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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osglinthor View Post
    -20% induction is borderline worthless due to all classes already having low inducitons/traits that shorten their inductions so its not great at all.Mit debuffs are decent part of utility.
    When you compare utility champ is not that far off,red line needs like it has been said 100 times over mitigation bypass and from there % damage increase to put red even with ward.
    20% pf 20s are still 4s reduction even on 5s it is 1s reduction.
    Doesn't look much but it is. You win a skill all 5 skills or better said each 5th skill is additional.

    And there is no doupt that the champ especialely the red need some sideutilty for balancing or if not around 20% more dps to equalize the missing buff of the others for the same group dps.

  2. #152
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    If the exact buffs were to be implemented would balance not fall off even more? where does the idea that a class should do both high st and high aoe damage evolve from? If you do great aoe damage is it not fair you fall behind in st? Even if thats a st line would it be fair if you able do both greatly.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikkye View Post
    If the exact buffs were to be implemented would balance not fall off even more? where does the idea that a class should do both high st and high aoe damage evolve from? If you do great aoe damage is it not fair you fall behind in st? Even if thats a st line would it be fair if you able do both greatly.
    Heres the thing. AoE damage DOES falloff in redline. ST damage SHOULD fall off in Yellow Line.

    No-one here is asking for a class which is both best at Tanking, AoE and Single Target all at the same time.

    Thats what trait trees are, they specialize us. If a champion runs yellow line he loses access to some of the high-damage red line abilities. If a champion runs red line he loses access to some high damage yellow line AoEs.
    As it stands right now our AoE is only really good at very high numbers of enemies, those fights are not currently present in the released instances. Our Single Target is outclassed by... basically everyone else. This means not only are we not needed for AoE right now because the fights we're up against don't have massive numbers of adds, but we're also not desired for the bossfights because we don't help the team significantly nor do we do enough damage to the boss to make the run end quickly.

    Think of it this way. Each trait tree is a different subclass. And NO class should be penalized and have its trait trees less efficient for their specific objectives.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrplaneswalker View Post
    Heres the thing. AoE damage DOES falloff in redline. ST damage SHOULD fall off in Yellow Line.

    No-one here is asking for a class which is both best at Tanking, AoE and Single Target all at the same time.

    Thats what trait trees are, they specialize us. If a champion runs yellow line he loses access to some of the high-damage red line abilities. If a champion runs red line he loses access to some high damage yellow line AoEs.
    As it stands right now our AoE is only really good at very high numbers of enemies, those fights are not currently present in the released instances. Our Single Target is outclassed by... basically everyone else. This means not only are we not needed for AoE right now because the fights we're up against don't have massive numbers of adds, but we're also not desired for the bossfights because we don't help the team significantly nor do we do enough damage to the boss to make the run end quickly.

    Think of it this way. Each trait tree is a different subclass. And NO class should be penalized and have its trait trees less efficient for their specific objectives.
    For this I'm completely with you.
    But there are two proplems.
    1. The sideutility how much do you can buff your fellows debuff the enemy while doing your dps and on this champs are the one of the worst, wirst melee. (I compare allways melee with melee. Range has other utilities which they bring into the group as melee. Like less inc dmg (no auras,360), can ignore mechanics (no running away from splash)...)
    2. Burgs and warden have one line, they can do their dps on the boss and if adds spannend their dps increase cause they hit more targets with the same rotation.
    While champs has to choose. Either go Aoe and do less dmg in the boss only phase or go st and either ignore the adds or Switch to them. But with each choice you're in disadvantage. Either the fight needs longer or you've more inc dmg if you ignore the adds.

    Solution could be stances in red. With which you can do st only if need, let us say with 20 more dmg output of the strikeskills, or another with which strikeskills Hits 3 targets.

    So we would have three choices:
    - Red st focused Stange (high st dmg)
    - red light Aoe stance (same dmg numbers as niw but on 3 targets)
    - yellow (for high foe fights)

    Edit: And speaking of the sideutilities let crited and devaste strikeskills reduce the foes partialavoidancechance by 5% threetimes stackable.
    Last edited by Mukor; Jan 20 2020 at 03:31 PM.

  5. #155
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    To buff a classes subclass role unless buffing every other classes subrole at same time will result in unbalance. 1 primarily role performed well first across board then we can move into sub trait lines being fixed fully but if do 1 at time it solves nothing.
    Last edited by mikkye; Jan 20 2020 at 04:19 PM.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikkye View Post
    To buff a classes subclass role unless buffing every other classes subrole at same time will result in unbalance. 1 primarily role performed well first across board then we can move into sub trait lines being fixed fully but if do 1 at time it solves nothing.
    Then we need content in which you will need the one spec which isnt given for champs if you name yellow as well working.
    To be competitive to wardens in Aoe we need minimum 7 targets At one time, which is in the newest content not given.
    And even the we destroy everything in the st boss fight. So faster in not to mention Crash fights, if they would habe 7+targets, and far slower in the important bossfights.
    So red and yellow must be working well. Or we can forget champs

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikkye View Post
    If the exact buffs were to be implemented would balance not fall off even more? where does the idea that a class should do both high st and high aoe damage evolve from? If you do great aoe damage is it not fair you fall behind in st? Even if thats a st line would it be fair if you able do both greatly.
    Forget about burglars that they are superior of everyone by far if they have to deal with 3-4 targets, lets talk about Wardens.Lets say they will give Champions the same ST dps like Wardens have, who you think still will have the advantage,Wardens cause they can focus to put down quick the main target and at the same time they can do massive AOE to everything around it.Champions cannot do that at high tiers, we have to go full AOE or full Single cannot do both with one line like burglars,wardens and RKs can do.At the moment if you bring 6-7 targets Wardens can do more dps than champions in AOE,above 10 targets Champions can do probably more but to be honest i am not so sure yet.
    Mikk.at the moment champions offer less support and less dps than other dps classes, they can be useful for a group only if with the boss spawn 10 or more adds and had to be killed and not ignored.In any other situation Wardens can do what we do but much better.
    If you dont want Champions do more ST dps than hunters yes i agree no one should but at the moment probably even yellow rks can do more than hunters.I think after Champions update hunters should be next for some tweaks.They had so many updates since Throne and they are still messed up.
    Last edited by Arandour; Jan 20 2020 at 05:07 PM.
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  8. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by mikkye View Post
    To buff a classes subclass role unless buffing every other classes surole at same time will result in unbalance.
    Champion's primary role is DPS, while tanking is secondary. Implying that somehow yellow is more primary than red is all in your head. If AoE damage was supposed to be any class' primary role, than any relevant content since 105 should've acknowledged it. Are you saying that fire RK is somehow more primary than Lightning too? Or blue vs red hunter (maybe I should say Abyss vs Anvil hunter to make my point clearer)? Every spec should be relevant to the content that requires it. If AoE isn't required to counter any mechanic in any instance, apart from clearing trash faster, then I fail to see how it's more primary than single target DPS, which is actually what is required from DPS classes for boss fights right now. Who cares if yellow champion is 1st or 2nd or 3rd (depending on the number of mobs) in AoE damage, when the content doesn't require it.

    It's been two years after the class "balance pass" - which was some tweaks to Blue line - which failed to made it much more viable than before (it's better, but it's still worst tank to pick for 99% of the content), some minor adjustments to base damage in red, which are nowhere near relevant anymore + increased auto-attack speed, which all classes got (which was reduced in 2 or 3 patches since then). And that's not even considering the 105-115 era, that most champs I'm sure wish to forget fast.

    Arguing against changes for it may upset some non-existent balance, even before the devs have acknowledged that they even intend to work on the class is puzzling.

  9. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by mikkye View Post
    To buff a classes subclass role unless buffing every other classes subrole at same time will result in unbalance. 1 primarily role performed well first across board then we can move into sub trait lines being fixed fully but if do 1 at time it solves nothing.
    Not sure which game you are playing but, all DPS classes I know of have been buffed over these past few months/year, whereas nothing has been done on Champ.

    - Lightning RK recently buffed? -Check
    - Red Warden recently buffed? -Check
    - Red Burg buffed? - Check
    - Red Hunter updated? -Check (although I wasn't playing during 2018 and much of 2019, but I know that they received an update to Red line)

    Also this 'subclass role' whatever that means, is kinda irrelevant at this stage, Champ's only role is to DPS, be it coming from Yellow or Red, doesn't matter, both need to be equally strong at what they advertise. There is no other role, Blue line tanking barely gets away on 3 mans, and apart from a few champs, no one uses it.
    Last edited by Araphorn; Jan 20 2020 at 07:21 PM.

  10. #160
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    Precisely define the champs mainrole to aoe dmg (yellow) would make him needless per definition.
    We´ve no figths in the current endcontent , at least bossfigths (trash you can pull together), with 8+ foes, when we rich yellow champs territory.
    So to give a reason to take a champ, if red doesn´t get buffed, we need content figths vs 8+ foes ( for the newraidbosses minimum 50% vs boss + 8 or more adds constantely (90% uptime)).
    Maybe even one boss with a mechanic that he summoned10 adds all 10% morale, starting with a group of 10 adds, and he only get, as long minimum 1 add lives, 50% of the dmg an add get if it get hit by the same skill the boss did.
    This would mean hit the boss + 9 adds would grant dmg to the boss of 9*50% (assuming each hit on the adds was as strong as the others). e.g. wardens would cause up 5*50% on the boss in an addphase ... .
    So you can choose to go aoe and harm the boss while killing the adds or focus the adds and then go back to the boss for the next 10% morale.
    This in combination with an enragetimer could be an interessting fight.

  11. #161
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    Well, I've tried Black Lore as a champ. Solo and in a 6man (3 champs in that group.)

    Can't do it.

    Apparently the frost giant is supposed to drop horns to clear away the storms. He hasn't for me.
    I couldn't get to skorgrim yesterday, kept getting oneshot during the nameless reflect phases (lights were bugged out, wasn't attacking, no dots, taking stupid amounts of damage, rangers are ####ty tanks.).

    I know this is buggy, but I also know that other classes are getting through these fights and it pisses me off.

    I don't like fight design that mandates a high investment into tactical mitigation. Especially when I can only realistically get to around ~25-30% tactical mit without neutering my crit or physical mastery. But I can understand that design decision to an extent. I don't agree with it but I'll abide for now.

    Being unable to clear these instances even with a high investment into tactical mit, and the general melee unfriendly nature of the fights has got me ready to throw the baton at the devs again.

    I think its time we got a complete class revision. Its needed. We also need stated dps goals, an overhaul to the ili system and revamped trait trees for all classes. But I'll settle for a champion rework.

  12. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by mrplaneswalker View Post
    I don't like fight design that mandates a high investment into tactical mitigation. Especially when I can only realistically get to around ~25-30% tactical mit without neutering my crit or physical mastery. But I can understand that design decision to an extent. I don't agree with it but I'll abide for now.
    I believe the devs do not realize what big difference physical versus tactical damage means for Might & Agility classes. They're so out of touch with so many elements of their game...this is probably just another one. So, one boss gets 200K physical attacks (unmitigated), the other one gets 200k tactical attacks (unmitigated). Why not? Seems balanced. Except when you play the game and know it is not, since many classes have a hard time to get Tactical Mitigations to a reasonable level, champs being one of them.

  13. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by mrplaneswalker View Post
    Well, I've tried Black Lore as a champ. Solo and in a 6man (3 champs in that group.)

    Can't do it.

    Apparently the frost giant is supposed to drop horns to clear away the storms. He hasn't for me.
    I couldn't get to skorgrim yesterday, kept getting oneshot during the nameless reflect phases (lights were bugged out, wasn't attacking, no dots, taking stupid amounts of damage, rangers are ####ty tanks.).

    I know this is buggy, but I also know that other classes are getting through these fights and it pisses me off.

    I don't like fight design that mandates a high investment into tactical mitigation. Especially when I can only realistically get to around ~25-30% tactical mit without neutering my crit or physical mastery. But I can understand that design decision to an extent. I don't agree with it but I'll abide for now.

    Being unable to clear these instances even with a high investment into tactical mit, and the general melee unfriendly nature of the fights has got me ready to throw the baton at the devs again.

    I think its time we got a complete class revision. Its needed. We also need stated dps goals, an overhaul to the ili system and revamped trait trees for all classes. But I'll settle for a champion rework.
    What do you consider melee unfriendly in the new instances? For us, our standard setup is 2 melee, 1 ranged dps (Burg, Warden, Rk) and we haven't had any issues

  14. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    What do you consider melee unfriendly in the new instances? For us, our standard setup is 2 melee, 1 ranged dps (Burg, Warden, Rk) and we haven't had any issues
    I would not call the new instances mele unfriendly, you always will have mechanics were a ranged class has an advantage, but nothin game-breaking.
    For example, in every one of the new 6mans, you need to move out of the group because of eyes/aoe damage/puddles, etc., a mele class needs to stop dpsing at this point, were a ranged class can keep on going.
    There are also some mechanics a ranged class can simply out range, but the mele has to tank it.

    But this is how a ranged advantage in games works, meles just need to have certain other advantages to compensate for it.
    If you want to contact me, pls don't write me a Private Message on the Forum, the chance that I read them is low.
    The best way is via Discord:
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  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    What do you consider melee unfriendly in the new instances? For us, our standard setup is 2 melee, 1 ranged dps (Burg, Warden, Rk) and we haven't had any issues
    Indeed burglar-warden for melee ONLY for those new and even for Nazguls that it is in general AOE friendly with 4-5 targets in some point still the other two can perform better cause THEY CAN DO MORE DAMAGE.Champions watching them play at high tiers at the moment and they do dailies instead...
    Yea i know later they are going to include Champions also but why we always have to be in this position since 2017.
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  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    I would not call the new instances mele unfriendly, you always will have mechanics were a ranged class has an advantage, but nothin game-breaking.
    For example, in every one of the new 6mans, you need to move out of the group because of eyes/aoe damage/puddles, etc., a mele class needs to stop dpsing at this point, were a ranged class can keep on going.
    There are also some mechanics a ranged class can simply out range, but the mele has to tank it.

    But this is how a ranged advantage in games works, meles just need to have certain other advantages to compensate for it.
    Which in the case of champs they don't have.
    Melee should have higher dmg and mits, for equalizing the time in which they can't attack and the penality of being melee and with this higher incoming dmg (auras,360).
    For burgs and wardens it works at least the higher dmg but not for champs.
    First step must be grant tac mit with vita for all classes.

  17. #167
    I started playing 5 years ago...had a 2 year pause...before I could get in instances very easily even if my lvl was the lowest..not I dont get into a fellowship that easily so the class needs some buff definitely...As I have returned just 2 months ago and still catching up level cap I dont really know why we are left out, but it seems pretty obvious something is wrong...

  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    What do you consider melee unfriendly in the new instances? For us, our standard setup is 2 melee, 1 ranged dps (Burg, Warden, Rk) and we haven't had any issues
    Generally speaking I consider melee unfriendly fights to be ones where the bosses mechanics create an uptime loss that ranged do not have to deal with.

    numerous knockbacks being one, boss dropping puddles under himself (larger than his own hitbox creating more uptime loss) being another.

    Melee also generally have lower tactical mit than ranged classes so fights which have a predominance of tactical damage usually fall into melee unfriendly terms for me as well.


    Using Nurzum as an example: the boss drops puddles under you, which is equally unfriendly to all classes, but he also drops puddles under himself which force you to move him out of those puddles to maintain dps.
    The rangers are terrible tanks and can't hold aggro for my life, so you're then left with melee range tankbusters being thrown your way in the solo fight, easy to outrange on range classes, have to be on your toes and frequently clipped anyways on melee classes.

    Or the mushrooms from wednesday in black lore, they pop and do a debuff in a short AoE around them. Melee classes take a nasty speed debuff, ranged classes can just outrange it.

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeddyToncek View Post
    I started playing 5 years ago...had a 2 year pause...before I could get in instances very easily even if my lvl was the lowest..not I dont get into a fellowship that easily so the class needs some buff definitely...As I have returned just 2 months ago and still catching up level cap I dont really know why we are left out, but it seems pretty obvious something is wrong...
    Its number of things that happen and made champions the less needed dps class.
    First of all was the instances design.Champions are mostly AOE dds, yellow line and AOE skills are in better condition and most instances since Mordors first expansion dont need so much AOE anymore like the old ones that have 10+targets to hit at the same time.So the first big hit for as was first Mordors expansion and you were lucky that didnt return in that period.It was the worst period for champions in whole LOTRO history.6 man instances and raid had melee unfriendly mechanics and champion had to go single all the time and our single target dps was even worst than it is today.
    Second hit was the weapon swapping mechanic that you are force to do or else the Red line is not viable.That create a huge gap between casual and hard core players.Weapon swapping and also the instances design make lots of champions to quit the class change main and start playing other classes that was easier and most wanted.
    Third reason was that Champion class never had a good balance pass in depth,every time that level cap increasing we dont upscale properly like other classes,some of our skills are same like when we were 105 lvl.That costs a lot not only to our base damage but also for our supporting skills like horn of Gondor and Rend armor debuf.As a result we offer less support for group from other dps classes.
    Fourth reason,classes that can do the same things with as had more attention from developers and as a result performs better,that makes champion not to be wanted anymore unless they are extremely good and the others are alts and not so experienced.
    At the moment champions are the last option for filling a group that need dps cause we offer less dps and less support than the other dps classes.If they dont find a good main rk,warden,burglar then they take champions and thats why we made this thread cause we left behind and we want to change that.

    Welcome back btw and lets hope the things will change soon.It needs only a good update for the class nothing more.
    Last edited by Arandour; Jan 25 2020 at 03:40 AM.
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  20. #170
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    I have a solution.

    Leave the class as it is, and whoever mains a Champion pays VIP only 1.99$/month.

  21. #171
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    And what about those of us with lifetime subs?
    Or those of us who want to play the content rather than just pay less?

    This is an issue which needs to be fixed. Not swept aside or hotfixed as it has been for the past several years.

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrplaneswalker View Post
    And what about those of us with lifetime subs?
    Or those of us who want to play the content rather than just pay less?

    This is an issue which needs to be fixed. Not swept aside or hotfixed as it has been for the past several years.
    Ohh, right. Sorry. I didn't think about that... I should have thought about something better. Sorry again...

  23. #173
    can you still get lifetime subs, or are they only one-time deals that are now gone?

  24. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by ConanHC View Post
    can you still get lifetime subs, or are they only one-time deals that are now gone?
    Other than sometimes being given out as prizes in Turbine contests you can no longer obtain these.

    They might, just might, honor a lifetime code if you were to find an unopened LifeTime Collector's Edition Box from 2009 somewhere and open it for the code.

  25. #175
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    How you perform in those 3 new 6 man instances on T3 compare to other classes guys? I manage to complete only Halls of Black Lore so far once.The first day i made some tries with out success to Nazguls and for one time i try the other one that we stack in last boss.Didnt have more chances to do them cause they mostly prefer wardens,burglars and Rks even that for Champions are nice instances and at least they can perform in there decently.
    Problem is that they made those burglars like some kinda OP champions with massive ST and AOE damage and the instances dont have so many adds that would make a champion more useful than them,Wardens do good AOE and better ST from as and yellow RKs have decent AOE and better ST so the instances maybe are ok for Champions but for them are perfect.
    Champions are not needed except they dont find one of those 3 classes something that is very rare to happen.I know its only the first week and probably things will change a bit later but i feel sad that always we have to be in this position.
    Since 2017 the same thing,first they made the instances melee unfriendly with no AOE needed at all and our ST was very low,in between people didnt want champions until they learn the instances,now they making the instances decent for melees from the start and we are under power.To be honest even if they buff up our St still the others will have the advantage.I think for as to can keep up with them our AOE need to be a bit buffed up too cause right now at least burglars for 3-4 targets can out dps as for sure,with the others for 4-6 targets probably we do the same or we are very close plus that they have the advantage of more ST damage.We cannot ST and AOE at the same time at high tiers with the same line,we have to change line all the time and we loose the buffs and the skills of the line.What can i say we will see what will happen in raid and lets hope we will get some attention since then.Many problems would be solved tho if they lower that huge dps output of those burglars or at least remove the AOE.
    Last edited by Arandour; Jan 28 2020 at 06:44 AM.
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