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  1. #1
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    Updated Bullroarer Update 24 Release Notes

    Hello everyone! We're working to get a new preview out (probably next week) of Update 24, but since work was done this week on Release Notes, it makes sense to share that now so you have more updated information on the Virtue work being done. Since these notes are not yet final, please remember that anything can be added, changed, or removed prior to live:


    Update 24 Release Notes


    Here are the Release Notes for Update 24: The Vale of Anduin.


    Of Special Note


    Vales of Anduin


    Update 24 brings you to the Vales of Anduin, where the Great River courses down through Wilderland to the shores of Lothlórien. Help the Woodmen defend their lands from the goblins and wargs of the Misty Mountains. Delve into the region’s fabled past, when it was home to Dwarves, Elves, and the ancestors of the hobbits and Rohirrim. Seek the aid of the Beornings and Great Eagles – as well as a certain Brown Wizard of some repute. But beware: foul things still roam the woods and marshes, some drawn by the legacy of the One Ring, which lay long hidden near the Anduin’s banks. Update 24 is Free to VIP players and Lifetime Subscribers and available in the LOTRO Store.
    Black Book of Mordor


    The storyline of the Black Book of Mordor continues with two more chapters! Pushed to the limit by the attack of Karazgar, the Weeping Warrior, and fearing his promised return, the dwarves of Skarháld attempt to fortify their position in the Grey Mountains. If you have completed 'Chapter 8.7: The First Promise,' you can pick up Chapter 9 by speaking with Durin on the upper level of Skarháld. This storyline will guide you to the Vales of Anduin once your business with the dwarves has been resolved.


    News and Notes:


    Classes

    • The healing percentage for Vigilant Roar Legendary Item bonuses have been corrected.
    • Burglar:
      • Gamble Chance now provides a chance that any gamble applied will upgrade itself by a tier after application.
      • Even the Odds has had its buffs extended from 15 to 20 seconds, and had its progressions updated.
      • Clever Retort's Self-Adulation bonus has been increased from 20 to 25%, and it no longer incorrectly states that it provides a pulse bonus to Mischievous Glee.

    • Guardian's T5 Tenderize bonus has been corrected so that it is larger than T4.
    • Guardian's Fighter of Shadow no longer incorrectly grants an area of effect flash of light with the base spec.
    • The Minstrel's Mastery bonuses from the Trait Strength of Helm Hammerhand has been improved.
    • Melee range skills now have a base range of 3.5m up from 2.5m.


    Items

    • Most items in the Ironfold and Grey Mountains can now be used while mounted.
    • Removed an unintended on-removal effect from the Hunter Essence of Freedom.


    LOTRO Store

    • Up to 200 Epic Battle Promotion points can be obtained via the Promotion Points +10 offer.


    NPCs

    • A confirmation dialog has been added to the Vendor's Sell All button.


    PvMP

    • Monster play melee skill range has been increased to 3.5 meters.


    Quests and Adventure Areas

    • The old river woman in The Crone's Ferry is now taller.
    • A speed buff has been given to players during the quest Heritage Restored to make it more forgiving a run.
    • Rhus Cornchuthur in Enedwaith is giving out quests again.
    • Ivy Tunnelly is once again a barkeep in the Bird and Baby Inn after being fired as a Mote Craft Trader for failing to have any actual things to trade.
    • Albra Lowbanks is no longer invisible.
    • Unfriendly Eyes in Ost Forod now advances correctly for a Fellowship that carries the chest together.
    • The Battle Under the Trees Session Play for the Court of Lothlórien Allegiance has been updated:
      • Additional directions have been added to the quest to improve the flow of the instance.
      • Monster spawns have been thinned and moved closer to cut down on travel time.
      • Galadriel's animations have been adjusted.
      • Mirkwood Archers now lead the way up the hill during the second part of the instance.

    • The pace of Frodo's Burden has been greatly improved. Our Ringbearer still discusses the same subjects, but he doesn't take so long to get to the point.
    • If you have already completed all of his adventures, George at Sandson's Farm might just have something new for those feeling a bit peckish.
    • Bree, Michel Delving, Hobbiton, Duillond, Celondim, and Thorin's Hall all now have slow and swift travel routes to their nearest housing neighbourhoods.


    Virtues

    • The Virtue system has been updated. The system now advances through Virtue Experience, allowing you to select the Virtue that will benefit from your Deed completions. Open the Traits Panel with (J) to navigate to the redesigned Virtues tab to examine your Virtues, select an earning Virtue, and slot any Virtues you would like active.
      • All Deeds that currently grant a specific Virtue will instead grant Virtue XP that can be assigned by players to a Virtue of their choice.
      • A new Virtue, Wit, has been added to the game.
      • The stats are in the vast majority of cases going to be better than they were previously.
      • Players who earned Virtue ranks that could not be previously expressed will gain credit when Update 24 is released.
      • Virtue benefits will be capped based on character level, including the non-Slotted Virtues' passive benefits.
      • There are numerous ways to gain Virtue XP, including Deeds, end-game repeatable quests, Festival Quests, and Featured Challenges.
        • Virtues have been unpublished from the LOTRO Store, and are no longer available to purchase. All currently-held Virtue Tomes will convert into items that grant Virtue XP.
        • For items that contained Virtues prior to the release of Update 24:
          • Virtue Tomes found in old rare loot boxes will be replaced with an item that grants 1,000 Virtue XP.
          • The Gift of the Valar (Level 50) will give five items that grant 20,000 Virtue XP, and 10 items that give 10,000 Virtue XP.
          • The Blessing of the Valar (Level 95) will give 20 items that grant 20,000 Virtue XP.
          • The Aria of the Valar (Level 105) will give five items that give 70,000 Virtue XP, and 15 items that give 20,000 Virtue XP.
          • The Virtue XP items from the Valars are acquired via a quest after consuming the Valar item.


    UI

    • Screenshots now save with a new timestamp format of "YYYY-mm-dd_HHMMSS".
    • Pressing the Escape Key cancels targeted item usage.
    • The Allegiance Tracker is now scaleable.
    • The scroll bar on the Raid Lock panel has been fixed.
    • Fellowship Tradeable gear no longer loses allowed trade target information on Logout.
    • Fixed a bug where quest font size changes would revert back to default when quest update events were triggered.
    • Fixed an issue where zooming with the mouse scroll wheel would stop working when interacting with Lua plugins.
    • Added Lua event triggering of EffectRemoved and EffectCleared for selected targets.
    • Added binding to Lua for various Action definitions.
    • The Quest Grouping panel has been rearranged to have the Quest selection at the very top.
    • The Instance Finder panel has been expanded with a new Instance grouping section. The new section works similarly to Social Panel Quest Grouping in that you can create or join up to 5 entries that are persisted on your character. The new instance grouping section replaces the functionality of the Simple and Advanced tabs of the Instance Finder panel, and those tabs have been removed. Clicking "Show All" will show up to 100 entries. Clicking "My Instances" will show only the instances that you have either joined or created. Members are automatically removed from an entry when entering the specific encounter space for the first time.
    • Shift+F is no longer mapped to the Instance Finder.
    • Updated the Instance Finder tutorial, and added a tutorial hint button to the Instance Finder panel.
    • The player command /lfp has been changed to /lfq (Looking for Quest Grouping).
    • The Item Socket Replacement confirmation dialog now displays in the correct order.


    Miscellaneous

    • The LOTRO game client can now be optionally run in 64-bit, which can improve game performance. By default, players will continue to run the 32-bit client unless they change the option in the launcher. This selection can be changed again if desired. A separate set of client preferences (userpreferences.ini) for the 64 bit client will be created to allow players to have different graphics settings for the different clients if desired.
    • The sky in the landscape during Character Selection has been fixed.
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  2. #2
    There are numerous ways to gain Virtue XP, including Deeds, end-game repeatable quests, Festival Quests, and Featured Challenges.
    ---
    Do you mean level 120 endgame repeatable quests (and presumably new endgame repeatable quests as new areas appear and the level rises)?

    Because given the massive gulf between the VXP cost to max out our virtues (which has to be a possibility you've entertained, given the alternative is to put new, and even less currently advanced characters at a massive disadvantage compared to today's endgame characters) and what we can get by doing every possible existing virtue deed, as discussed in other threads on this forum, I really think that this effort should be spread out over the entire course of our levelling and not something we can only get to at cap [Note specifically that said gulf is present in some proportion at all levels because many deeds will not yet be available at any given level.]. So what I was really hoping for, and am asking you to consider since this is still a work in progress, is that VXP be available for all repeatable quests that were ever endgame quests, such as Hytbold dailies/resource dungeons, the Fangorn resource dungeons/seed quests, heck even that half hour town defense quest in Angmar. These would obviously give less VXP than the 120 quests, I would propose in proportion to the virtue cost at the levels the quests are set for.

    I'm sure other people can and will provide specific circumstances, but I feel safe saying if the only repeatable VXP sources are current cap repeatables, FIs (which are effectively endgamer only activities), and festivals, you're going to hear a lot of disappointment from the parts of the community that are not at level cap.

  3. #3
    What will our current virtue levels goto when U24 goes live? IF I have loyalty at 30 currently will that get me close to 55/60 when U24 hits?
    Is there a multiplier like current level 20 virtue X 1.7 = 34 at U24?

  4. #4
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    Maybe it should wait for the detailed virtue post but I had to mention the failing maths:

    Looks like it's time to reroll my main. There are only about 570+ virtue deeds in the current game. 570,000 VXP if you were. I might have missed a few but we are in a ball park.

    The reroll can valar to 50 and get 200,000 free VXP.
    Then valar to 95 and get another 400,000 vxp
    Then valar to 105 get anther 650,000 vxp
    For a total of 1250000 leaving him 500,000 short of capping all 21 at rank 60. And with a bunch of old deeds to knock out...
    Hell just the 105 would gain more virtue ranks than 12 years of playing a completionist would get you.

    So anyone who actually levels, you know actually plays the game can never reach the heights of this valared char, just the 570,000 plus these endgame and festival scraps. Because you are not selling virtue VXP any other way now?

    Total of 16,685 LP for 1,250 virtue deed completions sounds like the deal of the century. 8,000 vxp would have cost 2500 LP if the store would let you buy 8 ranks of a virtue 1.25 mill would be 390625LP at that old price.

    Absolute Nuts


    Edit: Not implying anyone is crazy or anything, I'm using "Nuts" from poker terminology - An unbeatable hand.
    Last edited by Ballie; May 24 2019 at 08:28 PM.
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  5. #5
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    So the quickest way to get to Michel Delving from Hobbiton now will be Fast Horse to the housing area, then ride to MD from there?
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballie View Post
    Maybe it should wait for the detailed virtue post but I had to mention the failing maths:

    Looks like it's time to reroll my main. There are only about 570+ virtue deeds in the current game. 570,000 VXP if you were. I might have missed a few but we are in a ball park.

    The reroll can valar to 50 and get 200,000 free VXP.
    Then valar to 95 and get another 400,000 vxp
    Then valar to 105 get anther 650,000 vxp
    For a total of 1250000 leaving him 500,000 short of capping all 21 at rank 60. And with a bunch of old deeds to knock out...
    Hell just the 105 would gain more virtue ranks than 12 years of playing a completionist would get you.

    So anyone who actually levels, you know actually plays the game can never reach the heights of this valared char, just the 570,000 plus these endgame and festival scraps. Because you are not selling virtue VXP any other way now?

    Total of 16,685 LP for 1,250 virtue deed completions sounds like the deal of the century. 8,000 vxp would have cost 2500 LP if the store would let you buy 8 ranks of a virtue 1.25 mill would be 390625LP at that old price.

    Absolute Nuts


    Edit: Not implying anyone is crazy or anything, I'm using "Nuts" from poker terminology - An unbeatable hand.
    Are you sure what you can get all 1,250,000 on one character? Most likely it's just 1 reward from valar per character

  7. #7
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    1)What happens with 50+ weapons and other gear what req specific Virtue to equip? They still working in same they as they working before u24?
    2)What happens with race trait like Virtuous Elf (+1 Wisdom, Charity & Patience)? They working with new virtue system? You can get Wisdom 61 level with it, or just have Wisdom 60 cap?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmagor View Post
    Are you sure what you can get all 1,250,000 on one character? Most likely it's just 1 reward from valar per character
    Someone can copy over a low level char to BR and test out the possibilities. I am wondering if there'll be another technical problem and the next we see of it will be on live.


    I did watch the live stream later and it's good to see he's coming on with his minstrel's level as it seems I'm only just "ahead of parity" with him on my capped 120 mini.

    Around 1900 VXP to level the last few ranks to 60 makes the price of 21 maxed virtues nearer to the 2 million mark. The current game before any extra means are added has less than 600,000.

    The old deeds would have to earn 2000 VXP to have true parity with how our virtue ranks are being converted. But there will be endgame Dailies and Featured Instance Challenges but only festivals whilst you are levelling?

    The mention of one off deeds and a "meta meta" in the new area suggests it's better as it's earning 2000 VXP a time but dig a bit and it's only on par with what you could get out of older game zones before.

    There's no mention of reversing the virtue earning stinginess of the last few years, when it didn't matter at a 20 cap. Literally if you got to the 20 max and stopped it's time for regrets.

    It stinks for levelling up in the new system unless you valar up. It's a connivance to hide what a struggle newcomers will have to then be able to announce, down the road, due to heartfelt player feedback the advent of virtue bundles in the store.

    None of this affects me. I have the chars I play and I'll take the inflated ranks I'm given. Have no wish to bring another character to the endgame grind, it's all I can do right now to tread water and keep afloat.

    If I have no beta to play then I'll mostly be virtue deed grinding before the patch hits with these current intensions. Really is the time to hit the virtue deeds now. After the patch will be too late, when a tool to aid grouping up to knock out deeds will be in game, just too late. But it wouldn't, you arrive in the area to knock one out and join anyone there already and leave when you finish. Only Moria, CD, Uragarth and Barad Guillian has instance virtue deeds but you may not want to inherit a mostly empty CD off anyone.
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  9. #9
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    I'm 99% sure we've had this discussion before in a different thread, and Ballie, sorry, but your numbers are off - I worked it out quite elegantly.

    Now, I will adjust for what we learnt yesterday on the stream, which put the total Virtue XP required for a rank 60 virtue in the ballpark of around 85,000 up from 75,000 as we initially thought.

    If we take the high end number we are looking at 1,785,000 VXP total required.

    Now, FOR WHATEVER reason; working as intended or otherwise, it is unclear how the conversion rate between live virtues and the new virtue ranks. If we take the following example; I have Zeal at rank 34 (Or 34,000 VXP) on live server which translates to rank 58 (~73,000-76,000 VXP) under the new system. To me this equals a conversion rate of 2.25x - 2.5x current virtue rank (x1000). I will have to thoroughly compare during the next BR but that roughly seems where we are at.

    Suggesting that there is a massive boost for existing characters that have previously done the landscape deeds. Moving on we have been told there will be 16 new landscape deeds rewarding 2000 VXP and the meta deed rewarding 4000 VXP, reportedly enough to cap out your 5 slotted virtues to 60, provided you had kept up with virtue deeds previously. Great, no issue here from me.

    From my own maths I calculated a total of around 598 virtue deeds that exist in the game (up from your suggested 570) you have also eloquently left out all the deeds that add +2 virtue ranks rather than just the one, including the majority if not all final quest deeds from Eriador and Early Rhovanion as well multiple instance slayer deeds, Which takes the projected VXP up to around 625,000-650,000 VXP at a minimum from deeds alone. If my previous calculation was correct with all deed completions a player could expect to have around 1,406,250 - 1,462,500 VXP under the new system which, from what we have seen looks to be rather accurate. Missing around a total of 300,000-380,000 Virtue XP (if we subtract 85,000 for the new virtue - we're looking at around 220,000-295,000 virtue XP to cap all remaining virtues).

    300,000-380,000 VXP including capping the new virtue, sorry, but this doesn't seem all that ludicrous. In fact, I have no issue with this number. Furthermore, why should this system be something that people are instantly able to cap out? It gives people a long term goal of something to work towards, which, especially when this game has numerous periods of 'quietness' is not a bad thing.

    --

    You really like to jump on the store-bandwagon too don't you. They're removing virtue ranks from the store, I honestly don't see how you can not think this is a good thing? And anyone wanting to re-roll a new character entirely and spend, as you said, close to 16,000 LP to get that 1,200,000 VXP, please, feel free. Lol.

  10. #10
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    They're removing virtue ranks from the store, I honestly don't see how you can not think this is a good thing?
    Yeah, but are they removing virtue ranks from the store for good? The way I read it, it sounds like it’s a temporary thing, so people can’t quickly max out their virtues under the current system before the changeover. I reckon they’ll go back in the store after update 24, at a higher overall cost.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheArtilleryman View Post
    Yeah, but are they removing virtue ranks from the store for good? The way I read it, it sounds like it’s a temporary thing, so people can’t quickly max out their virtues under the current system before the changeover. I reckon they’ll go back in the store after update 24, at a higher overall cost.
    They'll likely add Virtue purchases of 2500 vxp and 5000 vxp for LOTRO Points.

  12. #12
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    My revision to the total took on board this "around" 1900 VXP to level from 55 to 60 as mentioned by CM on stream, and on to 65 at 2000 VXP per rank. (He seemed to be reading a prepared document not making it up.)

    Then 1900 is up from the 1500 cost we had used to calculate totals that's more by 4000 X 5 ranks = 20,000 VXP, add that onto the 75,000 to max we calculated it's 95,000 now.
    [EDIT: What the hell am I saying, too many late nights] It's 400 X 5 sorry an extra 2000 only D'Oh So 77,000 to max, yeah?

    Ignore the CM using the conversion you calculate as around 2.25 to 2.5 times, with "actually ahead of parity", that's some margin.

    With me going through deed logs the last day or so, I'm no completionist, I have a couple of characters with completed deeds and deeds yet to do (in the log) coming in on around 590 virtues from deeds available. These should include all metas connected with them. I shall be looking for those eight I'm missing.

    My calculations are made off my deed log's 33 virtue deeds to still do and the trait panel that adds up to 557 virtue ranks already achieved. There are no hidden virtues coming from anywhere else.

    And we both agree that having completed so many deeds we will be far ahead of the game compared to someone coming to it with few virtue deeds completed.

    That's not a problem for us, it's the new guy coming late to the game and on the Legendary servers. They will get 598, your figure, 1000 VXP from the old sources with an extra grind during festivals and only dailies and FIs at endgame. We are being paid off handsomely to not rock the boat. It maybe that enough VXP earning is put in for them over the next year but they can never make up ground on a toon that valared at 94.


    To be fair to them all existing virtue deeds would need to reward 2250 to 2500 VXP to match what you and are being given, again your figures mine might be different. The idea that these new one off 2000 VXP deeds are generous highlights how ungenerous the it will be for new alts and players.

    We already have systems in place to deter latecomers to the endgame this only makes the issue worse.
    Last edited by Ballie; May 25 2019 at 01:01 PM.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheArtilleryman View Post
    Yeah, but are they removing virtue ranks from the store for good? The way I read it, it sounds like it’s a temporary thing, so people can’t quickly max out their virtues under the current system before the changeover. I reckon they’ll go back in the store after update 24, at a higher overall cost.
    I have not bought virtues in the store myself. The four and eight rank bundles have a warning that they can't be used if your particular virtue is 16 or 12 already. What would be the outcome if you buy a load you can't use because your rank is too high then when U24 hits you have a bunch to apply to Wit?


    Am I unwittingly suggesting this and I'm actually being played by a more devious mind at SSG to promote sales before the patch?
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballie View Post
    I have not bought virtues in the store myself. The four and eight rank bundles have a warning that they can't be used if your particular virtue is 16 or 12 already. What would be the outcome if you buy a load you can't use because your rank is too high then when U24 hits you have a bunch to apply to Wit?


    Am I unwittingly suggesting this and I'm actually being played by a more devious mind at SSG to promote sales before the patch?
    Turns into +1000 virtue xp items?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballie View Post
    My revision to the total took on board this "around" 1900 VXP to level from 55 to 60 as mentioned by CM on stream, and on to 65 at 2000 VXP per rank. (He seemed to be reading a prepared document not making it up.)

    Then 1900 is up from the 1500 cost we had used to calculate totals that's more by 4000 X 5 ranks = 20,000 VXP, add that onto the 75,000 to max we calculated it's 95,000 now.
    [EDIT: What the hell am I saying, too many late nights] It's 400 X 5 sorry an extra 2000 only D'Oh So 77,000 to max, yeah?
    This is why I rounded up to around 85,000 as I imagine we wouldn't go from 1500 VXP for ranks 50-55 straight to 1900 VXP for ranks 56-60.. Hence why I went for the higher value of around 85,000.

    And

    Rank 34 Zeal = 34,000 VXP x 2.25 = 76,500 would put that at around rank 55-57 or so which is roughly what we're seeing on BR.

  16. #16
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    Changing the subject - Any chance lower level essences and essence gear can be rescaled with this update? By lower level I mean level 100 or so, really - I remarked in another thread recently that the essences are rubbish compared to the stats on non-essence gear at this level. Would be nice to customise things, but there’s not much point when your level 95 gear is better than the level 100 equivalent. Just a thought...
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    ...

    300,000-380,000 VXP including capping the new virtue, sorry, but this doesn't seem all that ludicrous. In fact, I have no issue with this number. Furthermore, why should this system be something that people are instantly able to cap out? It gives people a long term goal of something to work towards, which, especially when this game has numerous periods of 'quietness' is not a bad thing.

    --
    As Ballie has pointed out, you seem to only be interested in what this system looks like for players that already have all the available virtues on live today and are thus getting the maximum conversion bonus (whatever that calculation is), which is fine if that's what you're working with, but it should be noted that this is the rosiest of all scenarios. Even then, we don't know that your estimate is something that can be reasonably achieved, by the standards players have been voicing. Folks are complaining about, what is it, 3 to 4 months to get the components to max out a pair of LIs? We'll find out on the next Bullroarer release, but do you expect to see us getting a deed's worth of VXP for one day's worth of dailies (if, as I fear, VXP for endgame dailies occurs only at level 120, and only in the new area)? Even if they take the approach of one (new area) deed = 2000 VXP, you're talking about 6 months of grinding out those quests *every day*. Which gets you capped just in time for the next expansion (which could be 10 xp levels or another 5 virtue ranks across the board at who knows what cost).

    So how might you expect the community to react if this goes live and it takes six months to get virtues done *in the rosiest case*?

    How do they react if this six months of activities, and the grind for LI components (which is primarily scrolls), are mutually exclusive time sinks?

    We're having this discussion based on the assumption that we're expected to max out our virtues at some point. Maybe we're not. I'd be okay with this being some galactic grind going on in the background of our gameplay (and it sounds like you would be, too), but that intent needs to be communicated by the devs before the wider playerbase sees these numbers.

    I responded to the new release notes earlier in the thread by suggesting VXP should be given by all repeatable (where repetition is time restricted to a day or more) quests that were ever endgame content, but I would go even further than that, particularly if we're going to see virtue coast bloat to 2000 VXP/rank after 60. I'd like to see dribs and drabs of VXP all over the place. Why not give 200 or 250 for basic slayer deeds? Why not give 100 VXP to any other deed that doesn't otherwise have a virtue reward? Why not give 5 or 10 VXP per task (maybe varied by region)? Why not have a bonus of some sort that makes every non gray mob kill worth a VXP (like a bonus weekend sort of deal)?

  18. #18
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    I'm making the case for the completionist to show how those who are not are screwed.

    Going forward they can add ways to get VXP, as you suggest any level appropriate daily should reward some VXP, restrict them to only those around that level so that all through the levelling up process you have access to some daily you earn on.

    We can have many changes going forward but we get in a big mess if we have to say add rewards to old deeds to make it fairer to the newcomers. Then how would that get distributed out in one big lump going to your earning virtue, then the slotted and finally alphabetically and poor old zeal is the last to get some love...


    Going live with the contrived system we get from the notes and testing will be hard to recover when the LSs folk see how it is and cancel on mass.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moln View Post
    So how might you expect the community to react if this goes live and it takes six months to get virtues done *in the rosiest case*?

    How do they react if this six months of activities, and the grind for LI components (which is primarily scrolls), are mutually exclusive time sinks?

    We're having this discussion based on the assumption that we're expected to max out our virtues at some point. Maybe we're not. I'd be okay with this being some galactic grind going on in the background of our gameplay (and it sounds like you would be, too), but that intent needs to be communicated by the devs before the wider playerbase sees these numbers.
    You are again, as in other threads, missing the point.

    This new virtue system isn't designed for people to be maxed right away, nor is it meant for players to be maxed in 6months - it is meant to be a long term achievable goal, something to work towards over a long period of time.

    I fail to see this as an issue. I will have 1 of 11 characters that I play that will be anywhere close to max virtue rank under the new system, and I intend to play and work towards the other 10 over time... So no, I'm not only looking at this from a completionists perspective.

    --

    And on your last point about the grind going on in the background - I very much think this is the case here, but why does that need to be explicitly communicated? We can easily do the math and work it out for ourselves - it is plainly evident we won't be maxed instantly, nor within a few weeks or months. The last time virtues were relevant were perhaps level 65? Since then they've not been needed nor required, under the current level cap they still won't be needed because everyone is maxed on everything anyway that is relevant to their role and class (Yes, I'm just stating end-game players/raiders here the min/maxers). So the virtues will be great, I can remove a few essences and slot even more morale. Yay.
    Last edited by Hephburz-2; May 25 2019 at 07:43 PM.

  20. #20
    Ballie, I agree that this all has to be sorted out right now, because the design of the system is such that we're mostly stuck with it whatever goes live. There would have been much more flexibility if they had listened and gone with a pool of points to be spent like traits or pre-imbued LIs, but they didn't, so here we are.

    I don't know if you'd necessarily have to level restrict VXP from lower level (old endgame) quests. Keeping those proportional to costs of virtues of appropriate level, combined with the fact that there's only so much time in the day would set a natural limit on VXP from overlevelled content (and would not be theoretically inconsistent with the fact that we can do overlevelled deeds for VXP). If a modern endgame quest was giving 200 VXP (I don't think they'll be that much, but for sake of argument), then my suggestion is that half hour defense of Aughaire would award 120. all things being equal, you'd prefer to do maybe a 20 minute level 120 daily as it's clearly a better use of your time. I'm currently working on Fangorn resource dungeons to get rep with the Ents, which are also taking me about 20 minutes, but would presumably be faster if I one shot everything, but they're not going to be a lot faster (because I'm primarily doing them for rep, I'm also doing the sidequests), and probably not fast enough that the 140 is a better deal. I imagine folks would do a lot of EBs and MT dailies, just as they are now, and probably not much else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    You are again, as in other threads, missing the point.

    This new virtue system isn't designed for people to be maxed right away, nor is it meant for players to be maxed in 6months - it is meant to be a long term achievable goal, something to work towards over a long period of time.

    I fail to see this as an issue. I will have 1 of 11 characters that I played maxed on virtues and I intend to play and work towards the other 10 over time.
    It's awesome that you've figured that out, and my point was that it's mathematically implied that Virtues are something that a character is going to spend *years* on (which you might have observed if you had read the statement of mine that you quoted). If that is the devs' intent then it would be best for them to say so, but given Cordovan's response in the previous thread, I'm not at all sure it is.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moln View Post
    It's awesome that you've figured that out, and my point was that it's mathematically implied that Virtues are something that a character is going to spend *years* on (which you might have observed if you had read the statement of mine that you quoted). If that is the devs' intent then it would be best for them to say so, but given Cordovan's response in the previous thread, I'm not at all sure it is.
    Being patronising won't help your case. Again, I am not sure why you explicitly want the Devs to say - "Hello, here's a revamped version of an old outdated system, but, unfortunately it'll take you a few years to completely max out everything".. I'm not sure the purpose of this?

    To my recollection Cordovan explicitly said; If you had kept up with your deeding prior to this virtue release the grind will not be as long as some people are making it out to be. It is also likely that after completing the deeds in the new area that you will have maxed out your 5 SLOTTED virtues, he said nothing about the other 16.

    These two statements go hand-in-hand. Meaning, if you haven't kept up with your landscape virtue deeds, then no, you aren't going to be able to max them out very quickly. I fail to see the need for further clarification??

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Being patronising won't help your case. Again, I am not sure why you explicitly want the Devs to say - "Hello, here's a revamped version of an old outdated system, but, unfortunately it'll take you a few years to completely max out everything".. I'm not sure the purpose of this?

    To my recollection Cordovan explicitly said; If you had kept up with your deeding prior to this virtue release the grind will not be as long as some people are making it out to be. It is also likely that after completing the deeds in the new area that you will have maxed out your 5 SLOTTED virtues, he said nothing about the other 16.

    These two statements go hand-in-hand. Meaning, if you haven't kept up with your landscape virtue deeds, then no, you aren't going to be able to max them out very quickly. I fail to see the need for further clarification??
    I'm not being patronizing, I just want you to know I have as high an opinion of your argument as you do. I'm just not sure why you don't understand that I agree with you personally on the merits of long term character goals, but recognize many players won't see it that way.

    I want the Devs to explicitly say "We expect this system to require years of effort on a new player's part" in order to demonstrate that they understand the implications of the system they're handing us, and because it's going to be important to set expectations correctly for the vast majority of players who haven't been following this in detail. At least in world chat on Landroval, they have no idea what's coming. all folks seem to have gotten from the producer's letter and discussion thereof was that the revamp was going to give us a way to earn virtues other than going back to old areas to spam slayer deeds.

    Among those implications is the fact that going forward, if as appears to be the case progression of virtues is going to be slow, there is going to be a lasting virtue gap between the players who happen to have obsessively ground out every virtue related deed in the game at this point, those of us who are somewhere in progress on that front (I, for example, am just tying up west rohan on my ten characters, so I obviously haven't done any later deeds), and then completely new characters. This gap cannot be closed until after you completionists have maxed out, maybe six months from now, since those of us who are behind cannot get more VXP than you, and may well not be getting nearly as much as you per day (if, as I worry, the vxp awards are endgame repeatable quests only). I can live with that, but given the extensive discussion of the need for catch up mechanisms in an MMO that have come up regarding LIs, I suspect many won't. Particularly in this case where the advantage older characters will have is merely in being older (i.e. present for the new system conversion bonus), not having made more effort.

    I mean sometimes, it's important to have the discussion, just to think things through. I was initially supportive of the new system conversion bonus and gave the devs the benefit of the doubt for their motivations in applying it (and I still want to think they meant well), but at this point I think the community would be better off if we instead got whatever virtue progress our previously earned deeds warrant by direct vxp calculation, so that we're all on the same page.

  23. #23
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    I respect what you're saying, just, you're trying very hard to get too deep into the dynamics of MMOs in my opinion.

    Older players have and always will have an advantage over newer players, case and point. The longer you have played a certain game, the more likely you are to have various things completed, the more likely you are to have time-limited special items or titles. The more likely you are to have a horde of resources/currency/barter items etc. etc. whereas a new player will not.

    Yes, this of course puts any new player immediately at a disadvantage, but the same is true of any MMO you will play that has been out for several years, if you weren't there from the beginning or particularly early on - there will always be something you will be missing or something you are behind upon.

    Is it right? Maybe not, but just as with the upcoming changes to the ILI system, you need to reward people for years worth of effort, and the same is true here...

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    I respect what you're saying, just, you're trying very hard to get too deep into the dynamics of MMOs in my opinion.

    Older players have and always will have an advantage over newer players, case and point. The longer you have played a certain game, the more likely you are to have various things completed, the more likely you are to have time-limited special items or titles. The more likely you are to have a horde of resources/currency/barter items etc. etc. whereas a new player will not.

    Yes, this of course puts any new player immediately at a disadvantage, but the same is true of any MMO you will play that has been out for several years, if you weren't there from the beginning or particularly early on - there will always be something you will be missing or something you are behind upon.

    Is it right? Maybe not, but just as with the upcoming changes to the ILI system, you need to reward people for years worth of effort, and the same is true here...
    You are right. Older player who have already spent more time than newer player, will always have an advantage. Just like real life.
    What we see more and more from the younger generations, is that many will not invest the same amount of time older players have done, and demand quick and easy way for them self. Sadly that will not happen. Those players should leave such illusions behind and start putting some effort into building their toons, like the rest of the old guard. It isn't that hard and time demanding, or at least, I don't think so. I'm glad that Standing Stones are on the same page as me on this issue.

  25. #25
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    I gather that previous users of Valar items have gotten ranks of virtues in the package, so these new VXP packs would be only for Valar items used after U24?


    What would be the difference between a new character using a 105 valar item today and another on patch day? Would their virtue ranks have parity?


    I'm initially assuming the amounts of VXP have been arrived at to actually make this so. Just failing to consider how different a story it is for a character who makes it to 105 without the boost and the limit they have on earning VXP to that point.

    The packs of 5 and 15 gave me the hint, as it's not 5 and 16 to make the 21 virtues.

    I'd do the maths but have deeds to knock out...
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them under a spot light

 

 
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