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  1. #1

    Arrow Kidzul-Kalah Update

    Way to nerf it so people with not even teal gear can do it like the t5 instances out there now. Which btw something is wrong with those mobs cause people can do t5 with horrible gear and those same people couldnt even do t3 of those instances with identical or better gear before the t4 and t5 versions. Kidzul was fine the way it was, it wasnt easy but it wasnt extreme. Best content in awhile. Now will just be easy mode and every one will have best relics in game same as bracelets and cloaks and 70% of them never set foot in T3 Anvil Raid/Thikil Kudos.

  2. #2
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    IMHO, worst choice for new T4-T5 version of instance. Game have so many interesting instances, and they updgrade to T4-T5 one of rushed, unpolished, boring instances.

  3. #3
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    Seems like you have tried the update already..
    Yes it is a nerf comming but how it will turn out, nobody knows yet.

    Dont complain before you actually do test it
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by NImlonda View Post
    Seems like you have tried the update already..
    Yes it is a nerf comming but how it will turn out, nobody knows yet.

    Dont complain before you actually do test it
    How we can actually test it? We don't have Kidzul-Kalah T4-T5 on Bullroar

  5. #5
    Ok, so I get that they had to nerf it. T3 was a decent challenge for good groups, however when they add T4/5 some scion combinations would be too much to handle even for many T3 raiders

    However I would have prefered if the nerf took place AFTER the led the charge title was gone. Now the title is only worth half as much

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmagor View Post
    How we can actually test it? We don't have Kidzul-Kalah T4-T5 on Bullroar
    Nobody yet, which is kind of my point here..
    Why complain that it is now easy mode when the OP has not even tested it?
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  7. #7

    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    Ok, so I get that they had to nerf it. T3 was a decent challenge for good groups, however when they add T4/5 some scion combinations would be too much to handle even for many T3 raiders

    However I would have prefered if the nerf took place AFTER the led the charge title was gone. Now the title is only worth half as much
    Exactly, it has been out 3 weeks, not even a full month. No reason to nerf it with week left till title is no long available. Its not like one group beat it, many have. Could have postponed t4 and t5 after the 11th which is what I thought the plan was but once again dropped the ball. Also form watching some of t4/t5 it looks the same a glimmer, more damage done, less damage taken. The only challenge is what Scions you get but you can just die and redo to get better ones and will be done on RnG now instead of a greatly built instance which it was before the nerf.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoRDee View Post
    Exactly, it has been out 3 weeks, not even a full month. No reason to nerf it with week left till title is no long available. Its not like one group beat it, many have. Could have postponed t4 and t5 after the 11th which is what I thought the plan was but once again dropped the ball. Also form watching some of t4/t5 it looks the same a glimmer, more damage done, less damage taken. The only challenge is what Scions you get but you can just die and redo to get better ones and will be done on RnG now instead of a greatly built instance which it was before the nerf.

    Dont like it at all i hope they nerf it to the ground and to put new relics in a 6 man instance was a complete fail.
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  9. #9
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    Additional tiers should always introduce additional mehcanics. Anything short of that is not worth the investment(?).

    Current 3-man T5 is acceptable as new loot always keeps the raiding community fairly active and possibly expanding since lack of any extra difficulty & extra reward allow more people to get involved.

    The Depths T3 was outstanding. Complex and mechanically advanced fight -despite recycling old mechanics. Should not be nerfed. Should not be scaled. It could offer more loot to convince more people to run it, but other than that it's a masterpiece.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    Dont like it at all i hope they nerf it to the ground and to put new relics in a 6 man instance was a complete fail.
    Arandour you know i love you but we both know you're saying that cause you feel champions are excluded from the instance. Technically they aren't. Any setup has the same chances to make it as long as a good tactic is followed.
    Last edited by Demosthenes11; Sep 05 2019 at 08:11 PM.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demosthenes11 View Post
    Additional tiers should always introduce additional mehcanics. Anything short of that is not worth the investment(?).

    Current 3-man T5 is acceptable as new loot always keeps the raiding community fairly active and possibly expanding since lack of any extra difficulty & extra reward allow more people to get involved.

    The Depths T3 was outstanding. Complex and mechanically advanced fight -despite recycling old mechanics. Should not nerfed. Should not be scaled. It could offer more loot to convince more people to run it, but other than that it's a masterpiece.



    Arandour you know i love you but we both know you're saying that cause you feel champions are excluded from the instance. Technically they aren't. Any setup has the same chances to make it as long as a good tactic is followed.

    Sorry but when i see instances like this i dont even have the patience to find the right tactic anymore.I am tired.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    Sorry but when i see instances like this i dont even have the patience to find the right tactic anymore.I am tired.
    So basically, because you can't go in as a yellow line champ and shing shing everything to death. You can't be bothered to play the instance? XD

    Makes sense. Ok.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    So basically, because you can't go in as a yellow line champ and shing shing everything to death. You can't be bothered to play the instance? XD

    Makes sense. Ok.
    Burglars do more dps on single so why to get champion in if no aoe needed.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    Burglars do more dps on single so why to get champion in if no aoe needed.
    Sigh. You're actually hopeless XD

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    Burglars do more dps on single so why to get champion in if no aoe needed.
    Well that's 100% accurate with a small detail tho,i can barely find 5 good burglars in Evernight.Not like i know more than 5 good champs aswell so i guess nevermind...
    Anyway nerfing an instance that you can do with good group in 15 mins and adding more Tiers with absolute GARBAGE loot for ppl who are going to clear it(braindead ppl still struggle at t3 so forget them) is one more sign of lacking a good Community Manager who can actually listen to playerbase.
    If we actually had a real CM instead of a clueless troll you would know that NO ONE want locks anymore but i guess you dont even care since its one more way to milk ppl for Valars.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Demosthenes11 View Post
    Arandour you know i love you but we both know you're saying that cause you feel champions are excluded from the instance. Technically they aren't. Any setup has the same chances to make it as long as a good tactic is followed.
    Yeah "technically" they aren't. But in reality they are. I am not one of those Champ whiners who cry after every new content is released that Champs are excluded, I don't even play a Champ at endgame (mine hasn't seen a raid since throne)

    But in this case it is correct

    The boss has far too much mitigation (and not enough morale) which makes mitigation debuffs far too powerful. If they added more morale and reduced the mitigations so that it took the same time to kill the boss it would be much better. As it stands everything with fire damage is at a great advantage and a 2 RK, 1 Hunter setup will just burn through the boss in no time.

    It actually took us about as much time to adapt our strategy to allow for a Champ in the setup as it took us to clear the instance initially

    Fire damage support isn't just more than physical damage, it's also easier to include because you need a LM anyway and the rest is provided by RKs themselves

    Physical damage needs a Beorning and a Warden. There's barely any good Wardens around and Beorning is also only the third choice as a healer for Kizdul specifically (their cooldowns and range make them weaker than both Mini and Cappy)

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    Fire damage support isn't just more than physical damage, it's also easier to include because you need a LM anyway and the rest is provided by RKs themselves

    Physical damage needs a Beorning and a Warden. There's barely any good Wardens around and Beorning is also only the third choice as a healer for Kizdul specifically (their cooldowns and range make them weaker than both Mini and Cappy)
    True you are right, the thing is when you get proper setup melee group is always faster than ranged (our personal record was 1:33 with beorn tank/warden/burg/champ).
    But yeah the problem is ppl are bad at their classes and think melee is problematic.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    Yeah "technically" they aren't. But in reality they are. I am not one of those Champ whiners who cry after every new content is released that Champs are excluded, I don't even play a Champ at endgame (mine hasn't seen a raid since throne)

    But in this case it is correct

    The boss has far too much mitigation (and not enough morale) which makes mitigation debuffs far too powerful. If they added more morale and reduced the mitigations so that it took the same time to kill the boss it would be much better. As it stands everything with fire damage is at a great advantage and a 2 RK, 1 Hunter setup will just burn through the boss in no time.

    It actually took us about as much time to adapt our strategy to allow for a Champ in the setup as it took us to clear the instance initially

    Fire damage support isn't just more than physical damage, it's also easier to include because you need a LM anyway and the rest is provided by RKs themselves

    Physical damage needs a Beorning and a Warden. There's barely any good Wardens around and Beorning is also only the third choice as a healer for Kizdul specifically (their cooldowns and range make them weaker than both Mini and Cappy)
    Um.

    I think you'll find there is little/no difference between taking RK/Hunt/LM set up than there is taking Bear tank / Warden / Burg / Champ / LM, in fact, the melee version is actually faster. Both the bear and the warden have mitigation debuffs, the champ has +% incoming melee damage, burglar reveal weakness, LM Bear pet + Ancient Craft, which is a lot more reduction than what a ranged/fire group can offer and bring to the table. Groups that I've been in with melee DPS have always been faster than groups with ranged DPS.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Um.

    I think you'll find there is little/no difference between taking RK/Hunt/LM set up than there is taking Bear tank / Warden / Burg / Champ / LM, in fact, the melee version is actually faster. Both the bear and the warden have mitigation debuffs, the champ has +% incoming melee damage, burglar reveal weakness, LM Bear pet + Ancient Craft, which is a lot more reduction than what a ranged/fire group can offer and bring to the table. Groups that I've been in with melee DPS have always been faster than groups with ranged DPS.
    You win +inc dmg but you loose -mitigation. I agree you that your very specifically designed melee group can reach a similiar level of support compared to a random ranged/tactical group that you can build much easier

    Remember, Ancient Craft and other armour debuffs affect Tactical damage just like they affect Physical damage, for NPCs and Monsterplayers 1 armour = 1 phys and 1 tact mit

    Ranged/Fire has ~-50% mitigation while your group reaches -27,5%

    Your group reaches something around ~35-40ish% inc dmg while the ranged group only has 25% (both can either take a mini for anthems or another ~10% inc dmg from cappy/bear healer)

    It's much easier to find good RKs or Hunters compared to Wardens or even Burgs (honestly most DPS Burgs are just FOTM players who suck) and in addition to that ranged has a sturdier tank in a Cappy (or blue/red bear) while melee needs a blue/yellow bear

    I'm not saying melee is impossible, it's just you need to build a specific group to be competitive with a random plug and play ranged setup

  19. #19
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    'Lead the Charge' only worth half what it used to? How much was it selling for before?
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    You win +inc dmg but you loose -mitigation. I agree you that your very specifically designed melee group can reach a similiar level of support compared to a random ranged/tactical group that you can build much easier.
    Whats the difference between that very specifically designed melee group, Vs a very specifically designed ranged group? Don't see why you need to make that distinction tbh. When making the most ideal 6man group you take classes that compliment eachother, you're just hindering yourself if you don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    Remember, Ancient Craft and other armour debuffs affect Tactical damage just like they affect Physical damage, for NPCs and Monsterplayers 1 armour = 1 phys and 1 tact mit. Ranged/Fire has ~-50% mitigation while your group reaches -27,5%.
    Ranged does not have -50% mitigation in that set up. Fire can reach in excess of -45% mitigation, however this is only 66% of the time due to Tar duration/cooldown being as long as it is (Without it, you're at -35%). You take only a Hunter which means -10% physical mit (iirc, could be 5% dont remember). Furthermore, HeartSeeker, which is the Hunters highest damaging skill, draws its damage from bow damage type, not oil type.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    Your group reaches something around ~35-40ish% inc dmg while the ranged group only has 25% (both can either take a mini for anthems or another ~10% inc dmg from cappy/bear healer). It's much easier to find good RKs or Hunters compared to Wardens or even Burgs (honestly most DPS Burgs are just FOTM players who suck) and in addition to that ranged has a sturdier tank in a Cappy (or blue/red bear) while melee needs a blue/yellow bear.
    I agree about RK's, because it's the most braindead DPS class there is right now, but good hunters like other DPS classes are hard to come by, majority of Hunters are mediocre at best. Furthermore, I've seen no difference in difficulty between Captain Tank / Bear Tank, who the tank is really doesn't matter if you have a good healer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    I'm not saying melee is impossible, it's just you need to build a specific group to be competitive with a random plug and play ranged setup
    First comment. Furthermore, melee is by far not impossible and quicker / more DPS than a ranged group.
    Last edited by Hephburz-2; Sep 06 2019 at 09:19 AM.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    Yeah "technically" they aren't. But in reality they are.

    The boss has far too much mitigation (and not enough morale) which makes mitigation debuffs far too powerful. If they added more morale and reduced the mitigations so that it took the same time to kill the boss it would be much better. As it stands everything with fire damage is at a great advantage and a 2 RK, 1 Hunter setup will just burn through the boss in no time.

    It actually took us about as much time to adapt our strategy to allow for a Champ in the setup as it took us to clear the instance initially

    Fire damage support isn't just more than physical damage, it's also easier to include because you need a LM anyway and the rest is provided by RKs themselves

    Physical damage needs a Beorning and a Warden. There's barely any good Wardens around and Beorning is also only the third choice as a healer for Kizdul specifically (their cooldowns and range make them weaker than both Mini and Cappy)
    Clarification: by technically i meant literally. No instance since game launch between those applauded by the player-base majority was balanced enough to be as welcoming to every single class. I can bare with that and i think so should you and everyone else. There are extremes: instances nearly or completely impossible for a certain class are broken (e.g. Caverns). In contrast, instances equally fit for every class are usually mechanically oversimplified. Of course there's a lot of grey area in between, but i think we can all agree Depths T3 at launch did not belong to either category. Therefore it should be acknowledged to communicate players' request for quality content or at least not as heavily criticized.

    The fact your progress required about as much time to adapt (your) strategy to allow for a Champ in the setup as it took (you) to clear the instance initially is a matter of choice. Your acknowledgment of good Wardens and Beornings verifies that. If a buddy of yours played a good -by your standards- champion main, you'd probably progress through that.
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  22. #22
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    Just got out of a T3 and some T5 runs. Guess what...

    T3 is now a circus show for any group that can do the basics. Tactics are hardly needed anymore. A couple of mediocre -let alone decently- geared damage dealers can burn through the boss before mechanics are fully developed (:2min mark) with ease.

    T5 is basically old T3 with RNG. It's as challenging as the initial instance launch in terms of damage, gear requirements, group communication and tactical approach.
    Everything is pretty much in place but fun!
    Because even if everything is perfectly executed, the group might face a reflecting scion in the form of a void eater that will 2-shot the npc (thus resetting the gauntlet) or a healing scion in the form of a maw in the last boss fight that will force it to place puddles till there's not any room to work with despite double or triple placements*, or a tactical/physical damage negating scion in a pool that removes any sense of freedom in choosing the class composition or... or... or...

    *Mechanics that force the group to adapt to the fight in different ways are much welcome (e.g. old tier 3 hard mode). Scions are not mechanics. They're projections of 95lvl cap. If any similar system is carried on or introduced to the next 12-man raid, consider end-game dead. The fact i feel like referring to the initial instance layout that released less than a month ago as ''old'' is beyond sad.

    How -and when!- on earth did we sink from the glimpse of vintage, intricate end-game PvE, which had made LOTRO arguably the best MMO RPG, that The depths of Kidzul-kâlah Tier 3 initially were, to this comical, futile, unrewarding, boring, poorly designed grind fest offering landscape drops(?!). And why invest time, money and energy into building mechanics that can be bypassed weeks after going live?!

    What's the matter with devs?


    PS: I'm genuinely interested in hearing from anyone who actually enjoyed his experience in Tier 5 Depths, as presumably the developing team must had had some generic notion of what the community is lacking and craving for. So, who is pleased? And why?
    Last edited by Demosthenes11; Sep 06 2019 at 08:35 PM.
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  23. #23
    I agree with Demosthenes & Heph.

    I’ve completed both T3 & T5, T3 with a variety of groups and T5 with a melee group. The instance requires coordination, control, positioning, movement and communication and not stand still and nuke.

    I think SSG are on the right path here, content for too long has been tank and nuke.

    My only criticism is the combination of scions, I don’t mind combination scions at the same time, but the healing and mitigation at the same time was a particularly nasty combo, I think this could be fine tuned some what.

    More of this please SSG.
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  24. #24
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    Same for the other Ered Mithrin instances, why the hack is the base become easier and only scions join the figths.

    A idea to catch up the easy base is douple or evejn triple scion buffs on one mop. e.g. 0% inc range and tactical +set the others to 90% mits + the fire field buff would be something nice to see.
    or let them come in pairs with the same buff. e.g. 2 at one time with set the others to 90%.
    Or let the bosses be allways a scion. And then let´s the foes have allways the same scion buff->no reseting until you got some easy.
    Last edited by Mukor; Sep 09 2019 at 06:06 AM.

  25. #25
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    From my perspective the best group setup for KK T5 is this:

    Bear
    LM
    Minstrel
    Warden
    Champ
    Burg

    Bear do the tanking - All classes then increase the DPS of the others in the group in some way.

    When we did T5 we had this setup:
    Captain
    LM
    Minstrel
    Warden
    2x burg

    Link to video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzxe...ature=youtu.be

    This lineup also killed the boss in just over 2 min, but with a champ and bear tank instead of captain and 1 more burg it would be even quicker (Ofcourse with players that can play)
    The difference between a good burg and a good champ is miles away tho. A burg will do good dps with every rotation. A good champ requires weapon swapping etc etc..

    There is like 3-4 champs on evernight that i redeem very good. Burgs are much more easier and therefore much easier to find (that do decent dps)
    Last edited by NImlonda; Sep 10 2019 at 03:29 AM.
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