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  1. #1
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    New Virtues = Pay to win?

    One 60 Virtue = An essence + passive bonus
    A 60 Virtue = 75 deeds(almost)

    Future T4/5/6 must be very required virtues.
    And obviously, Virtues will be an essential part of a character's power.

    Is it means without purchased all maps, farming for months, you will be very weak and can merely join picked-up T1?

    Please SSG, AT LEAST DO NOT LET THIS HAPPENED TOO CRUEL.


    I left RIFT for Trion just milking people's money and made the game worse and worse. I do not want to witness these happened on LOTRO. Or this will be an end for my 8-years journey.

  2. #2

    Very over exaggerated

    These new Virtues are hardly a game changer at all, you could do t3 without any virtues slotted if you wished. So saying how you will not be able to join and struggle with t1's is a joke.
    Wapow -Evernight

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpnut View Post
    These new Virtues are hardly a game changer at all, you could do t3 without any virtues slotted if you wished. So saying how you will not be able to join and struggle with t1's is a joke.
    And for T4/T5/T6?

    If virtues are vitally required, why people will bring a 'non-virtued' character?

  4. #4
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    There must be done some changes to reduce the grind.
    1. ad the 1000 exp per deed to all virtues.
    2. reduce the numbers of tartgets to slay per deed
    3. 100 exp per deed is to little 3000 would be a better value
    4. already maxed virtues should stay maxed the others should have the same strength percentagewise. e.g now you´re at 7/21 you schuold be at 20/60.

    Furthermore it´s bad that some virtues as zeal get a basic change from a defensive one to an offensive one. Many player need to grind a new one to max level.

    But the best would be stay at the current system just ad 1 or 2 ranks which douple the value of the stats.

    The only good thing is that you exchanged senseless stats ocmr/ocpr etc to something usefull.

    At the end I want to say that you should warn that the virtues of the other traitlines aren´t set anymore.

  5. #5
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    I don't see how it's pay to win when it's essentially an expanded/enhanced form of the existing system, which required a fair bit of grinding already. The stats are better and more useful, sure, but not significantly different to what we currently have. You also easily earn these in game, with so many deeds available, a chunk of which are mostly completed with normal levelling.

    While arguably they've made this more of a grind by offering us many more levels and increasing the value of unslotted Virtues (not a bad thing, imo, given most players picked the same 5 Virtues all the time), they've also made it significantly handier to level those Virtues up by letting us earn Virtue xp from relevant deeds. This means we don't have to go back to grind specific, perhaps tedious, deeds, and we continue to get rewarded for completing Virtue deeds that normally would give us another useless level on our capped Virtue.

    I also don't see a problem with any future tier 4, 5 or 6 content requiring players to invest more in their characters to complete. This is not a whole lot different to grinding gear, etc., except Virtues are permanent.

    -Bel
    Belnavar - Captain - 120 - Brandywine

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belnavar View Post
    I don't see how it's pay to win when it's essentially an expanded/enhanced form of the existing system, which required a fair bit of grinding already. The stats are better and more useful, sure, but not significantly different to what we currently have. You also easily earn these in game, with so many deeds available, a chunk of which are mostly completed with normal levelling.

    While arguably they've made this more of a grind by offering us many more levels and increasing the value of unslotted Virtues (not a bad thing, imo, given most players picked the same 5 Virtues all the time), they've also made it significantly handier to level those Virtues up by letting us earn Virtue xp from relevant deeds. This means we don't have to go back to grind specific, perhaps tedious, deeds, and we continue to get rewarded for completing Virtue deeds that normally would give us another useless level on our capped Virtue.

    I also don't see a problem with any future tier 4, 5 or 6 content requiring players to invest more in their characters to complete. This is not a whole lot different to grinding gear, etc., except Virtues are permanent.

    -Bel
    Well it increased the grind out of two reason.
    1. With the change you need all on maxrank cause of the passive. half of the virtues add around 500 morale per virtue the other half 500 mastery per virtue. This is a huge bonus.
    2. With the current system you´ve to complete 1 deed for one rank with the changes it´s around 1.5 deeds for one rank.
    3. Some players have to grind complete new virtues cause some as zeal got changed in their basic from a defensive one to an offensive one.

    All in all everyone must do all deeds this is insane.

  7. #7
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    If I'm understanding correctly, virtues can still be earned, I'm not following on what the issue is? I've always maintained my primary toons at max level virtues, for the virtues I use that is.
    .

    I bring word from Lord Elrond of Rivendell. An Alliance once existed between Elves and Men. Long ago we fought and died together. We come to honor that allegiance.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    Well it increased the grind out of two reason.
    1. With the change you need all on maxrank cause of the passive. half of the virtues add around 500 morale per virtue the other half 500 mastery per virtue. This is a huge bonus.
    2. With the current system you´ve to complete 1 deed for one rank with the changes it´s around 1.5 deeds for one rank.
    3. Some players have to grind complete new virtues cause some as zeal got changed in their basic from a defensive one to an offensive one.

    All in all everyone must do all deeds this is insane.
    All valid points, and without question this is more of a grind than before.

    1. I'm not sure I agree that those are "huge" passive bonuses when we're talking 60 ranks, especially when characters have 150-300k+ morale at 120. Sure, they're nice, and they'll certainly make a difference, particularly for the lower morale classes, but I don't think it's so big that they'll be essential. We'll also get chunks of these values from just normal levelling content (many deeds are completed naturally), so I'd say at least 20-30 of those ranks are not really grinded. These rest, however, are a definite grind, just like current slayer deeds are.

    2. Right, but I think that's just at the higher levels. I think the lower ranks are 1k xp each, and deeds give typically 1k xp, but sometimes 2k. If we number crunch, however, we likely have to complete more deeds to get fully capped, but the tradeoff is that we can choose the deeds we want (well, any that award virtue xp).

    3. That's true, and that's a versioning issue. Ideally we'd get our current stats converted into virtue xp consumables that we could spend on our chosen traits to help ease us into this new system.

    One other bonus of the new system I forgot to mention is the fact that these are now tied to our trait lines, so we can swap setups and have DPS virtues (which we didn't really have before) for our DPS build, defensive ones for our tank builds, etc. Having these swap automatically with the trait lines is a big plus.

    So, basically, Virtues are more valuable now, and it's partly (and yes, only partly) because of that increased value that we naturally get increased grind (as we don't grind things of low/no value).

    -Bel
    Belnavar - Captain - 120 - Brandywine

  9. #9
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    Here's a question for the nay sayer's, what system do you propose? My only hope is that there's no way to buy these, likely not the case, but one can hope.
    .

    I bring word from Lord Elrond of Rivendell. An Alliance once existed between Elves and Men. Long ago we fought and died together. We come to honor that allegiance.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belnavar View Post
    All valid points, and without question this is more of a grind than before.

    1. I'm not sure I agree that those are "huge" passive bonuses when we're talking 60 ranks, especially when characters have 150-300k+ morale at 120. Sure, they're nice, and they'll certainly make a difference, particularly for the lower morale classes, but I don't think it's so big that they'll be essential. We'll also get chunks of these values from just normal levelling content (many deeds are completed naturally), so I'd say at least 20-30 of those ranks are not really grinded. These rest, however, are a definite grind, just like current slayer deeds are.

    2. Right, but I think that's just at the higher levels. I think the lower ranks are 1k xp each, and deeds give typically 1k xp, but sometimes 2k. If we number crunch, however, we likely have to complete more deeds to get fully capped, but the tradeoff is that we can choose the deeds we want (well, any that award virtue xp).

    3. That's true, and that's a versioning issue. Ideally we'd get our current stats converted into virtue xp consumables that we could spend on our chosen traits to help ease us into this new system.

    One other bonus of the new system I forgot to mention is the fact that these are now tied to our trait lines, so we can swap setups and have DPS virtues (which we didn't really have before) for our DPS build, defensive ones for our tank builds, etc. Having these swap automatically with the trait lines is a big plus.

    So, basically, Virtues are more valuable now, and it's partly (and yes, only partly) because of that increased value that we naturally get increased grind (as we don't grind things of low/no value).

    -Bel
    Cause atm the offensive are used. Even dpser take the defensive one to be a bit more surv Especially they get for dpser a higher win.

    Quote Originally Posted by eanamdar View Post
    Here's a question for the nay sayer's, what system do you propose? My only hope is that there's no way to buy these, likely not the case, but one can hope.
    It should be at least buyabke if they don't change it that those who want can avoid the grind.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by eanamdar View Post
    Here's a question for the nay sayer's, what system do you propose? My only hope is that there's no way to buy these, likely not the case, but one can hope.
    No passive bonusses. Otherwise, the new system is fine. That way, it wouldnt even be required to be able to retrait virtues besides one initial retraiting after the systemchange. This totally needs to happen.

    Obviously, a virtue system that goes up to 60 while levelcap is 120 should be capped at current playerlevel/2 instead of maxlvl/2 to prevent OPness while leveling. Dunno if thats already implemented.

    Virtue rank scaling should be similar to gear level scaling with playerlevel. Dunno if thats already implemented.

    With old cap of playerlevel/5 and newcap playerlevel/2, each deed that previously granted one virtue rank should grant 2.5 ranks in the new system unless we have additional sources of virtue ranks like some ranks being granted automatically while leveling or something like that.
    Currently, I have no idea how it works, but when players report that current rank 30 of max 20 (which should be max24) translates to new 56 of 60 and deeds only give less than one rank, then something is weird with the new system.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    No passive bonusses. Otherwise, the new system is fine. That way, it wouldnt even be required to be able to retrait virtues besides one initial retraiting after the systemchange. This totally needs to happen.

    Obviously, a virtue system that goes up to 60 while levelcap is 120 should be capped at current playerlevel/2 instead of maxlvl/2 to prevent OPness while leveling. Dunno if thats already implemented.

    Virtue rank scaling should be similar to gear level scaling with playerlevel. Dunno if thats already implemented.

    With old cap of playerlevel/5 and newcap playerlevel/2, each deed that previously granted one virtue rank should grant 2.5 ranks in the new system unless we have additional sources of virtue ranks like some ranks being granted automatically while leveling or something like that.
    Currently, I have no idea how it works, but when players report that current rank 30 of max 20 (which should be max24) translates to new 56 of 60 and deeds only give less than one rank, then something is weird with the new system.
    Most of what you're saying makes sense, but I don't follow the issue with passives. Virtues have always been 100% passive.
    .

    I bring word from Lord Elrond of Rivendell. An Alliance once existed between Elves and Men. Long ago we fought and died together. We come to honor that allegiance.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by eanamdar View Post
    Most of what you're saying makes sense, but I don't follow the issue with passives. Virtues have always been 100% passive.
    I believe the concern is this change:

    All virtues now offer an additional passive bonus, allowing you to benefit from your earned virtues even when that virtue is not actively slotted.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhisperOfLeaves View Post
    Is it means without purchased all maps, farming for months, you will be very weak and can merely join picked-up T1?

    Please SSG, AT LEAST DO NOT LET THIS HAPPENED TOO CRUEL.

    I left RIFT for Trion just milking people's money and made the game worse and worse. I do not want to witness these happened on LOTRO. Or this will be an end for my 8-years journey.
    You've been playing for 8 years and you think you'll have trouble joining a PUG t1 group next update?

    I think virtues should be the least of your concerns, if that's the case.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by eanamdar View Post
    Most of what you're saying makes sense, but I don't follow the issue with passives. Virtues have always been 100% passive.
    What the new passive bonus means is:
    originally we received stats only from the slotted/equipped (active) virtues(5).
    unslotted virtues provided nothing.
    Now we receive stats from both the slotted(5) and unslotted virtues(16). The unslotted add a small additional amount of stats and since they are not slotted(active), they are considered passive.
    Last edited by KM3161; May 15 2019 at 04:04 PM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by KM3161 View Post
    What the new passive bonus means is:
    originally we received stats only from the slotted/equipped (active) virtues(5).
    unslotted virtues provided nothing.
    Now we receive stats from both the slotted(5) and unslotted virtues(16). The unslotted add a small additional amount of stats and since they are not slotted(active), they are considered passive.
    Small is relative they add either around 500 morale or 500 masterys.
    Depending Ob which you've slotted you get 4k morale or masterys.

  17. #17
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    You actually get the passive bonus from all 21 virtues, not just those equiped and the passives ones don't even get scaled down. It's kinda ridiculous. Just seen a lvl 19 character with 12k morale...

    Also if you could fix the bug with some characters holding their swords like axes instead. Well, they actually not even holding it. One hand on the shard end and the other floating in the air...
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by RicoFTW View Post
    You actually get the passive bonus from all 21 virtues, not just those equiped and the passives ones don't even get scaled down. It's kinda ridiculous. Just seen a lvl 19 character with 12k morale...

    Also if you could fix the bug with some characters holding their swords like axes instead. Well, they actually not even holding it. One hand on the shard end and the other floating in the air...
    That might have been me, I've been experimenting with the virtue system with a lvl 19 dwarf i copied over.
    Originally he had 3000 morale and 1k Phy.mastery.
    after using EnG to raise the virtues, he now has 11996 morale and over 8k Phy.mastery.
    Seems to me that equipped virtues scale to the correct level but the unequipped passives aren't capped at correct level.

    I won't buy the virtues from the store, but if they are available then i think some players will buy them to seriously OP their little characters, unless they properly scale the passive bonuses.


    at least so far the passives are placeholders, and subject to change.
    Last edited by KM3161; May 15 2019 at 06:59 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    Small is relative they add either around 500 morale or 500 masterys.
    Depending Ob which you've slotted you get 4k morale or masterys.
    The passive bonus numbers are placeholders. They are more then likely to change before it hits live

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by eanamdar View Post
    Here's a question for the nay sayer's, what system do you propose? My only hope is that there's no way to buy these, likely not the case, but one can hope.
    I propose a system that's otherwise much like the one we currently have, but from now on we get trait points which we can spend on any virtue we want. And as someone said, if you want to make the virtues more "relevant" then raise the cap by 5 levels or so and double the stats. That's literally all you need to do, if your intention is truly out of love for the game to make virtues more meaningful and aquairing them less tedious and arbitrary. But that's not the point of this revamp. I think the fact that they're going for the XP system instead of a trait point system already gives their long term intentions away: just give it a few updates, you will see the XP requirements go up, and there will be a new "Tome of Virtue XP" or something like that you can buy from the store for the low, low price of 195 LP.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by NonHyperHamster View Post
    I propose a system that's otherwise much like the one we currently have, but from now on we get trait points which we can spend on any virtue we want. And as someone said, if you want to make the virtues more "relevant" then raise the cap by 5 levels or so and double the stats. That's literally all you need to do, if your intention is truly out of love for the game to make virtues more meaningful and aquairing them less tedious and arbitrary. But that's not the point of this revamp. I think the fact that they're going for the XP system instead of a trait point system already gives their long term intentions away: just give it a few updates, you will see the XP requirements go up, and there will be a new "Tome of Virtue XP" or something like that you can buy from the store for the low, low price of 195 LP.
    Nothing against the idea of the system. The grind behind is bad and must become reduced.
    1k exp per deed you need 1.5k for a rank up. You don't need only five virtues anymore you need nearly All maxed cause of the passive. And even for the five main some have to grind New cause soem as zeal are changed in their basic from a defensive one to an offensive.
    If they would reduce the grind with reducing/half the number of targets to slay per deed, give the 1000k per deed toball virtues not just one choosen or add least give 3k expnper deed and exp for killing mops and completung quest it would be ok but so as it is it's an insane grind of which we've already to much in the game.

  22. #22
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    And for the "placeholder" it only means you get in the beta no win of it.
    No idea if they change the stats or not. I would guess not.
    To the passives +723 Morale or +1031 tac and phy mas.
    14 virtues with max morale passive and 7 with the masteries.
    If I understood it correctly. The five choosen don´t give the passive.
    With the win if you don´t want to go full classcanon everyone will take defensive virtues.
    So we got 9*723=6507 morale and 7217 masteries. I won´t call it a small bonus.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    And for the "placeholder" it only means you get in the beta no win of it.
    Not sure what that means, but placeholder means the numbers you see on beta for the passives arnt the correct numbers the devs want to use there. The just put in some numbers to see if the passive system was working and they intend to put in the real values when they figure out what those are. In the patch notes they even said they know the numbers are not correct and they will be changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordOfTheSquids View Post
    Known Issue:
    • Please note that passive bonuses from virtues are currently using placeholder values.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    No idea if they change the stats or not. I would guess not.
    Given the fact that the devs themselves said the values are not correct, why do you think they wont be changed.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkcraft27 View Post
    Not sure what that means, but placeholder means the numbers you see on beta for the passives arnt the correct numbers the devs want to use there. The just put in some numbers to see if the passive system was working and they intend to put in the real values when they figure out what those are. In the patch notes they even said they know the numbers are not correct and they will be changed.




    Given the fact that the devs themselves said the values are not correct, why do you think they wont be changed.
    a placeholder is something you can already read but no fuction is behind it. So we get an expression what awaits usbut it´s not implemented

 

 

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