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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    849

    How the new Virtue system punishes players and how to fix it!

    So, as far as I can tell from the Bullroarer preview, this new system will be both rewarding and punishing to players, but in this case, it seems so much more punishing than it is rewarding.
    First of all, it seems that characters created after this update will have access to much less virtue XP than a character who has done all the deeds before the new update, even if they choose to upgrade all the same virtues to the same rank and if that isn't an oversight from SSG, then it's a terrible idea.

    Secondly, characters who have done all the deeds before this update will not be able to convert the ranks they gained from virtues they don't need into virtue XP. From that perspective, characters who start fresh after this update will have an advantage since they will be able to focus solely on the virtues they need. Or... they could be new players (noobs) and choose to rank virtues that are irrelevant to them. And after few months, when they are no longer noobs, they discover that they have ranked all the wrong virtues for their character but have run out of deeds to rank the ones that are relevant, because the system doesn't allow ranks from a certain virtue to be converted back to virtue XP to put in another virtue. That would make him feel like they would have to basically start a character from scratch to fix that what they did wrong and that would be enough to make many players rage quit the game.

    In any case, it seems that from now on, we'll be forced to do a lot more deeds to get the same results that we got before, even if we choose to focus on one virtue at a time.

    So here are my suggestions:


    1. Make this system more similar to the Class Trait system where a player can reset all of their virtue XP "points" and re-spend them on other virtues.
    2. Make sure that all players who have done the exact same deeds have the same amount of virtue XP points, regardless of when they completed them (before or after the update).
    3. Allow players on Bullroarer to auto-discover&complete deeds to test how far they can go with all the virtue XP that is available from the deeds of the game, so that they can compare those values with the values from copied toons.

    Last edited by DiogoVP; May 16 2019 at 04:38 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    East coast, USA
    Posts
    2,248
    I am curious about the xp comparison between deeds completed before the update to after. are there any details on that? Or have the devs explained why it is different?

    I miss having the dev diaries when it comes to things like this.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    849
    Quote Originally Posted by Thornglen View Post
    I am curious about the xp comparison between deeds completed before the update to after. are there any details on that? Or have the devs explained why it is different?

    I miss having the dev diaries when it comes to things like this.
    The devs haven't mentioned that at all, which makes me think it might be an oversight... or a terrible idea.
    For instance, a character with all virtues at max rank on live will have approximately all virtues at rank 50, which is approximately 63 * 21 = approximately 1323 deeds for a new character to get the same results. There aren't 1323 virtue awarding deeds in the game, so a new characters will be much farther behind older ones.
    If there is a dev diary about this, I doubt they will be mentioning this gap and will just highlight the "good" stuff.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    East USA
    Posts
    479
    These are very good points. I certainly hope deed completion before and after the update yields the same amount of experience. If they don't I'll be really ticked off. To not be credited for what we've done is beyond comprehension. Of course new toons will have more deeds to do, as they've done fewer of them, how would that be an issue?
    .

    I bring word from Lord Elrond of Rivendell. An Alliance once existed between Elves and Men. Long ago we fought and died together. We come to honor that allegiance.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    432
    SSG, general consensus seems to be that revamping the virtue system needs a LOT more work. Why not put this back in the oven and let it cook for a few more months so that such drastic changes to a system that's been around from the beginning doesn't turn into another Helms Deep trait tree debacle?
    “And some things that should not have been forgotten were lost. History became legend. Legend became myth. And for two and a half thousand years, the ring passed out of all knowledge.”
    ? J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by DiogoVP View Post


    So here are my suggestions:


    1. Make this system more similar to the Class Trait system where a player can reset all of their virtue XP "points" and re-spend them on other virtues.
    2. Make sure that all players who have done the exact same deeds have the same amount of virtue XP points, regardless of when they completed them (before or after the update).
    3. Allow players on Bullroarer to auto-complete deeds to test how far they can go with all the virtue XP that is available from the deeds of the game, so that they can compare those values with the values from copied toons.

    I have to agree with this. When the change was announced, I liked the automatic assignment of virtue xp upon deed completion as it more or less preserves the feel of virtue earning that we're used to. But the more I think about it, assigning the virtue xp to a pool that we spend when we want and are paying attention to it really does seem superior.

    Also, you know how our trait trees get reset when SSG changes the rules on us? The same thing should happen for virtues, imo. And in addition to the system change, we have a new virtue that nobody has any ranks in. How many updates is it going to take to introduce the deeds (and other content) to catch Wit up to the rest if it's one we decide we want?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    849
    Quote Originally Posted by eanamdar View Post
    Of course new toons will have more deeds to do, as they've done fewer of them, how would that be an issue?

    That is not the issue. The issue is that players completing deeds before this update will get more ranks for their virtues than those who complete the exact same deeds after the update.

    Example:

    1st case: Completes 20 Honour deeds before the update -> Honour at rank 48 after the update

    2nd case: Completes the exact same 20 deeds for 1000 virtue XP each after the update -> Honour at rank 20.


    So, if you have two completionists, but one completes all deeds before the update and the other completes all deeds after the update, the latter will have around 2/5 the amount of virtues of the first. So in order for the latter to have the same amount of ranks, they would have to do about 150% more deeds, which the game wouldn't have available, since they both completed all deeds, and the latter would have to get the rest from the Store. That is what I meant!
    Last edited by DiogoVP; May 16 2019 at 06:08 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by DiogoVP View Post

    That is not the issue. The issue is that players completing deeds before this update will get more ranks for their virtues than those who complete the exactly same amount of deeds after the update.

    Example:

    1st case: Completes 20 Honour deeds before the update -> Honour at rank 48 after the update

    2nd case: Completes the exact same 20 deeds for 1000 virtue XP each after the update -> Honour at rank 20.


    So, if you have two completionists, but one completes all deeds before the update and the other completes all deeds after the update, the latter will have around 2/5 the amount of virtues of the first. So in order for the latter to have the same amount of ranks, they would have to do about 150% more deeds, which the game wouldn't have available, since they both completed all deeds, and the latter would have to get the rest from the Store. That is what I meant!
    It sure would be nice if they could balance this out a bit better. Part of the "work in progress" Thanks for the info DiogoVP!

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by DiogoVP View Post
    So, as far as I can tell from the Bullroarer preview, this new system will be both rewarding and punishing to players, but in this case, it seems so much more punishing than it is rewarding.
    First of all, it seems that characters created after this update will have access to much less virtue XP than a character who has done all the deeds before the new update, even if they choose to upgrade all the same virtues to the same rank and if that isn't an oversight from SSG, then it's a terrible idea.

    Secondly, characters who have done all the deeds before this update will not be able to convert the ranks they gained from virtues they don't need into virtue XP. From that perspective, characters who start fresh after this update will have an advantage since they will be able to focus solely on the virtues they need. Or... they could be new players (noobs) and choose to rank virtues that are irrelevant to them. And after few months, when they are no longer noobs, they discover that they have ranked all the wrong virtues for their character but have run out of deeds to rank the ones that are relevant, because the system doesn't allow ranks from a certain virtue to be converted back to virtue XP to put in another virtue. That would make him feel like they would have to basically start a character from scratch to fix that what they did wrong and that would be enough to make many players rage quit the game.

    In any case, it seems that from now on, we'll be forced to do a lot more deeds to get the same results that we got before, even if we choose to focus on one virtue at a time.

    So here are my suggestions:


    1. Make this system more similar to the Class Trait system where a player can reset all of their virtue XP "points" and re-spend them on other virtues.
    2. Make sure that all players who have done the exact same deeds have the same amount of virtue XP points, regardless of when they completed them (before or after the update).
    3. Allow players on Bullroarer to auto-discover&complete deeds to test how far they can go with all the virtue XP that is available from the deeds of the game, so that they can compare those values with the values from copied toons.

    Great post, great suggestions!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Elflord410 View Post
    SSG, general consensus seems to be that revamping the virtue system needs a LOT more work. Why not put this back in the oven and let it cook for a few more months so that such drastic changes to a system that's been around from the beginning doesn't turn into another Helms Deep trait tree debacle?
    Perhaps SSG want rid of all players but "whales".

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    366
    After the update there's going to be more ways than just deeds to level up virtues, among them daily quests and FI rewards. Since players pre-update don't have access to these rewards, my guess is the idea behind boosting virtues beyond how they should be scaled is meant to be both a gift to dedicated players as well as a sort of apology that they weren't able to make use of all the new ways to level virtues that will only be available after update. Seems perfectly fine to me.
    Arkenstone: Blulum (r12 Reaver), Tumblytwo-1 (r11 Champion), Gnaral (r7 Warg), Gnarfang (r7 Spider) - Malicious (Freep) / Nefarious (Creep)

    R.I.P. "The Blood Hand" 05/21/14

  12. #12
    Once this update goes live, will we still earn LP for finishing deeds or will that be changed along with the virtues system?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Moscow, Russia
    Posts
    257
    Quote Originally Posted by Giftel View Post
    Once this update goes live, will we still earn LP for finishing deeds or will that be changed along with the virtues system?
    On test server, only Virtue change to +1000 virtue xp. You still get same amount LP from deed, nothing changes here.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Elmagor View Post
    On test server, only Virtue change to +1000 virtue xp. You still get same amount LP from deed, nothing changes here.
    Thank you, Elmagor. Glad to hear it.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Fafoo View Post
    After the update there's going to be more ways than just deeds to level up virtues, among them daily quests and FI rewards. Since players pre-update don't have access to these rewards, my guess is the idea behind boosting virtues beyond how they should be scaled is meant to be both a gift to dedicated players as well as a sort of apology that they weren't able to make use of all the new ways to level virtues that will only be available after update. Seems perfectly fine to me.
    Now that's some skewed logic. No one needs any apology for not having been able to use the new ways to level virtues - because they were equally unavailable to anyone before and because they will be equally available to everyone after the update. The only fair way to move from the old virtue system to the new one would be to make it so that everyone gets the same amount of virtue XP no matter if you have completed some or all of the deeds before the update or if you roll a new alt after the update or if you are a totally new player. Moreover, it's normal practice to offer catch-up mechanics for newer players/alts, rather than punish them for being new.

 

 

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