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  1. #1
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    Serious question to SSG

    This is not another thread about balance or lack of attention. My question is : Why SSG still require active sub for players on freepside? I can understand you guys not want/can't spent time and resources on pvp. But why not save this part of game by make it free (or buyable for LP per char as for creeps). Make guardian class free as creeps got reavers (botch pretty useless in current balance/setup). You dont want to make new pvp armour for freep? Fine just make it free and not charge people for something you not touched for a long time now. I'm sure it would put some live to etten on dead servers and put pressure on creepside to get motivation some people lost seeing 2 craids camping 10 freeps on GV stairs. I'm sure SSG not earn too much on that side of the game anyway as most freeps left in etten are lifers (can't imagine to pay for it).

  2. #2
    You can say the same thing about the entire business model. Its been what 8 years? and the only free zones are still Ered Luin, The Shire, Bree-Land and Lone-Lands. A majority of the store is still character bound. ViP benefits haven't changed except with the addition of Legendary Servers. If they maintained their F2P model then maybe they would be in a better place financially, but its just another reason for the games decline.

    As for making PvMP free, I don't really have an opinion lol. Im ViP so id like for them to replace it with something else, but I would be fine either way.

  3. #3
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    I agree pvp should be free it its a low resource area that has a high population or as mentioned buy with lp perma vip access

  4. #4
    cuz money is still money. look at the business model we have. The company's goal is to suck us dry mercilessy, pvmp is no exception.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by wretchesandkings View Post
    cuz money is still money. look at the business model we have. The company's goal is to suck us dry mercilessy, pvmp is no exception.

    I agree. Hopefully the new lotr mmo that is in development will have a more dedicated pvp team. No idea how that will impact this games contract, if at all, but I'd imagine that whatever is left of this games playerbase will be largely moving over to the modern mmo when it launches.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by wretchesandkings View Post
    cuz money is still money. look at the business model we have. The company's goal is to suck us dry mercilessy, pvmp is no exception.
    You mean the business model where its extremely easy to grind points in game and get access to the entire game without paying a cent? I get players don't like the lootboxes or LI grind but saying SSG wants to suck us dry when you can play the entire game without paying a cent is crazy. If anything Lotro as been very easy on wallets with its lenient business model.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet_Underground View Post
    I agree. Hopefully the new lotr mmo that is in development will have a more dedicated pvp team. No idea how that will impact this games contract, if at all, but I'd imagine that whatever is left of this games playerbase will be largely moving over to the modern mmo when it launches.
    Christopher Tolkien recently resigned as head of the estate and he was very strict about keeping all the book licenses in house. For years the only works people had access to was The Hobbit and Trilogy through Saul Zaentz and ME Enterprises. Once Christopher stepped down, Amazon was able to get the license for a 2nd Age TV show for a cool $250 million. Basically what I'm saying is that now that Christopher is gone, the Tolkien Estate may be a bit more lenient on things such as PvP, but it all depends.

    As for the new Lotro MMO, I expect that both games will be allowed to run side by side. The new MMO is still years away and Lotro will continue as long as the fans keep it running. Also we know next to nothing on the new MMO, other than a few red flags (to me.) I can see reasons that people will jump ship for the new MMO, and I can reasons why the new MMO will flop. Either way I don't see Lotro being shut down just because they share a license.

    Honestly Lotro isn't really a good PvP IP for several reasons, so I wouldn't be surprised if the new Lotro MMO didn't have PvP at all. Remember Lotro wasn't going to have PvP until the Estate allowed them to make PvMP. Like I said, we know nothing about the new MMO so its hard to determine what will happen.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteWolf21x View Post
    Honestly Lotro isn't really a good PvP IP for several reasons,
    Long protracted, story driven war with opposing factions, posturing and sparring. Attack and counter attack riddled with deceptions and misdirection. A huge world with dozens of flashpoints spanning years. Story created characters with plenty of development. Sounds actually quite viable for PvP.

    LotRO might even be better suited for PvP than the standard 3 faction PvP games.
    Università degli Studi di Roma "La Sapienza" Sapienza University of Rome

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapienze View Post
    Long protracted, story driven war with opposing factions, posturing and sparring. Attack and counter attack riddled with deceptions and misdirection. A huge world with dozens of flashpoints spanning years. Story created characters with plenty of development. Sounds actually quite viable for PvP.

    LotRO might even be better suited for PvP than the standard 3 faction PvP games.
    I actually think LOTRO could have more PVP, but if it did, it would have to stay away from the main world, like the Ettenmoors/Osgiliath. I used to hate it in WoW when I was trying to just explore and level characters and a bunch of high levels would rock up and start killing all the players and the NPCs. If you're not in the mood for it and don't have all day to play, it can really spoil the experience. You're right, the game does lend itself to PvP, I think, but the main game world doesn't.

    It would be nice as a compromise to have some new PvP maps, for example adventurers hunting out the remnants of Sauron's forces on the Plains of Gorgoroth after his destruction, or battling a knot of resistance in the depths of Moria. Whichever side is winning, could provide bonuses or penalties for folks playing in the regular areas. Updating old content wouldn't bring in many players, but new content just might.

    But... this probably isn't going to happen at this stage, unless there is a surge in monster play numbers. I imagine SSG probably has all the stats and the active non-PvPers probably vastly outweigh those who still regularly freep/creep.
    “...and he lived happily ever after, to the end of his days”

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteWolf21x View Post
    You mean the business model where its extremely easy to grind points in game and get access to the entire game without paying a cent? I get players don't like the lootboxes or LI grind but saying SSG wants to suck us dry when you can play the entire game without paying a cent is crazy. If anything Lotro as been very easy on wallets with its lenient business model.



    Christopher Tolkien recently resigned as head of the estate and he was very strict about keeping all the book licenses in house. For years the only works people had access to was The Hobbit and Trilogy through Saul Zaentz and ME Enterprises. Once Christopher stepped down, Amazon was able to get the license for a 2nd Age TV show for a cool $250 million. Basically what I'm saying is that now that Christopher is gone, the Tolkien Estate may be a bit more lenient on things such as PvP, but it all depends.

    As for the new Lotro MMO, I expect that both games will be allowed to run side by side. The new MMO is still years away and Lotro will continue as long as the fans keep it running. Also we know next to nothing on the new MMO, other than a few red flags (to me.) I can see reasons that people will jump ship for the new MMO, and I can reasons why the new MMO will flop. Either way I don't see Lotro being shut down just because they share a license.

    Honestly Lotro isn't really a good PvP IP for several reasons, so I wouldn't be surprised if the new Lotro MMO didn't have PvP at all. Remember Lotro wasn't going to have PvP until the Estate allowed them to make PvMP. Like I said, we know nothing about the new MMO so its hard to determine what will happen.
    Genuinely curious, what are those reasons? Because, I see it as perfect pvp IP.

    Coincidentally, this game had the only pvp I've ever enjoyed. Weird.

  10. #10
    Thanks for the 1v1 last night, Team Milt....good fight!
    Casinoari - Rank 15 RK
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nouri View Post
    Thanks for the 1v1 last night, Team Milt....good fight!

    I felt dirty using the tendon shred at the end but you were kicking my ###.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRabbitfoot View Post
    Genuinely curious, what are those reasons? Because, I see it as perfect pvp IP.

    Coincidentally, this game had the only pvp I've ever enjoyed. Weird.
    Quote Originally Posted by sapienze View Post
    Long protracted, story driven war with opposing factions, posturing and sparring. Attack and counter attack riddled with deceptions and misdirection. A huge world with dozens of flashpoints spanning years. Story created characters with plenty of development. Sounds actually quite viable for PvP.

    LotRO might even be better suited for PvP than the standard 3 faction PvP games.
    1: Orcs are woefully incompetent. They have very little skill in combat and as a group are prone to infighting. The only time orcs have done anything significant is when Morgoth/Sauron were active enough to force them into service. And even then they were still rather useless on their own, often relying on Morgoth/Sauron to provide the means to do their tasks.

    This is the reason why orc armies are generally in the tens of thousand. They need to outnumber Freeps significantly since 1 Freep can handle 1 Creep with ease. And even then, Creep armies usually needed a boost such as the explosives at Helms Deep or the Battering Ram Grond at Minas Tirith. Without those, the Creeps get decimated outside the walls.
    Heck the reason Morgoth even created Dragons was because his massive orc armies would get slaughtered over and over by the elves.

    If we were following the lore, 1 Freep should be able to handle 10 Creeps. But that doesn't equate to good gameplay. So we can bend the lore a bit to allow for better balance.

    2: The story is already finished. Yes there a plenty of warfronts and battles but we already know the victor. Its tough to have PvP in Osgiliath when you know that Creeps eventually take over the city. You cant do any major battles in pvp because it would be the same outcome over and over. And once Sauron is defeated the Creeps go back to waring amongst themselves, maybe causing trouble every couple of year, but never be a major threat again.

    Also, a lot of that posturing, maneuvering, attacking/counter attacking and overall waring over the ages is mainly Morgoth/Sauron/Witch King/Saruman. The orcs are rarely a threat without their master. If Saruman doesn't corrupt Théoden, he probably doesn't take the Fords of Isen. If Sauron doesn't slowly dismantle Gondor/Arnor over the course of thousands of years, the two nations are still in a strong place to contest him. Go back to the second age and Numenor. If Sauron doesn't convince Ar-Pharazon to sail to the Undying Lands which causes Eru to round the World and sink Numenor, than Numenor is still matching Sauron in strength.

    Sure your War-Leader could lead a raid against a small farming town, or ambush a caravan. But your War-Leader isn't going to raise an army and attack Minas Tirith. Not without Sauron or Morgoth leading the way. A majority of the major movements and wars were caused by major character that we don't play as.

    Again, we have to bend the lore to allow for gameplay.

    3: Another reason is more of a game issue and that is Content. Content is probably the most important part of video games in general and the reason you cant do full Creep characters is because of Content.

    In WoW you have Horde vs Alliance. But you also have 3rd party groups like The Burning Legion, Old Gods and Deathwing. Because of this, Blizzard can make 1 raid that both factions can play.

    Same thing for ESO, you have 3 factions for pvp. But you also have the Daedric Lords. So again, the devs can make 1 raid that all 3 factions can play.

    Lotro has no 3rd party. The Freep and Creeps are the only two factions in the game. So if you were to try and make two separate factions then content would either have to be split up, or you would need to have twice the dev team to create enough content for players to do. Neither choice is a good one.



    Now I'm not saying PvP can't work for a Lotr mmo, its just the IP isn't really designed to support PvP. It doesn't have the 3rd party "villians" to help save on content. The factions aren't equivalent in power level across the board, with Freeps having stronger foot soldiers while creeps have more powerful leaders. The story is also finished, so you cant write in never ending battles to support pvp. And the battles that do take place already have a clear winner so its difficult to make battlefields when one side is automatically the loser.

    You can bend the lore of course, but if you bend the lore too much you risk making the game "less Lotr/Tolkien", which is why a lot of people play Lotro in the first place.

    I will admit Lotro's PvMP is a pretty good attempt at PvP though. But if you tried to make a PvP focused Lotr game/mmo I think you will fail.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteWolf21x View Post
    You mean the business model where its extremely easy to grind points in game and get access to the entire game without paying a cent? I get players don't like the lootboxes or LI grind but saying SSG wants to suck us dry when you can play the entire game without paying a cent is crazy. If anything Lotro as been very easy on wallets with its lenient business model.



    Christopher Tolkien recently resigned as head of the estate and he was very strict about keeping all the book licenses in house. For years the only works people had access to was The Hobbit and Trilogy through Saul Zaentz and ME Enterprises. Once Christopher stepped down, Amazon was able to get the license for a 2nd Age TV show for a cool $250 million. Basically what I'm saying is that now that Christopher is gone, the Tolkien Estate may be a bit more lenient on things such as PvP, but it all depends.

    As for the new Lotro MMO, I expect that both games will be allowed to run side by side. The new MMO is still years away and Lotro will continue as long as the fans keep it running. Also we know next to nothing on the new MMO, other than a few red flags (to me.) I can see reasons that people will jump ship for the new MMO, and I can reasons why the new MMO will flop. Either way I don't see Lotro being shut down just because they share a license.

    Honestly Lotro isn't really a good PvP IP for several reasons, so I wouldn't be surprised if the new Lotro MMO didn't have PvP at all. Remember Lotro wasn't going to have PvP until the Estate allowed them to make PvMP. Like I said, we know nothing about the new MMO so its hard to determine what will happen.
    No one in their sane mind would want to grind out the game without a single cents as you put it. I did it for years only because I couldn’t pay for it when I was younger.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by wretchesandkings View Post
    No one in their sane mind would want to grind out the game without a single cents as you put it. I did it for years only because I couldn’t pay for it when I was younger.
    Oh I agree that grinding LP for everything is insane. But the business model allows for players to play via "lowest cost possible." So I'm sure there are a fair share of those who pay as little as they can.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteWolf21x View Post
    1: Orcs are woefully incompetent. They have very little skill in combat and as a group are prone to infighting. The only time orcs have done anything significant is when Morgoth/Sauron were active enough to force them into service. And even then they were still rather useless on their own, often relying on Morgoth/Sauron to provide the means to do their tasks.

    This is the reason why orc armies are generally in the tens of thousand. They need to outnumber Freeps significantly since 1 Freep can handle 1 Creep with ease. And even then, Creep armies usually needed a boost such as the explosives at Helms Deep or the Battering Ram Grond at Minas Tirith. Without those, the Creeps get decimated outside the walls.
    Heck the reason Morgoth even created Dragons was because his massive orc armies would get slaughtered over and over by the elves.

    If we were following the lore, 1 Freep should be able to handle 10 Creeps. But that doesn't equate to good gameplay. So we can bend the lore a bit to allow for better balance.

    2: The story is already finished. Yes there a plenty of warfronts and battles but we already know the victor. Its tough to have PvP in Osgiliath when you know that Creeps eventually take over the city. You cant do any major battles in pvp because it would be the same outcome over and over. And once Sauron is defeated the Creeps go back to waring amongst themselves, maybe causing trouble every couple of year, but never be a major threat again.

    Also, a lot of that posturing, maneuvering, attacking/counter attacking and overall waring over the ages is mainly Morgoth/Sauron/Witch King/Saruman. The orcs are rarely a threat without their master. If Saruman doesn't corrupt Théoden, he probably doesn't take the Fords of Isen. If Sauron doesn't slowly dismantle Gondor/Arnor over the course of thousands of years, the two nations are still in a strong place to contest him. Go back to the second age and Numenor. If Sauron doesn't convince Ar-Pharazon to sail to the Undying Lands which causes Eru to round the World and sink Numenor, than Numenor is still matching Sauron in strength.

    Sure your War-Leader could lead a raid against a small farming town, or ambush a caravan. But your War-Leader isn't going to raise an army and attack Minas Tirith. Not without Sauron or Morgoth leading the way. A majority of the major movements and wars were caused by major character that we don't play as.

    Again, we have to bend the lore to allow for gameplay.

    3: Another reason is more of a game issue and that is Content. Content is probably the most important part of video games in general and the reason you cant do full Creep characters is because of Content.

    In WoW you have Horde vs Alliance. But you also have 3rd party groups like The Burning Legion, Old Gods and Deathwing. Because of this, Blizzard can make 1 raid that both factions can play.

    Same thing for ESO, you have 3 factions for pvp. But you also have the Daedric Lords. So again, the devs can make 1 raid that all 3 factions can play.

    Lotro has no 3rd party. The Freep and Creeps are the only two factions in the game. So if you were to try and make two separate factions then content would either have to be split up, or you would need to have twice the dev team to create enough content for players to do. Neither choice is a good one.



    Now I'm not saying PvP can't work for a Lotr mmo, its just the IP isn't really designed to support PvP. It doesn't have the 3rd party "villians" to help save on content. The factions aren't equivalent in power level across the board, with Freeps having stronger foot soldiers while creeps have more powerful leaders. The story is also finished, so you cant write in never ending battles to support pvp. And the battles that do take place already have a clear winner so its difficult to make battlefields when one side is automatically the loser.

    You can bend the lore of course, but if you bend the lore too much you risk making the game "less Lotr/Tolkien", which is why a lot of people play Lotro in the first place.

    I will admit Lotro's PvMP is a pretty good attempt at PvP though. But if you tried to make a PvP focused Lotr game/mmo I think you will fail.
    1. Yeah but we're not everyday bad guys in the 'moors. Just like freepside (unless you think the average citizen of ME is running around with Glamdring), we're the outliers. And there were plenty of outliers in the books. E.g., the orc chieftain that fought off both Aragorn and Boromir to pin Frodo to the wall with a spear in Moria.

    2. The pvmp zone can be staged at any point in the story they choose. In fact, the Ettenmoors to this day is still staged at the beginning of the War of the Ring. Sauron has not yet revealed himself and the main enemy is the Witch King.

    3. Not really a lore argument, which was what we were discussing. There could have been countless factions had they chosen to build that into the game but obviously that ship has sailed (pun intended). Either way, really doesn't affect how good pvp could or couldn't be from a lore perspective.

    To address your final comment: not looking for a pvp based game, just saying the lore definitely supports it. But for an example of how pvp could be expanded into the game at large, look to Warhammer. Create open pvp zones in the main world that you can choose to enter, or not.

  16. #16
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    I deleted a long, passionate post. All I want to say, is I miss the Moors how it was before it started getting "improved". It had it's place in the game, as a fun alternative to running instances at end game. It pulled me in, and was the best experience I've ever had in any MMORPG in my 20 years of gaming. It doesn't need more maps and new things, what it needs, is for all the improvements and changes to go away. ALL of them.

    Slinks away and pouts in a corner
    Landroval: Daizee (retired) playful warg of the 'moors / Tilla the Lore master / Daiska the Guardian
    Anor: Bresa the Champion



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by MorenaT View Post
    I deleted a long, passionate post. All I want to say, is I miss the Moors how it was before it started getting "improved". It had it's place in the game, as a fun alternative to running instances at end game. It pulled me in, and was the best experience I've ever had in any MMORPG in my 20 years of gaming. It doesn't need more maps and new things, what it needs, is for all the improvements and changes to go away. ALL of them.

    Slinks away and pouts in a corner

    And I'll just say again, they had lightning in a bottle with PvMP and just pissed it away. Hard to believe really. It was by far the best pvp I've ever tried.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRabbitfoot View Post
    And I'll just say again, they had lightning in a bottle with PvMP and just pissed it away. Hard to believe really. It was by far the best pvp I've ever tried.
    Worst part is that it's about to get worse. The last few months have had something semi resembling balance. And freepside just got an insane buff. If I had to guess I'd say people with max virtues and new relics and essences will get about a 15-20% boost to their stats. Seeing as geared freeps were already overperforming I expect a u22 level of silliness will follow soon :/

    (Retired... Maybe un-retired?) Arkenstone: Immanitas R12 Burg, Gorbat R12 Reaver, Sueahpro R11 Mini, Falsified R9 RK, -The Blood Hand
    Crickhollow: Orphluk R9 Warg, Orphelun-1 R8 RK. -The Blood Hand.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteWolf21x View Post
    1: Orcs are woefully incompetent. They have very little skill in combat and as a group are prone to infighting. The only time orcs have done anything significant is when Morgoth/Sauron were active enough to force them into service. And even then they were still rather useless on their own, often relying on Morgoth/Sauron to provide the means to do their tasks.

    This is the reason why orc armies are generally in the tens of thousand. They need to outnumber Freeps significantly since 1 Freep can handle 1 Creep with ease. And even then, Creep armies usually needed a boost such as the explosives at Helms Deep or the Battering Ram Grond at Minas Tirith. Without those, the Creeps get decimated outside the walls.
    Heck the reason Morgoth even created Dragons was because his massive orc armies would get slaughtered over and over by the elves.

    If we were following the lore, 1 Freep should be able to handle 10 Creeps. But that doesn't equate to good gameplay. So we can bend the lore a bit to allow for better balance.

    2: The story is already finished. Yes there a plenty of warfronts and battles but we already know the victor. Its tough to have PvP in Osgiliath when you know that Creeps eventually take over the city. You cant do any major battles in pvp because it would be the same outcome over and over. And once Sauron is defeated the Creeps go back to waring amongst themselves, maybe causing trouble every couple of year, but never be a major threat again.

    Also, a lot of that posturing, maneuvering, attacking/counter attacking and overall waring over the ages is mainly Morgoth/Sauron/Witch King/Saruman. The orcs are rarely a threat without their master. If Saruman doesn't corrupt Théoden, he probably doesn't take the Fords of Isen. If Sauron doesn't slowly dismantle Gondor/Arnor over the course of thousands of years, the two nations are still in a strong place to contest him. Go back to the second age and Numenor. If Sauron doesn't convince Ar-Pharazon to sail to the Undying Lands which causes Eru to round the World and sink Numenor, than Numenor is still matching Sauron in strength.

    Sure your War-Leader could lead a raid against a small farming town, or ambush a caravan. But your War-Leader isn't going to raise an army and attack Minas Tirith. Not without Sauron or Morgoth leading the way. A majority of the major movements and wars were caused by major character that we don't play as.

    Again, we have to bend the lore to allow for gameplay.

    3: Another reason is more of a game issue and that is Content. Content is probably the most important part of video games in general and the reason you cant do full Creep characters is because of Content.

    In WoW you have Horde vs Alliance. But you also have 3rd party groups like The Burning Legion, Old Gods and Deathwing. Because of this, Blizzard can make 1 raid that both factions can play.

    Same thing for ESO, you have 3 factions for pvp. But you also have the Daedric Lords. So again, the devs can make 1 raid that all 3 factions can play.

    Lotro has no 3rd party. The Freep and Creeps are the only two factions in the game. So if you were to try and make two separate factions then content would either have to be split up, or you would need to have twice the dev team to create enough content for players to do. Neither choice is a good one.



    Now I'm not saying PvP can't work for a Lotr mmo, its just the IP isn't really designed to support PvP. It doesn't have the 3rd party "villians" to help save on content. The factions aren't equivalent in power level across the board, with Freeps having stronger foot soldiers while creeps have more powerful leaders. The story is also finished, so you cant write in never ending battles to support pvp. And the battles that do take place already have a clear winner so its difficult to make battlefields when one side is automatically the loser.

    You can bend the lore of course, but if you bend the lore too much you risk making the game "less Lotr/Tolkien", which is why a lot of people play Lotro in the first place.

    I will admit Lotro's PvMP is a pretty good attempt at PvP though. But if you tried to make a PvP focused Lotr game/mmo I think you will fail.


    3rd point is BS and i can think of atleast 2 figures who could set instances for both freeps and creeps toghether for massive raid: smaug, balrog...

    And im sure there are more lore figures and third parties from the lore who werent covered by the events of the ring...
    Creepside have one of the richest contents in any mmo.

 

 

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