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  1. #1

    Need advice from fellow champs AND non-champs

    My main toon has always been a champ, but I have some other level 120 toons also (guard, burg, hunter) that I play solo and have just never really developed them or invested in them (traits, leg items, etc.) Anyway, I've worked hard to develop my champ and get him ready for raids, but I'm finding that I get rejected from all anvil raids (except the ones for side bosses only) simply because of my class. They ask for dps...but then clarify that they need hunters. To clarify, I don't have any hard feelings...they have to do what they feel is best for the raid...but my question is this: Should I expect this to continue? In other words, if I want to participate in raids, do I need to jump ship and switch to focusing on one of my other toons as my main?
    Any input would be appreciated. Thanks!

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by ocheagle View Post
    My main toon has always been a champ, but I have some other level 120 toons also (guard, burg, hunter) that I play solo and have just never really developed them or invested in them (traits, leg items, etc.) Anyway, I've worked hard to develop my champ and get him ready for raids, but I'm finding that I get rejected from all anvil raids (except the ones for side bosses only) simply because of my class. They ask for dps...but then clarify that they need hunters. To clarify, I don't have any hard feelings...they have to do what they feel is best for the raid...but my question is this: Should I expect this to continue? In other words, if I want to participate in raids, do I need to jump ship and switch to focusing on one of my other toons as my main?
    Any input would be appreciated. Thanks!
    Like you, I have more or less played champ (beside my tank), and I'm having no troubles joining different raids. But I do see your point, that many raid leaders want ranged dps for some reason. My personal experience is that many hunters get knocked out faster than a champ and when that start happening, the raid get wiped. Hunters are easy to play.. point and click, but a champ has to be more versatile in approaches towards the different bosses and mobs, making champs harder to be effective, which can explain that there are many "inexperienced" champs out there, making some raid leaders believing champs are useless, compared to hunters.

    Switch between red/yellow line, adjusted/different gear and several LI weapons adjusted for the different task and know how the raids works, will make you a very deadly dps'er that can survive being in the thick of it

    Just my two cents and there will be people with another opinion than mine

  3. #3
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    problem of champs they do around 10% less dps, have less defense through this tac mit from vita for rangeclasses. and most emchanics are melee unfriendly, they´ve to pay more attentention to some skills which you can ignore if you stay range or you need a faster reaction time as a melee.
    No idea if this will changed with the next raid.
    What I really like to see and which would be a big improvment is tac mit from vita for all classes this will be a big step for balancing the classes and a light dmg bosst for champs.
    Or a big dmg boost that averrage champs will be able to play too. atm the rota to be only 10% under is hard to know when which attck with wich weapon(dual/twohander).
    But for anvil choose another class you gear. At least in pugs champs don´t stand a chance.

  4. #4
    Aranaan, thanks for the input. I certainly understand the importance of making sure that your leggie's match your spec and gear. Right now, my gear is basically as good as possible (without having done a full anvil raid yet). I'm glad you've had good luck getting into raids. Maybe the key joining a guild/alliance large enough to do their own raids, lol.

    Mukor, thanks for your input also. And I'm afraid you might be right, ...if I want to do the anvil raid (or participate in future raids consistently), I may just have to bite the bullet and choose another class.

    Follow up question...Instead of my champ, do you think I would have better luck getting into raids with a burglar? (I could play my hunter, but if I HAVE to switch, I'd prefer my burg, so just wondering.)

  5. #5
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    More or less Standard build is:
    1 guard
    2 cappies 1red + 1yellow
    1 beo heal
    1 min heal
    1 lm support
    1 Burg support
    2 hunters
    3 rks

    Numbers of hunters and rk could be change a bit maybe two other healers but this would be the easiest way.

    So you must choose 1 spot or two spots for your class. But there are less burgs. This you should Check on your server how much from which class are played and then guess how mu h can/want run anvil.
    In t3 a burg is needed for sure while the dps Spot can do someone else.

  6. #6
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    You see, this is the mentality where everyone wants to just hit the raid as quickly and easily as possible. And why? To get the best gear, to do what? The raid is the hardest content, so you don’t need better gear for any other reason.

    If champ is what, 10% less DPS then surely it is still viable??? And if it really makes a huge difference then what about those who want a challenge? I’m sure a group with a bit of skill could manage with a champion or two.

    After all, would any captain in his right mind say “Gimli - nah he’s rubbish we don’t need his help. Send him away, we’ll get someone else”?
    “...and he lived happily ever after, to the end of his days”

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheArtilleryman View Post
    You see, this is the mentality where everyone wants to just hit the raid as quickly and easily as possible. And why? To get the best gear, to do what? The raid is the hardest content, so you don’t need better gear for any other reason.

    If champ is what, 10% less DPS then surely it is still viable??? And if it really makes a huge difference then what about those who want a challenge? I’m sure a group with a bit of skill could manage with a champion or two.

    After all, would any captain in his right mind say “Gimli - nah he’s rubbish we don’t need his help. Send him away, we’ll get someone else”?
    A real good champ is 10% under an average rk or hunter.
    Champs have a much complexer rotation just to be 10% under.
    And 10% are a lot. This is more or less one minute battleduration which could be to much in a not so good raid, looking at the enragetimer.
    Furthermore it´s not only the missing dmg. Champs get a much more dmg less mitigations and more sources as hunters and rks. and they´re melee which means a lot more mechanics they must beware of or they could wipe the raid which rangclasses don´t have at least they got a higher reactiontime.
    For sure you can do it with a champ but I don´t see a pug to do it.

  8. #8
    Mukor, that's helpful to know. Thanks!

    Artillaryman, I agree with you on both points. However, I am not one of those that just rushes to the raid ASAP; I wait until my gear and stats are up to par so that I can contribute and not be "carried."
    Also, unfortunately, many raid leaders seem to disagree wtih you about champs. In fact the other day, I watched as two of them (while discussing classes for raids) just bashed champs in open chat, lol. No one spoke up against it either, so that's what really got me thinking that maybe I should think about changing classes.

    I haven't fully decided though. It's hard to think about doing all you have to do to fully develop a toon in this game AGAIN. Thanks very much for the input though, greatly appreciated!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocheagle View Post
    Mukor, that's helpful to know. Thanks!

    Artillaryman, I agree with you on both points. However, I am not one of those that just rushes to the raid ASAP; I wait until my gear and stats are up to par so that I can contribute and not be "carried."
    Also, unfortunately, many raid leaders seem to disagree wtih you about champs. In fact the other day, I watched as two of them (while discussing classes for raids) just bashed champs in open chat, lol. No one spoke up against it either, so that's what really got me thinking that maybe I should think about changing classes.

    I haven't fully decided though. It's hard to think about doing all you have to do to fully develop a toon in this game AGAIN. Thanks very much for the input though, greatly appreciated!
    Don’t worry, I didn’t think you were. I was bemoaning the raid leaders who won’t take you because you’re playing a champ. The way I see it, if you know what you’re doing you should be able to complete the instance with a champ. I say stick with it if that’s the class you like to play and find a nice bunch willing to let you join. There are plenty of kins who would - I’ve just joined the naked adventurers - for some it’s all about the challenge and the fun
    “...and he lived happily ever after, to the end of his days”

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    A real good champ is 10% under an average rk or hunter.
    Champs have a much complexer rotation just to be 10% under.
    And 10% are a lot. This is more or less one minute battleduration which could be to much in a not so good raid, looking at the enragetimer.
    Furthermore it´s not only the missing dmg. Champs get a much more dmg less mitigations and more sources as hunters and rks. and they´re melee which means a lot more mechanics they must beware of or they could wipe the raid which rangclasses don´t have at least they got a higher reactiontime.
    For sure you can do it with a champ but I don´t see a pug to do it.
    Champs are at least 10% better in terms of dpS then rk's.
    Only hunters and burgs clearly outparse champs in most cases.
    Also i was most oft the time the or one of the last dd's standing in wipe situations.
    Why? Because you have something like 54% physmitigations without ans essences + more moral, compared to both rk's and hunters .
    If you want to contact me, pls don't write me a Private Message on the Forum, the chance that I read them is low.
    The best way is via Discord:
    Gertes#5389

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    Champs are at least 10% better in terms of dpS then rk's.
    Only hunters and burgs clearly outparse champs in most cases.
    Also i was most oft the time the or one of the last dd's standing in wipe situations.
    Why? Because you have something like 54% physmitigations without ans essences + more moral, compared to both rk's and hunters .
    This are He big hits which are physical. The permanent tactical champs take a lot more.
    And I want to see the champ whcih does more dps St as a rk if the raid isnt build for him.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    This are He big hits which are physical. The permanent tactical champs take a lot more.
    And I want to see the champ whcih does more dps St as a rk if the raid isnt build for him.
    I never was forced to equip tactical mitigatin in the anvil (besides our progress time).
    I just can talk from my experiance, but i was in every single ID before our rk,'s.
    Id3 first Phase for example, is every static and without that much rng, so its good to test stuff.
    Just before the ice spawns i was between 195-230k DPS in most trys, out rk's toped at 180-190.
    If you want to contact me, pls don't write me a Private Message on the Forum, the chance that I read them is low.
    The best way is via Discord:
    Gertes#5389

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    I never was forced to equip tactical mitigatin in the anvil (besides our progress time).
    I just can talk from my experiance, but i was in every single ID before our rk,'s.
    Id3 first Phase for example, is every static and without that much rng, so its good to test stuff.
    Just before the ice spawns i was between 195-230k DPS in most trys, out rk's toped at 180-190.
    Ok this counts maybe for you and the other top champs
    But now compare your rota witrh weaponswitching with the rks one.
    now compare you with an average champ. after that th rks dps with an average rk.
    Your dps would be halfed the rks max reduced by 50k.
    So you can say maybe we just have to less (real) good champs but even this could be reduced to the differences of difficulty for skill to the classes
    And even the you sayd it, this is a static figth, go away from the static the rks dps stay and yours? I would guess you loose 10-20% which brings you below the rk.

    Nevertheless a pug leader won´t give champs a chance except he knows what they can do if they´re top champs. But then how big is the chance to get a top champ compared to an average or even worse.

    So maybe for Orcheagle if you want to stay champ search for a fix raid and show them what you can do or build your own raidgroup.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    Ok this counts maybe for you and the other top champs
    But now compare your rota witrh weaponswitching with the rks one.
    now compare you with an average champ. after that th rks dps with an average rk.
    Your dps would be halfed the rks max reduced by 50k.
    So you can say maybe we just have to less (real) good champs but even this could be reduced to the differences of difficulty for skill to the classes
    And even the you sayd it, this is a static figth, go away from the static the rks dps stay and yours? I would guess you loose 10-20% which brings you below the rk.

    Nevertheless a pug leader won´t give champs a chance except he knows what they can do if they´re top champs. But then how big is the chance to get a top champ compared to an average or even worse.

    So maybe for Orcheagle if you want to stay champ search for a fix raid and show them what you can do or build your own raidgroup.

    I really appreciate the input here from everyone! My situation is this...I'm in a great kin that I'm sure would have no problem letting me join a raid. However, we don't seem to be big enough to put raids together, nor do we seem to initiate them much. And I certainly am not a raid-leader type. So, I have to rely on pug's, which (as you correctly stated) don't like to give champs a chance. To be honest, I'm grimacing at the idea of developing one of my other toons, but if I want to be welcome in raids, I think I at least need to entertain the idea. If I do, it will be either my hunter or my burg. If I choose bug, I will definitely need some pointers on what is expected from bugs in raids. Think I'll drop that question in the burg forum.

    Thanks so much everyone for the responses!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Aranaan View Post
    Like you, I have more or less played champ (beside my tank), and I'm having no troubles joining different raids. But I do see your point, that many raid leaders want ranged dps for some reason. My personal experience is that many hunters get knocked out faster than a champ and when that start happening, the raid get wiped. Hunters are easy to play.. point and click, but a champ has to be more versatile in approaches towards the different bosses and mobs, making champs harder to be effective, which can explain that there are many "inexperienced" champs out there, making some raid leaders believing champs are useless, compared to hunters.

    Switch between red/yellow line, adjusted/different gear and several LI weapons adjusted for the different task and know how the raids works, will make you a very deadly dps'er that can survive being in the thick of it

    Just my two cents and there will be people with another opinion than mine
    I'd love some insight on champ skill rotations to acheive better DPS. Running some other T2 content, I can barely break 100k DPS in fights in yellow line, and red line doesn't seem any better.

    I've been able to run Anvil T1 as a champ without any problem, and some other T2 content with a less-than-optimized group and we still did alright.

    I have LI setups for both red and yellow, but leveling those to max, especially now, is a huge pain and time investment that I don't have.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    More or less Standard build is:
    1 guard
    2 cappies 1red + 1yellow
    1 beo heal
    1 min heal
    1 lm support
    1 Burg support
    2 hunters
    3 rks

    Numbers of hunters and rk could be change a bit maybe two other healers but this would be the easiest way.

    So you must choose 1 spot or two spots for your class. But there are less burgs. This you should Check on your server how much from which class are played and then guess how mu h can/want run anvil.
    In t3 a burg is needed for sure while the dps Spot can do someone else.
    ????

    I've seen plenty of raids with champs and wardens

    champ and wardens can reach 350k/370k dps AOE, why would u take 3 rks lol

    2/2 rk/hunt is what I see as standard tbh

    if the raid leader takes a 3th RK over a champ or warden, idek anymore lol
    WhiteGoliath

 

 

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