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  1. #1
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    Lightbulb Massive PvMP Suggestion Thread

    Prologue

    Player Vs Monster Player has long been ignored in the Lord of the Rings Online. Whether it is due to lack of development staff, toxicity within the community towards development staff, perceived disinterest in PvMP, or one of many other reasons, it is a serious problem for the future of LotRO.
    We’ve gathered together many ideas here in this document, all of which are explained and evaluated upon. However, some may require additional work and were not fully completed because we are unsure whether or not players or the development team would want them implemented. We are more than happy to fully complete those ideas just as we have with the rest of the documented ideas should the development team decide they are worthwhile routes to pursue.

    Many of the ideas we gathered are from the forums; And even more are our own adaptations from other games, or simply creative ideas people on our team thought up as a whim and worked together to fully create and explain it into a truly magnificent future feature.

    We sincerely hope that the team of contributors and collaborators from many servers (both listed and unlisted) shows the development team that there are still many players who deeply care about PvMP and want it to be the best it can be: just like the rest of the game.

    Additionally, we included polling data, courtesy of “The Lord of the Rings Online Unofficial Discord Server”, which we believe shows an accurate sample group for members of the full Lord of the Rings Online community.
    In other words: we believe that the data shown as a result of the polls is an accurate representation of what all LotRO player answers would be. If you do not believe that the sample size is not big enough nor accurate, players are encouraged to join “The LOTRO Unofficial Discord Server” and participate in the polls and get their voices heard. (Channel #PvMP, click the pinned messages, there are 13 questions that are pinned in there, vote accordingly). Additionally if a player does not use or have discord, we are more than happy to provide a Google Forms link as we have on the LotRO Forums.

    We believe that polling players as we have is the most effective way of getting the community’s input without much of the extremely emotional and passionate (usually exhibited in toxicity or hate) that has commonly plagued the PvMP community when it comes to changing around the part of the game they love.

    Thank you LotRO Team and LotRO Community.

    The Content

    We'd also like to hear what the community thinks on top of what we already gathered.
    Hence you can find the documentation below. Feel free to react on it in the replies! We'd love to hear your opinion. Please keep it calm, and give constructive criticism so that we all can properly discuss these ideas!

    Document:
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

    If you can't access the document, please let me know in the replies and I'll find an alternative for you!
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  2. #2
    Unless I passed over it, I saw nothing about making Rank account wide. I never play creep side or any alts simply because it doesn't benefit my main. And Im also hesitant to switch mains because Id lose countless hours of Rank. (Rank is just one of many things in Lotro that should be account wide but isn't. SSG needs to get with the times.)


    Also on the subject of Rank. Each Rank should reward the player with a Title, Mount, Cosmetic Outfit, Character Portrait and maybe a pet.



    Edit: Also I've been putting together ideas for a Lotro 2.0. There is a section for PvMP which includes a lot of what is in the document, although not as detailed. Extra creep classes, rewards, new modes and the like. If anyone is interested you can read it here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...or-a-Lotro-2-0 Its still a work in progress but I would love for some feedback.
    Last edited by WhiteWolf21x; May 24 2019 at 01:58 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteWolf21x View Post
    Unless I passed over it, I saw nothing about making Rank account wide. I never play creep side or any alts simply because it doesn't benefit my main. And Im also hesitant to switch mains because Id lose countless hours of Rank. (Rank is just one of many things in Lotro that should be account wide but isn't. SSG needs to get with the times.)
    I see your point, but I feel like it might not be the right thing to do for the following reasons:

    1: Each character is a different character.

    It's entirely realistic to start over when you play as a servant of Sauron after you've played as Human for example.
    While I know it's a game, it's also important to note that many people would probably want to start over when they select a new character.

    2: Things might get boring fast.

    Just like using cheats or finishing a game entirely without or playing in Bullroarer solely to play, there won't be much else that would attract you to join back in-game if you've got the highest rank on every character.
    For example, if you'd have a Rank 15 character then what's the point of PvMP if you can't rank up anymore?

    3: It'll probably get technically uncomfortable.

    Since, as Rank 15, you'd get rewards, titles, and bonuses such as Battlefield Promotion it'd require heavy balancing across the board.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteWolf21x View Post
    Also on the subject of Rank. Each Rank should reward the player with a Title, Mount, Cosmetic Outfit, Character Portrait and maybe a pet.
    I do think this is interesting! Rewarding the player with something else rather than just Battlefield Promotion and an icon creates more satisfaction by the player meaning they're more likely to invest time on ranking up again.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteWolf21x View Post
    Edit: Also I've been putting together ideas for a Lotro 2.0. There is a section for PvMP which includes a lot of what is in the document, although not as detailed. Extra creep classes, rewards, new modes and the like. If anyone is interested you can read it here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...or-a-Lotro-2-0 Its still a work in progress but I would love for some feedback.
    I really like the thought behind this! Very impressive as well.
    I do want to say that creating an entire sequel on the game would be quite a challenge. I'm not sure, though, for I am no Lotro developer.

    Perhaps using a Google document instead to link to, like we have, might be more convenient!
    In your post you stated that you had a map to show but you couldn't find out how to upload an image, so Google documents or similar might help out a lot.

    Thank you for your time & effort!
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by SlopranoDark View Post
    I see your point, but I feel like it might not be the right thing to do for the following reasons:

    1: Each character is a different character.

    It's entirely realistic to start over when you play as a servant of Sauron after you've played as Human for example.
    While I know it's a game, it's also important to note that many people would probably want to start over when they select a new character.
    But each player is the same player. They already made rank 15 so why should they have to do it again?


    Quote Originally Posted by SlopranoDark View Post
    2: Things might get boring fast.

    Just like using cheats or finishing a game entirely without or playing in Bullroarer solely to play, there won't be much else that would attract you to join back in-game if you've got the highest rank on every character.
    For example, if you'd have a Rank 15 character then what's the point of PvMP if you can't rank up anymore?
    There are numerous ways to alleviate boredom. You can make it take longer to reach each rank, you can add ranks, you can update PvMP vendors with collectibles every so often, you can offer some PvE items like scrolls, crystals, essences etc, you can have leaderboards. Some players also like PvMP and the main reason they play MMO's is for the PvP aspect.

    Quote Originally Posted by SlopranoDark View Post
    3: It'll probably get technically uncomfortable.

    Since, as Rank 15, you'd get rewards, titles, and bonuses such as Battlefield Promotion it'd require heavy balancing across the board.
    I would probably remove any combat buffs from Rank but I get your point.

    You can make an argument for both sides. Im just going by what I see in other MMO's I've play and that is an active shift towards Account-Wide. Mounts/Pets/Collectibles are account wide, Achievements are account wide, gear is account wide, account wide crafting bag. Some games even have character progression be account wide with grinds, levels, specific items, reputations. Lotro still seems to be stuck in this character bound era while everyone else pushes for account wide.

    If anything I would at least like to see the collectibles be account wide, if not Rank.


    Quote Originally Posted by SlopranoDark View Post
    I do think this is interesting! Rewarding the player with something else rather than just Battlefield Promotion and an icon creates more satisfaction by the player meaning they're more likely to invest time on ranking up again.
    While Im more likely to Rank up once if I received these rewards per Rank. I would be less likely to do it again since the grind is so long, regardless of the rewards, which is where account-wide comes in.


    Quote Originally Posted by SlopranoDark View Post
    I do want to say that creating an entire sequel on the game would be quite a challenge. I'm not sure, though, for I am no Lotro developer.

    Perhaps using a Google document instead to link to, like we have, might be more convenient!
    In your post you stated that you had a map to show but you couldn't find out how to upload an image, so Google documents or similar might help out a lot.

    Thank you for your time & effort!
    If you have the money and the manpower, it would be just like any other game. It would be 2-3 years of dev time, maybe a little more depending. It would probably be easier since a lot stuff, like classes, is going to be recycled.

    I wanted to post everything to the forums so everyone has access to it, although I am a forum noob haha. Im also not much of fan of google docs. Is what it is.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteWolf21x View Post
    But each player is the same player. They already made rank 15 so why should they have to do it again?




    There are numerous ways to alleviate boredom. You can make it take longer to reach each rank, you can add ranks, you can update PvMP vendors with collectibles every so often, you can offer some PvE items like scrolls, crystals, essences etc, you can have leaderboards. Some players also like PvMP and the main reason they play MMO's is for the PvP aspect.



    I would probably remove any combat buffs from Rank but I get your point.

    You can make an argument for both sides. Im just going by what I see in other MMO's I've play and that is an active shift towards Account-Wide. Mounts/Pets/Collectibles are account wide, Achievements are account wide, gear is account wide, account wide crafting bag. Some games even have character progression be account wide with grinds, levels, specific items, reputations. Lotro still seems to be stuck in this character bound era while everyone else pushes for account wide.

    If anything I would at least like to see the collectibles be account wide, if not Rank.




    While Im more likely to Rank up once if I received these rewards per Rank. I would be less likely to do it again since the grind is so long, regardless of the rewards, which is where account-wide comes in.




    If you have the money and the manpower, it would be just like any other game. It would be 2-3 years of dev time, maybe a little more depending. It would probably be easier since a lot stuff, like classes, is going to be recycled.

    I wanted to post everything to the forums so everyone has access to it, although I am a forum noob haha. Im also not much of fan of google docs. Is what it is.
    I like this.

    I think if they made rank account-wide it would come across a couple issues:

    The first one I can see is would the rank be server-bound, or whole entire game-bound.
    If server bound, then what happens when you transfer a character from one server to another? Maybe just makes it easier to have it game-bound.
    Rank bonuses do not give bonus outside of the Ettenmoors. So the bonuses wouldn't be an issue at any stage of the game, however issue #2 is pretty big:
    What happens to the players who already have many rank 15s? Possibly just more rank is required to get to the same rank, or perhaps they just eat it and get screwed over and it takes the same amount of rank just account-bound to all their guys to 15.

    I think Whitewolf that what you want is the "more cosmetic rewards" in the form of titles, deeds, and more. Perhaps the TITLES, "Rank Frames" (from what I gathered), exclusive mounts/ cosmetics should be available to ALL characters on an account (similar to the Legendary Server Rewards????) once a rank on ANY character has been achieved? Thus allowing for both players who play similarly to you (as in they will only do it if it benefits their main) as well as allowing players who like to have a bajillion hard-worked/ maxed out toons to both get similar rank rewards without regarding to how many rank 15's they have. Sort of a 1-time rank reward per acc perhaps like the "yearly" boxes? All characters get MORE BOXES when you make them that gives them your rank reward (but not the rank).

    I think that the want for crystals and other LI upgrades is already addressed in our document.

    I hope you don't mind that I tried to explain out the idea, how it world work/ be implemented. Tell me what you think?

    -Alexanda

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Alexanda View Post

    I think if they made rank account-wide it would come across a couple issues:

    The first one I can see is would the rank be server-bound, or whole entire game-bound.
    If server bound, then what happens when you transfer a character from one server to another? Maybe just makes it easier to have it game-bound.
    Rank bonuses do not give bonus outside of the Ettenmoors. So the bonuses wouldn't be an issue at any stage of the game, however issue #2 is pretty big:
    What happens to the players who already have many rank 15s? Possibly just more rank is required to get to the same rank, or perhaps they just eat it and get screwed over and it takes the same amount of rank just account-bound to all their guys to 15.

    I think Whitewolf that what you want is the "more cosmetic rewards" in the form of titles, deeds, and more. Perhaps the TITLES, "Rank Frames" (from what I gathered), exclusive mounts/ cosmetics should be available to ALL characters on an account (similar to the Legendary Server Rewards????) once a rank on ANY character has been achieved? Thus allowing for both players who play similarly to you (as in they will only do it if it benefits their main) as well as allowing players who like to have a bajillion hard-worked/ maxed out toons to both get similar rank rewards without regarding to how many rank 15's they have. Sort of a 1-time rank reward per acc perhaps like the "yearly" boxes? All characters get MORE BOXES when you make them that gives them your rank reward (but not the rank).

    I hope you don't mind that I tried to explain out the idea, how it world work/ be implemented. Tell me what you think?

    -Alexanda
    Rank would be account bound, similar to how store bought stuff is account bound. You would retain your Rank if you were to change servers.

    If Rank would be made account wide, characters would just become the highest Rank on their account the first time they enter the moors.


    The reason I suggest Rank to be account wide is that its one of those Grinds that can take thousands of hours of gameplay to achieve. You can be constantly active in the moors on a daily basis and it could still take years to reach Rank 15, and that's just on 1 character. How would you feel if you grinded out Rank 15, then SSG released a new race/class that you really love. So you switch mains and now you're Rank is back to 1 and you have to spend thousands of more hours reaching Rank 15 again? I probably wouldn't even switch mains but I guess others may be up for it.

    Like I said above, it feels like every other MMO I play has gone the way of Account-Wide. You earn a mount in game, you get it on all your characters. You get a collectible, all characters. You reach max rep level, you get 10%/2x faster rep on alts. You complete specific progression quests, all alts have those quests auto finished. You earn a champion level, all alts get that champion level. Bound to account gear (which Lotro has somewhat). Buy an item from the cash shop, account-wide. Earn an achievement or title, all characters get that title. Account-wide craft bag. Lotro seems to be the only MMO (that I know of) that is still stuck in the per character past. Sure some of the stuff is account-wide, and they started selling account-wide mounts in the store. But a lot of what should be account wide isn't, like unique rewards from festivals/events or certain grinds.

    You could meet in the middle and make all the rewards account-wide while keeping Rank character wide. But at that point I would probably just make Rank account-wide too if I was a dev.

    You cant really go wrong either way, its just the industry seems to be shifting to account-wide and it would be wiser to follow that than trying to stay on your own path.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteWolf21x View Post
    But each player is the same player. They already made rank 15 so why should they have to do it again?
    The character is rank 15, not the player, as it's an RPG and so stuff like that naturally goes by character. Just like in PvE.

    Now, I wouldn't object to established players not having to start at rank 1 if they decide to switch what they're playing, given that it's a massive grind, but being all like "I got rank 15 already, if they come up with something new I should instantly get that at rank 15 too" is way too much. If you choose to play something else or if anything new were to come out you should expect to have to do some work at least.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteWolf21x View Post
    Rank would be account bound, similar to how store bought stuff is account bound. You would retain your Rank if you were to change servers.

    If Rank would be made account wide, characters would just become the highest Rank on their account the first time they enter the moors.


    The reason I suggest Rank to be account wide is that its one of those Grinds that can take thousands of hours of gameplay to achieve. You can be constantly active in the moors on a daily basis and it could still take years to reach Rank 15, and that's just on 1 character. How would you feel if you grinded out Rank 15, then SSG released a new race/class that you really love. So you switch mains and now you're Rank is back to 1 and you have to spend thousands of more hours reaching Rank 15 again? I probably wouldn't even switch mains but I guess others may be up for it.

    Like I said above, it feels like every other MMO I play has gone the way of Account-Wide. You earn a mount in game, you get it on all your characters. You get a collectible, all characters. You reach max rep level, you get 10%/2x faster rep on alts. You complete specific progression quests, all alts have those quests auto finished. You earn a champion level, all alts get that champion level. Bound to account gear (which Lotro has somewhat). Buy an item from the cash shop, account-wide. Earn an achievement or title, all characters get that title. Account-wide craft bag. Lotro seems to be the only MMO (that I know of) that is still stuck in the per character past. Sure some of the stuff is account-wide, and they started selling account-wide mounts in the store. But a lot of what should be account wide isn't, like unique rewards from festivals/events or certain grinds.

    You could meet in the middle and make all the rewards account-wide while keeping Rank character wide. But at that point I would probably just make Rank account-wide too if I was a dev.

    You cant really go wrong either way, its just the industry seems to be shifting to account-wide and it would be wiser to follow that than trying to stay on your own path.
    Hi there!

    Apologies for pointing out what could not work in the suggestion you've made. I should've replied to it with an enlightening point of view rather than saying why it won't work.
    It was not my intention to crack off your ideas, I really find them interesting! Just didn't realise I should've worded it differently and from another perspective.

    Hopefully it wasn't too much of a problem...!

    Edit:
    For what it's worth: perhaps, instead of making it an account-wide feature on its own, ranks would stack and give additional Battlefield Promotion to an extent?
    Similar to how games like For Honor did it with reputation. (20 levels = 1 reputation. You'd begin as a reputation 0 level 0 and when reaching level 21 you'd start at Reputation 1 Level 1)

    In this case it'd be more like Rank 0 Class 0, for example, and when the player reaches rank 15 on one character, they'd be rank 15 on every character BUT they can rank up 15 times again and earn Class 1.
    This would just keep on counting. The only thing that's left would be balancing, but that's more for the developers to figure out.
    Last edited by SlopranoDark; May 25 2019 at 05:56 AM.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    The character is rank 15, not the player, as it's an RPG and so stuff like that naturally goes by character. Just like in PvE.

    Now, I wouldn't object to established players not having to start at rank 1 if they decide to switch what they're playing, given that it's a massive grind, but being all like "I got rank 15 already, if they come up with something new I should instantly get that at rank 15 too" is way too much. If you choose to play something else or if anything new were to come out you should expect to have to do some work at least.
    I think of ranks as 15 levels after you hit cap.
    So to me it makes sense to have account rewards like I talked about earlier similar to the yearly veteran boxes.
    I like the idea of only having to do one toon to 15 to get them all, but they'd have to redo the amount per rank to rank up for it to be account-wide, and then in that case it would most likely just make it way more difficult for a casual player like me, even after years and years of playing to get to rank 15 on even one toon (currently have a rank 11, and rank 12, and rank 8).
    But yeah, absolutely: Say a new class comes out and you automatically have rank 15 on him, I doubt you'd return to the game for long if you came back because of new classes if you automatically had it at 15 already because you "already did the work". Sometimes returning players just want a new grind and if that isn't there then that becomes an issue.

  10. #10
    There have already been numerous threads about PVMP (well written, ordered, clean) that have either been deleted by the community manager or locked due to trolls posting on them and relegated to the depths of the Monster Play subforum.

    If you'd like to find excellent relevant point-by-point discussion and analysis about PVMP, please look at the Monster Play subforum and ask Cordovan to send you copies of the original post in deleted threads such as "Everything Wrong with PVMP Balance"
    The Black Appendage of Sauron

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers View Post
    There have already been numerous threads about PVMP (well written, ordered, clean) that have either been deleted by the community manager or locked due to trolls posting on them and relegated to the depths of the Monster Play subforum.

    If you'd like to find excellent relevant point-by-point discussion and analysis about PVMP, please look at the Monster Play subforum and ask Cordovan to send you copies of the original post in deleted threads such as "Everything Wrong with PVMP Balance"
    They have been deleted not because of the quality of the content provided or inaccuracy or lack of constructive criticism. It was erased due to insane amount of vile comments unleashed in thread. You should not blame Cordovan , but players. They have succeeded in ruination of thread and to make it worse, others did encouraged it furthermore to cause a great chaos.

    Unfortunately i do recall your thread it was indeed well written and well researched , a bit bitter and sarcastic but ironically you spoke the truth, but perhaps your approach was not so wise and did triggered the haters to retaliate back.

    You can ask him to give you the copy, it probably can be done. Monster play community is dreadful. The Devs have been attacked and bashed by MP community in numerous ways over years. You should not surprised they may even turned your back as well. There are some things I will not state in public , but I knew the dark side of Monster play and community extremely well. I have personally received some of the unimaginable things one can.

    You give you get,though there are exceptions to be found out there. At current point you should be grateful Monster play does even exist anymore, no matter how terrible action is.
    Last edited by Vanyaerunanethiel; Jun 21 2019 at 02:35 AM.

  12. #12
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyaerunanethiel View Post
    They have been deleted not because of the quality of the content provided or inaccuracy or lack of constructive criticism. It was erased due to insane amount of vile comments unleashed in thread. You should not blame Cordovan , but players. They have succeeded in ruination of thread and to make it worse, others did encouraged it furthermore to cause a great chaos.

    Unfortunately i do recall your thread it was indeed well written and well researched , a bit bitter and sarcastic but ironically you spoke the truth, but perhaps your approach was not so wise and did triggered the haters to retaliate back.

    You can ask him to give you the copy, it probably can be done. Monster play community is dreadful. The Devs have been attacked and bashed by MP community in numerous ways over years. You should not surprised they may even turned your back as well. There are some things I will not state in public , but I knew the dark side of Monster play and community extremely well. I have personally received some of the unimaginable things one can.

    You give you get,though there are exceptions to be found out there. At current point you should be grateful Monster play does even exist anymore, no matter how terrible action is.
    Exactly as I was told too.
    Hence I'd like to encourage people in this very thread to properly discuss the ideas without vile or rude comments towards us, SSG or anyone else!
    Those who do post rude comments will be reported directly to the staff. Those who read rude comments: please don't respond to them, it's not worth it. Instead, roll over it by responding to someone who properly involved themsleves.

    Thank you!
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by SlopranoDark View Post
    Prologue

    it is a serious problem for the future of LotRO.
    While I really appreciate and admire your passion and the amount of work you have put into this article, it is all ultimately for nought.

    You fail in your first sentence in the opening post. The future of Lotro is in no means going to be affected in the smallest way by anything to do with PvMP.
    We were using that argument in 2010 when we were trying to get something, anything really for the moors folks.

    In the 9 years since we have seen what? OC/EC move (which made them completely useless), back doors and a new tree at hotspot. Everything else we got was as an indirect balance from PVE. including a way for a huge population to cheat their ranks and in turn creating a boredom threshold because there was nothing left to strive for once they cheated their way up and those of us who were against the cheating got exasperated and bored at the lack anyone who cared. Here is just a single thread from back then about a subject that ultimately killed the moors and still hasn't been fixed. LINK HERE

    Even more so now, you are trying to change something that physically can be unaltered due to 2 reasons.

    1) Ssg do not have the resources to give over to anything PvMP
    2) not that you need a second reason but anyway... Ssg do not have anyone around who knows the PvMP code well enough not to break it any more.

    So, just enjoy what you have got or like us others with any sense.... go back to Pve or move to a title that caters for what you are looking for. Lotro has always been 99% about the story and the story only. It took me a long time to realise that but now I am cool with it and personally glad that they are still here and kicking strong.

    I wish you all the best
    Last edited by TearMaker; Jun 21 2019 at 03:21 AM.
    WHY DO PEOPLE WHO KNOW THE LEAST, KNOW IT THE LOUDEST?

  14. #14
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by TearMaker View Post
    While I really appreciate and admire your passion and the amount of work you have put into this article, it is all ultimately for nought.

    You fail in your first sentence in the opening post. The future of Lotro is in no means going to be affected in the smallest way by anything to do with PvMP.
    We were using that argument in 2010 when we were trying to get something, anything really for the moors folks.
    Hi there.
    Don't forget that there's many people who already play Lotro and many people outside Lotro who LOVE PvP. So even if it isn't necessarily for the Lotro community on its own, it may attract people from abroad to either rejoin or join the game from scratch.

    So actually, yes I think it does affect Lotro's future positively if done right.

    Quote Originally Posted by TearMaker View Post
    In the 9 years since we have seen what? OC/EC move (which made them completely useless), back doors and a new tree at hotspot. Everything else we got was as an indirect balance from PVE. including a way for a huge population to cheat their ranks and in turn creating a boredom threshold because there was nothing left to strive for once they cheated their way up and those of us who were against the cheating got exasperated and bored at the lack anyone who cared. Here is just a single thread from back then about a subject that ultimately killed the moors and still hasn't been fixed.
    I see the concerns and I definitely get where you're coming from!
    I mean it's exactly the reason why a few friends and I decided to bring this back up: there's most definitely a large portion of the community who are eager to play some PvMP

    Quote Originally Posted by TearMaker View Post
    Even more so now, you are trying to change something that physically can be unaltered due to 2 reasons.

    1) Ssg do not have the resources to give over to anything PvMP
    2) not that you need a second reason but anyway... Ssg do not have anyone around who knows the PvMP code well enough not to break it any more.

    So, just enjoy what you have got or like us others with any sense.... go back to Pve or move to a title that caters for what you are looking for. Lotro has always been 99% about the story and the story only. It took me a long time to realise that but now I am cool with it and personally glad that they are still here and kicking strong.

    I wish you all the best
    Point 1 is a statement I've heard many, many times before but it has never been properly supported with facts. Nobody knows the exact budget of SSG, only they do.
    A similar answer counts for point 2.

    As for the story part, I'm aware that Lotro's story-line most likely plays the largest part in the game. But don't forget that PvMP has a GREAT story potential which has not yet been utilized. So perhaps it's an idea to suggest transforming PvMP to something more story-alike?

    Thank you for the feedback! We intend to help and make the community happier.
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  15. #15
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    Gallifrey. I need a Jelly Baby.
    Posts
    21,144
    I know almost nothing about PvMP, but one thing I do know for a fact that almost every PvMP player I've met in game over the last 12 years is a good natured player with a love for Tolkien. Don't pay attention to the handful of malcontents in the forum, they do not represent the PvMP player base.

    I'm in full support for any attention given to the Moors. I am even willing to go without content so they can get their piece of the pie. Seriously, I want you guys to get taken care of.


    Man, I wish chicken run would come back so I get the "Fool" title again. For those that may not know, "Chicken Run" was an event in the Moors about 10 or 11 years that had you as a chicken run from one end of the Moors to the other without getting killed. The event last maybe 90 minutes before the the Moors became unplayable, probably because of too many people.

    The next day the dev that made the event made a public apology in the forums, saying the whole thing was his fault. He said he was in the parking lot when a coworker told him what happened, and his head sunk when he got the news.

    Surprisingly, the responding posts were positive with players describing their major screw ups at work, and not to feel bad about it.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  16. #16
    Ultimately if you want to encourage PvMP and restore some playability to the region I would suggest a few things that mostly effect how gameplay is enjoyed. Everyone has different play styles and I think we would all do well to respect that notion. However there are a few things that discourage good PvMP by how they effect all play styles.

    1. Work on balance, as a solo player (my play style) there is no enjoyment in engaging in a fight (either side) and dying in a few seconds. I get there are some circumstances where this may occur (Burg/warg stalking prey), but it’s not conducive to retaining a player base when the opposing side can kill you with little to no effort. I know there’s a lot of tension with this topic and it would go down a bad path so leave this topic civil. There’s a lot of topics (one mentioned above) that have approached this topic and I would suggest you look there.
    -It’s a topic of dissent by many but... (re)introduce mandatory PvP armor sets. Not the ###### scaled version that no one used, but take a few moments and look at previous sets from the past and work from there. Give them set bonuses dependent on the type/class. Offer a defensive oriented set and a offensive oriented set in a two tier approach. Tier one is granted upon entering the moors, and relegated to only the moors. Tier two is a trade up option from commendations gained in battle (still relegated to moors only). If the armor is a socketed style 1-2 essences, allow the barters in GV to provide them and be in line with a set of stats that can be balanced from. Giving armor to players that has no basis from their PvE ability allows you to control variables when approaching balance. Currently the disparity between quest/instance/raid armor sets is the basis for most of the imbalance we see (sans a few classes). This will eliminate PvE based set bonuses (current and future) that have no real utility in the moors.
    -Offer a pvp jewel set with small bonuses when used together, while giving freeps the option to opt out of the jewel set and retain their PvE set. This will still allow some minor stratification between peers but will limit the extent of that imbalance.

    2. Community, tricky one, but I would advise against taking the advice of some of the most vocal proponents. There are people who have selfish ambitions in their advice/suggestions and those will only further escalate the problems we face. Ultimately the community has to be in agreement the changes and with good intention. We want to promote better gameplay for both sides, not promote one side more than the other.

    3. Currently one style of play dominates the entire map. Rarely do I see a solo player roaming the map, more often but still rare are small(er) groups (3-6) who are often called out and destroyed/camped and definitively outnumbered without a fighting chance. What ends up dominating the map, and vacuums up the solos/small groups are loosely grouped zergs. Rather than raid v raid, or group v group or even solo v solo we end up with a large mass (which strains graphically =lag) that will kill everything in its path until it conveniently wants to turn around once it nears TR/ Lug then heads back to where it came from. Now I see this is some people’s preferred play style, but it comes at the detriment to ALL other play styles. There is no incentive to run solo or small groups, those were reversed years ago. Reintroduce incentives for various play styles, that will draw in people who don’t necessarily want to play at 40-60fps and crash every few minutes.

    -Make keep backdoors OUT OF COMBAT ONLY, this make sense in every single aspect.
    -Fix the Rez one-shots. They are being exploited (won’t go into detail of how or who) and it allows players to sit at a Rez undetected within ranged attack distance and repeatedly kill the same players limiting them to only logging off until that exploiter leaves. This has been reported to GMs dozens of times, with video evidence and it’s been repeatedly ignored.
    -Fix various other exploits/bugs that have had detrimental effects on gameplay. Many of these have been blatantly ignored by GMs and Devs for years and years.
    -Fix the OC/EC locations as well as TA bridge, they were strategically placed and offered enhanced gameplay for different styles.
    -remove OSG or do something of actual value with it, literally the only people that use this map are rank farmers.. give it utility or cut it.
    -pass through monster play skills of all classes and scale defined value skills (not based on percentage). Many of these skills have not kept up with increases in their ratios to morale pools. For instance a Warg howl (defeat response gated) used to provide ~10% of total morale, now it barely gives 5%. Flayer bubble is minuscule compared to the morale pool. (Just used these as examples since I’m familiar with the class). There are dozens of skills that just have been forgotten by the scaling department, this could make some classes relavent again (looking at you warleader).
    ~ Anaxander R9 Warden, Karukh R12 Warg ~ Formerly of Elendilmir

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    163
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    I know almost nothing about PvMP, but one thing I do know for a fact that almost every PvMP player I've met in game over the last 12 years is a good natured player with a love for Tolkien. Don't pay attention to the handful of malcontents in the forum, they do not represent the PvMP player base.

    I'm in full support for any attention given to the Moors. I am even willing to go without content so they can get their piece of the pie. Seriously, I want you guys to get taken care of.


    Man, I wish chicken run would come back so I get the "Fool" title again. For those that may not know, "Chicken Run" was an event in the Moors about 10 or 11 years that had you as a chicken run from one end of the Moors to the other without getting killed. The event last maybe 90 minutes before the the Moors became unplayable, probably because of too many people.

    The next day the dev that made the event made a public apology in the forums, saying the whole thing was his fault. He said he was in the parking lot when a coworker told him what happened, and his head sunk when he got the news.

    Surprisingly, the responding posts were positive with players describing their major screw ups at work, and not to feel bad about it.
    Happy to hear you're enthusiastic about this!
    I'd love to see Chicken Run return! These kind of community-driven events are good for the health of PvMP.

    If you'd like, share the words of this document! The more people interested, the better.

    Quote Originally Posted by AaronIU View Post
    Ultimately if you want to encourage PvMP and restore some playability to the region I would suggest a few things that mostly effect how gameplay is enjoyed. Everyone has different play styles and I think we would all do well to respect that notion. However there are a few things that discourage good PvMP by how they effect all play styles.

    1. Work on balance, as a solo player (my play style) there is no enjoyment in engaging in a fight (either side) and dying in a few seconds. I get there are some circumstances where this may occur (Burg/warg stalking prey), but it’s not conducive to retaining a player base when the opposing side can kill you with little to no effort. I know there’s a lot of tension with this topic and it would go down a bad path so leave this topic civil. There’s a lot of topics (one mentioned above) that have approached this topic and I would suggest you look there.
    -It’s a topic of dissent by many but... (re)introduce mandatory PvP armor sets. Not the ###### scaled version that no one used, but take a few moments and look at previous sets from the past and work from there. Give them set bonuses dependent on the type/class. Offer a defensive oriented set and a offensive oriented set in a two tier approach. Tier one is granted upon entering the moors, and relegated to only the moors. Tier two is a trade up option from commendations gained in battle (still relegated to moors only). If the armor is a socketed style 1-2 essences, allow the barters in GV to provide them and be in line with a set of stats that can be balanced from. Giving armor to players that has no basis from their PvE ability allows you to control variables when approaching balance. Currently the disparity between quest/instance/raid armor sets is the basis for most of the imbalance we see (sans a few classes). This will eliminate PvE based set bonuses (current and future) that have no real utility in the moors. ...
    Thank you so much for this valuable piece! I'll make sure to integrate a few of these notes in the document because we did miss points that you just brought up (such as the backdoor issue!)
    Keep the feedback coming!
    Start customizing your vital here! PvMP could use some love!
    Join the discussion

  18. #18
    after years of nothing, Vastin did alot of work and devoted dev time just to address PvMP issues, These changes were welcome and way overdue.

    Did the player base of PvMP'ers increase or decrease? I think it actually died a bit more TBH,since creeps were no longer punching bags. poorly equipped freeps that like PvMP but dont invest all the time in raiding just stopped.

    The Disparity between non,semi and fully geared freeps is just so massive and unbalanced vs. creeps that really the only way for parity is pvp armour, usable for freeps in the ettenmoors instance ONLY. Let freeps keep LI's and jewelry.

    This suggestion is a no go for SSG, they have said so many times. Something about not wanting to diminish player effort in achieving gear.

    So that means balance is impossible, balance against what? bad freeps? poorly geared freeps or raid geared freeps? Only to do it all again for creeps next update?

    The devs are up against the games basic design, its just not PVP friendly.

    Theory crafting about PvMP on the forums is a hobby now for some of us but in the end thats all it is really.

    A healthy PvMP community would be action on all servers, something more people would be interested in.

    Some death spirals you cant pull out of.
    .

    Mortem Tyrannis

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    163

    Lightbulb Please vote for your favourite community-made suggestions!

    Hi everybody!

    I just opened a poll containing a few suggestions made by the community so far.
    This poll will be updated every now and then. Don't worry: you can edit your votes even after submitting!

    Note: Just like the other poll, you must log into your Google account. This allows us to prevent spam.

    Please let yourself be heard: https://forms.gle/WGEEHAAqjwwN8SqU9
    Start customizing your vital here! PvMP could use some love!
    Join the discussion

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by subadar View Post
    after years of nothing, Vastin did alot of work and devoted dev time just to address PvMP issues, These changes were welcome and way overdue.

    Did the player base of PvMP'ers increase or decrease? I think it actually died a bit more TBH,since creeps were no longer punching bags. poorly equipped freeps that like PvMP but dont invest all the time in raiding just stopped.
    To be fair to the situation, the changes to PvMP were accidental, subsequent changes were made in regard to PvE which effected PvMP. The only Dev work we’ve been reported about is the detachment of creeps from NPCs. As important as this is, we haven’t been updated in a long time about any changes to PvMP other than increased melee range. Maybe you can help me catch up on anything else that was improved? (Genuine question, not sarcasm).

    Quote Originally Posted by subadar View Post
    The Disparity between non,semi and fully geared freeps is just so massive and unbalanced vs. creeps that really the only way for parity is pvp armour, usable for freeps in the ettenmoors instance ONLY. Let freeps keep LI's and jewelry.

    This suggestion is a no go for SSG, they have said so many times. Something about not wanting to diminish player effort in achieving gear.

    So that means balance is impossible, balance against what? bad freeps? poorly geared freeps or raid geared freeps? Only to do it all again for creeps next update?
    I totally agree and this HAS TO BE THE BREAK POINT if we want to move forward at all. This position can not stand if they are interested at all in improving pvmp. The differences in armor alone creates MASSIVE disparities and too many variables to control. This “diminish player effort” is literally the most ill conceived excuse for this they could come up with. You get another reward for your effort when you upgrade your entire pvp set to Tier 2. More players in the moors = more VIP, but when your first experience of walking into the moors is getting killed in 5s for 30 times, you’re likely to not return. This disparity and balance point need to be in a smaller frame, otherwise we are just exacerbating already large class imbalances.
    ~ Anaxander R9 Warden, Karukh R12 Warg ~ Formerly of Elendilmir

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    163

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by AaronIU View Post
    I totally agree and this HAS TO BE THE BREAK POINT if we want to move forward at all. This position can not stand if they are interested at all in improving pvmp. The differences in armor alone creates MASSIVE disparities and too many variables to control. This “diminish player effort” is literally the most ill conceived excuse for this they could come up with. You get another reward for your effort when you upgrade your entire pvp set to Tier 2. More players in the moors = more VIP, but when your first experience of walking into the moors is getting killed in 5s for 30 times, you’re likely to not return. This disparity and balance point need to be in a smaller frame, otherwise we are just exacerbating already large class imbalances.
    I agree with this too! I have put this concern on the community suggestion poll for people to vote and give their opinion on.
    Make sure to check it out!

    PS: To encourage people to think about their opinion on a suggestion, every 'share your opinion' field after every question is now made required.
    Though if you're really not sure, you can write 'Not Applicable' or something along this line.
    Start customizing your vital here! PvMP could use some love!
    Join the discussion

  22. #22
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    35
    My view of the PVP at this and the last level cap is that it is purely the players. The level 120 balance up until release of the new area has been pretty neat in some cases, except beornings composure, snares and just burgs as a class.People dont go to the moors on certain times on my server or atleast didn't when I last pvped to avoid the creep raid that was on .

    Would be some realistic aims to change/fix that may help the balance :
    -Increase BA damage so snares aren't the only damaging skill and hand in hand buff to nerf snares or make them pottable
    -Remove Knives out and ready and able from moors, or make it not reset TNG > 2 50% heals + a pot and 90% dmg reduction x2 AND hips is way overkill considering the dmg capability a burg has is disgusting atm
    -Nerf composures cooldown maybe doubling it., as bears wont die if they choose to play passive in red
    -Nerf vitality in the moors, stopping health stacking and make people more pro mits - if not make mits easier to gain ( oc is harder than normal mits !!!!) Because Morale stacking IS the current meta for most classes if used correctly, - % Heals on guard bear champ warden hunter rk etc etc - makes fights alot more down to skill and rotation than whos got more heals
    -Nerf spider bite - the skill cancels any mele class that isnt a bear so needs to be changed abit too op
    -Fix wls heals and buff their dmg maybe to be more like a cappy class instead of a rez machine
    Thats some of the things that comes to my head, idk if others said this or not because im just imputting my personal opinion on all this.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
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    The Netherlands
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by pinlu View Post
    My view of the PVP at this and the last level cap is that it is purely the players. The level 120 balance up until release of the new area has been pretty neat in some cases, except beornings composure, snares and just burgs as a class.People dont go to the moors on certain times on my server or atleast didn't when I last pvped to avoid the creep raid that was on .

    Would be some realistic aims to change/fix that may help the balance :
    -Increase BA damage so snares aren't the only damaging skill and hand in hand buff to nerf snares or make them pottable
    -Remove Knives out and ready and able from moors, or make it not reset TNG > 2 50% heals + a pot and 90% dmg reduction x2 AND hips is way overkill considering the dmg capability a burg has is disgusting atm
    -Nerf composures cooldown maybe doubling it., as bears wont die if they choose to play passive in red
    -Nerf vitality in the moors, stopping health stacking and make people more pro mits - if not make mits easier to gain ( oc is harder than normal mits !!!!) Because Morale stacking IS the current meta for most classes if used correctly, - % Heals on guard bear champ warden hunter rk etc etc - makes fights alot more down to skill and rotation than whos got more heals
    -Nerf spider bite - the skill cancels any mele class that isnt a bear so needs to be changed abit too op
    -Fix wls heals and buff their dmg maybe to be more like a cappy class instead of a rez machine
    Thats some of the things that comes to my head, idk if others said this or not because im just imputting my personal opinion on all this.
    Thanks for your input!
    Are you sure about increasing the BA's damage? I can hit for 30k on a good geared freep with both Revenge and Tangleshot while the target is slowed and the cooldown on those isn't that big. I'm a rank 5 BA as well with barely any Audacity.
    (I got the skills through the Lotro store a looong time ago)

    Not sure about the rest specifically.
    Start customizing your vital here! PvMP could use some love!
    Join the discussion

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
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    163

    Question Feedback on the document!

    Hello everybody!

    I've noticed many comments, suggestions and filled questionnaires passing by, but I don't think I've heard much feedback on the document itself!
    Would you like to let us know what you think about it? It'll be highly appreciated!

    Feel free to go deep into details about it.
    Thank you for the responses and support thus far!
    Start customizing your vital here! PvMP could use some love!
    Join the discussion

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by SlopranoDark View Post
    Hello everybody!

    I've noticed many comments, suggestions and filled questionnaires passing by, but I don't think I've heard much feedback on the document itself!
    Would you like to let us know what you think about it? It'll be highly appreciated!

    Feel free to go deep into details about it.
    Thank you for the responses and support thus far!
    Quote Originally Posted by SlopranoDark View Post
    Warg Passives [#1]
    Adjust “Shadow Stance” Melee damage bonus to +10% Melee damage and +1200 in-Combat Power Regen;
    (+15% and +513 are current respectively)
    Upgrade “Four-Legged Foe” Evade Rating to +7563 Evade Rating;
    (+2521 is current)
    Upgrade “Foe of the Light” Tactical Mitigation Rating to +11340 Tactical Mitigation;
    (+4727 is current)
    Upgrade “Flayer Stance” Increase the bubble strength of the “Flayer Stance” bubble to be the size of 2.5% of the player’s total HP instead of the current system and increase the bubble refresh length to 10 seconds;
    (+0% and +7 seconds are current respectively)
    Warg Actives [#1]
    Add passive on dissapear that if a warg does not kill a target, they cant use it for 30 seconds on breaking stealth, or having stealth broken.
    This.... this... right here is HORRIBLE... absolutely trash. You are nerfing straight off 5% warg damage in shadow with LITERALLY ZERO compensation for it. You want to up evade... evade... by a fraction of a useful amount when freeps have enough finesse that is literally doesn’t even make a difference. Burgs can sustain 50k dps burst 180-300k damage and have 3-400k morale with their heals... but you want to take 5% off the top of warg damage????? This is one of the most pathetic attempts at a nerf for a class that has ZERO survivability as it is already if you want to make the most of damage. So if I want survivability I have to trait 3/3 mits or 6/0 mits and still do nooo damage. This is laughable. Then this garbage nerf on HIPs... are you serious??? Are they doing the same nerf to burgs?? I can promise you 100000% they aren’t... so why make warg HIPs conditional? Burgs get multiple hips, by way of reset and short cd.. we have a long cd. If you institute this ridiculous nerf to wargs... I would petition to just delete the class because it would be useless aside from a squishy (even when fully tanked up) debuffer.

    Edit:
    If you want support from half of the population (creeps) I would suggest you look past all the freep posts looking for nerfs as your proposed changes and take the time to go onto THE PVmP server of this game and ask real veteran creeps what they suggest. I can promise you not a single warg on Ark would support changes like these. I can tell you’ve never seriously played Warg or you’d know how I’ll-conceived changes like this are. Ask wargs why they don’t play flayer, ask wargs why they use hips defensively. I have a R12 warg, It was my main during RoR, first half of HD, last half of Mordor and all through U23... if I think the warg changes are terrible there’s probably a good reason I think that. I can’t imagine what some of the other classes think of your other creep changes... Do your homework, stop looking for freep advice how to nerf creeps because we don’t need nerfs, we need scaling.
    Last edited by AaronIU; Jun 25 2019 at 12:20 PM. Reason: Additional suggestion.
    ~ Anaxander R9 Warden, Karukh R12 Warg ~ Formerly of Elendilmir

 

 
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