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  1. #1

    Drawing attention back to champions (hopefully)

    I would like to draw attention back to the lack of viable heals that champions have.
    I am aware that we have Bracing Attack, Dire Need and Fight On but those are underperforming these days.

    Fight On may heal for 3% a tick (every 2 seconds for those not knowing what per tick means) for 20 seconds but it has a hefty 3 minute cooldown.
    I would suggest making Fight On look more like Hearten and heals x amount of morale per second for 8 seconds with a 14 second cooldown.
    Then add a trait that turns Fight On into a percentage heal, like Composure for Hearten, that lets us heal 3% max morale every second for 8 seconds with a 14 second cooldown.
    Composure allows you to rank up 5 times, first one rank turning Hearten to Composure then rank 2-5 adds 0.5% max morale per second.
    This would be a decent boost for Champion ability you survive longer.

    Bracing Attack only heals 6,483 morale (for me) and has a 30 second cooldown. The animation also feels clunky.
    Although it also gets a boost with our Champion Rune's incoming healing rating, our rating only improves by 2500 from ranks 38 to 63.
    I would suggest making Bracing Attack heal instant, reducing the cooldown from 30 seconds to 15 seconds, removing the Bracing Attack Heal legacy and adding the max rank to Bracing Attack's initial heal.
    Also, improving the Champion Rune's incoming ratings to 15k by rank 63 would also be helpful.

    Dire Need (a blue line heal that I just noticed and pondered about) is the last and final heal I know of with a 2 minute cooldown.
    From what I noticed, in blue line's trait, the heal is sacrificing 30% of your max power in exchange for 400% of that value as a morale heal.
    Also, there is a separate trait that allows you to get 100% more morale from power.

    Let's do some math (yay).
    I have 6,321 power right now, and I am level 120. 10% of that is 632.1. 3 times that is 1896.3.
    That means that the heal sacrifices 1,896.3 power for 400% (4x) for basic Dire Need trait or 500% with max Improved Dire Need trait.
    1,896.3 x 4 = 7,585.2 and 1896.3 x 5 = 9,481.5.
    You will sacrifice 30% max power for 7,585.2 morale if you just have Dire Need and 9,481.5 morale if you have maxed out Improved Dire Need.

    Those numbers seemed like a good idea back when our morale was much much much lower than how morale we can get today.
    With my current morale pool of 87,877 (weird number, I know), 9481.5% is roughly 10.79% of my max morale.
    I've seen champions running around with at least 170k morale with gear. 9,481.5 morale is roughly 5.57% their max morale.

    I am no expert here but I doubt anyone will want to sacrifice 30% power for 10.8% morale or 5.6% morale every 2 minutes.
    Dire Need is the only heal I know of out of all 10 classes that it degenerates as you get better gear.
    There is no way to increase your maximum power without essences and tomes.

    I don't know where to begin with suggestions how to fix Dire Need lol.

  2. #2
    I agree that Champ self heal skills need a boost. But why so complicated?

    Fight on:
    Reduce duration, let it tick once per second, reduce cooldown.

    Bracing Attack:
    That one scales badly. Change it to a percentage based heal. Maybe 15-20% of your max morale. There also is a weapon legacy that increases Bracing Attack heal, this probably needs to be adjusted a bit.
    If percentage based heal is not an option, make it scale by your vitality. Just change it so it scales with something that increases with stat inflation.

    Dire Need:
    Someone suggested "when it removes 30% power, it should return 30% of your max morale". Personally, I'd just scrap the whole remove-percentage-of-power-multiply-and-add-to-morale mechanic. Why?
    - Like you said: It scales extremely badly. Less than 10% self heal? For a tank line only skill?
    - Power comsumption is through the roof. It is the most power hungry skill I know, and gives almost nothing in return.

    I'd favor another percentage based heal. Change the associated passive skill so it adds a few percent to the heal. Change the "dire need removes more power" legacy so it adds another few percent instead. Balance the values so they add up to 50-60% morale heal.
    If you compare to the following self heals:
    - RK Self Motivation: 30% morale every 15 seconds
    - Guardian Warrior's heart: Full heal every 2 minutes
    I'd say a 50-60% self heal every minute sounds fair for a tank line heal.

    Champ Rune:
    Rating scales bad. Needs to be changed to Incoming Healing percentage to be useful again.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorikon View Post
    Bracing Attack:
    That one scales badly. Change it to a percentage based heal. Maybe 15-20% of your max morale. There also is a weapon legacy that increases Bracing Attack heal, this probably needs to be adjusted a bit.
    If percentage based heal is not an option, make it scale by your vitality. Just change it so it scales with something that increases with stat inflation.

    If you compare to the following self heals:
    - RK Self Motivation: 30% morale every 15 seconds
    - Guardian Warrior's heart: Full heal every 2 minutes
    I'd say a 50-60% self heal every minute sounds fair for a tank line heal.

    Champ Rune:
    Rating scales bad. Needs to be changed to Incoming Healing percentage to be useful again.

    OK, maybe runes don't need to be tweaked, but the heals do.

    I was thinking that Dire Need should reciprocate Warrior's Heart for Guardians and have the same legacy.
    I was thinking either 2-3 morale per vitality for Bracing Attack
    Or make it like Self Motivation and remove Second Wind
    And my idea of transforming Fight On to look more like Hearten still stands.
    My idea to add a trait that mirrors Composure also still stands

    Also, our Blade of Courage trait is a laughing stock.
    Blade of Courage does not trigger nearly enough to keep anyone alive.
    And Killing Spree.... unless you can kill at ease, it won't benefit you that much either.

  4. #4
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    i agree!
    champ self heals need some attention since long ago!
    lotr enthousiast since 1996, 12 years lotro player, lifetimer, Loyal member of the Spartans Kinship, now in Evernight imigrants from Eldar

  5. #5
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    It is not only the heals that need attention we also need to be more independent when it comes to debuf mitigation's of the target when we are at berserker line and also a buff to our dps output of at least a 15% more.
    Arandour Champion Rank 12-Nerien Hunter Rank 11-Runendir RK Rank 7
    Narzul Lore Master-Ruarin Guardian-Gorgeous Minstrel
    Borzol Reaver Rank 12-Mauhnakh BA Rank 9-Varcolac Stalker Rank 9
    Sumnor Spider Rank 8-Orcapo Defiler Rank 8.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Pewpewmidget
    I was thinking that Dire Need should reciprocate Warrior's Heart for Guardians and have the same legacy.
    Agreed. My "50% morale heal" paragraph is my idea for the reworked Dire Need.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pewpewmidget
    I was thinking either 2-3 morale per vitality for Bracing Attack [...]
    Need to check numbers, but scaling by vitality sounds fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pewpewmidget
    And my idea of transforming Fight On to look more like Hearten still stands.
    My idea to add a trait that mirrors Composure also still stands
    Well, I don't play a beorn. Don't know how this change would play out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pewpewmidget
    Also, our Blade of Courage trait is a laughing stock.
    Blade of Courage does not trigger nearly enough to keep anyone alive.
    That's where I disagree. Random self heals shouldn't keep you alive. We had this situation with the red Guard before the rework. Killing anything on landscape took ages, but you were practically unkillable because you were constantly healed by your attacks, and got more heals the more mobs you fought. If you pair this with a champ's AoE damage, it becomes too overpowered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pewpewmidget
    And Killing Spree.... unless you can kill at ease, it won't benefit you that much either.
    Killing Spree is for landscape fun. Trait yellow, then take red line skills down to Killing Spree. Becomes a bit overpowered then (see my concerns about buffing Blade of Courage).

    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour
    It is not only the heals that need attention we also need to be more independent when it comes to debuf mitigation's of the target when we are at berserker line and also a buff to our dps output of at least a 15% more.
    Agreed, a bit more ST damage and something like the Rend debuff in red line would be nice.

  7. #7
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    Fight on should heal once 30% with a colldown of 2-3 minutes. A hot as a panic is really awful.
    But 3% nearly all the time up ist to much.

    And baracing attack should become percentage. base 5% incraeseable with the legacy..

    This much to the heals for surv.

    Additionally champs (all melee) should get 1 tac mit/vita too as do all range.

    This would increase the state of champs a lot. And would be mostly enough that they get their place in pugs.

    PErhaps a light dmgincrease of 2-3%. Then they would be fine.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorikon View Post
    Killing Spree is for landscape fun. Trait yellow, then take red line skills down to Killing Spree. [....

    My champion is currently yellow line but I only have 87 trait points. Missing 2 from Old Anorien and 4 from class deeds.
    I cannot figure out the class deeds really so I might just buy the class deed tome for those 4 points then start Old Anorien when I am done with Vales of the Anduin on my hunter.
    Then I plan on leveling my guardian and minstrel up again....

    Oh, and I don't notice Blades of Courage nearly enough to notice a difference as I still get killed if I am not careful.
    My champion is not my primary focus for gearing atm, but he does have about 7 essence slotted gear waiting to be worked on.
    Hands down the most fun I had between the two was with my champion and killing 3-5 at a time with his amazing Area of Effect skills.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor
    Fight on should heal once 30% with a colldown of 2-3 minutes. A hot as a panic is really awful.
    But 3% nearly all the time up ist to much.
    Maybe a mix of instant heal and HoT would hit the sweet spot? E.g. 20% morale at once, followed by a short HoT (2% each 5 seconds).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor
    And baracing attack should become percentage. base 5% incraeseable with the legacy.
    I think 5% isn't enough. I'm running around with 120k morale, so 5% would be a 6k heal - this is even less than it does now. When I leveled up my champ years ago (before Helm's Deep), it healed a quite noticeable amount of morale, maybe 15-20%, even without legacy. I'd love to see it doing this at lvl 120. Because of that, I'd say give it a base heal of 15%, the legacy could add up to 25% to this when maxxed. So we get an okayish heal without legacy and a good one with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor
    Additionally champs (all melee) should get 1 tac mit/vita too as do all range.
    Agreed. It is a pain to get TactMit to reasonable levels. Hunters get 1 TactMit /Vita, so should we.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    Fight on should heal once 30% with a colldown of 2-3 minutes. A hot as a panic is really awful.
    But 3% nearly all the time up ist to much.

    And baracing attack should become percentage. base 5% incraeseable with the legacy..

    This much to the heals for surv.

    Additionally champs (all melee) should get 1 tac mit/vita too as do all range.

    This would increase the state of champs a lot. And would be mostly enough that they get their place in pugs.

    PErhaps a light dmgincrease of 2-3%. Then they would be fine.


    I agree that we should get Tactical Mitigation per vitality point, and we also should get Critical Rating per might point since hunters get it with agility.
    Casters also should get Critical Rating per will point so they don't have to go around with agility boosting jewelry just because it adds more benefits than will.

    No, 5% base for Bracing Attack would be considered a nerf. I still want to see it become like self-motivation and heal 30% morale and 20% power or something useful.

    I still say that we should turn Bracing Attack into either Press Onward or Self Motivation, Dire Need into Warrior's Heart then turning Fight On into Hearten with a trait similar to Composure.

    For those who don't know, Hearten heals morale every second for 8 seconds then when you get high enough level, you can start putting points into Composure.
    Composure heals 2% morale every second for 8 seconds and you can put 5 into the trait to have it heal for 5% morale every second for 8 seconds.
    Both have a 12 second cooldown and you can automatically crit with Ferocious Roar and all of the ticks will be crits.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pewpewmidget View Post
    I agree that we should get Tactical Mitigation per vitality point, and we also should get Critical Rating per might point since hunters get it with agility.
    Casters also should get Critical Rating per will point so they don't have to go around with agility boosting jewelry just because it adds more benefits than will.

    No, 5% base for Bracing Attack would be considered a nerf. I still want to see it become like self-motivation and heal 30% morale and 20% power or something useful.

    I still say that we should turn Bracing Attack into either Press Onward or Self Motivation, Dire Need into Warrior's Heart then turning Fight On into Hearten with a trait similar to Composure.

    For those who don't know, Hearten heals morale every second for 8 seconds then when you get high enough level, you can start putting points into Composure.
    Composure heals 2% morale every second for 8 seconds and you can put 5 into the trait to have it heal for 5% morale every second for 8 seconds.
    Both have a 12 second cooldown and you can automatically crit with Ferocious Roar and all of the ticks will be crits.
    For that caster get an additional point of tac mit per will.
    Might should get a factor three too per might but not crit this is agility a Third mastery per might would be good

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    For that caster get an additional point of tac mit per will.
    Might should get a factor three too per might but not crit this is agility a Third mastery per might would be good

    I agree.
    Might should add 3 Physical Mastery and 2 Tactical Mastery for the heavy classes that still use tactical skills.
    3 Physical Mitigation and 2 Tactical Mitigation as well as Block, Parry and Evade rating.

    Hunters, Burglars and Wardens benefit from Agility being the only main stat that adds Critical Rating.
    Make Might and Will do the same for their respective classes, or just scrap the main stat crits and make Vitality and Fate the only crit stats.

    Casters have to slot Agility jewelry because it is that much better.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pewpewmidget View Post
    I agree.
    Might should add 3 Physical Mastery and 2 Tactical Mastery for the heavy classes that still use tactical skills.
    3 Physical Mitigation and 2 Tactical Mitigation as well as Block, Parry and Evade rating.

    Hunters, Burglars and Wardens benefit from Agility being the only main stat that adds Critical Rating.
    Make Might and Will do the same for their respective classes, or just scrap the main stat crits and make Vitality and Fate the only crit stats.

    Casters have to slot Agility jewelry because it is that much better.
    This would work too.
    will, agi and might: 2 phy and 2 tac mas
    vita: 1 tac mit +1 resi + current morale facctors (they´re balanced to the sources of inc dmg) for each class
    fate: 2.5 crit and 1 tac mit + 1 resi
    might: 5 block
    agi: 5 parry
    will: 5 evade

    morale/power reg can stay how it is.

    With this the mainstats would be balanced between the different mainstats.

    Other gear is weared cause you don´t miss stats from the mainstats and the offstats are so much better for your job. best exsample are tanks wearing 5 pieces of will cause this stuff got so much tac mit as secondary stas that you don´t miss the slot in case of the rings and it get worst by the might gear with has bpe as secondaries which nobody needs.
    I´m really glad that we´ve got the raidarmours which are pure slot items. but even there you switch between the armour classes cause the bonuses are better as the gear. n(helm and shoulders you don´t lost armour)

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    might: 5 block
    agi: 5 parry
    will: 5 evade


    This once again makes might useless for Champins. Kudos on singling us out lol.

    Give us 3 points to each BPE for might and agility. There are some-called Wardens who need Block too, remember?
    Caster's don't really need BPE but I agree on giving them something.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pewpewmidget View Post
    This once again makes might useless for Champins. Kudos on singling us out lol.

    Give us 3 points to each BPE for might and agility. There are some-called Wardens who need Block too, remember?
    Caster's don't really need BPE but I agree on giving them something.
    Champs doesn't need to parry or evade either. If they must they can block too.
    But this stats would be fair and equal for all classes.
    But two of each mastery and 3 of each avoidance in the three mainstats would work too for equal "free" stats.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    Champs doesn't need to parry or evade either. If they must they can block too.
    But this stats would be fair and equal for all classes.
    But two of each mastery and 3 of each avoidance in the three mainstats would work too for equal "free" stats.

    I agree on the offensive stats and mitigation but everyone at the line of battle needs BPE. What world are you living in?
    The devs did a good job with giving us BPE after Fervour stance made us unable to block, parry or evade.

    Casters only need BPE IF their tank, 2nd tank and DPS classes are incompetent.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pewpewmidget View Post
    I agree on the offensive stats and mitigation but everyone at the line of battle needs BPE. What world are you living in?
    The devs did a good job with giving us BPE after Fervour stance made us unable to block, parry or evade.

    Casters only need BPE IF their tank, 2nd tank and DPS classes are incompetent.
    It's helpful sure vs the avoidable 360 aoes, but it's not a win or loose stat.
    More important are the mits especially tac mit in which melees suck.

  18. #18
    If you guys want to balance classes then take a look at champions.
    Our heals are the WORST out of every playable class.

    The idea to make Fight On more like Hearten, Dire Need more like Warrior's Heart and Bracing Attack more like Self-motivation or Press Onward would go a long way to fixing this issue.
    Maybe add a 3rd attack to Blade-storm to make that skill more relevant?
    Maybe make Wild Attack an Area of Effect skill while in yellow line?
    Both of these moves make total sense to me since we saw Swift Strike get the Area of Effect treatment.

    Raging Blade and Fury of Blades see significantly more uses because they hit 3 times.
    Cutting the cooldown of Fury of Blades and Horn of Gondor might be a good idea as well since there seems to be a period of time where there is nothing to use until they are on their timers.
    I don't know about you guys but having to resort to red line for Savage Strikes, Ferocious Strikes or even using Feral Strikes just because there's nothing else to use doesn't seem right.
    Wild Attack remaining a single target in yellow line also is a headscratcher.

    The foundation is there and then the bricks are here, now we all are just waiting for the assembly line.

 

 

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