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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokor View Post
    In reality the percent of people here who are complaining and negative on forum all the days that God makes are less than 5% of all player and despite all they' still play and spend money in game. Hilarious isn't it ?
    Pontin Finnberry is right. The silent majority don't care about forum or false statment about SSG's greed and enjoy to play lotro.

    And the diminished population is the result of old age of lotro and his player base. New player are going on last new game not old school mmorpg.

    Time to admit it and move on. We should not give credit to a clickbait article and enjoy this gorgeous game.
    No. The population dwindled over time because of wide scale community disappointment in the business practices of first Turbine, then SSG.

    ...Shill harder. God wants you to shill harder on all the days that God makes.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hecki View Post
    I don't think that the grind is the problem.
    Maybe it is more the fact that lotro is 12 years old.
    And with this age of a game it is very hard to find new players.
    I think the devs here take every advertise they can get - good or bad. Everything counts.
    The most obvious reason for not finding new players is not that they are hard to find, but that the game system does not care if it gets them.

    If I would want to recruit fresh players for my kin, this would mean to spend high effort (new char (slot), stone of the tortoise, playing/leveling schedule) that is spent regardless if those players will actually stay for a longer time. Time that would be missing from cap grind, which would in term limit the type of content I can play there.

    IMO this game needs proper scaling content/possibilities. BBs could provide that, but they would need a massive revamp to unleash their potential (which is hidden quite well in their current implementations). Still half of the BBs (and BB trait points) are locked behind an L85 quest pack, which might not be the thing to buy for L20 players. One could even think about char scaling for old unscaled instances.

    There is also a need for a concept that does not put all payments (all content) BEFORE the largest part of population, but allows for incremental payments *while* meeting sufficient population.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Well, it certainly doesn't help. I wasn't really talking about "getting" new players, it's more about "keeping" them, when they come. Also, retention of vet players. Running a new alt now is not likely, not past level 100 anyway.
    How I said.. Lotro is 12 years old. Even when SSG take off the grind and make LOTRO completely free to play with every addon we wouldn't get so much new players as expected nor will they keeping them.
    In 2007 players come who didn't know anything about Lord of the Rings. They asked "Who the hell is Tolkien?!" - They saw LOTRO as just another MMO where they can level and maxed up their gear. That is now passè.
    The source code of this game is over 12 years old, and this makes LOTRO to a game for fans.
    This is why I am here. I want to see more of Middle Earth. Very much more. And I hope that SSG will keep going on with Lord the Rings Online.

    Yes, it is absolutly possible that with my point of view I ignore some kind of "pay to win"-stuff as long as no weapon or armor from the shop is better.
    What other people pay for leveling their weapons keeps LOTRO alive. And as a new player you want to explore Middle Earth, and for this you can use 1/5 of Scrolls.
    My current hunter for example have only the DPS and 3 skills on maximum. My offhand 0 scrolls. And I don't have any problem with leveling in Minas Morgul.
    Only when you want to go T3 instances as fast as possible it could be a problem. But I am very sure that this players will find a way to upgrade their weapons without paying money in the shop.
    Last edited by Hecki; Dec 03 2019 at 11:02 AM.
    .

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hecki View Post
    The source code of this game is over 12 years old, and this makes LOTRO to a game for fans.
    This is why I am here. I want to see more of Middle Earth. Very much more. And I hope that SSG will keep going on with Lord the Rings Online.

    Yes, it is absolutly possible that with my point of view I ignore some kind of "pay to win"-stuff as long as no weapon or armor from the shop is better.
    What other people pay for leveling their weapons keeps LOTRO alive. And as a new player you want to explore Middle Earth, and for this you can use 1/5 of Scrolls.
    My current hunter for example have only the DPS and 3 skills on maximum. My offhand 0 scrolls. And I don't have any problem with leveling in Minas Morgul.
    Only when you want to go T3 instances as fast as possible it could be a problem. But I am very sure that this players will find a way to upgrade their weapons without paying money in the shop.
    Wisely spoken. Amen!

  5. #155
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    I dunno, I see a lot of "off with his head!" posts, and yes, I agree with just about 9 out of ten complaints here in the forums, and yes, there are issues that make me shake my head.

    But it's still a fun game, and I have no issues at all with spending money on it. Since June, I've probably dropped $200 into it, and it's cheap compared to the 2 or 3 hours I play almost every night.

    Ahh, the benefits of my kids being grown up and moved out......

  6. #156
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    So here's what I see --

    The problem about the LI grind complaints isn't that they're groundless. There's a real problem here that the devs have acknowledged and are working on at whatever speed they're working on it.

    OTOH, those who think LOTRO can't retain new players because of a grind problem that kicks in at level 100 have a narrow impression of what a new player looks like that I'm pretty sure doesn't match reality. What pulls in a new player is more what things are like in the first half of the game -- SoA and Moria, I'd say. This game is HUGE AND LONG. Playing through to endgame takes a long time. I'm sure there are veteran MMO raiders from other games who are going to race through to endgame as fast as they can, but honestly I think most newbies like that will probably jump on something newer where they can get what they want faster. Raiders could possibly buy an Aria, but that's a big commitment to a game you don't know if you like. I have no idea how many do that, but the question then is what the Aria package looks like.

    The majority of people sticking their toe into the game aren't going to see the LI grind until they've already decided whether they like LOTRO.

    Secondly, the folks who post on this forum are not representative of the player base. They're skewed toward long-term, serious players. More folks here have strong feelings about the way things should be. More folks here have a sense that their opinion should have an effect on the game's direction. Most gamers in general just play a game as it is and either keep playing if they like it or stop if they don't. SSG is listening here, but they are also almost certainly balancing what they see with behavior stats from the player base as a whole. Maybe the player base really hates the LI grind as much as forum posters do, or maybe most of them have a play style where it doesn't bug them so much.

    Sometimes I think SSG focuses on the forums TOO much. The forum's a good way to reach hard-core gamers, but it doesn't seem to me like the best place to, say, let folks know the the Curator is back.

    Lastly, the issue many of us have with game criticism isn't with the content. It's with the TONE. This seems to just be a thing with video games, but that doesn't make it a good thing. You don't have to act like entitled jerks to get the devs to listen to you. It's possible to express these things with respect and perspective. Maybe you still won't get the changes you want, but I guarantee that piling on the vitriol does not increase the chances that the changes happen.
    Last edited by Echoweaver; Dec 03 2019 at 11:53 AM.
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  7. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidmeetHal View Post
    I agree with just about 9 out of ten complaints here in the forums, and yes, there are issues that make me shake my head.

    ... and I have no issues at all with spending money on it. Since June, I've probably dropped $200 into it,...

    If you don't see any inconsistency between these two statements...well...so be it. I'm sure the Devs are grateful for the cash.

  8. #158
    One argument against revamping the ILIs, pitched by the devs themselves, is that players have already invested an incredible amount into the items so they didn't want to devalue that prior effort. Now that people can splurge $50 per catch up box on their ILIs, surely that creates a situation where they have even more justification for doing nothing?

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echoweaver View Post
    So here's what I see --

    The problem about the LI grind complaints isn't that they're groundless. There's a real problem here that the devs have acknowledged and are working on at whatever speed they're working on it.

    OTOH, those who think LOTRO can't retain new players because of a grind problem that kicks in at level 100 have a narrow impression of what a new player looks like that I'm pretty sure doesn't match reality. What pulls in a new player is more what things are like in the first half of the game -- SoA and Moria, I'd say. This game is HUGE AND LONG. Playing through to endgame takes a long time. I'm sure there are veteran MMO raiders from other games who are going to race through to endgame as fast as they can, but honestly I think most newbies like that will probably jump on something newer where they can get what they want faster. Raiders could possibly buy an Aria, but that's a big commitment to a game you don't know if you like. I have no idea how many do that, but the question then is what the Aria package looks like.

    The majority of people sticking their toe into the game aren't going to see the LI grind until they've already decided whether they like LOTRO.

    Secondly, the folks who post on this forum are not representative of the player base. They're skewed toward long-term, serious players. More folks here have strong feelings about the way things should be. More folks here have a sense that their opinion should have an effect on the game's direction. Most gamers in general just play a game as it is and either keep playing if they like it or stop if they don't. SSG is listening here, but they are also almost certainly balancing what they see with behavior stats from the player base as a whole. Maybe the player base really hates the LI grind as much as forum posters do, or maybe most of them have a play style where it doesn't bug them so much.

    Sometimes I think SSG focuses on the forums TOO much. The forum's a good way to reach hard-core gamers, but it doesn't seem to me like the best place to, say, let folks know the the Curator is back.

    Lastly, the issue many of us have with game criticism isn't with the content. It's with the TONE. This seems to just be a thing with video games, but that doesn't make it a good thing. You don't have to act like entitled jerks to get the devs to listen to you. It's possible to express these things with respect and perspective. Maybe you still won't get the changes you want, but I guarantee that piling on the vitriol does not increase the chances that the changes happen.
    You can call it "narrow" if you want to, but i only have my own experience of being a new player to go on. I began playing just as Rohan launched and I levelled two characters to level 85 in about 6 months. The first took the longest as I did everything on that character, all quests, all deeds, and read everything. Then I brought the second character in, to have a healing class. I was in Erebor raids, as well as older, scaled raids not long after that. Couldn't do that if I was starting today.

    As for vitriol, take care with that name calling.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.

  10. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Aelbryht View Post
    One argument against revamping the ILIs, pitched by the devs themselves, is that players have already invested an incredible amount into the items so they didn't want to devalue that prior effort. Now that people can splurge $50 per catch up box on their ILIs, surely that creates a situation where they have even more justification for doing nothing?

    Exactly.

    The whole "we don't want to devalue all your hard work" now seems even more hilarious. Apparently $50 each went a long way to sooth those hesitancies.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echoweaver View Post
    So here's what I see --

    The problem about the LI grind complaints isn't that they're groundless. There's a real problem here that the devs have acknowledged and are working on at whatever speed they're working on it.....
    Has it actually been stated anywhere, explicitly, that the LI revamp is intended to substantially reduce the grind? Because what I've seen posted regarding an ILI revamp doesn't explicitly address that issue. In fact, what I have seen stated is, as someone else posted, that they didn't want to undermine the time / effort / money players have already put into their ILI. As also mentioned previously, the "catch up" box in the store, for $50 per ILI would tend to make that constraint even greater.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Why?

    Is it just because you worked for those scrolls and they won't have to?

    I worked for all mine too, but you know what. . . . I had years to put in the work, and I had years of benefit out of it. My LI's took me through all the level 100 content, through all the level 105 content, through Mordor, through the Northern Kingdoms, the Iron Hills, Ered Mithrin and the Vales, and they are now taking me though Minas Morgul, all while they were end game regions where I spent months doing the content. It's easy, because, I have put in the work through increments over time and reaped the benefits each time.

    You expect new players to put in all those years of work that you did, in a fraction of the time, while they won't gain any of the years of benefit that you have already enjoyed from yours.

    Think of it as you'd think of employment.

    You've done this job for five years. You've worked hard at it, you've been paid for it, and you've made good use out of your pay.
    For players joining the workforce now, they have to do that five years of work straight away, and once they've done it, then they'll be in the same place as us. They'll get paid, but only after they put in the five years worth (that's how long it took us) that you put in. Their benefit only begins now, they don't get the five years worth of benefit we have had.

    Imagine a new developer goes to an interview with a game company and at that interview they are told, that because their current devs have spent five years working on a system, they won't get paid until they put in five years worth of work. You think they'd stay?
    You can't be new player. Let new players talk about their problems on their own. It's not months by months, years by years. You spend for LI farming ~20-25 minutes per day. Even not every day. Help 100+ players find and kill RTs. Get scrolls. Go to EM instances. Get scrolls. Go to new instances. Get secrolls. Have enough marks and buy scrolls from skrimish camp. Your low level kinmates want to help you with RP or Helm's Deep, because you have ranks, and they don't have them? You get some merrits and can trade them too. You may be get 20 per week, or 15 per week, but sooner or later, you will be full. You even don't notice that, because you have different type of content every day. If someone decide not to spend any time for LI 3 years ago, that's difference between him and new player? Complete festival wrapper and daily quests, get some crystals. You still need that figments and that VXP, you still get that hundreds of festival tokens. Why don't spend it for something usefull? Don't forget - you spend your five years not only for LI farming. You complete everything else, and LI scrolls what you get was just one of rewards in list of many rewards. Game have 10-15 different ways to get scrolls, but you close your eyes and keep saying: "I don't want it, I don't care if this ways still exists, I just want to buy them from faction".

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    You can call it "narrow" if you want to, but i only have my own experience of being a new player to go on. I began playing just as Rohan launched and I levelled two characters to level 85 in about 6 months. The first took the longest as I did everything on that character, all quests, all deeds, and read everything. Then I brought the second character in, to have a healing class. I was in Erebor raids, as well as older, scaled raids not long after that. Couldn't do that if I was starting today.
    Sure, that's my experience too. I want to do everything once. Then, a couple of years later, I enjoy starting something new and doing all/most of it again.

    I personally don't think that getting a second toon quickly to endgame in a game with 12 years of content is a reasonable expectation without some kind of store thing. I also think that's a reasonable thing to sell stuff for. We can argue back and forth about whether that's true or not, and I'm sure it's about gaming priorities. Perspective is keeping in mind that there are a bunch of different play styles that need to be supported. Respect is not calling the devs names and ascribing every decision one doesn't like to greed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    As for vitriol, take care with that name calling.
    Sorry, but if the folks who are saying horrible things about the devs on this very thread can't handle being called entitled, there's the problem in a nutshell.
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  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKenny View Post
    Has it actually been stated anywhere, explicitly, that the LI revamp is intended to substantially reduce the grind? Because what I've seen posted regarding an ILI revamp doesn't explicitly address that issue. In fact, what I have seen stated is, as someone else posted, that they didn't want to undermine the time / effort / money players have already put into their ILI.
    It's my general impression that the SSG never talks about stuff in the same terms that forum folks use. They probably don't see it the same way because they have different information than we do.

    If they're doing a revamp, it's because they want something that's more fun for more players than we have before. So, yeah, I think it's fair to assume that the fact that a lot of players think the LI system feels grindy is something they want to fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by DKenny View Post
    As also mentioned previously, the "catch up" box in the store, for $50 per ILI would tend to make that constraint even greater.
    Yeah, so I don't think that catch up box says great things about the LI system either. But I think the assumption that leaving an unpleasant game system in place because players will pay money to skip it rather than leaving to play something else is a flawed.
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  15. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Elmagor View Post
    You can't be new player. Let new players talk about their problems on their own
    Except they won't because why go to the effort of creating a forum post when you are not at all invested in the game. It's much easier and more satisfying to just go to a different game. Hence this thing called empathy xD

  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echoweaver View Post
    But I think the assumption that leaving an unpleasant game system in place because players will pay money to skip it rather than leaving to play something else is a flawed.
    HAHA, this made my day.. If that where the case, why didn't they add the +10 tier or +5tiers scroll drops inside new instances, or from the reputation barterer?

    The LI system is great, it let you customize the weapon as you see fit... They simply need to make it easier to earn crystals/scrolls, we don't need a "revamp".. Stop talking like this is a hard issue to fix lol..

    The only reason they do nothing about it, is because players rather PAY to skip than farming 5 year old content.

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by LotroVidz View Post
    The LI system is great, it let you customize the weapon as you see fit... They simply need to make it easier to earn crystals/scrolls, we don't need a "revamp"
    Seems like a good perspective for them to consider.
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  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echoweaver View Post
    Sure, that's my experience too. I want to do everything once. Then, a couple of years later, I enjoy starting something new and doing all/most of it again.

    I personally don't think that getting a second toon quickly to endgame in a game with 12 years of content is a reasonable expectation without some kind of store thing. I also think that's a reasonable thing to sell stuff for. We can argue back and forth about whether that's true or not, and I'm sure it's about gaming priorities. Perspective is keeping in mind that there are a bunch of different play styles that need to be supported. Respect is not calling the devs names and ascribing every decision one doesn't like to greed.



    Sorry, but if the folks who are saying horrible things about the devs on this very thread can't handle being called entitled, there's the problem in a nutshell.
    Yeah, it wasn't "entitled" I was referring to . . . but you know that already.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmagor View Post
    You can't be new player. Let new players talk about their problems on their own. It's not months by months, years by years. You spend for LI farming ~20-25 minutes per day. Even not every day. Help 100+ players find and kill RTs. Get scrolls. Go to EM instances. Get scrolls. Go to new instances. Get secrolls. Have enough marks and buy scrolls from skrimish camp. Your low level kinmates want to help you with RP or Helm's Deep, because you have ranks, and they don't have them? You get some merrits and can trade them too. You may be get 20 per week, or 15 per week, but sooner or later, you will be full. You even don't notice that, because you have different type of content every day. If someone decide not to spend any time for LI 3 years ago, that's difference between him and new player? Complete festival wrapper and daily quests, get some crystals. You still need that figments and that VXP, you still get that hundreds of festival tokens. Why don't spend it for something usefull? Don't forget - you spend your five years not only for LI farming. You complete everything else, and LI scrolls what you get was just one of rewards in list of many rewards. Game have 10-15 different ways to get scrolls, but you close your eyes and keep saying: "I don't want it, I don't care if this ways still exists, I just want to buy them from faction".
    I would, except all the ones I know have already left. Roll an alt fresh - no valar, you'll get the picture soon enough.

    You're still talking about doing all the content that we did - over years. Stretched out, and while it was still relevant content. It's not relevant anymore, because . . . it's old content now, old content that new players shouldn't need to hang back in - for moths.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.

  20. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Echoweaver View Post

    Sorry, but if the folks who are saying horrible things about the devs on this very thread can't handle being called entitled, there's the problem in a nutshell.


    Which "horrible things" were you speaking of specifically? It's easy to throw that accusation out, and everyone who agrees with you nods their head...but what exactly was said that was so "horrible" concerning the Devs?

  21. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Yeah, it wasn't "entitled" I was referring to . . . but you know that already.
    Lovely job of ignoring everything else.
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  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echoweaver View Post
    Seems like a good perspective for them to consider.
    Only heard players complain about horrendous grind, not the LI system itself. Devs cant have missed that.

  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hecki View Post
    I don't think that the grind is the problem.
    Maybe it is more the fact that lotro is 12 years old.
    And with this age of a game it is very hard to find new players.
    I think the devs here take every advertise they can get - good or bad. Everything counts.
    Age is far from the problem*

    One of the most popular games (despite being relatively similar in age to LOTRO) is a pixelated block builder that was originally written in java.




    *technical makeup of the game aside, which is more of a side-effect of changing hands multiple times

  24. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echoweaver View Post
    Lovely job of ignoring everything else.
    Lovely job of not addressing the intended word I was talking about. But . . . Sorry, my bad, I supposed you are "entitled" to response. Here we go then . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Echoweaver View Post
    Sure, that's my experience too. I want to do everything once. Then, a couple of years later, I enjoy starting something new and doing all/most of it again.

    I personally don't think that getting a second toon quickly to endgame in a game with 12 years of content is a reasonable expectation without some kind of store thing. I also think that's a reasonable thing to sell stuff for. We can argue back and forth about whether that's true or not, and I'm sure it's about gaming priorities. Perspective is keeping in mind that there are a bunch of different play styles that need to be supported. Respect is not calling the devs names and ascribing every decision one doesn't like to greed.
    Well, I did it without any store items, but, its quite irrelevant. Let's drop the second alt from the picture, and just concentrate on one. Same deal!

    Yes, all play styles should be supported, but often, they are not.

    I haven't seen anyone calling any dev a name. Maybe I missed it, but I'll take a scan through the thread later to see if I can find it. it must be in here right? If it is, then you have my backing - it's not needed in debate. Neither is calling other players names when they have a different opinion than you.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.

  25. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echoweaver View Post
    Lovely job of ignoring everything else.
    Arnenna is often right and are a valuable contributor. And personally i have more pleasure to read his answers.

    You should stop reacting like this and harassing.

 

 
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