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  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    More inclusive to what extent, exactly? Just how far do you want to push this? Do you (for example) honestly expect it to reflect the diversity of contemporary American society (as the OP appears to) or if not, what *would* you like to see?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_Lethargy View Post
    I'd like to see a few darker skinned elves around the game as well as get the option make them. That's about it.
    Same, I literally just asked for the ability to make them.

  2. #177
    Personally, no. There is existing representation in the majority of the races in the game (including the most relevant: Man). If it were diversity affecting the race of Men, then I would wholeheartedly agree with the OP. If the Elves were considered more powerful than the other races ingame, then I would also agree with the OP.

    The game might be "more" inclusive with darker skin tones for Elves, but it still would not be inclusive. To some extent skin tone is linked to heritage as well, for the OP's consideration (with regards to implementation). I dare say the framework of the game could never allow true inclusion (how would you represent ASD? Gamers with a disability?). While 6-foot Hobbits might go against the lore, a height slider for all races isn't unreasonable. What about inclusive eye textures for all races?

    In thinking on this, it's more a travesty that the game has a storyline revolving around war and violence and DOESN'T have maimed NPCs*. Physical disabilities of any kind (whether genetic or due to injury) aren't represented at all*, only in obscure portions of text (no, i'm not counting static, dismembered corpses).

    *I haven't played past Helm's Deep FWIW.
    Last edited by Sovereign50; Today at 12:23 AM.

  3. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sovereign50 View Post
    Personally, no. There is existing representation in the majority of the races in the game (including the most relevant: Man). If it were diversity affecting the race of Men, then I would wholeheartedly agree with the OP. If the Elves were considered more powerful than the other races ingame, then I would also agree with the OP.

    The game might be "more" inclusive with darker skin tones for Elves, but it still would not be inclusive. To some extent skin tone is linked to heritage as well, for the OP's consideration (with regards to implementation). I dare say the framework of the game could never allow true inclusion (how would you represent ASD? Gamers with a disability?). While 6-foot Hobbits might go against the lore, a height slider for all races isn't unreasonable. What about inclusive eye textures for all races?

    In thinking on this, it's more a travesty that the game has a storyline revolving around war and violence and DOESN'T have maimed NPCs*. Physical disabilities of any kind (whether genetic or due to injury) aren't represented at all*, only in obscure portions of text (no, i'm not counting static, dismembered corpses).

    *I haven't played past Helm's Deep FWIW.
    I'd be on board with some of these types of representation including more diverse elves (and a height slider is /signed a million times); however I doubt stuff like missing limbs could be implemented for player characters just because of the way the game works. Might be able to get away with a few missing fingers or something.
    Meanwhile ASD (picking that example because it's something I'm more familiar with, but this applies to some other stuff as well) is something I think would have to be presented more through the writing of NPCs. As a character customization option it'd be pretty useless and is probably better off just being RPed, which can be done already.
    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

  4. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Langie View Post
    Ok I concede that Hobbits aren't a very good example of what I was getting at, for reasons you've stated above.

    Try substituting fat elves instead. I'm not particularly rotund, but let's just pretend I am and that I'd like to play a much larger framed elf than those that the game allows. Should the game developers go completely against type and include stout bodied elves so that I feel included?
    I think that's another complicated issue for a different thread. But for my personal opinion I would refer you back to my previous comment on role in the story and content of character.

  5. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunhut View Post
    See post...
    Seen it all the first time around, not only were your arguments about medieval times bad for all the reasons I've stated but you tried to strawman why I'd disagreed with them.

    You see you keep saying that but have yet to provide an actual example of it. Besides even if it is true that does not mean those people would have viewed other dark skinned depictions of supernatural entities as wrong or aberrant. In fact, you can find depictions of a dark skinned Jesus in 1064 Belgian Lobbes bible, (made and manufacture in Belgium), or a dark skinned Jesus, Joseph, and Mary in 1025 Anglo-Saxon England. Are they any less part of the culture? By saying they could not have imagined supernatural entities in slightly less familiar terms you are placing unnecessary limitations on the imaginations of those people and inspiring culture. It is also worth noting that even if they could not imagine things beyond the familiar, we do not necessarily need to obey their supposed aggregated self-image. https://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/post/...fied-christ-in
    I can, in fact, point to multiple examples (and there are countless others). More than enough to show that people were portraying such figures as resembling what they themselves looked like, i.e. in terms familiar to them, long before the 17th century and that your assertion was simply wrong. Western art history is full of this stuff from across the centuries.

    Stavelot Bible - late 11th century.
    Floreffe Bible - 12th century.
    Book of Kells - 9th century.
    Westminster Psalter - 13th century.

    And I note you only mention Jesus, Mary and Joseph - depictions of whom were after all believed to represent real people, and some people might after all have actually gone on pilgrimage to the Holy Land and seen for themselves what people there looked like. Fancy that. And meanwhile, in places which were more diverse, the depictions are more diverse as well. Fancy that, it's just as if people were going by what they knew and saw every day.

  6. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_Lethargy View Post
    darker skinned elves
    Meaning what, exactly? How dark is 'darker'?

  7. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_Lethargy View Post
    If it makes you feel any better, I'm not trying to say you or most of the other posters in this thread are secretly evil racists .
    and after this you clarifying that you have found 2, (yes use your magic!), so you r calling 2 of us racists......
    reason? we dont want to change lore! or maybe some other reason in your mind, again tks a lot!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_Lethargy View Post
    What? I literally said I don't think most of the posters here are racist.

    On the other hand, I do think you (and you specifically) are overtly racist due to this post in response to beautiful artwork of POC elves:

    Whether or not you want more diverse elves in-game, that's a pretty horrible thing to say. Back on the ignore list you go.
    and here you have framed me! tks a lot again! as i said to Lunhut too, i dont ignore people!
    reason: i respect the opinions others having, even if i disagree with them!
    have fun whatever you do !
    lotr enthousiast since 1996, 12 years lotro player, lifetimer, Loyal member of the Spartans Kinship, now in Evernight imigrants from Eldar

  8. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Langie View Post
    I don't see what you're getting at here, I don't think what Valakircka was saying there was particularly offensive. It probably has more to do with the language barrier than an intentional insult.
    tks but dont need to bother with this anymore
    what is really interesting to me is that both of them, Lunhut and Lady, havent said a thing about Turin347 reply!
    and if she is ignoring me, i ll say this here......... yes dark skin tone elves are orcs in tolkien's universe,
    they were avari, captured by morgroth who made with them a grotesque version of a being, out of rage to eru n the other valar, because he couldnt create a real being....
    and because of egoism, same ego shown here in this very thread not by the majority but only 2 of the posters! just to bent the lore to have a little thing a mind can generate and
    have endless posts since we have nothing else to do(since you have framed me Lady, i can do the same, cant i???).
    Last edited by Valakircka; Today at 04:50 AM.
    lotr enthousiast since 1996, 12 years lotro player, lifetimer, Loyal member of the Spartans Kinship, now in Evernight imigrants from Eldar

  9. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by djheydt View Post
    Well, Men -- the species, not the gender -- have excellent reasons for having varying skin tones. It was a matter, over many generations, of survival.

    https://satwcomic.com/we-re-all-too-...for-this-world

    (If you're not familiar with this comic, all the characters represent their native countries, and wear T-shirts made from their flags. The blond guy is Norway, and the black guy is Central African Republic.)

    We would have to find a reason for thinking that some Elves, over time, moved toward the equator and found additional melanin in their skin to be a benefit. Tolkien, even though he was born in South Africa and his earliest playmates were the (black) house servants' kids, doesn't seem to have addressed this question.
    Having actually looked at skin sections, that's not how it works in real life. Barring differences in melanin type, "pale" skin and "black" skin have the same amount of melanin. The difference is literally skin deep. That's right, it is the depth of distribution. And since the outer layers of epidermis are derived from dead layers beneath it, said shedded outer layers contain some of that melanin in it.
    "No sadder words of tongue or pen are the words: 'Might have been'." -- John Greenleaf Whittier
    "Do or do not. There is no try." -- Yoda
    On planet Earth, there is a try.
    Indeed, in a world and life full of change, the only constant is human nature (A is A, after all :P).
    We old vets need to keep in mind those who come after us.

  10. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by cdq1958 View Post
    Having actually looked at skin sections, that's not how it works in real life. Barring differences in melanin type, "pale" skin and "black" skin have the same amount of melanin. The difference is literally skin deep. That's right, it is the depth of distribution. And since the outer layers of epidermis are derived from dead layers beneath it, said shedded outer layers contain some of that melanin in it.




    Even if your assumption was right (and I'm sure it is, just please, ask Wikipedia to correct their version if misleading) the things remain exactly the same. And Wikipedia provides even an explaination why it would be very cruel to force dark-skinned people into the North.
    In any case, let me know about the outcomes of your discussion with the team supporting Wikipedia, I'm personally very interested about what is right.

  11. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turin347 View Post
    Even if your assumption was right (and I'm sure it is, just please, ask Wikipedia to correct their version if misleading) the things remain exactly the same. And Wikipedia provides even an explaination why it would be very cruel to force dark-skinned people into the North.
    In any case, let me know about the outcomes of your discussion with the team supporting Wikipedia, I'm personally very interested about what is right.
    love your posts!
    fot he people called me racist,
    keep posting!!!
    lotr enthousiast since 1996, 12 years lotro player, lifetimer, Loyal member of the Spartans Kinship, now in Evernight imigrants from Eldar

  12. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turin347 View Post



    Even if your assumption was right (and I'm sure it is, just please, ask Wikipedia to correct their version if misleading) the things remain exactly the same. And Wikipedia provides even an explaination why it would be very cruel to force dark-skinned people into the North.
    In any case, let me know about the outcomes of your discussion with the team supporting Wikipedia, I'm personally very interested about what is right.
    No assumption at all. And do not trust Wikipedia on anything that has political overtones. Hint, there are ways to actually measure it. Since I have no rights to edit anything; and know from those who do what happens when it goes against certain viewpoints, why bother. Facts are still facts, even when there are contingencies involved. Also, having done some of these kinds of studies (peer reviewed, even if not published in a periodical) in the past; I know very well how you get treated if you don't toe the line.
    "No sadder words of tongue or pen are the words: 'Might have been'." -- John Greenleaf Whittier
    "Do or do not. There is no try." -- Yoda
    On planet Earth, there is a try.
    Indeed, in a world and life full of change, the only constant is human nature (A is A, after all :P).
    We old vets need to keep in mind those who come after us.

  13. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by cdq1958 View Post
    No assumption at all. And do not trust Wikipedia on anything that has political overtones. Hint, there are ways to actually measure it. Since I have no rights to edit anything; and know from those who do what happens when it goes against certain viewpoints, why bother. Facts are still facts, even when there are contingencies involved. Also, having done some of these kinds of studies (peer reviewed, even if not published in a periodical) in the past; I know very well how you get treated if you don't toe the line.

    I accept the objection regarding the reliability of Wikipedia for some subjects, even if I want to detach myself from questioning the work and passion of the experts who work together to draw up such an omnia encyclopedia, I think they deserve at least a little "kudos".
    In any case, I dusted off a paper I found for personal interest some time ago. Specific researches on the subject of the discussion are not easy to be found, but I think this is the most targeted.

    (Everything in the capture is public).


  14. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turin347 View Post
    I accept the objection regarding the reliability of Wikipedia for some subjects, even if I want to detach myself from questioning the work and passion of the experts who work together to draw up such an omnia encyclopedia, I think they deserve at least a little "kudos".
    In any case, I dusted off a paper I found for personal interest some time ago. Specific researches on the subject of the discussion are not easy to be found, but I think this is the most targeted.

    (Everything in the capture is public).

    Hmm, more recent than when I last looked at this.
    Thanks
    "No sadder words of tongue or pen are the words: 'Might have been'." -- John Greenleaf Whittier
    "Do or do not. There is no try." -- Yoda
    On planet Earth, there is a try.
    Indeed, in a world and life full of change, the only constant is human nature (A is A, after all :P).
    We old vets need to keep in mind those who come after us.

 

 
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