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  1. #101
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    May 2018
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    86
    To summarize most of the Important stuff I've seen on this thread :

    #1 Heavy shield is a really good idea, makes champion tanking abit easier, and would also add another selection of weaponry for leveling champions, would be quite cool to see a return to i think.
    #2 red line across the board needs a large damage increase. You can say like Hephburz-2 that "You cant judge off 3man" , but you can off the DPS dummies, and champ falls at the lowest of the chain, probably below hunters still .Burg>RK>Ward>Hunt>Champ. The reliance on crits for DPS is very poor, and simple fixes are just bumping base skill damage, and crit damage both, and adding an overall debuff that does not just focus meles , as alot of the content has been favourable of burgs and wardens for their AOE and strong damage.
    #3 we said this in a thread a while back, but scaling of Deep strikes or the addition of an armour debuff to it, so it isnt absolute garbage.Used to be a nice bleed back in the day, not seen any love or great damage from it since.Also seen it in this thread, with even more good ideas.
    #4 Bracing attack should be made into a blood arrow like skill (10% heal, 2% every 2seconds with a 30s cooldown,unlike hunters bloodarrow with 15seconds.Feels more balanced than a constant regen of health, turns into a rather beorn red v2 especially damaging pvp.

    I personally like the use of weapon swapping, find that it gives the seperates the classes skill quality up.Should keep it.
    #5 Reduction of cooldowns of Clobber and fight on: or add a trait like the class essence and make it strapped to the bottom of red for it to hajve a 5% chance to reset Fight on, which stacks with class essence to make 10%.
    Yeah probably alot more that can be pointed out,but thats the main 5 things i can see that would be greatly beneficial to the class.

  2. #102
    I would prefer a signifikant % Armour bonus and the ability to to block Independent from your weapon choice over heavy shields

    Also a reduction of the Impact that has weapon swapping in your damage would be nice,
    Eather by normelising both Styles OR providing a definitive answer to the long lasting question of what is the best weapon choice for a line via redesign choices

  3. #103
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    Jun 2011
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    Guys we are asking for a hot fix here that its going to make Champions viable and competitive for the upcoming content they dont have time to make a full revamp of the class so suggestions like remove weapon swapping,bring back the heavy shield etc etc is not going to happen at least at the moment.Those things that we need at the moment are:

    First of all mitigation bypass to all skills while in Red for 10-15% so we will be less depended from so many classes together to mitigate our targets and perfect group setups.

    Second, a buff to our Red line dps for all skills so the Red line can be viable with out weapon swapping and competitive with weapon swapping at high tiers with the other dps classes.

    Third, proper up scaling for Rend armor debuff and Flurry from Yellow line,proper up scaling of Horn of Gondor debuff,fixes to bleeds in general and devastating critical.

    Fourth, percentages for Bracing attack,less CD and more heal for Fight on,less CD for Sprint and Fear nothing.


    The first two changes is a must for now so we can be viable and competitive for new content the other two can live with out for now if they dont have time to make cause creeps are pressing hard also.


    PS:We need confirmation from developers that they are aware of the situation.Many of as have been supporting this game since the release and have spend a lot of time and money for this game so i believe we deserve a response here.

    Thank you for your time.
    Arandour Champion Rank 12-Nerien Hunter rank 11-Runendir RK Rank 7
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  4. #104
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    Jun 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    Guys we are asking for a hot fix here that its going to make Champions viable and competitive for the upcoming content they dont have time to make a full revamp of the class so suggestions like remove weapon swapping,bring back the heavy shield etc etc is not going to happen at least at the moment.Those things that we need at the moment are:

    First of all mitigation bypass to all skills while in Red for 10-15% so we will be less depended from so many classes together to mitigate our targets and perfect group setups.

    Second, a buff to our Red line dps for all skills so the Red line can be viable with out weapon swapping and competitive with weapon swapping at high tiers with the other dps classes.

    Third, proper up scaling for Rend armor debuff and Flurry from Yellow line,proper up scaling of Horn of Gondor debuff,fixes to bleeds in general and devastating critical.

    Fourth, percentages for Bracing attack,less CD and more heal for Fight on,less CD for Sprint and Fear nothing.


    The first two changes is a must for now so we can be viable and competitive for new content the other two can live with out for now if they dont have time to make cause creeps are pressing hard also.


    PS:We need confirmation from developers that they are aware of the situation.Many of as have been supporting this game since the release and have spend a lot of time and money for this game so i believe we deserve a response here.

    Thank you for your time.
    Jep it´s really sad that you rarely to never see bluename responses in such threads.

  5. #105
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    Oct 2007
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    43
    Even a simple: "We've read you concerns and are discussing how we want to respond."

    Which is probably the most non-answer answer, would be a great way to chip in.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrplaneswalker View Post
    Even a simple: "We've read you concerns and are discussing how we want to respond."

    Which is probably the most non-answer answer, would be a great way to chip in.

    I am so worried and i ask for confirmation cause i had bad experience from the previews Mordors expansion when they exclude champions completely from end game content cause of the mechanics.Lets hope that they are not exclude as again this time for this expansion cause we are under power and not proper up scaled.Its so same to spend so much time ,effort and money and keep you out for the wrong reasons.The First time i was so turned off that almost give up the game.Havent log in for at least 6 months,didnt even had the mood to stay and see the changes that they make for champions to keep as kinda happy instead of missing the content.If this happen again i will be off for sure this time cause its not worth the money and time that i spend if i cannot enjoy the content with my favorite class.I have already enough anxiety in Real life cannot have anymore for the game too.
    Arandour Champion Rank 12-Nerien Hunter rank 11-Runendir RK Rank 7
    Kinship PRIME-Evernight Since May 2007
    Borzol R12-Mauhnakh R9-Varcolac R9-Sumnor R8-Orcapo R8 (Creep status retired)

  7. #107
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    Oct 2007
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    43
    A new year, a new opportunity for the devs to do right by champions.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by mrplaneswalker View Post
    A new year, a new opportunity for the devs to do right by champions.
    The most obvius but not 100% acurate prediction for the next champion update would be when we get new taller hobbit race that will include champion option(its the only one left to sell for a new hobbit race). So in the next possible expansion like 2 years from now?
    Argohald Champion(main), Phokalin Guardian, Aljeza Lore master : The Aegean eagles kinship in Evernight
    Aleziana Lore master, Ellinas Guardian Landroval
    Member of old Riddermark family (server)

  9. #109
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    Feb 2011
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    antwerp
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    1

    /Signed

    /signed
    I've seen champion situation get systematically worse and worse.
    It takes an extraordinary amount of time and skill to be relevant at top tier content
    as a champion at this stage.

    Hotfix this with a raw numbers patch, and rethink from the ground up over time!

  10. #110
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    Jun 2011
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    Change the trait might increase to crit increase would be a real nice change for champs too.
    12742 might is worth nothing even with all the changes to might while ~58k crit (finesse value of the trait) would be a real nice increase.
    Champs must reach atm minimu 630k crit to be at least compareable to the other classes, with out capped crit champs are nothing.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    Change the trait might increase to crit increase would be a real nice change for champs too.
    12742 might is worth nothing even with all the changes to might while ~58k crit (finesse value of the trait) would be a real nice increase.
    Champs must reach atm minimu 630k crit to be at least compareable to the other classes, with out capped crit champs are nothing.
    I dont think that they are going to change Might with critical they already gave us critical with might something that was a very welcome change.Problem is not to reach the cup,already have 26% to my champ and we are at the very fist of the expansion,problem is to overcup by lot so can have decent dps numbers like we had to do for Anvil.I had at least 4 armor swap pieces only with critical essences on above the cup, it would be nice if i didnt have to use those and instead had defensive stats on.But anyway this is small matter at the moment and like i said before i dont expect big changes.If they give us the mitigation penetration for Red and a buff to Red line i will be very happy cause we will not loose again the end game content.I did couple of T3 runs in Anvil from what i see after wardens show their parses we need buffs for yellow too but i am not going to ask anything about that cause at least the yellow line is viable and maybe competitive if we have to deal with more than 10 targets.Definitely need proper upscale for Rend tho and horn of Gondor so we can be kinda useful for the group by offering some support like everybody else does.
    Arandour Champion Rank 12-Nerien Hunter rank 11-Runendir RK Rank 7
    Kinship PRIME-Evernight Since May 2007
    Borzol R12-Mauhnakh R9-Varcolac R9-Sumnor R8-Orcapo R8 (Creep status retired)

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    I dont think that they are going to change Might with critical they already gave us critical with might something that was a very welcome change.Problem is not to reach the cup,already have 26% to my champ and we are at the very fist of the expansion,problem is to overcup by lot so can have decent dps numbers like we had to do for Anvil.I had at least 4 armor swap pieces only with critical essences on above the cup, it would be nice if i didnt have to use those and instead had defensive stats on.But anyway this is small matter at the moment and like i said before i dont expect big changes.If they give us the mitigation penetration for Red and a buff to Red line i will be very happy cause we will not loose again the end game content.I did couple of T3 runs in Anvil from what i see after wardens show their parses we need buffs for yellow too but i am not going to ask anything about that cause at least the yellow line is viable and maybe competitive if we have to deal with more than 10 targets.Definitely need proper upscale for Rend tho and horn of Gondor so we can be kinda useful for the group by offering some support like everybody else does.
    This should be minimum. In addition I really want to see tac mit from vita too(but this I want to see on all melee classes).
    And figth on should grant an initial heal of 20% and then 3% each to 2s for 20s. And bracing attack should give a 10% heal.
    And for red in addition to buffed basedmg, a deep strikes initial tick (with an internal cooldown of 20s, if we get the initial tick)

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    Change the trait might increase to crit increase would be a real nice change for champs too.
    12742 might is worth nothing even with all the changes to might while ~58k crit (finesse value of the trait) would be a real nice increase.
    Champs must reach atm minimu 630k crit to be at least compareable to the other classes, with out capped crit champs are nothing.
    If a change like this would be made it should be a percentage not a rating bonus. Perhaps 2.5% like the second crit bonus burglars get from yellow or blue line (don't know which one it is). Otherwise we can be sure that at some point in the future the scaling will be bad.
    Additionally a percentage bonus would go above the cap which would be a great improvement for a class that dependent on crits as the champion.
    Server Gwaihir - Kinship Nightfalls

  14. #114
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    43
    Alternatively

    they could make Deep Strikes tick once on applications. Reduce the crit scaling legacy. Bump the base damage on a couple of our skills and add a little mitigation bypass.

    And then we wouldn't be as crit dependent.
    Which would be bloody AMAZING.
    Last edited by mrplaneswalker; Jan 07 2020 at 04:33 PM.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by mrplaneswalker View Post
    Alternatively

    they could make Deep Strikes tick once on applications. Reduce the crit scaling legacy. Bump the base damage on a couple of our skills and add a little mitigation bypass.

    And then we wouldn't be as crit dependent.
    Which would be bloody AMAZING.
    That should be done for all classes honestly..my lightning Rk also has those ridiculous crits and ridiculously low non crits

    Just get rid of all the crit multiplier legacies and rebalance the base damage

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by mrplaneswalker View Post
    Alternatively

    they could make Deep Strikes tick once on applications. Reduce the crit scaling legacy. Bump the base damage on a couple of our skills and add a little mitigation bypass.

    And then we wouldn't be as crit dependent.
    Which would be bloody AMAZING.
    Deep Strikes seem to have not scaled at all with the lvl increase, the bleed damage is so low compared to lvl 120.
    I had a ~3min fight with over 100 ticks, with ~320k dmg. That's way to low, blade wall can crit with 160k and that's just one spell, compared to 200sec worth of bleed ticks.
    If you want to contact me, pls don't write me a Private Message on the Forum, the chance that I read them is low.
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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    Deep Strikes seem to have not scaled at all with the lvl increase, the bleed damage is so low compared to lvl 120.
    I had a ~3min fight with over 100 ticks, with ~320k dmg. That's way to low, blade wall can crit with 160k and that's just one spell, compared to 200sec worth of bleed ticks.
    How do you manage not to crit? I still habe a lot long time figths with 0 ticks.
    And for the number of dmg we need to wait until we have +200% again

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrplaneswalker View Post
    Alternatively

    they could make Deep Strikes tick once on applications. Reduce the crit scaling legacy. Bump the base damage on a couple of our skills and add a little mitigation bypass.

    And then we wouldn't be as crit dependent.
    Which would be bloody AMAZING.
    For each percent crit magnitude legacy reduction the basedmg must get improved by 2% minimum either 3%. For the same dps.

  19. #119
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    Oct 2007
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    43
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    For each percent crit magnitude legacy reduction the basedmg must get improved by 2% minimum either 3%. For the same dps.
    Well, no. Not really.

    Lets do some napkin math. Say champions crit damage is 325% with a 30% chance to crit. Lets additionally say the li legacy is worth 175% of that 225% increased crit damage. Baseline crit damage multiplier is 50% leaving us with a magic 0% multiplier from rating because its easier.

    On average a champions damage is (.3*2.25) around 67.5% higher when all crits are averaged out. Baseline, all classes are supposed to have 15% increased damage with a capped 30% crit rating. (.3*.5).

    So, we napkin math again and say that the fictional legacy in this instance is worth around a 50% dps increase.
    If we all agree that champions damage is fine when fully crit-capped then we want to trade 175% crit multiplier (50% damage increase) for a raw damage increase of around 45% on all skills. On average, in this magic scenario which is very napkin mathy.

    Taking this incredibly napkin mathy example you'd then want to trade around 4% crit multiplier for 1% damage increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    Deep Strikes seem to have not scaled at all with the lvl increase, the bleed damage is so low compared to lvl 120.
    I had a ~3min fight with over 100 ticks, with ~320k dmg. That's way to low, blade wall can crit with 160k and that's just one spell, compared to 200sec worth of bleed ticks.
    I know that Deep Strikes has that issue of not doing damage when reapplied from a crit. But that would have Deep Strikes contributing around 2k DPS over the course of 3 minutes to what I'm assuming was an average parse around 70k.
    That... almost makes me wonder if its worth dropping Deep Strikes entirely from redline for now. Thats... shiiiit... thats like a 3% dps increase to redline damage, at the cost of... 8 skill points? I really don't think thats worth it. Assuming the numbers I'm pulling out of my hat are in the right ballpark.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrplaneswalker View Post
    Well, no. Not really.

    Lets do some napkin math. Say champions crit damage is 325% with a 30% chance to crit. Lets additionally say the li legacy is worth 175% of that 225% increased crit damage. Baseline crit damage multiplier is 50% leaving us with a magic 0% multiplier from rating because its easier.

    On average a champions damage is (.3*2.25) around 67.5% higher when all crits are averaged out. Baseline, all classes are supposed to have 15% increased damage with a capped 30% crit rating. (.3*.5).

    So, we napkin math again and say that the fictional legacy in this instance is worth around a 50% dps increase.
    If we all agree that champions damage is fine when fully crit-capped then we want to trade 175% crit multiplier (50% damage increase) for a raw damage increase of around 45% on all skills. On average, in this magic scenario which is very napkin mathy.

    Taking this incredibly napkin mathy example you'd then want to trade around 4% crit multiplier for 1% damage increase.



    I know that Deep Strikes has that issue of not doing damage when reapplied from a crit. But that would have Deep Strikes contributing around 2k DPS over the course of 3 minutes to what I'm assuming was an average parse around 70k.
    That... almost makes me wonder if its worth dropping Deep Strikes entirely from redline for now. Thats... shiiiit... thats like a 3% dps increase to redline damage, at the cost of... 8 skill points? I really don't think thats worth it. Assuming the numbers I'm pulling out of my hat are in the right ballpark.
    Not excactly even with pure math champs habe 35% chance,in the praxis you even reach 40-45% crits.
    And this with an increase from 10k uncritted to 80k crited.
    So with we minimum douple our dps with crits so if you take the magnitude you need to douple the basedmg.
    Atm our basedmg is +200% doupled +500%( (100+200)×2)=100+500).
    With tanking the legacy 175% you need to reach the 500 you need 2.86% basedmg/%critmagnitude.

    I would even say let the critmagnitude and take the possibility to devaste and add this 10% to the critchance.

  21. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    Deep Strikes seem to have not scaled at all with the lvl increase, the bleed damage is so low compared to lvl 120.
    I had a ~3min fight with over 100 ticks, with ~320k dmg. That's way to low, blade wall can crit with 160k and that's just one spell, compared to 200sec worth of bleed ticks.
    What were you fighting that has such high mitigations against your bleeds?
    I just did a quick test against the housing DPS-dummy only using skill to refresh the deep strikes-bleed so I got around 80 ticks during the 3 minute fight (you were fighting against multiple mobs I asume from your number of more then 100 ticks in 3 minutes) fpr a total of about 1.1 million damage (~14k per tick on average) or in other words about 6k DPS from deep strikes. My DPS against the dummy is in the range of 70-80k depending on luck with crits so deep strikes are roughly 8% of this.
    Server Gwaihir - Kinship Nightfalls

  22. #122
    Bullroarer will be showing the next update tomorrow and still no improvement for champions....

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-2-1-Preview-1
    Server Gwaihir - Kinship Nightfalls

  23. #123
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    We are under power, no proper up scaled, we are going to miss the new instances and raid because of that and they wasting time by playing with LM and Captains pets.Unbelievable...
    Arandour Champion Rank 12-Nerien Hunter rank 11-Runendir RK Rank 7
    Kinship PRIME-Evernight Since May 2007
    Borzol R12-Mauhnakh R9-Varcolac R9-Sumnor R8-Orcapo R8 (Creep status retired)

  24. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    We are under power, no proper up scaled, we are going to miss the new instances and raid because of that and they wasting time by playing with LM and Captains pets.Unbelievable...
    To be honest we are in better condition than hunters. Hunters take like ages to clear trush on 3 mas but still that doesn't excuses anything. I only pray for the new 6mans do be more like Deep borrows which is at the moment the most melee friendly instance. KK was terrible example for champions thought. Will see...
    Argohald Champion(main), Phokalin Guardian, Aljeza Lore master : The Aegean eagles kinship in Evernight
    Aleziana Lore master, Ellinas Guardian Landroval
    Member of old Riddermark family (server)

  25. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Schaijian View Post
    What were you fighting that has such high mitigations against your bleeds?
    I just did a quick test against the housing DPS-dummy only using skill to refresh the deep strikes-bleed so I got around 80 ticks during the 3 minute fight (you were fighting against multiple mobs I asume from your number of more then 100 ticks in 3 minutes) fpr a total of about 1.1 million damage (~14k per tick on average) or in other words about 6k DPS from deep strikes. My DPS against the dummy is in the range of 70-80k depending on luck with crits so deep strikes are roughly 8% of this.
    I honestly don't know it anymore, on the dummy i got around 410k dmg with 30 ticks,
    i can just imagine the 100 ticks included a lot of resists.
    If you want to contact me, pls don't write me a Private Message on the Forum, the chance that I read them is low.
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