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Thread: The DDO factor

  1. #1
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    The DDO factor

    We struggle to understand why SSG do the things they do? Least I do.


    Is it because those who are DDO players have grown up with playing AD&D and have dice and chance ingrained in their psyche.

    Most of us who play Lotro would have had the option to choose DDO but we chose Lotro instead.

    The basic choice we made is reward for effort. Not trying to relive our 00 rolls on our loaded dice in a video game.

    Does this explain things?
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballie View Post
    We struggle to understand why SSG do the things they do? Least I do.


    Is it because those who are DDO players have grown up with playing AD&D and have dice and chance ingrained in their psyche.

    Most of us who play Lotro would have had the option to choose DDO but we chose Lotro instead.

    The basic choice we made is reward for effort. Not trying to relive our 00 rolls on our loaded dice in a video game.

    Does this explain things?
    I don't know how old you are; but I am an old greybeard granddad and *every* game I have ever played had a random element to it; from toddling on. Random elements do not necessarily detract from reward for effort (see poker). Plus, define effort ;p.
    "No sadder words of tongue or pen are the words: 'Might have been'." -- John Greenleaf Whittier
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    Indeed, in a world and life full of change, the only constant is human nature (A is A, after all :P).
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  3. #3
    The number one issue in any game, mmo or single player, is content. Simply put, players consume content faster than it can be created.

    Single player games this is fine, as players beat the game and move on. However for mmo's it creates numerous issues. Since Mmo's are online 24/7 you need players playing 24/7 and you need players paying 24/7. As I said above, devs can't make content faster than players can consume it, so devs need to extend the content. They do this by introducing dailies, grinds, random loot drops, no mounts till lvl 40, loot each body 1 by 1, limited porting, multiple tiers per instance etc.

    Ssg is in a particularly bad spot since they are a small team. They make rather small updates every 8 months, at least small compared to other Mmo's. So the grinds and other tricks look bad since they stand on their own instead of being hidden behind content.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cdq1958 View Post
    I don't know how old you are; but I am an old greybeard granddad and *every* game I have ever played had a random element to it; from toddling on. Random elements do not necessarily detract from reward for effort (see poker). Plus, define effort ;p.
    My old kin used to do Ford RSkirm because there were great tanking bracelets in there. Specific reward, chance to get it to drop and win it but once gotten, time to move on to other goals.

    These days there aren't the specific rewards but it's a case of the you "win" that item and then additional dice are rolled to see just how good it is, with a what 99% chance it's not the best it could be. So rather than help your mates to a piece they are looking for in whatever raid instance and skirmish and once gotten you were done it turns into never actually getting the best piece, unless extremely lucky.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballie View Post
    My old kin used to do Ford RSkirm because there were great tanking bracelets in there. Specific reward, chance to get it to drop and win it but once gotten, time to move on to other goals.

    These days there aren't the specific rewards but it's a case of the you "win" that item and then additional dice are rolled to see just how good it is, with a what 99% chance it's not the best it could be. So rather than help your mates to a piece they are looking for in whatever raid instance and skirmish and once gotten you were done it turns into never actually getting the best piece, unless extremely lucky.
    Ok, understood; but you did't define effort ;p.
    "No sadder words of tongue or pen are the words: 'Might have been'." -- John Greenleaf Whittier
    "Do or do not. There is no try." -- Yoda
    On planet Earth, there is a try.
    Indeed, in a world and life full of change, the only constant is human nature (A is A, after all :P).
    We old vets need to keep in mind those who come after us.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballie View Post
    We struggle to understand why SSG do the things they do? Least I do.


    Is it because those who are DDO players have grown up with playing AD&D and have dice and chance ingrained in their psyche.

    Most of us who play Lotro would have had the option to choose DDO but we chose Lotro instead.

    The basic choice we made is reward for effort. Not trying to relive our 00 rolls on our loaded dice in a video game.

    Does this explain things?
    you don't mind if I disagree do you? I played tabletop for many, many, years. I started playing MMORPG's because they were similar, and work in my available time. I tried DDO, but didn't stay with it because I didn't like the interface, and lack of control configuration options. I came to LOTRO because I've a huge Tolkien fan since the 70's, and it reminded me of MERP table top. This past 15 years have seen a degradation in roleplayers in MMORPG's, and an influx is console gamers ... not a good thing
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by eanamdar View Post
    you don't mind if I disagree do you? I played tabletop for many, many, years. I started playing MMORPG's because they were similar, and work in my available time. I tried DDO, but didn't stay with it because I didn't like the interface, and lack of control configuration options. I came to LOTRO because I've a huge Tolkien fan since the 70's, and it reminded me of MERP table top. This past 15 years have seen a degradation in roleplayers in MMORPG's, and an influx is console gamers ... not a good thing
    I am an old man that has played D&D since it's Chainmail roots, and many other tabletop games, mainly wargames. LOTRO was the first MMO that I started playing mainly because I am a Tolkien fan from the 60s. And you are so correct in stating that there has been a distinct degradation in RPers in MMORPGs over the past 15 years, and a shift towards console gamers. Along with LOTRO, Pantheon might be the only hope left on the MMORPG horizon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elquasso View Post
    I am an old man that has played D&D since it's Chainmail roots, and many other tabletop games, mainly wargames. LOTRO was the first MMO that I started playing mainly because I am a Tolkien fan from the 60s. And you are so correct in stating that there has been a distinct degradation in RPers in MMORPGs over the past 15 years, and a shift towards console gamers. Along with LOTRO, Pantheon might be the only hope left on the MMORPG horizon.
    A kindred spirit
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    I bring word from Lord Elrond of Rivendell. An Alliance once existed between Elves and Men. Long ago we fought and died together. We come to honor that allegiance.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Elquasso View Post
    I am an old man that has played D&D since it's Chainmail roots, and many other tabletop games, mainly wargames. LOTRO was the first MMO that I started playing mainly because I am a Tolkien fan from the 60s. And you are so correct in stating that there has been a distinct degradation in RPers in MMORPGs over the past 15 years, and a shift towards console gamers. Along with LOTRO, Pantheon might be the only hope left on the MMORPG horizon.
    I'd also recommend WoW Classic for an old school Mmo feeling. It probably has the best Mmo formula and follows it quite well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteWolf21x View Post
    I'd also recommend WoW Classic for an old school Mmo feeling. It probably has the best Mmo formula and follows it quite well.
    Yes, I do, too. I recently took a break from LOTRO and tried WoW for the first time. Lightshope (Mangos) is free and open source, with a huge multinational crowd. That was a blast, but I always return to LOTRO. Wouldn't you just love to see LOTRO classic, open source, private servers? I know, not likely SSG can afford to release code like Blizzard did.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Lohdain_Meneldor View Post
    Yes, I do, too. I recently took a break from LOTRO and tried WoW for the first time. Lightshope (Mangos) is free and open source, with a huge multinational crowd. That was a blast, but I always return to LOTRO. Wouldn't you just love to see LOTRO classic, open source, private servers? I know, not likely SSG can afford to release code like Blizzard did.
    Honestly I want a Lotro 2.0 more than anything else. A lot of people say Vanilla Lotro was good, and I'm sure a SoA server would be successful, but the game could have been 10x better. Just imagine a Lotro with the same classes, same landscape design, same combat and gameplay systems but with a solid philosophy and long term game plan. It could be the best MMO ever made. And the best part is we already have the dev team, SSG/Tbine has proven that they are capable of making a MMO. All we need now is to find a leader with the vision to do so. (And the money to hire more devs and build a new game lol.)

    I'm not saying I'm that guy but here is my vision for a Lotro 2.0 - https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...or-a-Lotro-2-0 (shameless plug) It's still a work in progress but I think its pretty solid.




    As per OP, I've already answered your question. But to add, WoW is also going through a phase of randomness that many players dislike. It's one of the many reasons people are excited for WoW Classic. So Lotro is not the only game suffering from the DDO factor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteWolf21x View Post
    As per OP, I've already answered your question. But to add, WoW is also going through a phase of randomness that many players dislike. It's one of the many reasons people are excited for WoW Classic. So Lotro is not the only game suffering from the DDO factor.
    Yeah I was checking out a WOW streamer on twitch first day of WOW Classic Beta, all the memories came flooding back. All the later failures removed and a proper recreation. Between the classic server announcement and now, SSG had reacted and already gotten LSs into Mirkwood. The WOW Sub would have to be huge given the relative work done to bring them about. But I gather not.



    The regular server developer discussions on twitch are another matter, constant player abuse because the guy in charge has no clue what damage he is doing to the main game. Oblivious to the players angst, in complete denial, not even looking at the chat for questions, just taking them from a prepared list from sycophantic groupies.


    Why is every MMO bent on self destruction?
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ballie View Post
    Why is every MMO bent on self destruction?
    Because it's not about making good games anymore. The gaming industry wants easy money, ideally as fast as possible. In the age of mobile games and quick cash grabs, proper MMOs are just too much effort.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ballie View Post
    Yeah I was checking out a WOW streamer on twitch first day of WOW Classic Beta, all the memories came flooding back. All the later failures removed and a proper recreation. Between the classic server announcement and now, SSG had reacted and already gotten LSs into Mirkwood. The WOW Sub would have to be huge given the relative work done to bring them about. But I gather not.
    I don't think WoW Classic had any say on LS Mirkwood, SSG has said they have ambitious plans for Minas Morgul so I think they are getting everything out of the way so they can focus on the expansion.

    As for WoW, I think the biggest reason for the Classic remake was the private server popularity. And judging from the Classic Beta reaction I expect a significant uptick in subs for WoW. Blizzard will for sure make their money back and more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ballie View Post
    The regular server developer discussions on twitch are another matter, constant player abuse because the guy in charge has no clue what damage he is doing to the main game. Oblivious to the players angst, in complete denial, not even looking at the chat for questions, just taking them from a prepared list from sycophantic groupies.
    I like Ion, and he definitely knows what he is doing. He has played the game since launch and is was (still is) part of a serious raid guild. If anything he is the kind of person you want running the game. He has made mistakes, like all developers but there are interviews where he understands the philosophy behind Classic WoW and why certain changes are good or bad for the game. So hopefully he can turn Retail around.

    He was also a lawyer which is why the Q/A's are always terrible, with all his lawyer speech lol.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ballie View Post
    Why is every MMO bent on self destruction?
    Quote Originally Posted by Daenirion View Post
    Because it's not about making good games anymore. The gaming industry wants easy money, ideally as fast as possible. In the age of mobile games and quick cash grabs, proper MMOs are just too much effort.
    I wouldn't say the industry wants easy money, there are hundreds of great games released every year. But this is part of the answer. MMO's are extremely expensive and time consuming to make compared to other genre's. But there are several other reasons as well. As I said above, content is probably the biggest reason. Listening to the loud minority, not following the formula, bad decision making are some others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballie View Post
    We struggle to understand why SSG do the things they do? Least I do.


    Is it because those who are DDO players have grown up with playing AD&D and have dice and chance ingrained in their psyche.

    Most of us who play Lotro would have had the option to choose DDO but we chose Lotro instead.
    Well ... I played the DDO beta and said, "This is NOT for me."

    I like playing healers, so I made a cleric ... and wiped endless quests because I ran out of Mana before I ran out of quest, and everybody died. I complained about this on the beta forums, and everybody who'd played D&D said, "But! A cleric is a Powerful War Mage!"

    Well, not at level 1 she isn't, and I never got out of level 1, because, see above.[/QUOTE]
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by djheydt View Post
    Well ... I played the DDO beta and said, "This is NOT for me."

    I like playing healers, so I made a cleric ... and wiped endless quests because I ran out of Mana before I ran out of quest, and everybody died. I complained about this on the beta forums, and everybody who'd played D&D said, "But! A cleric is a Powerful War Mage!"

    Well, not at level 1 she isn't, and I never got out of level 1, because, see above.
    [/QUOTE]

    This thread made me realize that I an about to notch my 40th anniversary of playing table-top D&D. It was the summer of 1979. I was bored waiting for summer football practice to start. My older brother and his friends were playing this new game .... I confess that I haven't played much table-top over the past few years. But was part of an active, regular group as recently as 2015. In fact, if not for a drought of table-top opportunities when I changed cities circa 1997, I never would have found MMOs. I was jonzin' so hard for RP, but lacked a decent computer (it could play solo Forgotten Realms games, but not much else). I did, however, have a PS2. Then EQOA was released for the PS2, and I tried it. Found all the fun and RP I could ever want. When FFXI opened on the PS2, many of us on EQOA migrated. We all started getting better home computers, and we moved on to games like WoW, LOTRO, Age of Conan, etc. To this day, I still occasionally see one of those original EQOA-PS2 buddies in LOTRO or SWTOR.

    For the record, some of us tried DDO, but we didn't like it and didn't stay. Okay ... "Story Time" with Uncle Thor is over. To address the OP's point:

    As an engineer and mathematician, I like a solvable equation. A + B = C. Or, in MMOs, Time + Effort = Specific, known reward. I'm not very keen when the formula works: A + B = C (maybe, but sometimes, you get Q). But I understand why the RNG is so integral to loot tables. Knowing I get a specific, fixed reward to complete a Raid incentivizes me to run the Raid once (or, at most, once for me and each of my friends who wants that item). Knowing I have a chance to get that reward may induce me to run it over and over until the RNG gods deem me worthy. Granted, it may cause some players to abandon the effort altogether. But I'm betting that SSG is betting on lots more repeated play of a specific Raid if the rewards remain uncertain. And one thing every MMO publisher has in common is their universal desire to keep us playing.

    I was never a fan of the random treasure tables in the D&D DMG. I always seemed to end up with junk my Ranger would never use. Or worse, no one in the party would/could use. But the disdain for random loot was hardly universal. My brother had an impressive talent for taking some random piece of dross regurgitated from the magic item table and using it to help craft his character's persona in a way that may deviate from the common tropes. Me? I'd just fuss and pout when my bow-wielding Ranger ended up with a handful of crossbow bolts.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteWolf21x View Post
    Honestly I want a Lotro 2.0 more than anything else. A lot of people say Vanilla Lotro was good, and I'm sure a SoA server would be successful, but the game could have been 10x better. Just imagine a Lotro with the same classes, same landscape design, same combat and gameplay systems but with a solid philosophy and long term game plan. It could be the best MMO ever made. And the best part is we already have the dev team, SSG/Tbine has proven that they are capable of making a MMO.
    I'm pretty sure (almost) everyone who was originally responsible for the overall brilliance of SoA is long gone. If I had my way, I'd give the IP to Larian Studios. They could do some amazing things (if they weren't too busy with ... something else!)

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    gonna be honest here, I have no idea what you're talking about/trying to get at
    .

    I really only play this game and guild wars 2 religiously for 6 years
    mmos are just made that way. a lot of people come for the game, stay for the friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorsock
    This thread made me realize that I an about to notch my 40th anniversary of playing table-top D&D...1979.....
    Yeah, we *should* learn to stop doing that kind of math, but I do the same thing every time an old movie comes on. I check the year and the math just happens...

    Doesn't seem like the 70s should be that long ago, does it?

    ------

    edit for topic: As for randomized effects in a "game"... Every game ever invented has a random effect generator of some sort. That's what makes a game a game. Roll dice to see how far you move on a board, draw a card to see what happens next, spin the spinner ... etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devolved View Post
    Yeah, we *should* learn to stop doing that kind of math, but I do the same thing every time an old movie comes on. I check the year and the math just happens...

    Doesn't seem like the 70s should be that long ago, does it?

    ------

    edit for topic: As for randomized effects in a "game"... Every game ever invented has a random effect generator of some sort. That's what makes a game a game. Roll dice to see how far you move on a board, draw a card to see what happens next, spin the spinner ... etc.
    Games have rules and goals. Of course, random elements don't have to be there; but they usually are, just as in life. What does irritate me, some, is the conflation of sports and games. While that is understandable given every sport I know of is a game; not every game is a sport. Why? Sports tend to be zero-sum games and not all games are zero-sum, for its participants.

    Hmm, the 1970s were when my high school and university graduations happened. I got a 40th notice from my old high school a few years ago (45th is next year). I didn't, directly, get one (40th) from my university, this year. I am that old ;p, with a 40th from my post-graduate school due in a few years.
    "No sadder words of tongue or pen are the words: 'Might have been'." -- John Greenleaf Whittier
    "Do or do not. There is no try." -- Yoda
    On planet Earth, there is a try.
    Indeed, in a world and life full of change, the only constant is human nature (A is A, after all :P).
    We old vets need to keep in mind those who come after us.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Talorwen View Post
    gonna be honest here, I have no idea what you're talking about/trying to get at
    .

    I really only play this game and guild wars 2 religiously for 6 years
    mmos are just made that way. a lot of people come for the game, stay for the friends.
    Yes, MMo's have always had some randomness to them. For example, kill X boss for 5% chance to get Y gear. Nothing is wrong with this model.

    But lately MMO's have moved to add more rng. For example. kill X boss for 5% chance to get Y gear. Y gear has 50% chance to have either A stats or B stats. Y gear also has a 20% chance to have 1-5 item levels higher.

    So instead of doing X to get Y, it has become do X to maybe get the version of Y you want.

    WoW is the worst culprit of this as nearly everything in BfA is randomized. Instead of getting tokens for dailies you get a chest with a random piece of gear. Gear can have random traits. Crafted gear can have random stats. Warforging and Titanforging means the chance of getting BiS gear is extremely low. Lotro isn't to bad with limited ilevel boosts and random gear rewards being the only issue.

  22. #22
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    Thanks for the input. The grass isn't greener elsewhere. I was casting aspersions on SSG for inventing this dreadful model. Apologies SSG.
    Looking more like a pyramid/ponzi scheme where all the publishers are extoling the virtues of their model until the bubble bursts.
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  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Ballie View Post
    Thanks for the input. The grass isn't greener elsewhere. I was casting aspersions on SSG for inventing this dreadful model. Apologies SSG.
    Looking more like a pyramid/ponzi scheme where all the publishers are extoling the virtues of their model until the bubble bursts.
    Actually I would say its 100% a developer issue. Take raiding for example. In a perfect world we would get 2-3 t2c multi boss raids a year. LFF would be full of raid groups and life would be good. However SSG only has the manpower to release one 3-4 boss raid year. You cant maintain a player base with 1 raid a year, so they need to find ways to extend the content. Which is why we get 3+ tiers, further randomized rewards and other questionable design decisions. The same thing can be said about any aspect of the game. The developers don't have the manpower to create enough content to maintain a solid player base, so they need to "extend" the content to keep players playing.


    This is why WoW expansions tend to be on good every other expansion because even Blizzard struggles to make enough content in 2 years to satisfy the player base.


    Eso seems to be the only MMO that is currently thriving because they add new content to the game every 3 months, players almost never run out of things to do.

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    In that perfect world we'd not have had so many drop the game when fed up with the choices that were made. Discerning players leaving leaves what?

    One of the remaining bastions is the lore community, is this latest shot going to wreak havoc there?

    They could argue it's the players' choices for their recreation needs and deny that it's poor ideas badly implemented. Each new thing ends up as another opportunity for someone else to give up on the game. You'd have thought that it would be paramount to replace those who leave but we have banal streaming and the huge grinds in place to keep veterans busy that makes starting anew an utter nightmare when it dawns on them; the latest thing adding yet more to this.


    People forgive the mistakes due to the small team, but it's of their own making. This is Lotr. THE title.
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