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  1. #26
    As a LM, I've had no problem in general healing on T3; it just requires religious usage of water lore, CC immunity, debuffs, and a proper attention to detail and surroundings. The LM is able to contribute plenty in these new 3-mans, being able to provide sufficient healing, debuffs, CC immunity, debuff removal assistance, and some off-tanking via bear. What honestly makes or breaks these groups is the capability of the main tank. If the main tank doesn't have good mits, good aggro management, and good awareness the group will suffer wipes regardless of how capable everyone else is. As long as the tank is capable, the LM should have no problem healing, even on T3.
    Ughh...another one of those mad, hungry hobbits with a sword...

    Mydiel Pineapple 130 LM The Pirate Alliance Landroval

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaerArianrhod View Post
    You right: if the others in the group don't know how to play with an LM in the group, it can be a terrible experience.

    But with the other things you said, you'r not always right.
    I did T3 runs with my LM (with a quite ideal group setup for me: captain + rk). For the trash groups the RK and me was on DPS. (there are now really enough points there, to be able to go down in yellow to be able to spread fire- & frost-lore with wind-lore), water lore + light of hope was enough heal for the captain. For the boss-fights i was doing the DPS and the RK was the healer. This may took a bit longer as with other setups, but it was quite safe for boss fights. And even in some boss fights both of us (the RK and me) was on dps and i used the bear (which can tank again really good) to take over the boss (aka tank swapping).

    The LM can do really good damage, of course it is depending on gear/stats but mostly the damage is depending on crits.

    About the healing-LM:
    Since SSG changed the way how tactical mastery contribute to outgoing healing, we need two gear setups - if we want heal as before.
    But they are just two things i would like to see:
    - increased radius for beacon of hope: something like 8m or 10m
    - a more and better integrated pleasant breeze into yellow line
    Thank you CaerArianrhod!
    I always like to read your comments, its look like you are a very good LM.
    Regarding to DPS LM, I kindly disagree with you.
    LM should not, and IMO actually cant, dps at high tier instances and raids- LOTRO already took care of that so I'm fine with it.
    I believe that in your runs, the main DPS was from the RK, your contribution to the overall DPS was less than 10%, even much less.
    After you add approx. 250k-260k finesse for T3 you need to take a decision: focus on tac mastery and crit for DPS or to add also some mits just to survive one/two shots.
    (with the current gear, U 25.0.3, it's just not possible to cap any of these…)
    If you decided to focus only on DPS you will be one/two shot very often and will be a burden on the healer/resurrection (rez during combat).
    Even so, your DPS will be still relatively very very low- sure you can do some burst of damage for a very short of time but during the time (DPS) it's very very low, mainly because of long CD's and lack of high dps skills.
    If you will run this in a DD role it will be like banging a nail with a shoe, it will take a lot of time and no one will be want to run like this- maybe your friends only.
    It's safe- yes, after/before the burst of dps you can put your debuff's and spam your low dps skills until the major dps skills will finish their CD's- and it's going to take long and boring time.
    Maybe after the new raid we will get some new possibilities to change it or to make it better.
    My feeling here is that if we (LM's) can get improved healing possibilities (range, rez during combat and some mass healing skills) we can fit much better in any group and situations.
    Sincerely
    Mel

  3. #28
    CaerArianrhod's Avatar
    CaerArianrhod is offline Rohirrim Scout
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melkorben View Post
    Thank you CaerArianrhod!
    I always like to read your comments, its look like you are a very good LM.
    Thx!

    Quote Originally Posted by Melkorben View Post
    Regarding to DPS LM, I kindly disagree with you.
    LM should not, and IMO actually cant, dps at high tier instances and raids- LOTRO already took care of that so I'm fine with it.
    I believe that in your runs, the main DPS was from the RK, your contribution to the overall DPS was less than 10%, even much less.
    It seems we will not have an agreement about our DPS.
    What the fact is, that we do not have a really good single target DPS -even if one have a staff with legacies for single target DPS. But with proper use of the cash-outs it is still a good damage. We have however a very high burst damage with our AoE DPS skills (right, you said that too!). Improved Sticky Gourd is the only skill, what really need higher base and a much higher DoT damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melkorben View Post
    After you add approx. 250k-260k finesse for T3
    I don't think that we need that much.
    I'm, running now with approx. 180K. I see some "resisted", but many times this is the old discussion about air-lore and it's secondary effects. A good amount will be between 200-220K.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melkorben View Post
    My feeling here is that if we (LM's) can get improved healing possibilities (range, rez during combat and some mass healing skills) we can fit much better in any group and situations.
    We had only one run on T5 - before SSG closed the instance and T5- again with captain + rk. I was the healer. After we made use of the ancient technique called "crowd control" the instance was not that a big problem on T5. And i'm just running with approx 37% outgoing healing. My 180K finesse was ok. Really not at the point i would prefer, but it was something i could work with.

  4. #29
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    The main problem is that so many players prefer not to run any 3/3 MM instances with LM's- even T1 (its slow them down…)
    Right… And wrong. LM is my main character. My role in 3-men instance : heal, debuff and a little dps, when everything goes well.

    LM's cant dps there, and its OK- they should not, but also can't really take the healer role either.
    Right… And wrong. For 2 of the 4 instances, healing with LM is quite simple, even in T3. It works with a little bit of communication between LM and tank.

    The LM healing role problem is mainly because:
    1. Very low Healing range: its force the LM to come into the puddles, or other major AOE effects, that burn the LM very fast or one shot him.
    You're damned right. Something like 25 m range, as any other healer, should be good. Plus, LM can't heal while running, so it is quite justified.

    2. Cant heal more than one target: -major problem- 4 meter range with Beacon of Hope is just not enough and its also leave the LM with no self-healing affect.
    You're damned right !!!! That's insane, as the bosses are very huge since the 2 past extentions !
    And even when I have to heal 2 melee guys, a tank and a champ/burg, that are figthing a "tiny" boss (an orc f.e.), this skill only affect one of them.
    It's quite impossible to reach the both (or you will get on their nerves..."STICK TOGETHER !! STICK CLOSER TOGETHEEEEER !!").
    Even when I try to heal myself by this way, most of time it fails : I try to stick another player, cast the skill on him… Then he moves only one toe, one MICRO TOE…
    At least, it should be 8-10 m around the target. AT LEAST !

    3. Cant Rez during fights: lore-master should have this skill before all the others- please add it already!
    Well... I think it's an interessant part of the LM. We are also the only class than can rez itself (well, when it works, but still !).
    And when the tank is in difficulty, we can send the bear on it, so that the tank can be able to come up for air (a very little moment, but often, its enough).

    4. Water lore should: Heal Initially, Heal more than one target, Have more pulses and Heal always the LM-even if it will cast on allies.
    In my opinion it's a part of the difficulty ! It would be too easy !
    About the last suggestion, why not, even if I think it should be more equilibrate to put this effect on the Beacon of Hope, instead.
    When your tank is an guardian, he can protect you with the "shield" ; when it's a captain or beo, they heal, and can rez.
    So most of the time, this auto-heal would not be necessary, you will just have to manage the water lore healing between the tank and you, when you're in difficulty… But I agree, in some specific situation, it could be usefull.

    5. Add one emergency mass healing skill with relatively long cd- Wisdom of the Council skill can easily be this one.
    If only we could heal by 25 m range, I think this emergency skill would be sufficient like it is today.
    From Sirannon [FR] - Please, be easy on my english level !

  5. #30
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    Once again:
    LM cant DPS in T5 stuffs- period!
    The contribution to the overall DPS is less than 5% so why even bother.
    Nevertheless if someone still want to dps in T5, beside a very cool display/show of lightning, fire and smoke all around, he will cause sever lag issues, root himself at place with these animations and gain less time to heal/support the group (if he want to cashout the maximum from his dps skills…).
    In fact, many good players asking from LM's in advance not dps at all from the same reasons above (DPS non relevant, better time management on healing/support, avoid sever lag issues…).

    LM is less than half healer, and this is with fire and frost lore's up.
    As i already said, mainly because of low healing range, long CD's, lack of real ability to heal more than one player and total low output healing magnitude (together with all healing skill's).
    If you run T5 with good players (good tank and DD) they can bear it and it is possible, sure not optimal and fast but possible.
    If you ask me- it's also not so fun either to be on the edge most of the time.

    For those who still not agree with me and sure that LM's are great healers I want to ask them this:
    1. How many are asking for LM's to join for Filth-well T5 runs?
    2. How many LM's succeed to run Filth-well at T5?
    3. And how many of them can find a group that are willing to run like this every week- not because they are kin mates/friend's but because you are a very good spot as an healer/supporter for Filth-well?
    Last edited by Melkorben; Dec 19 2019 at 09:33 AM.

  6. #31
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    A few questions for you. Do you have a Lore-master? Are they your main? What level are they? Or is this entire thread an opinion hit piece.

    LMs have their place, and if the other players know how to play with a LM, the LM is a viable member of any 3 or 6 man group or raid.
    Ujest - 130 Lore-master, Opun Tia - 105 Warden, Veneur - 75 Hunter, Cneasai - 61 Minstrel, plus alts and mules
    Officer, Pipeweed and Ale, Arkenstone (formerly Friends of Frodo, Vilya)

  7. #32
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    If you know the class he can fit well.I did all 4 new instances with LM in group at T5.Group was CPT,champion,LM.From what i sow depending the situation he was tanking with pet,healing, even dpsing.Ofc probably you need a kin group to do those things cause i doubt if anyone at LFF will ask for LM for those instances unless he knows well the potentials of the LM.
    Arandour Champion Rank 12-Nerien Hunter rank 11-Runendir RK Rank 7
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  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandolf_TheOld View Post
    LMs have their place, and if the other players know how to play with a LM, the LM is a viable member of any 3 or 6 man group or raid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    If you know the class he can fit well.I did all 4 new instances with LM in group at T5.Group was CPT,champion,LM.From what i sow depending the situation he was tanking with pet,healing, even dpsing.Ofc probably you need a kin group to do those things cause i doubt if anyone at LFF will ask for LM for those instances unless he knows well the potentials of the LM.
    IMO these comments summarize the current situation quite nicely. Good LM combined with the group that knows how to play with LM do fine in many instances. But not all players have a luxury of a good "LM aware group" to play regularly with. Especially if you try to join PUG's for random runs it is pain since you will not be selected in any of the "need Tank/DPS/Heal" requests.

    So having a line which would naturally fit in one of those three main roles would solve that problem. My preference would be to have blue line tailored for the healing role, since currently the blue line is pretty pointless.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forodir View Post
    IMO these comments summarize the current situation quite nicely. Good LM combined with the group that knows how to play with LM do fine in many instances. But not all players have a luxury of a good "LM aware group" to play regularly with. Especially if you try to join PUG's for random runs it is pain since you will not be selected in any of the "need Tank/DPS/Heal" requests.

    So having a line which would naturally fit in one of those three main roles would solve that problem. My preference would be to have blue line tailored for the healing role, since currently the blue line is pretty pointless.
    But you can't run t3+ with a Bad tank,dps or other healer either.
    There are some difficulties which aren't for bad players,so you shouldn't be suprise that you must be a good lm to fit into this difficulties.
    And if the others can't work with a lm they mal be to bad

  10. #35
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    While I agree that a setup that includes a LM healer does require some awareness/adapting of the group, I personally find that some of the MM instances are actually much smoother and nicer with an LM than for example a beorning. Beornings have more raw hps and emergency skills, but LMs have a lot of very effective possibilities besides classical healing skills. They are viable (and actually quite popular) even on T5.

    Personally, I would not want the LM to have a "mainstream" spec that is pure heal/dmg. I like that it is a hybrid class that has the skills to influence group play in such diverse ways that it is crucial - even if many people don't see the full extent of what LMs really contribute. Anyone who wants to play a traditional healer or dd has enough classes to choose from/log in. LM is not for everyone and that's fine. It is the LM's defining trait that it defies classical categories. That's what LM is all about.

    (My main is a LM and I don't have very much experience with my beorning, but have already healed the new instances with it. This will likely affect my opinion, of course.)
    Rimeya (LM) Daefareth (HNT) Synne (RK) | Gwaihir

  11. #36
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    Yesterday, with a kon group, LM, Captain and Minstrel managed Roost on T3. We thought rather well of ourselves on that, it being the toughest we have managed. All three of us chnaged traitlines fairly regularly and found the eggs hatching section by far the hardest to do. We have tried this with champ instead of captain, but the champ just dies, and dies, and dies and...you get the picture. We have tried RK instead of captain, and the RK (this may be a skill thing I dont know, mine is L20) just ends up with a faceful of mobs and dies. LM + bear and captain + mitigation herald seemed to be a good combination, expecially on the last boss which was tanked by the bear with great success. The secret seemed to be stun immunity at all times and the boss doesnt wander, puddle or tail swipe.

    Given that combination, LM, Cappy and Mini just get eliminated by the crawler swarm after boss #1 in the Filth Well, suggestions for dealing with that are most welcome. Ditto not being chewed to death by the adds on Boss #2 in Harrowing, given that we get there quite happily, if slowly.

    Slow is the word, if it takes the best part of 90 minutes to do one of the dailies, there is no practical way of doing many except on a hoiliday when the calls on one's time are few. That's the core of the problem, the dailies take too long for too many otherwise viable combinations and that's probaby more of an issue for the LM than it is for any other class.
    Mithithil Ithryndi

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mithithil View Post
    Yesterday, with a kon group, LM, Captain and Minstrel managed Roost on T3. We thought rather well of ourselves on that, it being the toughest we have managed. All three of us chnaged traitlines fairly regularly and found the eggs hatching section by far the hardest to do. We have tried this with champ instead of captain, but the champ just dies, and dies, and dies and...you get the picture. We have tried RK instead of captain, and the RK (this may be a skill thing I dont know, mine is L20) just ends up with a faceful of mobs and dies. LM + bear and captain + mitigation herald seemed to be a good combination, expecially on the last boss which was tanked by the bear with great success. The secret seemed to be stun immunity at all times and the boss doesnt wander, puddle or tail swipe.

    Given that combination, LM, Cappy and Mini just get eliminated by the crawler swarm after boss #1 in the Filth Well, suggestions for dealing with that are most welcome. Ditto not being chewed to death by the adds on Boss #2 in Harrowing, given that we get there quite happily, if slowly.

    Slow is the word, if it takes the best part of 90 minutes to do one of the dailies, there is no practical way of doing many except on a hoiliday when the calls on one's time are few. That's the core of the problem, the dailies take too long for too many otherwise viable combinations and that's probaby more of an issue for the LM than it is for any other class.
    Just try:
    tank-captain(beo, warden,guard work as well)
    heal-lm
    dps-x

    and you will have the easiest time of your life.

    for the eggscenario: tank+dps kill the three little ones. heal take care of the eggs, after that tank tanks the two big ones, heal heals and dps take care of the eggs.

 

 
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