level. It seems to me that difficulty of the old instances remains unchanged while for example crafted consumables, essences, gear got nerfed meanwhile. So I am wondering if someone on level 105 can do Throne on level now, or Abyss, Anvil, etc.

 

 
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