More bad publicity.. another negative article!

[Askelin]

Who Cares? Its just an LI catch up item that no one is forced to buy, players who want to speed up the process will buy it, while others who don't want it will continue playing the game as they always have.

I think a lot of people care. And you should too if you value the health of this MMO.
Every time someone brings up the issue of 'pay to win', regardless of what you think of the term or whatever their particular grievance might be, there will be a select bunch of people who dismiss it with comments such as yours.
"Who cares?"
"You don't actually have to buy it"
"It doesn't affect the game"
It's these sorts of dismissive comments which really shows the attitude of players who have just delved into blind loyalty of the game company. In truth, these articles talking about these issues are what people see when googling about the state of this game and it does not give a good impression. When even MassivelyOP stops giving your MMO constant praise then you know you have a problem because face it, what other sites are even talking about lotro in 2019?
It's this sort of attitude that warrants these negative articles being written in the first place.
Everyone knows why this store item exists, everyone knows that the post 100 LI grind is terrible and even the developers admit that it's problematic... Their solution? Simply add a method to buy the grind away without actually fixing the issues at hand to bring a fairer experience to everyone.
It's a common f2p market practice to have a pay wall or grind that you can pay to lessen the burden and fair enough, you need players spending for a game to even be worth keeping online. But of late there has been a myriad of issues that the developers have simply swept under the rug in favor of adding incentives to use the game store, this one being probably the most brazen recently added. The grind has simply gotten worse every update and instead of dealing with the problem firsthand they add yet another way to spend your money.
It doesn't matter whether an individual will buy this store item or not, the fact is if enough people buy it (or hell, if even one person buys it for the price it's set as) it gives the publishers and developers a sign that they should continue this sort of practice.
I don't even blame SSG at this point, I actually pity them... It's common knowledge that Daybreak as a publisher attempts to milk as much as they can from older games that have clearly gone past its prime. But in the long run this will surely kill whatever is left of the otherwise humble and loyal community around this fantastic game... It's kind of sad really because I know the developers probably care about this game, the storyline and world building is consistently excellent considering the dated engine they have to work with. But they're being crushed by restrictive deadlines and more or less forced to bow to this cashgrab mentality... And it certainly shows by looking at these these last few updates.
The sad truth is, you're not even paying for content at this point, you're literally paying for numbers and stats to rise so your character can dish out enough numbers on enemies so you can continue to play the game past a certain level.

[LotroVidz]

I think a lot of people care. And you should too if you value the health of this MMO.
Every time someone brings up the issue of 'pay to win', regardless of what you think of the term or whatever their particular grievance might be, there will be a select bunch of people who dismiss it with comments such as yours.
"Who cares?"
"You don't actually have to buy it"
"It doesn't affect the game"
It's these sorts of dismissive comments which really shows the attitude of players who have just delved into blind loyalty of the game company. In truth, these articles talking about these issues are what people see when googling about the state of this game and it does not give a good impression. When even MassivelyOP stops giving your MMO constant praise then you know you have a problem because face it, what other sites are even talking about lotro in 2019?
It's this sort of attitude that warrants these negative articles being written in the first place.
Everyone knows why this store item exists, everyone knows that the post 100 LI grind is terrible and even the developers admit that it's problematic... Their solution? Simply add a method to buy the grind away without actually fixing the issues at hand to bring a fairer experience to everyone.
It's a common f2p market practice to have a pay wall or grind that you can pay to lessen the burden and fair enough, you need players spending for a game to even be worth keeping online. But of late there has been a myriad of issues that the developers have simply swept under the rug in favor of adding incentives to use the game store, this one being probably the most brazen recently added. The grind has simply gotten worse every update and instead of dealing with the problem firsthand they add yet another way to spend your money.
It doesn't matter whether an individual will buy this store item or not, the fact is if enough people buy it (or hell, if even one person buys it for the price it's set as) it gives the publishers and developers a sign that they should continue this sort of practice.
I don't even blame SSG at this point, I actually pity them... It's common knowledge that Daybreak as a publisher attempts to milk as much as they can from older games that have clearly gone past its prime. But in the long run this will surely kill whatever is left of the otherwise humble and loyal community around this fantastic game... It's kind of sad really because I know the developers probably care about this game, the storyline and world building is consistently excellent considering the dated engine they have to work with. But they're being crushed by restrictive deadlines and more or less forced to bow to this cashgrab mentality... And it certainly shows by looking at these these last few updates.
The sad truth is, you're not even paying for content at this point, you're literally paying for numbers and stats to rise so your character can dish out enough numbers on enemies so you can continue to play the game past a certain level.

In most games paying for stats = p2w. Sad what Lotro has become since SSG took over. Not that it was all good with Turbine, but its gotten much much worse with SSG behind the wheel.

[jokor]

In reality the percent of people here who are complaining and negative on forum all the days that God makes are less than 5% of all player and despite all they' still play and spend money in game. Hilarious isn't it ?
Pontin Finnberry is right. The silent majority don't care about forum or false statment about SSG's greed and enjoy to play lotro.

And the diminished population is the result of old age of lotro and his player base. New player are going on last new game not old school mmorpg.

Time to admit it and move on. We should not give credit to a clickbait article and enjoy this gorgeous game.

[Elmagor]

In reality the percent of people here who are complaining and negative on forum all the days that God makes are less than 5% of all player and despite all they' still play and spend money in game. Hilarious isn't it ?
Pontin Finnberry is right. The silent majority don't care about forum or false statment about SSG's greed and enjoy to play lotro.

And the diminished population is the result of old age of lotro and his player base. New player are going on last new game not old school mmorpg.

Time to admit it and move on. We should not give credit to a clickbait article and enjoy this gorgeous game.

Ok. Let's imagine what someone don't care about LI grind for 3 years (some of this people already post their vision of such problem here). To catch up other players who get some scrolls, or even players who have full/almost full LI, such people right now WANT to get HUGE amount of scrolls/crystals. They keep saying what they care about new players, but this people NOT a new players in old. They play for years and just don't care about LI. If some people get 100+ scrolls and 30+ crystals for free, I will be angry, because they get them for free just because they cry about that on forums. No one say about spending days and days for LI grind. But if you have 122 & 130 run in School, it takes around 20-25 minutes per day. As already someone say about, it's not problem to get scome scrolls, but people want to jump years of developement. You have multiple sources for scrolls, even new instances drop them. And you can complete any content in the game without full LI. Yes, that 5% of all players base just want attention and want to make huge noise about their demands.

[DavidmeetHal]

In reality the percent of people here who are complaining and negative on forum all the days that God makes are less than 5% of all player and despite all they' still play and spend money in game. Hilarious isn't it ?
Pontin Finnberry is right. The silent majority don't care about forum or false statment about SSG's greed and enjoy to play lotro.

And the diminished population is the result of old age of lotro and his player base. New player are going on last new game not old school mmorpg.

Time to admit it and move on. We should not give credit to a clickbait article and enjoy this gorgeous game.

I see what you're saying, and I agree with it, but I think that the feedback here in the forums is still important.

[Hecki]

I see what you're saying, and I agree with it, but I think that the feedback here in the forums is still important.

Indeed it is important.

But I would like to see some of these new players (we talked about and figured out what problems they will have) here in the discussion.
When we talk about new players and their problems it would be useful to hear new player voices.

[Narthalion]

While y'all are having yourselves a rant party here, many other people are playing the game, paying for VIP, buying things from the store, and generally being happy to support the company that makes the game they enjoy.

The fact that you think such satisfaction with the game is a fantasy... is really very, very sad.

The fact that you are incapable of discerning the line between criticism and abuse is even sadder, and makes me concerned for you on a personal level.

Now if you'll excuse me... I'm off to the happy, friendly room filled with people who enjoy the game. Enjoy your anger, if you can.

Interesting.

In this "happy room" that you speak of, is it only the "happy" people who spend money on LOTRO? Because in real life, there are a lot of players frustrated with the direction of the game who are still (reluctantly) supporting it.

"Satisfaction with the game" is NOT necessarily a fantasy. However, denying that there are some very serious issues with the direction SSG has deliberately taken LOTRO over the last several years IS a fantasy.

And finally, one of us does indeed appear to be unable to discern "the line between criticism and abuse". But to see him, you'll probably have to look in a mirror.

[Arnenna]

Indeed it is important.

But I would like to see some of these new players (we talked about and figured out what problems they will have) here in the discussion.
When we talk about new players and their problems it would be useful to hear new player voices.

A bit difficult to hear the voices of people that abandon the game as soon as they reach level 100 and see what's in front of them. Ask yourself the question . . .why are they not on the forum? They've left the game, that's why.

I've seen 8 players leave over this in the last 6 months alone. Asked them, to go to the forum and make a complaint, to be met with the answer . . . it's a pay wall, so no point, they don't remove pay walls, they only create them.

The game will never retain new players while this grind exists. Hence, why we see relatively tiny numbers of new players here on the forum. Don't forget either, new players don't even see this grind until they are level 100. Up to that point, there are no essences, the gear grinds are reasonable, LI's have been easy to keep up with. Then they hit level 100 and it's like hitting a brick wall.

[DKenny]

In reality the percent of people here who are complaining and negative on forum all the days that God makes are less than 5% of all player and despite all they' still play and spend money in game.....

And 95% of statistics are just made up.

[Arnenna]

And 95% of statistics are just made up.

Yup, grabbed out of a hat.

There is some truth in the saying "happy people don't complain", however there is also truth in the saying "people that leave, don't complain" also.

[soltasword]

In reality the percent of people here who are complaining and negative on forum all the days that God makes are less than 5% of all player and despite all they' still play and spend money in game. Hilarious isn't it ?
Pontin Finnberry is right. The silent majority don't care about forum or false statment about SSG's greed and enjoy to play lotro.

And the diminished population is the result of old age of lotro and his player base. New player are going on last new game not old school mmorpg.

Time to admit it and move on. We should not give credit to a clickbait article and enjoy this gorgeous game.

Just because someone doesn't come to the forum to post about anything doesn't mean they don't care, it just means they don't post here. Many people post on other websites and forums as this is not the only forum about lotro. And even though there are not as many posters here as there used to be, a lot of the points brought up are really good ones. Whether positive or negative. And sure those same people are still playing the game because they enjoy it and still spending money because they want to support the game and see it continue. But there are a lot of people that see things like this and think cash grab. Lots not actually fix the issue but sell something in the store as a bandaid approach. And I for one did not spend money on the new xpac. SSG failed to deliver on the crafting update and I voiced my opinion on it both here and with my wallet. First xpac in 10 years I didn't buy. That should speak volumes to SSG but I know it just falls on deaf ears because they stopped really caring about the game and starting only caring about how much money they can squeeze out of those of us left.

[Hallandil]

Yup, grabbed out of a hat.

There is some truth in the saying "happy people don't complain", however there is also truth in the saying "people that leave, don't complain" also.

I mean, there was a reason why thousands of people queued for the Legendary Server, whom wouldn't play the regular game.

[maartena]

I feel like this "Catch Up" box would not have been seen as a problem if they presented it like this:

"Here is a catch up box for 4995 LP if you want it all now, BUT we will also offer the 5-count and 10-count Scrolls of Empowerment in-game with these new daily quests or through these barterers".

Right now, it kinds of looks like "We'll let you fix it with money, but we will give no incentives in the game to get more scrolls".

[Moln]

That room is full of people who complain about funding my paycheck, and who believe that funding my paycheck means they're entitled to subject me to abuse.

There's another room, though, full of people who are happy to fund my paycheck, who enjoy my work, who submit feedback in constructive and helpful ways, and who are genuinely a delight to be around.

I think I'll hang around in that other room, and ignore the one full of venom. Wouldn't you?

If there's enough people in your happy room to keep you going, I suppose.

But you might want to figure out why people keep leaving your happy room to join the venom room.

[Laura_of_Dor-lomin]

I also perused the comments following the article and it looks like Hurin (I'm sure most of you remember Hurin) posted there under the name "cambruin." Sure has his signature language in it. Arnenna, agree?

I think I can state pretty confidently that cambruin is not Hurin. And that Hurin would even disavow some of the more over-the-top moralistic language used by cambruin over there in decrying the business model.

I wouldn't want to speculate, and wouldn't cough up my thoughts on it even if I did

Good policy! Nobody wants words mis-attributed to them. Especially when they can't respond!

Incidentally, there is/was a "cambruin" here on these forums. And here is at least one case of Cambruin and Hurin being spotted together in the same place.

[Palenen]

I mean, there was a reason why thousands of people queued for the Legendary Server, whom wouldn't play the regular game.

My guess was they made the LS to attain data and logs from players so they could adjust chunks of the game a little at a time patching and fixing the whole game changes since Mordor. Subscribers are the testers. Works so well.

Spend roughly $50.00 to level a single item in game?

[Arnenna]

Good policy! Nobody wants words mis-attributed to them. Especially when they can't respond!

Correct. Hence, I won't even quote a name.

[Agollas]

If some people get 100+ scrolls and 30+ crystals for free, I will be angry

It is kind of like buying a house.

People who have been around for a while have been able to take out a "mortgage". They can "pay" their scrolls in small instalments as the level cap increases.

New players are having to "buy" the house outright.


Imagine if these weapons didn't have legendary in the title, and instead as each level cap increases you had to trade one weapon in in order to get the next one up, forcing you to grind that content before you can move on to the next. Would that seem fair?

By "getting 100+ scrolls and 30+ crystals for free", they would be essentially missing the grind from dailies intended to keep the players busy while they are waiting for new content, the same way that new players don't have to grind the armour/gear/essences from lower level caps.


Yes of course a player doesn't need an LI to play content. But that's like saying why bother with armour because you can run in naked and the rest of the group can carry you.

[Arnenna]

If some people get 100+ scrolls and 30+ crystals for free, I will be angry, because they get them for free just because they cry about that on forums.

Why?

Is it just because you worked for those scrolls and they won't have to?

I worked for all mine too, but you know what. . . . I had years to put in the work, and I had years of benefit out of it. My LI's took me through all the level 100 content, through all the level 105 content, through Mordor, through the Northern Kingdoms, the Iron Hills, Ered Mithrin and the Vales, and they are now taking me though Minas Morgul, all while they were end game regions where I spent months doing the content. It's easy, because, I have put in the work through increments over time and reaped the benefits each time.

You expect new players to put in all those years of work that you did, in a fraction of the time, while they won't gain any of the years of benefit that you have already enjoyed from yours.

Think of it as you'd think of employment.

You've done this job for five years. You've worked hard at it, you've been paid for it, and you've made good use out of your pay.
For players joining the workforce now, they have to do that five years of work straight away, and once they've done it, then they'll be in the same place as us. They'll get paid, but only after they put in the five years worth (that's how long it took us) that you put in. Their benefit only begins now, they don't get the five years worth of benefit we have had.

Imagine a new developer goes to an interview with a game company and at that interview they are told, that because their current devs have spent five years working on a system, they won't get paid until they put in five years worth of work. You think they'd stay?

[LotroVidz]

Ok. Let's imagine what someone don't care about LI grind for 3 years (some of this people already post their vision of such problem here). To catch up other players who get some scrolls, or even players who have full/almost full LI, such people right now WANT to get HUGE amount of scrolls/crystals. They keep saying what they care about new players, but this people NOT a new players in old. They play for years and just don't care about LI. If some people get 100+ scrolls and 30+ crystals for free, I will be angry, because they get them for free just because they cry about that on forums. No one say about spending days and days for LI grind. But if you have 122 & 130 run in School, it takes around 20-25 minutes per day. As already someone say about, it's not problem to get scome scrolls, but people want to jump years of developement. You have multiple sources for scrolls, even new instances drop them. And you can complete any content in the game without full LI. Yes, that 5% of all players base just want attention and want to make huge noise about their demands.

It's a game and it's supposedto be fun... there is nothing fun in farming old content for months. We are talking about a weapon inside a video game!!! You shouldnt have to be at a crossroad where you either have to grind for an insane amount of time or pay 50$ for a single LI to be up to date. Cant you hear how ridiculous that sounds..

The world is so empty now because none is willing to level alts, and there are barely any new players that would even attempt this pay to skip MMO.

[Gorikon]

And you can complete any content in the game without full LI.

Well, that is simply not true. A freshly imbued weapon has maybe one third of the DPS of one with all crystals applied. A healing book/satches/whatever has maybe one third of the HPS. There is content which you could complete with those values, but landscape alone will be a lot harder, and no one will take you into a T2 instance, let alone T3.

My wife and I used to play together. She lost the interest in the game about two and a half years ago. Three months ago, she asked, "Hey, I could bring my Mini to lvl 120 and heal some instances for you". And i answered, "Uhm, no, you can't, you need to grind a lot of crystals and scrolls first, else you won't heal a thing". End of story, she did't return to LotRo.

[Crax2]

Our behaviour as players is strangely paradoxical. I am certainly one of those who finds the LI grind seriously off-putting and, like many others, I genuinely take issue with the cynical game mechanics & monetization. Yet despite this not only do I continue to play the game but I also, from time to time, spend real money in the LoTRO store. I get annoyed with myself for doing it because I *KNOW* that I am allowing myself to be exploited. I have no issue with SSG making money, they are, after all, a business but what gets under my skin is that fact that nowadays they use every possible device to drive players to the store. We actually end up rewarding SSG for the behaviour that many of us find so abhorrent...…………...so who can blame them for endlessly continuing to do it? It is almost as if we are all suffering from the MMO equivalent of Stockholm Syndrome!

The one truism in all this (and it is a regularly cited counter argument from players who see no issue with grind/monetization) is that, ultimately, we have a choice. We can either play the game and accept its faults or we can walk away. Whilst I would like to kid myself that lots of constructive criticism might persuade SSG to change course the reality is that they are locked into this business model which must be working for them or they would have stopped.

I returned to LoTRO 12 months ago after a long absence, I have mostly enjoyed the journey but now it has reached the point that (for me) the negative aspects outweigh the positives and so I will depart once my current subscription expires at the end of this month. I no longer wish to reward my captors! One sub lost is no biggie for SSG or the game as a whole but I wonder how many others are making the same decision?

[Sealana]

One one hand I do not care about store items and so called pay to win. On the other, LI system in the curent state needs to go. It's irritating, time consuming, difficult for beginers and returning players, and most of all it's unbalanced and in case of 2h Lis absolutely stupid. Look at the stats on the curent endgame non-legendary weapon and shield; classes that are forced to use two-handers lose several thousand of their main stat, vitality and secondary raitings in comparison to the classes that can use one handers.

So I strongly believe that LI system shall be turned in to something similar to Deeds system. A list of legacies for one's class, can equip 7 at a time, just like the curent Deeds work. It will allow us to use modern, up to date weapons while keeping our legacy traits intact and it will also solve LI swap issue, which honestly got out of hand with some people swapping thier items for every skill they use.

I think the initial Li system should stay untill Imbue as it is. But Imbue shall be the crucial point of turning your old LI into a deed like skills/traits/legacies. Keep scrolls, crystals, whatever one needs to upgrade lagacies, but make them accesable through all the comnent past imbue, not just MT daylies.

Just wanted to say. If we get 1 more system that works like deeds I'll crouch under my armchair and start to howl to the moon. No more boring, repetitive brainless quests please.

[Hecki]

The game will never retain new players while this grind exists.

I don't think that the grind is the problem.
Maybe it is more the fact that lotro is 12 years old.
And with this age of a game it is very hard to find new players.
I think the devs here take every advertise they can get - good or bad. Everything counts.

[Arnenna]

I don't think that the grind is the problem.

Well, it certainly doesn't help. I wasn't really talking about "getting" new players, it's more about "keeping" them, when they come. Also, retention of vet players. Running a new alt now is not likely, not past level 100 anyway.