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  1. #376
    well just maybe....

    the fact that orc craft and fell wrought mits went into the toilet in last update, may be setting the stage for some pvmp gear that stacks it.

    thus making pvp gear a viable alternative to future raid gear in the moors, Raid gear btw, they have said they will never disable in pvmp.

    i can only hope that Vastin is still fiddling under the hood, making small tweaks as i doubt we'll ever see the grand plans laid out by players.

    but again anything would be an improvement
    .

    Mortem Tyrannis

  2. #377
    Just some random points that came to my mind while reading different posts here - some of that is actually a reiteration, sorry:

    If I look at how freeps are unable to push most of the time, I can see several reasons for it (basing this off Ark's situation):
    • A lot of the freeps are scaled or undergeared... standing against groups comprised of mostly BAs and filers. The scaled/undergeared freeps die so easily that we can probably discount them from the fight.
    • Snares are currently ridiculous. And when freeps try to push, they are bound to run into snares. Honestly, I believe that just thoughtlessly reducing Snare damage to, say, 1/3 of what it is now (just a made up number that seems reasonable to me at first glance), would do wonders for freepside push success by allowing melee classes to actually do things.
    • Filers are slightly better at healing on the move than the average freep healing class (not sure how bears are for that but RKs and minis are not too good at healing on the move)
    • BAs are currently more durable than freep ranged dps classes.
    • Filers are currently more durable than minis and RKs; less durable than bears.
    • The comparison between the amount of grind on freepside and creepside allows creeps to stack FoTM classes (definitely BA, maybe filer, maybe warg because stealth, idk) more easily than freeps (burg, RK, bear) can, at least at this time on new level cap.
    • Unequal numbers in the Moors most of the time. If a fraid pushes back or wipes the initial group of creeps that camps GV, they usually get called out in OOC and a few more groups of creeps quickly map GTR and make a quick process out of this.


    Speaking about lower numbers on freepside, some of that, of course, is caused by people not being geared yet, people waiting for the LP option, etc. However, there are also freep barriers of entrance - VIP or MC. I honestly don't consider the pricing appropriate. Paying VIP only to focus on playing PvMP in this state would not feel worth it.
    The MC option has one major flaw - it counts time spent anywhere in Lotro on the character, not only in PvMP areas. So, if you go to Moors once, find out there isn't action and want to do something else, you still spend your precious Moors time even when you aren't doing what you paid for.
    Some freeps and creeps on Crickhollow, some creeps on Evernight. Recently also a casual Jogger on Arkenstone.

    Certified trash.

  3. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Brolad View Post
    Just some random points that came to my mind while reading different posts here - some of that is actually a reiteration, sorry:

    If I look at how freeps are unable to push most of the time, I can see several reasons for it (basing this off Ark's situation):
    • A lot of the freeps are scaled or undergeared... standing against groups comprised of mostly BAs and filers. The scaled/undergeared freeps die so easily that we can probably discount them from the fight.
    • Snares are currently ridiculous. And when freeps try to push, they are bound to run into snares. Honestly, I believe that just thoughtlessly reducing Snare damage to, say, 1/3 of what it is now (just a made up number that seems reasonable to me at first glance), would do wonders for freepside push success by allowing melee classes to actually do things.
    • Filers are slightly better at healing on the move than the average freep healing class (not sure how bears are for that but RKs and minis are not too good at healing on the move)
    • BAs are currently more durable than freep ranged dps classes.
    • Filers are currently more durable than minis and RKs; less durable than bears.
    • The comparison between the amount of grind on freepside and creepside allows creeps to stack FoTM classes (definitely BA, maybe filer, maybe warg because stealth, idk) more easily than freeps (burg, RK, bear) can, at least at this time on new level cap.
    • Unequal numbers in the Moors most of the time. If a fraid pushes back or wipes the initial group of creeps that camps GV, they usually get called out in OOC and a few more groups of creeps quickly map GTR and make a quick process out of this.


    Speaking about lower numbers on freepside, some of that, of course, is caused by people not being geared yet, people waiting for the LP option, etc. However, there are also freep barriers of entrance - VIP or MC. I honestly don't consider the pricing appropriate. Paying VIP only to focus on playing PvMP in this state would not feel worth it.
    The MC option has one major flaw - it counts time spent anywhere in Lotro on the character, not only in PvMP areas. So, if you go to Moors once, find out there isn't action and want to do something else, you still spend your precious Moors time even when you aren't doing what you paid for.
    Good post.
    ~Rank 11 Loremaster, Arkenstone~

    ~Rank 14 Warg, Arkenstone~

  4. #379
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    258
    I would love to get answer from any SSG person here. With so many people suggest giving freeps pvp gear why is so hard for them to do it? We don't need new design of pvp armour just scale 105 or whatever was last good armour to 130 caps numbers and job done. Is it really so complicated to change some stats in items already in game?

  5. #380
    I'm not interested in quick fixes. Even less so for a PvMP Creep revamp if its attached to a monetization scheme like I've seen put in place for PvE. I'll not list what needs fixed. The list is long and everyone including SSG knows this list.

    Nope, no interest at all. SSG inherited this by choice knowing full well. SSG is a small team by their own design. That is of no concern to me. If they want me to play and retain the potential I may spend some money, they need to fix PvMP. Anything else is just me finding other things to do and leaving LotRO in the past.

    If SSG can manage to keep enough people playing to pay their bills that's fine by me. If not, I can't say I'll shed any tears reading some where LotRO is no more. Some where in between those two if they step up and fix PvMP, I may change my mind.

    Until then...
    Università degli Studi di Roma "La Sapienza" Sapienza University of Rome

    Graduate PhD con lode Scienze della Politica

  6. #381
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Chile
    Posts
    17
    I haven’t played LOTRO for about a year now, and a PvMP update like the one this thread is discussing would 100% make me become a suscriber again
    Soulsplit-1, Arkenstone.

  7. #382
    Well once again we have a step in the wrong direction: Reaver DPS has been nerfed, along with dying rage, as documented here:

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...83#post7985183

    Meanwhile, BA dps/snares is untouched.


    Freeps meanwhile, get new very much improved teal gear.


    This further solidifies the BA/Defiler spam going on, since those 2 creep classes (especially BA with snares) will be necessary to combat the new improved freeps, because other creep classes continue to lag behind.


    More of the same.
    The Black Appendage of Sauron

  8. #383
    jljohnson4's Avatar
    jljohnson4 is offline Defender of the Hornburg
    The Sly and Cunning
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers View Post
    Freeps meanwhile, get new very much improved teal gear.
    Very much incorrect. the freeps got a revamp of only the few crafted pieces that were already teal. The increases are minor and in no way game breaking.

    Rastlyn: Burglar, Naltsar: Guardian, Reistlin: Hunter, Reistlan: Runekeeper
    A Burg's Eye View

  9. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by jljohnson4 View Post
    Very much incorrect. the freeps got a revamp of only the few crafted pieces that were already teal. The increases are minor and in no way game breaking.
    freeps didn't get a lot of new gear, but many classes got many of their skills ratings increased by insane amount, Ancient craft now is -225k armor value, instead of like 70k, ministrel anthem of composure now provides 100k resist, and almost same amount for tact mits, call off elindil on mini is also now -225k light mits. and that's the game breaking. (PS: i only mentioned what i remember,so many other skills on almost all classes got scaled up very high meanwhile creeps stuck at negative mits ^_^)
    champion,RK,warg,defiler,rvr.
    RIP lotro pvp.

  10. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by jljohnson4 View Post
    Very much incorrect. the freeps got a revamp of only the few crafted pieces that were already teal. The increases are minor and in no way game breaking.
    My mistake if that is the case... but as the other poster pointed out, the ratings buffs for various skills appears to be an equally egregious alteration considering the state of things now.
    The Black Appendage of Sauron

  11. #386
    Lots of posts in here blame the gear grind for why freeps aren't out lately. I actually agree with the premise because I abandoned freepside long ago over the treadmill grind.

    Question though: if it's all about the grind, why do freeps put themselves through it every.single.time. it's an update where they're OP? I.e., most updates. The truth is the grind excuse is malarky and they'd be out in droves right now if they could still 1-shot at will like they could during U22.
    Team Milt.

  12. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by jljohnson4 View Post
    Your mistake? You put forth a statement to the general populous as being true without actually checking if it was accurate or not simply because it suited your own views... You have, through your own actions, devalued everything you have said or will ever say again.
    I mean, the qualifier "very much" is the only mistake... I wasn't entirely familiar with how much of an improvement the gear change was because I don't have firsthand experience with the current endgame gear... merely the resulting stats and DPS/HPS/Mit/Morale values.


    The qualifier will be true soon enough though, when new raid gear is released... so really I wasn't so much wrong as I was ahead of the curve.
    The Black Appendage of Sauron

  13. #388
    jljohnson4's Avatar
    jljohnson4 is offline Defender of the Hornburg
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrRabbitfoot View Post
    You don’t let me kill you so I’m going to be salty and not believe anything you say because I know all about you.

    ^ that’s what I got from your post. And what is it exactly that you do know about my play style?
    Last edited by jljohnson4; Jan 11 2020 at 07:13 PM.

    Rastlyn: Burglar, Naltsar: Guardian, Reistlin: Hunter, Reistlan: Runekeeper
    A Burg's Eye View

  14. #389
    Join Date
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    Osgiliath map was originally intended to introduce a round-based PvMPvE game mode, which would end upon killing the War-Tyrant Akulhun/CG Tordur equivalents. Objectives were to be an essential part to the gameplay on this map, as opposed to merely renown/inf buffs. For anyone wondering why on earth the map was made with straight runs that seem to allow for unlimited zerg-based shuffle potential, it is because it was not at all made with the same concept design as the ettenmoors.


    The changes to the ettenmoors with the outpost update (Changing the locations of Elf and Orc Camp, and the rezzes), along with the introduction of backdoors is the direct cause of the backdoor shuffles. Originally the shuffles would be directed from GV through to gramsfoot through each respective keep, and kept centred on Tol Ascaren in the maps centre by the positioning of Elf Camp (originally south of STAB) and Orc Camp (originally on the hill south of WTAB).

    A shuffle that has a leeway to move from GV-TR, to TR-EC, to EC-TA, to TA-OC, to OC-Lugz and Lugz-Grams is far better than the shuffle that is either GV-TR backdoor, or Grams-Lugz backdoor. Taking any one of the keeps that was not at the centre of the shuffle, but behind it somewhere, could instantly move where the shuffle was taking place and keep things interesting. As the strongest and largest keep in PvMP, the entire concept of the ettenmoors design was to keep the action centred on TA, and to give logistical and geographic reasons to want to hold TA for map domination. Since the shuffle through TA has been entirely eliminated, the moors is a #### show that has had no lively PvMP action for years. It has been replaced with PvP by tab target and backdoor teleporting, where the only resemblance to the old PvMP are the ranged standoffs. The difference here is that the ranged standoffs never really progress into open field combat. It seems that almost every dumb #### that plays PvMP right now prefers ranged standoffs and want nothing to do with open field combat. Why blame them though? There's almost no reason to do it. There's nowhere to retreat to from GV apart from TR, and nowhere to retreat to from TR apart from Lugz. NPCs with wet noodles for swords mean that if freeps can roll creeps back from TR to lugz, it simply turns into a Lugz-Grams backdoor shuffle. The whole point of TA mediating between the two keeps was to split up the attacking force into two groups, which had to try and penetrate a keep with more and tougher NPCs, extra defences (E.g. Oil) and all the while fighting the raid that they had just rolled at the weaker keep (TR/Lugz). Backdoors and outposts/change of rez locations mean that there is no reason to retreat to hold fights at TA anymore.

    The map changes in the outpost update were meant to try and direct people away from the straight line between Grams and GV through TA, and give the shuffle more reason to visit Grothum and Hoarhollow, and Isendeep and Lumbercamp. It sort of succeeded at first. But the problem was the backdoors. Paired with the keep backdoors, the changes only ended up gutting the straight line shuffle that kept action moving smoothly across the map and making it like a light switch; either at GV or Grams. Backdoors should have been somehow placed inside the keeps quest rooms and been connected to the delving of fror, not to the outside of the keep. The entire point of backdoors was to give defenders a way to get back into the keep without having to run through a raid that is sieging the keep. Instead, it is now a camping ground where people pop in and out to avoid sustained combat.

    The change to lugz rez was abyssmal. Honestly, Orc Camp should have stayed roughly where it was directly across WTAB (west TA bridge), and the Lugz rez stayed where Elf Camp currently is. New lugz rez is just awful. It is way too close to the outpost and is in a geographically terrible position with respect to both to the keep itself, and for allowing players time to run in the opposite direction of any rez campers with a significant head start. The old Elf camp location south of STAB (south TA bridge) should have been replaced with some sets of NPCs designed to encourage small group and fellowship play, like neutral NPCs, or scattered campsites that changed based on who owned TA.
    Last edited by Constrictions; Jan 12 2020 at 08:15 AM.

  15. #390
    Join Date
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    Location
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constrictions View Post
    Osgiliath map was originally intended to introduce a round-based PvMPvE game mode, which would end upon killing the War-Tyrant Akulhun/CG Tordur equivalents. Objectives were to be an essential part to the gameplay on this map, as opposed to merely renown/inf buffs. For anyone wondering why on earth the map was made with straight runs that seem to allow for unlimited zerg-based shuffle potential, it is because it was not at all made with the same concept design as the ettenmoors.


    The changes to the ettenmoors with the outpost update (Changing the locations of Elf and Orc Camp, and the rezzes), along with the introduction of backdoors is the direct cause of the backdoor shuffles. Originally the shuffles would be directed from GV through to gramsfoot through each respective keep, and kept centred on Tol Ascaren in the maps centre by the positioning of Elf Camp (originally south of STAB) and Orc Camp (originally on the hill south of WTAB).

    A shuffle that has a leeway to move from GV-TR, to TR-EC, to EC-TA, to TA-OC, to OC-Lugz and Lugz-Grams is far better than the shuffle that is either GV-TR backdoor, or Grams-Lugz backdoor. Taking any one of the keeps that was not at the centre of the shuffle, but behind it somewhere, could instantly move where the shuffle was taking place and keep things interesting. As the strongest and largest keep in PvMP, the entire concept of the ettenmoors design was to keep the action centred on TA, and to give logistical and geographic reasons to want to hold TA for map domination. Since the shuffle through TA has been entirely eliminated, the moors is a #### show that has had no lively PvMP action for years. It has been replaced with PvP by tab target and backdoor teleporting, where the only resemblance to the old PvMP are the ranged standoffs. The difference here is that the ranged standoffs never really progress into open field combat. It seems that almost every dumb #### that plays PvMP right now prefers ranged standoffs and want nothing to do with open field combat. Why blame them though? There's almost no reason to do it. There's nowhere to retreat to from GV apart from TR, and nowhere to retreat to from TR apart from Lugz. NPCs with wet noodles for swords mean that if freeps can roll creeps back from TR to lugz, it simply turns into a Lugz-Grams backdoor shuffle. The whole point of TA mediating between the two keeps was to split up the attacking force into two groups, which had to try and penetrate a keep with more and tougher NPCs, extra defences (E.g. Oil) and all the while fighting the raid that they had just rolled at the weaker keep (TR/Lugz). Backdoors and outposts/change of rez locations mean that there is no reason to retreat to hold fights at TA anymore.

    The map changes in the outpost update were meant to try and direct people away from the straight line between Grams and GV through TA, and give the shuffle more reason to visit Grothum and Hoarhollow, and Isendeep and Lumbercamp. It sort of succeeded at first. But the problem was the backdoors. Paired with the keep backdoors, the changes only ended up gutting the straight line shuffle that kept action moving smoothly across the map and making it like a light switch; either at GV or Grams. Backdoors should have been somehow placed inside the keeps quest rooms and been connected to the delving of fror, not to the outside of the keep. The entire point of backdoors was to give defenders a way to get back into the keep without having to run through a raid that is sieging the keep. Instead, it is now a camping ground where people pop in and out to avoid sustained combat.

    The change to lugz rez was abyssmal. Honestly, Orc Camp should have stayed roughly where it was directly across WTAB (west TA bridge), and the Lugz rez stayed where Elf Camp currently is. New lugz rez is just awful. It is way too close to the outpost and is in a geographically terrible position with respect to both to the keep itself, and for allowing players time to run in the opposite direction of any rez campers with a significant head start. The old Elf camp location south of STAB (south TA bridge) should have been replaced with some sets of NPCs designed to encourage small group and fellowship play, like neutral NPCs, or scattered campsites that changed based on who owned TA.
    Pretty much nailed it. The change to the map royally screwed over the battle-flow.

    Mulatic
    R14 Reaver
    Arkenstone

  16. #391
    Pretty much over at this point. Just realized I haven't logged in except for 30 seconds a few days ago to see (verify) a GV camp and I didn't even think about it. First time ever since the game launched. End of an era.
    Team Milt.

  17. #392
    Well, here's another update to the PVMP balance situation: Freep raid gear is coming out, meaning that freep morale pools and healing output will once again dwarf the damage output of creep skills not named bestial claws, snares, or steadfast barrage.


    anything that isn't a BA will fall further behind, while the BA stack will become more necessary than ever to combat raid geared freeps.


    RIP Reaver... reavers are insane.
    The Black Appendage of Sauron

  18. #393
    Come on doooo somthing ssg

  19. #394
    Oh well, raid gear came and things are pretty much as expected. Despite the wording in the previous "PvMP update" (which spoke about enabling devs to do more work in the future), nothing else was done to help. Just PvMP armour alone would change so much and, if it was class-specific, it would also open grounds for balancing between different freep classes specifically for PvMP.

    Meanwhile burgs and RKs (as has been foretold by prophecies in this mythical thread) are in a similar spot to where burgs were towards the end of previous level cap, fortunately at least some are limited by either not raiding and therefore not being geared, not gearing specifically for Moors or being generally bad (e. g. Ark burg packs).

    In other words, bump.
    Some freeps and creeps on Crickhollow, some creeps on Evernight. Recently also a casual Jogger on Arkenstone.

    Certified trash.

  20. #395
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    16
    its very sad to see so much effort and all, but nothing will be done in end... pvp died long time ago

  21. #396
    Why does this thread exist?

 

 
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