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  1. #1

    Criticals versus Devastates; please fix this after years of being reported

    while deeding I got the perfect representation of the disparity between crits and devastates. below is all three hits from the same Ferocious Strike:

    Pinrea scored a critical hit with Ferocious Strikes on the Barrow-warden for 79,527 Ancient Dwarf-make damage to Morale.

    Pinrea scored a devastating hit with Ferocious Strikes on the Barrow-warden for 56,794 Ancient Dwarf-make damage to Morale.

    Pinrea scored a critical hit with Ferocious Strikes on the Barrow-warden for 73,261 Ancient Dwarf-make damage to Morale.

    As you can see the first two hits, which are the same damage as each other are vastly different due to the first critically hitting and the second only devastating. The third attack, which is lower base damage than the other two also crit and still dealt substantially more damage than the devastating hit. I've reported this before stating my theory that its due to the critical magnitude legacy only applying to crits and not devas, which when Imbued LI's were introduced at level 100 it began a steadily increasing difference between the two hits which will only get worse as the level cap and LI's increase.

    Please standardize all critical magnitudes to be included in the devastate magnitude so that damage dealers aren't penalized for devastatingly hitting rather than critically hitting.

  2. #2
    This is the fact that cry of the hunter hasn't been touched in a decade makes me thing they don't even know how to fix these things anymore.

  3. #3
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    All irrelevant "issues" Champions are Gods able to unleash enormous amounts of damage, these hits are unreal,you should not be bothered about second doing less damage than intended. There are greater concerns of fixing High Female elf sounds mixing with lesser elves.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Brinuw View Post
    [...] before stating my theory that its due to the critical magnitude legacy only applying to crits and not devas
    Yup, this is quite certainly the reason. Other classes that have crit magnitude legacies are affected as well. I see a similar effect when using lightning skills with my RK, and hunters and burgs probably see that effect too. Champs see the biggest disparity, since our crit magnitude legacy reaches far higher values than similar legacies.

    Easy fix would be to tone down these legacies a bit and let them affect devastates. So the additional damage output from the legacies would roughly stay the same, but devastates would hit really hard. SSG, make devastates great again!

    Since tinkering with legacies is needed, I guess we won't see a fix until the long promised LI overhaul.

  5. #5
    It would be even easier, if a If-then Conditional would be used.
    If the Damage of the Critical Hit is higher as the Devasting, then use the Crititcal Hit Damage value.

    Maybe it would be easier to implement that if the Weapon legacy stat is higher as 50%*, then deactivate devastings on the Champion.

    The first would be more universal, the 2nd maybe faster as workaround.

    Could be also higher 50 + 2 x 7,5 from relicts + 15 Devastingshelms ~80

    What value is max atm?

  6. #6
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    On Roxi's gear stream for 75's they were all after the devastate gear. I suppose this was the last time it was relevant, when they couldn't have the high critical magnitudes that imbueing gives.

    Ironic that a scholar can make end game hunters and champions potions that nerf damage for short periods... EDIT: Nope -My error thought they added to chance not just magnitude.
    Last edited by Ballie; Oct 02 2019 at 09:18 AM. Reason: Correction of error

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballie View Post
    On Roxi's gear stream for 75's they were all after the devastate gear. I suppose this was the last time it was relevant, when they couldn't have the high critical magnitudes that imbueing gives.

    Ironic that a scholar can make end game hunters and champions potions that nerf damage for short periods...
    Devastate based set bonuses, were useful all the way up until crit magnitude % started outstripping devastate magnitude %. Which started happening around post 105~ iirc.

    In terms of the potions, they don't nerf damage.. They increase the damage of any devastates that happen during the period the potion is active, and considering devastates are 'going to happen anyway' (of course depending on % chance), best to increase the damage of them as best you can = with dev pots.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyaerunanethiel View Post
    All irrelevant "issues" Champions are Gods able to unleash enormous amounts of damage, these hits are unreal,you should not be bothered about second doing less damage than intended. There are greater concerns of fixing High Female elf sounds mixing with lesser elves.
    How easily you abandoned your former Gods and Queens to the shelf of "lesser". An elf is for life, not just for Christmas.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorikon View Post
    Yup, this is quite certainly the reason. Other classes that have crit magnitude legacies are affected as well. I see a similar effect when using lightning skills with my RK, and hunters and burgs probably see that effect too. Champs see the biggest disparity, since our crit magnitude legacy reaches far higher values than similar legacies.

    Easy fix would be to tone down these legacies a bit and let them affect devastates. So the additional damage output from the legacies would roughly stay the same, but devastates would hit really hard. SSG, make devastates great again!

    Since tinkering with legacies is needed, I guess we won't see a fix until the long promised LI overhaul.
    I've seen it on hunter, but not that often (though I admit, I don't look that often either).

    You still think that LI overhaul is coming? I'm not sure it is anymore, or that it will be what people are expecting if it does.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    You still think that LI overhaul is coming? I'm not sure it is anymore, or that it will be what people are expecting if it does.
    I do think it's gonna happen eventually... not this year ofc, maybe not till the end of 2020.. but I do fear it won't be what we expect or want it to be.
    Laergwend (Mini) - officer of Legacy - Ithil

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  11. #11
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    This is messed up. I mean, isn't devastate supposed to be this real rare lucky hit that deals truly massive damage? Dev magnitude should be not an independent stat, it should be a multiplier on top of crit magnitude.
    Raising one's crit magnitude would then boost devastate damage as well.
    Having a buff that raises one's devastate chance actually result in lower dps is just ridiculous.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by scorrp10 View Post
    This is messed up. I mean, isn't devastate supposed to be this real rare lucky hit that deals truly massive damage? Dev magnitude should be not an independent stat, it should be a multiplier on top of crit magnitude.
    Raising one's crit magnitude would then boost devastate damage as well.
    Having a buff that raises one's devastate chance actually result in lower dps is just ridiculous.
    That's how it was originally introduced when crits/devs were introduced back in mirkwood (i think); crits dealing 1.5 times more damage while devastates dealing 2 times more, and the legacies that increased crit multipliers then would just close the difference between the two criticals. However nowadays the crit multiplier legacies have outpaced that 50% difference (hunters caps at 83%, champs cap at 166%).

  13. #13
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    And that is clearly broken. Crit magnitude improvements ought to equally apply to dev magnitude. (On top of their respective bases)

  14. #14
    Yeah, this has been a champ issue for years.

  15. #15
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    Just remove devastes and add the chance to critical chance.
    At least we can be happy that devastes chance isn't capped automatically anymore with capped critchance. So we can reduce this reduction of damage.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    At least we can be happy that devastes chance isn't capped automatically anymore with capped critchance. So we can reduce this reduction of damage.
    And again, my dear friend .. please do not post if you do not know the game mechanics even basically ...

    But here is a basic introduction to lotro mechanics: Crit Chance and Devastate Chance do not affect each other. if you have 30% crit chance and 5% devastate chance, it does not mean that you will crit in 25% of hits and 5% will be devastates, no, it means that 30% will be crits and 5% will be devastates. So, devastates never have lowered our damage, they always have increased it (as they would not become magically crits if devastates would be removed)

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorondir View Post
    And again, my dear friend .. please do not post if you do not know the game mechanics even basically ...

    But here is a basic introduction to lotro mechanics: Crit Chance and Devastate Chance do not affect each other. if you have 30% crit chance and 5% devastate chance, it does not mean that you will crit in 25% of hits and 5% will be devastates, no, it means that 30% will be crits and 5% will be devastates. So, devastates never have lowered our damage, they always have increased it (as they would not become magically crits if devastates would be removed)
    Well devaste is better as normal but you´ve classe which can get 100% crit chance, And for them with the current crit multiplier a devaste is bad cause it reduces with a 10% chance their dmg cause devaste are rolled anyway.
    Ok for normal circumstnaces a devaste is technecally no reduction of dmg. But if you hit with "fury of blade " etc 10 targets 9 are crits and one is a devaste. this feels like a reduction of dmg.
    And devaste should be higher per definition. So either the critmultipliers on the Lis etc should increase the devaste dmg too or devaste chance should get removed and become additional critchance.
    So that we´ve either have 10% cahnce for: dmg*(2+x) and 25% for: dmg*(1.5+x) or we get 35% chance for dmg*(1.5+x).
    But the order: normal<devaste<crit ist just as wrong as bad.
    other solution would be, increase the devaste multiplier to 5 so devastes stay higher as crits with 1.5 + x.
    Last edited by Mukor; Oct 02 2019 at 08:55 AM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Devastate based set bonuses, were useful all the way up until crit magnitude % started outstripping devastate magnitude %. Which started happening around post 105~ iirc.

    In terms of the potions, they don't nerf damage.. They increase the damage of any devastates that happen during the period the potion is active, and considering devastates are 'going to happen anyway' (of course depending on % chance), best to increase the damage of them as best you can = with dev pots.
    My bad. I was thinking they added to dev chance too not just dev mag

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    How easily you abandoned your former Gods and Queens to the shelf of "lesser". An elf is for life, not just for Christmas.
    Its ok, if the former Elven Queen on high sets, on a shelf.

    The highest priority is to segregate Elves completely.
    Università degli Studi di Roma "La Sapienza" Sapienza University of Rome

    Graduate PhD con lode Scienze della Politica

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    Well devaste is better as normal but you´ve classe which can get 100% crit chance, And for them with the current crit multiplier a devaste is bad cause it reduces with a 10% chance their dmg cause devaste are rolled anyway.
    Ok for normal circumstnaces a devaste is technecally no reduction of dmg. But if you hit with "fury of blade " etc 10 targets 9 are crits and one is a devaste. this feels like a reduction of dmg.
    And devaste should be higher per definition. So either the critmultipliers on the Lis etc should increase the devaste dmg too or devaste chance should get removed and become additional critchance.
    So that we´ve either have 10% cahnce for: dmg*(2+x) and 25% for: dmg*(1.5+x) or we get 35% chance for dmg*(1.5+x).
    But the order: normal<devaste<crit ist just as wrong as bad.
    other solution would be, increase the devaste multiplier to 5 so devastes stay higher as crits with 1.5 + x.
    a few questions for you:

    1) how many classes can reach 100% crit? The answer here is simply: None. So, your whole calculation is meh. Certain classes have a skill for 100% crit for one skill, but how many are that?

    2) which of the above classes from the answer of 1) actually do less damage with devastates then with crits?

    3) for all the classes in 2), now do a proper calculation including proper use of the 100% crit skill and tell me the answer. I can give it to you already before, but you won't believe me: No one looses damage from that.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    But if you hit with "fury of blade " etc 10 targets 9 are crits and one is a devaste. this feels like a reduction of dmg.
    A champion that hits 9 targets of Fury of Blades with a crit and 1 with a devastate should know how unlikely such an event is (and getting 10 crits would be even more unlikely, so we cannot even talk about damage reduction here), or do you have a special champion that has a skill no one else has?

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorondir View Post
    a few questions for you:

    1) how many classes can reach 100% crit? The answer here is simply: None. So, your whole calculation is meh. Certain classes have a skill for 100% crit for one skill, but how many are that?

    2) which of the above classes from the answer of 1) actually do less damage with devastates then with crits?

    3) for all the classes in 2), now do a proper calculation including proper use of the 100% crit skill and tell me the answer. I can give it to you already before, but you won't believe me: No one looses damage from that.
    although I'm not targeted, I'll try to answer:

    1) hunter (redline, stealthed, doubletap focus) and burg (stealthed for CA and SS, plus aim for any skill).
    2) hunter
    3) as its only the first upfront skill and crit afterwards falls back to ~45% (maybe 60+% in a raid), nothing is lost from having additional devs.
    3b) however, if the dev-chance was added to critchance, hunters and champs would certainly profit from lvl100 on. for everyone else and for everyone below lvl100, devs are a bonus.
    3c) why cant dots and heals devastate, although they can crit?

    I'm not sure on 2 and 3 for burgs. as they can aim quite often, and other skills than CA and SS might crit harder than dev, they might actually be annoyed by aim-devs if aim is used for other skills... but I didnt login to my burg for several months, didnt even yet try the new CA bleed stuff...

    and even though the point was moot and while surely, devs are always better than not having devs... no matter which kind of devs we talk about... I think no one disagrees, that devastating hits SHOULD certainly always deal more damage than critical hits.

    just like so many mechanics, the crit/dev thing is far from optimal. classes behave differently, for some, magnitudes are ridiculously high which has its own issues... yet, it works, the game runs without any real issues and there are more urgent things. there is a whole lot of things that could be optimized for lotro. and if hunters and champs got increased dev damage, they'd hopefully get a nerf somewhere else. and that would make them cry again. so why do it at all, if it makes them unhappy?
    Last edited by Oelle; Oct 03 2019 at 04:04 PM.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorondir View Post
    a few questions for you:

    1) how many classes can reach 100% crit? The answer here is simply: None. So, your whole calculation is meh. Certain classes have a skill for 100% crit for one skill, but how many are that?

    2) which of the above classes from the answer of 1) actually do less damage with devastates then with crits?

    3) for all the classes in 2), now do a proper calculation including proper use of the 100% crit skill and tell me the answer. I can give it to you already before, but you won't believe me: No one looses damage from that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorondir View Post
    A champion that hits 9 targets of Fury of Blades with a crit and 1 with a devastate should know how unlikely such an event is (and getting 10 crits would be even more unlikely, so we cannot even talk about damage reduction here), or do you have a special champion that has a skill no one else has?
    Yeah that are rare cases and events but they excist. But it soesn´t matter how often they happened.
    Devastes must hit higher as crits.
    Or better since devastes are outdatet cause of the multiplier the chance has to be rmoved and added to critchance (or jsut the nhalf of it) to balance the differencein the dmg with this change.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    Yeah that are rare cases and events but they excist. But it soesn´t matter how often they happened.
    Devastes must hit higher as crits.
    Or better since devastes are outdatet cause of the multiplier the chance has to be rmoved and added to critchance (or jsut the nhalf of it) to balance the differencein the dmg with this change.
    apparently you did not get my point. Champion does NOT have a skill for 100% crit. if he manages to get 10 crits out of 10 hits, that is pure luck .. and nothing more. 9 crits and 1 dev is NOT a downgrade of 10 crits - it is just a super rare random event (actually still way more realistic than getting 10 out of 10 crits). You are talking out of your ### again without any idea of the game and spreading once again misinformation - and even after being pointed out that you are wrong, you are just ignoring it and doing as if nothing happend ...

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorondir View Post
    apparently you did not get my point. Champion does NOT have a skill for 100% crit. if he manages to get 10 crits out of 10 hits, that is pure luck .. and nothing more. 9 crits and 1 dev is NOT a downgrade of 10 crits - it is just a super rare random event (actually still way more realistic than getting 10 out of 10 crits). You are talking out of your ### again without any idea of the game and spreading once again misinformation - and even after being pointed out that you are wrong, you are just ignoring it and doing as if nothing happend ...
    I never said champs can reach 100% crit chance but hunters do and they´re affected in the differences of the magnitudes too. Not so big but crits are higher as devastes. And it doesn´t matter how many classes can 100% crit or how rare 10/10 crit/devaste events are. This is general discussion about crits vs devastes.
    The problem is that devastes must be higher as crits per definition.
    For this problem there are 3 solutions:
    1. Let e3ffect such critmagnitude legacies etc devastes too.
    2. increase the devaste basemagnitude to a number that it´s allways higher as the critmagnitude + bonuses
    3. Remove devastechance and add this 10% to crit chance that we would end at 35% + bonuses critchance.

 

 
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