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  1. #1
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    Cappy Marks Proposed Change

    Hey all

    So I've been doing a lot of thinking about cappy and how it could be changed with the rumoured cappy update it looks like we are getting this summer. There are some serious issues such as their healing that other people go more in depth on in other threads but I wanted to toss an idea for how to change how cappy marks work. Couple issues this aims to address...
    -Revealing mark is a bit OP to have, ateast for red/yellow line. I think just about everyone is on board with that notion.
    -Revealing and Telling mark alone carry too much weight for deciding group compositions
    -Noble mark is kinda meh, will touch on that more down below.

    So here is what I suggest, depending on what line you specialize in, you automatically get a mark that can be upgraded via a capstone trait. I will break down more of it afterwards

    When you are specced red
    -Increase incoming damage to the marked target by 5%
    -5% of damage dealt to the marked target is returned as heals
    -Red line receives a new additional capstone trait that would buff its mark by increasing the incoming damage by 2%

    When you are specced yellow
    -5% of damage dealt to the marked target is returned as heals
    -Every time the cappy attacks the marked target they are healed for 1% of their max morale
    -Yellow line receives a new additional capstone trait that increases the max morale heal by 1% to a total of 2%

    When you are specced blue
    -10% of damage dealt to the marked target is returned as heals
    -Blue line receives a new additional capstone trait that increases the damage returned as heals by 5% to a total of 15%

    So my overall goal is to mainly nerf revealing mark, obviously, but also that mark, with how strong it is, carries so much determining weight with it when building a group for content, that's why I believe all lines should inherently get it just at a lesser value when you are red or yellow. Some may argue that 5% is still too much and that is a perfectly fine statement, make it 3% or 2% or what not for red/yellow line. You then give each of those lines their own unique thing that already exists in addition to the revealing mark. Now blue line maintains a stronger revealing mark, same as it is right now if you get the capstone, but I believe that is fine given the recent changes to capstone traits. If the cappy is speccing blue then they can not get oathbreakers anymore, sure they could get the dps banner I suppose but they will be missing out on a lot of other red line stuff, not the best "hybrid" build for a support captain in my opinion. I believe we will find that a red line cappy with its much weaker revealing mark will still do just fine, my perfect vision of captain is that is AOE healing in red line gets boosted a good amount so that it can do some healing in addition to revealing mark to keep themselves and dps alive. Then when the cappy goes blue to try healing a 6man or maybe even be a off healer in a raid, it gets the stronger revealing mark with hopefully boosted single target heals so it can actually heal a tank.

    Now this would also warrant the marks not being stackable. When a new captain mark is applied it would override any existing marks, some may be deterred from this suggestion purely because of that but I do not believe it will kill the classes possibility of having 2 in a raid by any means. There are still a multitude of fights you could easily have 2 marks flying around such as boss 1-3 (phase 2 in boss 3) of Anvil.

    There are some other notes I would like to make as well.
    -Yellow line mark is a little meh. Perhaps we could see the yellow line mark get changed completely. One idea that was given to me was to have it reduce the bosses damage, even by a mere 1-2% with a 1-2% upgrade from capstone trait. I think this would be a bit much when we already have so many other damage reductions out there (Guard warchant, Burg disables, LM lores, Champ aggresive exchange and horn etc etc) but perhaps the mark could reduce the damage the marked target does towards the captain and the captain's shield brother. 4% damage reduction with another 4% from the capstone. I think this would be a bit more sane of a change and desirable, also would be building into a later note I will make.
    -Blue line mark I believe should be 10% by default but perhaps the upgrade from capstone is not additional healing directly. Maybe all attacks that hit the marked target have a 20% change to give the attacker a +15% incoming healing buff for 15s. This would be very useful for helping captains get better at healing tanks, your tank could get this buff up on him regularly while you are healing him in a 6man (or raid) and make it easier to keep himself alive. Not to mention the dps would be getting stronger heals from you but the 10% revealing mark would already be taking care of them most likely
    -Red line capstone trait line could also do something other than just pure damage increase. Perhaps it gave attacks a chance to increase the attackers critical rating by 3% for 15s? Just an idea

    "Okay, revealing mark needs a nerf we get that and all trait lines getting some version of it would make 2 cappies less desirable, but why? Raids having 2 cappies most of the time seems just fine with people, whats the need to take it a step further outside of nerfing revealing mark?"
    Good question, and the answer is simple, the option for different raid groups. My raid group has already messed with chanks/bear tanks in T2 of the raid often. They would also work pretty well in some T3 fights as well no doubt, but each time we bring one of them they are replacing the captain tank because more than not a guard is the main tank for the purpose of how tanky a guard is simply, and when we do that we really feel the lack of both telling/revealing. Its almost always telling that is missing because we have the red cappy put up revealing (because that mark is OP), so if we get revealing in all lines while red line maintains their extra damage spice, that rather viable argument for 2 cappies is out the window and groups can see other tanks fill the offtank position. They all bring their own little knicknacks, bear is good at increasing damage and lots of back up taunts, chanks has horn and aggressive exchange (yes I know dps champs can get that, but they can also get more dps traits), and cappy tank (this is where I was referencing above about the new yellow mark) provides a lot of tankiness for the guard. Bring a bear for more dps, chank for fun/boss debuffs for the raid, and cappy tank for buffing the guard. And we could do that easily right now in Anvil for the fights but man we want that revealing mark and that telling mark. So my proposal fixes that. (Yes I did not mention warden tank because that tank is in a weird spot where most issues seem to lie with the content, not the class specifically)

    Some may argue that this makes the clas less diversified between its trait lines and I would say, yeah sure I guess in a way, but I would also say the point is that good because each line still gets their own unique enhancement on the base 5% revealing mark. Red still gets its dps increase, yellow their noble mark (or decreased damage mark, Im really liking that the more I think about it), and blue gets their boosted revealing mark to do, well, blue line stuff like healing. The capstone traits would also aid in making that trait lines mark unique

    Perhaps the revealing mark in red/yellow should be weaker than 5%, perhaps you like noble mark and disagree with me on it, whatever it may be drop a comment below with suggestions/support/disagreement.

    If you read this Vastin, mind dropping any hints on when we are expecting our next class update? Will it be rk or cappy next? Is there work still being done on burg perhaps? Waiting for the Vales to get released before more class work? Cheers!
    Lvl 120 Guard - Olebenny || Lvl 120 Guard - Theoderad || Lvl 120 Guard - Estelrian || Lvl 120 Runekeeper - Leegun || Lvl 120 Mini - Nathorean || Lvl 120 Champion - Cephrial
    Leader of Raiders Beneath the Shadow - Arkenstone
    What more does one need in LotRO than a lot of morale and a shield?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Olebenny View Post
    So here is what I suggest, depending on what line you specialize in, you automatically get a mark that can be upgraded via a capstone trait. I will break down more of it afterwards

    When you are specced red
    -Increase incoming damage to the marked target by 5%
    -5% of damage dealt to the marked target is returned as heals
    -Red line receives a new additional capstone trait that would buff its mark by increasing the incoming damage by 2%
    Unless you failed to mention that the healing return is only for the captain himself, this is totally unnecessary and would only continue to propagate the crutch that Captain group healing is based on. If Red captains need to provide significant group healing, make it happen through significantly buffing/changing Inspire, Rallying Cry and Gallant Display. Not by applying some boring mark to a target.

    When you are specced blue
    -10% of damage dealt to the marked target is returned as heals
    -Blue line receives a new additional capstone trait that increases the damage returned as heals by 5% to a total of 15%
    So first you agree that Revealing Mark is too strong, but then you want to keep it exactly the same for blue line? Why? It would be broken for exactly the same reasons. This ability needs to undergo major changes, regardless of the trait line that has access to it.

    So my overall goal is to mainly nerf revealing mark, obviously, but also that mark, with how strong it is, carries so much determining weight with it when building a group for content, that's why I believe all lines should inherently get it just at a lesser value when you are red or yellow. Some may argue that 5% is still too much and that is a perfectly fine statement, make it 3% or 2% or what not for red/yellow line. You then give each of those lines their own unique thing that already exists in addition to the revealing mark. Now blue line maintains a stronger revealing mark, same as it is right now if you get the capstone, but I believe that is fine given the recent changes to capstone traits. If the cappy is speccing blue then they can not get oathbreakers anymore, sure they could get the dps banner I suppose but they will be missing out on a lot of other red line stuff, not the best "hybrid" build for a support captain in my opinion. I believe we will find that a red line cappy with its much weaker revealing mark will still do just fine, my perfect vision of captain is that is AOE healing in red line gets boosted a good amount so that it can do some healing in addition to revealing mark to keep themselves and dps alive. Then when the cappy goes blue to try healing a 6man or maybe even be a off healer in a raid, it gets the stronger revealing mark with hopefully boosted single target heals so it can actually heal a tank.
    None of these activities should make you rely on a crutch. I do not understand why you have written this entire post with the mindset that the morale return on damage should somehow continue to exist. Let alone for every trait line. It's poor design. It's boring. It reduces the skill cap of the class. Get rid of it.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
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  3. #3
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    The thing is... The way the game works needs to change before changing captain marks will even matter. (I do like the idea of gating each mark behind speccing into that tree specifically though).

    We currently operate in an environment in which we have the following;

    Either DPSers get one-shotted by stupid-### mechanics throughout the raid, referring primarily to frost-grims, and random one-shots from the worms, however a loss of agro also generally means a dead dpser at any point too. Or the damage taken is almost immediately recuperated by overpowered bear heals + revealing mark.

    The fact that a beorning can heal both groups in a raid removes any necessity to put a healer into the dps group, and revealing mark removes that need even more so, but the problem is.. What aspect do you change?

    I completely disagree with allowing all 3 marks to return morale on damage, that is stupid AF, especially when you generally have two captains, essentially taking you from 15% morale returned to 20% or more. We want revealing mark to be nerfed and with the nerf to boost the raw-healing of captains actual skills. I was under the impression Vastin didn't want it to be the case where a class is taken so that they can just use 1-2 skills and then go afk (see Dev comments on burglar) despite that not actually being the case, that's what it can feel like.

    I feel like yellow line captains need a bit of an overhaul altogether - starting with making it so grave wound cannot be avoided whilst in yellow, but I like the idea of increasing the morale returned on hits with noble mark for the captain, but adding the same effect as revealing mark on each mark - an absolute no go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olebenny View Post
    Then when the cappy goes blue to try healing a 6man or maybe even be a off healer in a raid, it gets the stronger revealing mark with hopefully boosted single target heals so it can actually heal a tank.
    It is also currently perfectly possible for a captain to heal the 6man on tier3, and to at least heal the raid in tier2. My Captain is outputting 50-80k HPS and doing over 100k Rallying Cries in blue, the problem is the sporadic nature of RC, where heals can range from 10k to over 100k... And a somewhat lack of single target healing.
    Last edited by Hephburz-2; May 11 2019 at 10:58 PM.

  4. #4
    I'll reply later today to this thread, I did read some weird things, but will see later.
    WhiteGoliath

  5. #5
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    Us planning to work on Captain is not a rumor, although we do not have any kind of ETA to announce. Thanks for the feedback so far!
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    Unless you failed to mention that the healing return is only for the captain himself, this is totally unnecessary and would only continue to propagate the crutch that Captain group healing is based on. If Red captains need to provide significant group healing, make it happen through significantly buffing/changing Inspire, Rallying Cry and Gallant Display. Not by applying some boring mark to a target.
    I fail to see the reasoning behind this comment, I 100% agree, but I believe revealing mark should still be an arsenal of the captain but not as strong as it is to any degree unless the cappy is speccing blue line, aka, losing its red spec damage buffs for the group and oathbreakers. Hefty tradeoffs just to get a full version of revealing mark up. Maybe you would see it as an offhealer in addition to a mini but I figured if that was the case, lots of cappy players would be happy being a real off-healer in a raid setting. Getting their heals buffed and being able to do more than 0 heals single target to a tank :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    So first you agree that Revealing Mark is too strong, but then you want to keep it exactly the same for blue line? Why? It would be broken for exactly the same reasons. This ability needs to undergo major changes, regardless of the trait line that has access to it.
    It would not be, you are misunderstanding, read the above. Cappy speccing blue loses a lot, sure revealing mark is quite strong, but its the fact the dps can be kept so easily alive via it while getting the full arsenal of a red cappy that puts in absurdity power. Therefore significantly nerf it for red/yellow line but keep it the same or maybe a tad lower (but still stronger than it's red/yellow counterpart) when the cappy is giving up on these other great buffs. And the reason I would like to see some form of it kept for red/yellow instead of offing it completely is for the reasons I gave about raiding/building a raid group. I dont believe it will have much to any impact on solo stuff no matter what happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    None of these activities should make you rely on a crutch. I do not understand why you have written this entire post with the mindset that the morale return on damage should somehow continue to exist. Let alone for every trait line. It's poor design. It's boring. It reduces the skill cap of the class. Get rid of it.
    Guess we just agree to disagree here, but I would rather meet in the middle where the return aspect of it still exists, but cappy healing itself is buffed for all lines to compensate and up the skill level of the class. But keeping red/yellow nerfed enough to require skill but keeping the blue revealing mark still somewhat strong and making blue cappy able to keep a tank alive that isn't 100% kiting and pulling off shenanigans in 6mans like other healers are able to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    I completely disagree with allowing all 3 marks to return morale on damage, that is stupid AF, especially when you generally have two captains, essentially taking you from 15% morale returned to 20% or more.
    Thats not at all what I proposed. I suggest not allowing marks to stack, therefor you could only get the 15% if a blue cappy is in the raid and gets the capstone. Otherwise you will get at max 10% on a boss from a cappy specced blue and traiting deep into red but still not being able to get their oathies. Or you more realistically get 5%(or less, I am 100% for an even lower return if its thought to be needed) from a red or yellow cappy with increased healing abilities from the cappy itself

    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Either DPSers get one-shotted by stupid-### mechanics throughout the raid, referring primarily to frost-grims, and random one-shots from the worms, however a loss of agro also generally means a dead dpser at any point too. Or the damage taken is almost immediately recuperated by overpowered bear heals + revealing mark.
    I agree to an extent that yes raid mechanics changing would be nice, but that is a whole other discussion on its own, im just focusing here on this mark idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Us planning to work on Captain is not a rumor, although we do not have any kind of ETA to announce. Thanks for the feedback so far!
    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    Class Balance

    With the recent updates to Minstrel, and with an update to Burglar on the way, many classes will have received their initial balance pass. Although this is a good start, we want to continue to work on class balance with updates, bug fixes, and tweaks throughout the year. We will continue to base that balance work on your feedback in addition to our own internal testing, and we intend to improve this feedback process this year and beyond. We have plans for Rune Keeper and Captain, though our goal for the future is to be able to add small changes to several classes at a time, rather than implementing a large number of changes for a single class. Sev~
    Im excited to some new changes, as long as they arent complete garbo of course. New stuff is fun, thanks for the comment Cord, hope we get more info soon!
    Lvl 120 Guard - Olebenny || Lvl 120 Guard - Theoderad || Lvl 120 Guard - Estelrian || Lvl 120 Runekeeper - Leegun || Lvl 120 Mini - Nathorean || Lvl 120 Champion - Cephrial
    Leader of Raiders Beneath the Shadow - Arkenstone
    What more does one need in LotRO than a lot of morale and a shield?

  7. #7
    so cappy has the majority of damaging skills on long cd, super slow animation when it poses after each swing, lacking/(low) dps, unreliabe self-heals outside of blue mark, long cd on mobs for OB, long cd on Muster courage/RC/WoC, low hot-component on heals/inspire and the only suggestion is to break the class further by changing blue/red marks?

  8. #8
    I think they should just replace revealing mark effect entirely with something else. you can literally ignore so many mechanics, go full glass in raid/pve content without worrying about anything just because you know you will always be at full health as long as dpsing which is very ridiculous. even if it was in blue spec only. i'd rather buff other captain's heals rather than it become a 1 skill line just exactly like blue RK before the fates nerf.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorri_Hammerfist View Post
    so cappy has the majority of damaging skills on long cd, super slow animation when it poses after each swing, lacking/(low) dps, unreliabe self-heals outside of blue mark, long cd on mobs for OB, long cd on Muster courage/RC/WoC, low hot-component on heals/inspire and the only suggestion is to break the class further by changing blue/red marks?
    Yeah is there a problem with this? Your comment adds nothing worth while to this thread. I posted this just to throw an idea out and get people's minds working. I dont know enough to talk about animations or stuff like that. OB changes imo are fine for the raiding spectrum, I would have prefered a simple removal of all the set bonuses that reset the CD but Im chill with what we got. I actually do say heals should increase/stuff should be done about that, perhaps read the comments fully

    This what I proposed, so feedback should focus on that, create another thread for the other stuff if you want, and also explain why it breaks the class further please, simply saying it does is not constructive
    Lvl 120 Guard - Olebenny || Lvl 120 Guard - Theoderad || Lvl 120 Guard - Estelrian || Lvl 120 Runekeeper - Leegun || Lvl 120 Mini - Nathorean || Lvl 120 Champion - Cephrial
    Leader of Raiders Beneath the Shadow - Arkenstone
    What more does one need in LotRO than a lot of morale and a shield?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Olebenny View Post
    I fail to see the reasoning behind this comment, I 100% agree, but I believe revealing mark should still be an arsenal of the captain but not as strong as it is to any degree unless the cappy is speccing blue line, aka, losing its red spec damage buffs for the group and oathbreakers. Hefty tradeoffs just to get a full version of revealing mark up. Maybe you would see it as an offhealer in addition to a mini but I figured if that was the case, lots of cappy players would be happy being a real off-healer in a raid setting. Getting their heals buffed and being able to do more than 0 heals single target to a tank :P
    This is already off to a very strange start. You fail to see the reasoning, but you 100% agree? Alright. Well, regardless, let's look at how this would play out. Revealing Mark is the largest part of a blue captain's healing, by far. Blue line has a plethora of actual healing abilities that require an active rotation. The class would be much more engaging if those were made meaningful, instead of some boring, passive mark on the main target. Revealing Mark is currently just incredibly poorly designed. It facilitates a lazy playstyle, and makes the actual healing abilities feel meaningless in comparison to it.
    For that reason, Revealing Mark should be re-designed, not also for blue line, but especially for blue line.

    It would not be, you are misunderstanding, read the above. Cappy speccing blue loses a lot, sure revealing mark is quite strong, but its the fact the dps can be kept so easily alive via it while getting the full arsenal of a red cappy that puts in absurdity power. Therefore significantly nerf it for red/yellow line but keep it the same or maybe a tad lower (but still stronger than it's red/yellow counterpart) when the cappy is giving up on these other great buffs. And the reason I would like to see some form of it kept for red/yellow instead of offing it completely is for the reasons I gave about raiding/building a raid group. I dont believe it will have much to any impact on solo stuff no matter what happens.
    I did not misunderstand you at all. You said you want to keep Revealing Mark at 15% for blue line. Period. This means you would mitigate the problem for red line and yellow line, but keep it unchanged for blue line. Blue line is a healing line, and its healing should be balanced around its active abilities such as Valiant Strike, Rallying Cry, Words of Courage, Inspire, Gallant Display and Standard of Honour. It shouldn't rely on a crutch like Revealing Mark to be relevant.
    On the other hand, scaling all these active abilities while keeping Revealing Mark as it, as you proposed, would simply eliminate any need for healing in the DPS group, just by virtue of having a blue captain in the tank group. This is also poor design. It's obvious that Revealing Mark leads to very imbalanced scenarios, such as the one that is in place currently, where any kind of raid damage is easily mitigated by the red captain, who doesn't even have to put in any effort to do so. Get rid of it, for every trait line. The concept is outdated.

    Guess we just agree to disagree here, but I would rather meet in the middle where the return aspect of it still exists, but cappy healing itself is buffed for all lines to compensate and up the skill level of the class. But keeping red/yellow nerfed enough to require skill but keeping the blue revealing mark still somewhat strong and making blue cappy able to keep a tank alive that isn't 100% kiting and pulling off shenanigans in 6mans like other healers are able to do.
    You don't seem to realise that the vast majority of Revealing Mark healing is overhealing. Even 5% would be incredibly potent. With DPS in T3 doing anywhere from 100k DPS on boss 4, to 200k+ on boss 2 and 3, 5% would still mean 5k-10k HPS per DPS. I'm not sure how much clearer it could be that the concept of this ability in fundamentally imbalanced, and needs to be scrapped from the class design. It could be easily replaced with something that is also meaningful, and to compensate, the captain's active healing abilities would be substantially increased.
    In that scenario, a red captain could still support the DPS group with off-healing, good captains would have a more meaningful way of distinguishing themselves, and we wouldn't have a scenario where healing the DPS group is completely trivial. Everything is in favour of what I am suggesting here. Holding on to the concept of Revealing Mark, just for the sake of it, is very short sighted.

    It's clear that you enjoy the captain class, so I hope you can take my explanation on board and re-consider your stance on this.

    PS. The trade-off for going blue line isn't actually as significant as you might think. Given that everyone can cap their mastery and crit, the red line tactics aren't that meaningful. If blue line became the new meta, DPS'ers would account for that, and blue line would provide nearly the same support as red line. The only difference would be Oathbreakers. Instead, blue line gets a meaningful -5% attack duration on its tactics, and Inspiriting Presence for an RK in the raid. For sure, this would be a noticable trade-off to make. But other than that, the support remain essentially the same.
    Last edited by Aeviternus; May 31 2019 at 08:29 AM.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
    Also known as Giliodor

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    You don't seem to realise that the vast majority of Revealing Mark healing is overhealing. Even 5% would be incredibly potent. With DPS in T3 doing anywhere from 100k DPS on boss 4, to 200k+ on boss 2 and 3, 5% would still mean 5k-10k HPS per DPS. I'm not sure how much clearer it could be that the concept of this ability in fundamentally imbalanced, and needs to be scrapped from the class design. It could be easily replaced with something that is also meaningful, and to compensate, the captain's active healing abilities would be substantially increased.
    In that scenario, a red captain could still support the DPS group with off-healing, good captains would have a more meaningful way of distinguishing themselves, and we wouldn't have a scenario where healing the DPS group is completely trivial. Everything is in favour of what I am suggesting here. Holding on to the concept of Revealing Mark, just for the sake of it, is very short sighted.
    ^^^ basically this. the morale return aspect is just very poor for the general gameplay. and yes even 5% is still very strong, try to do the raid with a LM nature's spirit buff - 5% damage return- and don't use revealing mark, you will barely see any difference and all the dpsers will still always be at full health, taking any damage that doesn't one shot you, ignore any mechanics that doesn't 1 shot you just because simply with 2-3 skills you are back at full health again.
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  12. #12
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    This is good, im liking this, lets keep this discussion going, it expands a bit more outside of simply cappy revealing mark to general raid design.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    This is already off to a very strange start. You fail to see the reasoning, but you 100% agree?
    Ill take blame for that, confusion on my part it seems. I didnt agree that it "further propegates the crutch that Captain group healing is based on" (will touch on that later) and therefor thought that part of the comment was unnecessary, but did agree in the general idea you were talking about that captain healing needs to be more than revealing mark. Hope that is a bit more clear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    Blue line is a healing line, and its healing should be balanced around its active abilities such as Valiant Strike, Rallying Cry, Words of Courage, Inspire, Gallant Display and Standard of Honour. It shouldn't rely on a crutch like Revealing Mark to be relevant.
    Yes agreed, the class is the go to "stand here, put this mark on this target and hit this 1 skill when raid leader says to" and would be nice to have that skill level, or atleast the potential of the class, to be increased. Its not bad for games to have a simple class to play, I would go as far as to say its a necessity, even when looking at endgame raiding. But classes like RK/Hunter dps do a decent job fulfilling that role for LotRO and the captain class can be alot more interesting in red/blue line if changes like you mentioned were implemented.

    You have some other comments Im not gonna quote specifically cause they all generally point the same direction, get rid of revealing mark. So consider this next bit a reply to everything else you wrote

    Revealing marks goes poof with cappy update, sure, cool, raiding gets quite a bit different and so does the class, sounds like fun. But

    1)I dont think that will happen. That mark has been here for forever to a degree and I believe its just risen to the forefront of braindead cappying the last 2 level caps, especially here at 120. We had a set bonus from Throne that actually added 5% more to the mark, but that raid did not (in my memory, tell me different please if you think so) have the reliance on revealing mark like Anvil does. I remember still dying as an RK in Rakothas when a couple orcs would end up on me, champs died often as well if they pulled all the orcs and the healers were neglecting them (and champs were in a better spot at 105 than they are now). Mumaks, atleast the strat we ran, was far from relying on revealing mark. Vado was for sure a revealing mark reliance fight for the dps. UO sure wasn't. Nazguls were but it was practically a mechanic of the fight which I found to be very interesting, you would consider bringing warden tanks because they could outheal your mini via revealing mark because of that ICH debuff. And then Gothmog didnt face much AOE damage outside of Carn Dum room with all the adds, but another situation that I dont believe revealing mark was saving the champ who pulled everything or rk who accidentally combustioned. There is a comment above about how the raid for dps is just get 1 shot or easily heal the dps from revealing but that issue is not revealing mark alone, its raid design as well. All that considered and the fact the mark has been here for so long I really do not think we are seeing it vanish completely with cappy update.

    2)I'm holding on to it because I just dont agree it should be pulled all together. Nerf it, make the raids better that it isnt overpower, aka not hitting 1 big boss the entire time and easily healing yourself, constantly swapping to adds or have to physically move damper the impact of revealing mark heftily(Along with actual threatening steady aoe dps, not just 1 shot or not bursts from a boss). You see damage-returned-as-heals all over the place in video games, the concept of it can remain and be useful/not as braindead as it is. I.E. nazguls in Throne.

    So going back to my OG post, alot of the suggestions I give is for the sake of how much impact it has on forming raids as it stands now, yes I know how OP it is, I am very aware of the fact. I think it could be nerfed to a point that it is not OP and the future raids can hopefully not be so braindead to dps. If some form of revealing mark existed in all 3 lines for a cappy, the almost always prevalent situation of 2 cappies in a raid for both revealing and telling would hopefully vanish and we could potentially see group comps be more diverse with bear/champ tanks (or warden tanks, but yeah, thats not exactly the same thing, couple other issues there mainly revolving around, once again, raid design)

    If who ever does the cappy rework deicdes to pull revealing mark completely and makes a lot of changes to cappy healing, I will not cry any tears I promise. But should it remain I would like to see something along the lines of what I originally post in hope of accomplishing the reasons I gave for it.

    I await your response, Im reall enjoying this convo, and hope Vastin is watching or something. Get these ideas flowing before we get a "Hey heres a first glance at cappy changes" dropped on us
    Last edited by Olebenny; May 31 2019 at 05:41 PM.
    Lvl 120 Guard - Olebenny || Lvl 120 Guard - Theoderad || Lvl 120 Guard - Estelrian || Lvl 120 Runekeeper - Leegun || Lvl 120 Mini - Nathorean || Lvl 120 Champion - Cephrial
    Leader of Raiders Beneath the Shadow - Arkenstone
    What more does one need in LotRO than a lot of morale and a shield?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Olebenny View Post
    Ill take blame for that, confusion on my part it seems. I didnt agree that it "further propegates the crutch that Captain group healing is based on" (will touch on that later) and therefor thought that part of the comment was unnecessary, but did agree in the general idea you were talking about that captain healing needs to be more than revealing mark. Hope that is a bit more clear?
    It would be clear, if it wasn't for the fact that you later on concede that it is a crutch:
    Yes agreed, the class is the go to "stand here, put this mark on this target and hit this 1 skill when raid leader says to".
    This seems contradictory. You are not explicitly saying that it's a crutch, but you agree that it is the go-to class for pressing only two buttons to be useful. That is of course not entirely accurate, and more of a hyperbole, but you agree that these two abilities are indeed powerful enough on their own, to take a captain into the raid. Hence, a crutch.
    Since you indirectly agreed that it is a crutch, I do not understand why you're not in favour of removing it.


    Yes agreed, the class is the go to "stand here, put this mark on this target and hit this 1 skill when raid leader says to" and would be nice to have that skill level, or atleast the potential of the class, to be increased. Its not bad for games to have a simple class to play, I would go as far as to say its a necessity, even when looking at endgame raiding. But classes like RK/Hunter dps do a decent job fulfilling that role for LotRO and the captain class can be alot more interesting in red/blue line if changes like you mentioned were implemented.
    Min/maxing a captain is by no means simple. It is more difficult than for most classes, in fact. However, the result of an optimised DPS rotation in red line, or optimised healing in blue line, is so minimal, that it's not worth the effort. Why not? Because the main thing the captain brings to the table comes in the form of single button presses; To Arms, Banner, Oathbreakers, Revealing Mark, Routing Cry attack duration. Maintaining those buffs is simple. Maintaining them while performing a solid DPS rotation isn't. In my view, it would be preferable to reward those who are capable of achieving this. Start by removing Revealing Mark and encouraging active play.

    Revealing marks goes poof with cappy update, sure, cool, raiding gets quite a bit different and so does the class, sounds like fun. But

    1)I dont think that will happen. That mark has been here for forever to a degree and I believe its just risen to the forefront of braindead cappying the last 2 level caps, especially here at 120. We had a set bonus from Throne that actually added 5% more to the mark, but that raid did not (in my memory, tell me different please if you think so) have the reliance on revealing mark like Anvil does. I remember still dying as an RK in Rakothas when a couple orcs would end up on me, champs died often as well if they pulled all the orcs and the healers were neglecting them (and champs were in a better spot at 105 than they are now). Mumaks, atleast the strat we ran, was far from relying on revealing mark. Vado was for sure a revealing mark reliance fight for the dps. UO sure wasn't. Nazguls were but it was practically a mechanic of the fight which I found to be very interesting, you would consider bringing warden tanks because they could outheal your mini via revealing mark because of that ICH debuff. And then Gothmog didnt face much AOE damage outside of Carn Dum room with all the adds, but another situation that I dont believe revealing mark was saving the champ who pulled everything or rk who accidentally combustioned. There is a comment above about how the raid for dps is just get 1 shot or easily heal the dps from revealing but that issue is not revealing mark alone, its raid design as well. All that considered and the fact the mark has been here for so long I really do not think we are seeing it vanish completely with cappy update.
    Starting out with the mindset that it is not going to change anyway is fundamentally unhelpful, and makes it impossible for me to convince you otherwise. The only thing I might say to persuade you, is the following. When Vastin started working on minstrels, one of the Discord servers I was in at the time had a (metaphorical) breakdown over the fact that the class now felt slow and clunky, because SoS would no longer cut animations. I told them time and time again: "It had to be done, a 1.5s cd immediate skill is bad for the game. If you don't like it being this slow, tell him to speed up the animations, not to revert the changes. The changes are good.".
    They all told me "Nah that's not going to happen anyway, he ruined the class.". I posted in the minstrel thread that the animations should be sped up, as did a few other people. Lo and behold, the next iteration of minstrel changes included a significant increase to the speed of nearly all skill animations.
    The message here is hopefully clear. Don't be closed minded about what will and what won't happen. Try to make the changes happen that are best for the class. In this case, that means completely reworking Revealing Mark, for the reasons that I've mentioned in my previous post. I haven't seen you disagree with those points that I made. If anything, you're agreeing with those points.

    I don't think you can really compare the days of TotDT with the current version of the game. There was a completely different meta in place. Beorning healers weren't as prominent (which, given their raid wide healing, is significant), hunters weren't as prominent early on, and minstrels functioned very, very differently. We also had a stat squish happen inbetween, which altered the damage:health ratio, which heavily influences Revealing Mark. That ratio is part of why this problem has slowly crept in. It is time we find a permanent solution to it.

    2)I'm holding on to it because I just dont agree it should be pulled all together. Nerf it, make the raids better that it isnt overpower, aka not hitting 1 big boss the entire time and easily healing yourself, constantly swapping to adds or have to physically move damper the impact of revealing mark heftily(Along with actual threatening steady aoe dps, not just 1 shot or not bursts from a boss). You see damage-returned-as-heals all over the place in video games, the concept of it can remain and be useful/not as braindead as it is. I.E. nazguls in Throne.
    I'm sorry to say, but this is a really silly point to make. I know that you don't agree. That's the whole reason for this discussion. Simply stating it again doesn't really help. "Just not agreeing" isn't much of an argument for why we should keep it. If the dev in charge insisted on keeping it, I too would be in favour of nerfing it. More heavily than what you're suggesting, to be sure, but it would be the only option left in that case. However, if your only point here is that you just don't agree, and don't elaborate on it further (or just don't have a reason, other than sentimental ones - which I don't mean disrespectfully), then having a discussion about it is frankly quite pointless, because I can't change your mind, no matter what.

    I think it could be nerfed to a point that it is not OP
    I think you would be mistaken, in that regard. The reason being that the skill scales linearly with the number of group members. You will either have a scenario where it is practically worthless in a 3-man instance, and balanced in a 12-man raid, or you will have a scenario where it is viable in a 3-man instance, but ridiculously strong in a 12-man raid. You could make the case that the balancing should be done around 12-man content, in which case there is a possibility that you're correct, but it would still wildly depend on the raid encounter itself.

    If who ever does the cappy rework deicdes to pull revealing mark completely and makes a lot of changes to cappy healing, I will not cry any tears I promise. But should it remain I would like to see something along the lines of what I originally post in hope of accomplishing the reasons I gave for it.
    If you won't be bothered by seeing it go, why don't you support my position to begin with? It can't be just because you think it won't happen. Even if it won't happen, you don't stand to lose anything by agreeing with me. As a matter of fact, given that you agree with me about most of the points I made, I think you're almost there. You seem to agree with the arguments, but not with the logical conclusion that follows from them. Perhaps my tone is too snarky for people to willingly agree with me.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
    Also known as Giliodor

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Olebenny View Post
    So I've been doing a lot of thinking about cappy and how it could be changed with the rumoured cappy update it looks like we are getting this summer. There are some serious issues such as their healing that other people go more in depth on in other threads but I wanted to toss an idea for how to change how cappy marks work. Couple issues this aims to address...
    -Revealing mark is a bit OP to have, ateast for red/yellow line. I think just about everyone is on board with that notion.
    -Revealing and Telling mark alone carry too much weight for deciding group compositions
    -Noble mark is kinda meh, will touch on that more down below.
    First point, Revealing is NOT OP for captain in red or yellow, its not OP IN ANY LINE. Revealing is overpowered in group related content.

    Second point I agree, though telling is quite fine, it doesn't break anything, but may have too much impact with the current damage scaling, yes.

    Noble mark is trash, I'm not even gonna talk about it here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olebenny View Post
    So here is what I suggest, depending on what line you specialize in, you automatically get a mark that can be upgraded via a capstone trait. I will break down more of it afterwards

    When you are specced red
    -Increase incoming damage to the marked target by 5%
    -5% of damage dealt to the marked target is returned as heals
    -Red line receives a new additional capstone trait that would buff its mark by increasing the incoming damage by 2%

    When you are specced yellow
    -5% of damage dealt to the marked target is returned as heals
    -Every time the cappy attacks the marked target they are healed for 1% of their max morale
    -Yellow line receives a new additional capstone trait that increases the max morale heal by 1% to a total of 2%

    When you are specced blue
    -10% of damage dealt to the marked target is returned as heals
    -Blue line receives a new additional capstone trait that increases the damage returned as heals by 5% to a total of 15%
    I disagree on all of those suggestions, to bind marks to each line is going to make the captain less flexible. I believe you haven't read what a captain stands for, the very basics of the class.

    Jack of All Trades: the Captain has a hand in just about every job for a group. Alone, a Captain is a capable warrior and healer, but in a group, they improve a fellowship to an exceptional level. Although they aren't the best in any one area (even when they are traited that way), they can fill just about any role in a group to a limited extent, barring that of ranged attacker. However, advanced Captains are able to summon an Archer who deals non-trivial damage. Equipped with a Herald and plenty of offensive and defensive capabilities, the Captain is a class that requires some thought and focus to mastering.
    If you want to bind marks to the lines, go play a beorn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olebenny View Post
    When you are specced red
    -Increase incoming damage to the marked target by 5%

    Anyway, moving on to the first point, the incoming heal is not gonna do anything, especially not since captains currently lack in their scaling. It's a total mess in regard to the heals and self-heal capability. They no longer use might, because might has become an utterly garbage stat. Might used to give us a fair portion of outgoing heal in combination with physical mastery. Tactical mastery would translate in outgoing heal in this case. Since the heals havent been scaled since Rohan and the heals were actually touched by SSG around mordor, the healing capability of the average cappy has become minimal to nothing. Even with the current raid runes, captains are simply not able to heal properly unless they've godlike gear, then their heals become a bit respectable. Overall its below what it should be. In a view of fellowship related content I can see it working, but on the other hand, the captain himself doesnt benefit much from this at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olebenny View Post

    When you are specced red / When you are specced yellow
    -5% of damage dealt to the marked target is returned as heals
    I kinda agree with this one, but still I think it might be too strong too some aspects in group related content. The 5% can still become an issue in raids or fellowships, but solo it might fall short on the captain its survivability, 5% will never be enough for the captain, thus he either needs an additional mark that affects only himself or other captains, or he gets more active heals/stronger selfheal capability. For this, you can have a lot of options, I've seen stance switches with compensations, more active healing, defensive buffs, more active heals etc etc. There's more going on than just this one, I'll make the problem with this clear in my conclusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olebenny View Post

    When you are specced yellow
    -Every time the cappy attacks the marked target they are healed for 1% of their max morale
    -Yellow line receives a new additional capstone trait that increases the max morale heal by 1% to a total of 2%

    When you are specced red
    -Red line receives a new additional capstone trait that would buff its mark by increasing the incoming damage by 2%

    Nice bonuses, but not very relevant to the captain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olebenny View Post

    When you are specced blue
    -10% of damage dealt to the marked target is returned as heals
    -Blue line receives a new additional capstone trait that increases the damage returned as heals by 5% to a total of 15%
    This suggestion only makes the problem worse, you create that what we try to get rid of.


    Conclusion
    Regarding all lines making an additional heal to the damage being done, makes it only worse.

    I hope you see what I mean.

    What happens if all 3 lines of captains are stacking their marks?
    5% return + 5% return + 15% return.

    This would give 3 captain a total healing capability on dmg return of 25%

    This is ofcourse broken.

    Then making it unstackable of unthinkable imo, this because the second captain will most likely not have a spot in the raid. The upcoming damage buff nerfs and the need to do proper dps rotations while maintaining the captain buffs is gonna ask toomuch of most captains.

    Then again, if blue captain becomes more solid but has the 15% revealing mark, then we're back off where we were discussing so much about.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    Unless you failed to mention that the healing return is only for the captain himself, this is totally unnecessary and would only continue to propagate the crutch that Captain group healing is based on. If Red captains need to provide significant group healing, make it happen through significantly buffing/changing Inspire, Rallying Cry and Gallant Display. Not by applying some boring mark to a target.



    So first you agree that Revealing Mark is too strong, but then you want to keep it exactly the same for blue line? Why? It would be broken for exactly the same reasons. This ability needs to undergo major changes, regardless of the trait line that has access to it.



    None of these activities should make you rely on a crutch. I do not understand why you have written this entire post with the mindset that the morale return on damage should somehow continue to exist. Let alone for every trait line. It's poor design. It's boring. It reduces the skill cap of the class. Get rid of it.
    Like Gili already mentioned, its a bit contradictory, but I understand you believe it should be in the captain its arsenal. Though I think that even if u want to keep it in, you've to nerf it down to like 1/2/3%. Though I personally think the captain still should have a bigger advantage of it in combination with active healing like Gili mentioned, but missed out on Muster Courage - Selfheal.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dorri_Hammerfist View Post
    so cappy has the majority of damaging skills on long cd, super slow animation when it poses after each swing, lacking/(low) dps, unreliabe self-heals outside of blue mark, long cd on mobs for OB, long cd on Muster courage/RC/WoC, low hot-component on heals/inspire and the only suggestion is to break the class further by changing blue/red marks?
    I understand the worry you have, but the slow animations is what makes the captain a captain. We are slow, but we're supposed to have the advantage of heavy burst damage. This is what our redline is all about in its rotation.



    As you can see, your rotation is all coming together on the last part as soon as you use cutting attack and have maximized your damage output, you've to put everything into your last few skills. This is made easier with master of war to ensure we get the burst off. The captain his damage is about building your damage % and magnitude for the last few skills, that being shadow-lament, devastating blow/pressing attack. Captains have always been very strong in burst but this has faded a bit with the time. This is something SSG needs to fix. Though I forgot to mention that you've to use sure strike more often before you initiate with cutting attack. Because after this rotation there comes a gap that should be avoided by using sure-strike more often.

    It's common to find this mistake a lot in captains, I used to do this aswell and compensate it around lvl 105 with gallant display like most captains do nowadays. Though this is wrong, the damage % gain from sure strike now is worth it to use sure strike more often in the rotation than gallant display. Using gallant display will not only hurt your dps rotation but also your trait points.

    Quote Originally Posted by jomanjy View Post
    I think they should just replace revealing mark effect entirely with something else. you can literally ignore so many mechanics, go full glass in raid/pve content without worrying about anything just because you know you will always be at full health as long as dpsing which is very ridiculous. even if it was in blue spec only. i'd rather buff other captain's heals rather than it become a 1 skill line just exactly like blue RK before the fates nerf.
    Not only PvE m8, in PvP aswell. Captains who do their rotations correct and change tactics depending on situations will become immortal aswell. They cannot be taken down alone, though they need to have the correct build for this, which almost no captain gets to, because all of them prefer to go morale "buffer" or hybrid. In theory, it's possible to pull this off.


    Quote Originally Posted by Olebenny View Post
    Yeah is there a problem with this? Your comment adds nothing worth while to this thread. I posted this just to throw an idea out and get people's minds working. I dont know enough to talk about animations or stuff like that. OB changes imo are fine for the raiding spectrum, I would have prefered a simple removal of all the set bonuses that reset the CD but Im chill with what we got. I actually do say heals should increase/stuff should be done about that, perhaps read the comments fully

    This what I proposed, so feedback should focus on that, create another thread for the other stuff if you want, and also explain why it breaks the class further please, simply saying it does is not constructive

    May I ask, do you EVEN play captain?!
    I like the extra dramatic effect to it



    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    This is already off to a very strange start. You fail to see the reasoning, but you 100% agree? Alright. Well, regardless, let's look at how this would play out. Revealing Mark is the largest part of a blue captain's healing, by far. Blue line has a plethora of actual healing abilities that require an active rotation. The class would be much more engaging if those were made meaningful, instead of some boring, passive mark on the main target. Revealing Mark is currently just incredibly poorly designed. It facilitates a lazy playstyle, and makes the actual healing abilities feel meaningless in comparison to it.
    For that reason, Revealing Mark should be re-designed, not also for blue line, but especially for blue line.



    I did not misunderstand you at all. You said you want to keep Revealing Mark at 15% for blue line. Period. This means you would mitigate the problem for red line and yellow line, but keep it unchanged for blue line. Blue line is a healing line, and its healing should be balanced around its active abilities such as Valiant Strike, Rallying Cry, Words of Courage, Inspire, Gallant Display and Standard of Honour. It shouldn't rely on a crutch like Revealing Mark to be relevant.
    On the other hand, scaling all these active abilities while keeping Revealing Mark as it, as you proposed, would simply eliminate any need for healing in the DPS group, just by virtue of having a blue captain in the tank group. This is also poor design. It's obvious that Revealing Mark leads to very imbalanced scenarios, such as the one that is in place currently, where any kind of raid damage is easily mitigated by the red captain, who doesn't even have to put in any effort to do so. Get rid of it, for every trait line. The concept is outdated.



    You don't seem to realise that the vast majority of Revealing Mark healing is overhealing. Even 5% would be incredibly potent. With DPS in T3 doing anywhere from 100k DPS on boss 4, to 200k+ on boss 2 and 3, 5% would still mean 5k-10k HPS per DPS. I'm not sure how much clearer it could be that the concept of this ability in fundamentally imbalanced, and needs to be scrapped from the class design. It could be easily replaced with something that is also meaningful, and to compensate, the captain's active healing abilities would be substantially increased.
    In that scenario, a red captain could still support the DPS group with off-healing, good captains would have a more meaningful way of distinguishing themselves, and we wouldn't have a scenario where healing the DPS group is completely trivial. Everything is in favour of what I am suggesting here. Holding on to the concept of Revealing Mark, just for the sake of it, is very short sighted.

    It's clear that you enjoy the captain class, so I hope you can take my explanation on board and re-consider your stance on this.

    PS. The trade-off for going blue line isn't actually as significant as you might think. Given that everyone can cap their mastery and crit, the red line tactics aren't that meaningful. If blue line became the new meta, DPS'ers would account for that, and blue line would provide nearly the same support as red line. The only difference would be Oathbreakers. Instead, blue line gets a meaningful -5% attack duration on its tactics, and Inspiriting Presence for an RK in the raid. For sure, this would be a noticable trade-off to make. But other than that, the support remain essentially the same.
    I agree with Gili on almost everything, this leads us back to the captain himself, his damage is inconsistent and only relates to burst. For a captain himself, revealing would not be so OP, but it definitively is for the other classes, even 5% is too strong imo. This needs to be scrapped and replaced with a lot more sustainable self-healing capability, or burst self-healing. Though everything regarding the captain its active healing is currently not enough, not for the group and not for himself. (if we place revealing outside of this)



    Quote Originally Posted by Olebenny View Post
    This is good, im liking this, lets keep this discussion going, it expands a bit more outside of simply cappy revealing mark to general raid design.



    Ill take blame for that, confusion on my part it seems. I didnt agree that it "further propegates the crutch that Captain group healing is based on" (will touch on that later) and therefor thought that part of the comment was unnecessary, but did agree in the general idea you were talking about that captain healing needs to be more than revealing mark. Hope that is a bit more clear?
    Not more than revealing mark, it needs to be scaled back to what it once was.

    Revealing needs to be removed now, it has indeed become too powerful with current design.




    Quote Originally Posted by Olebenny View Post

    Yes agreed, the class is the go to "stand here, put this mark on this target and hit this 1 skill when raid leader says to" and would be nice to have that skill level, or atleast the potential of the class, to be increased. Its not bad for games to have a simple class to play, I would go as far as to say its a necessity, even when looking at endgame raiding. But classes like RK/Hunter dps do a decent job fulfilling that role for LotRO and the captain class can be alot more interesting in red/blue line if changes like you mentioned were implemented.
    I like this one, I think u missed out on something.



    Nah to be serious, the class should not be a "simple class to play". Though it currently is too forgiving on that. I've seen people struggling doing the actual buffing, keeping up the buffs. So to do the actual dps rotation together with the buffing could give you some idea of how difficult the class actually is if you want to max this out. With current design, captains just sit back, push a few buttons and thats it, this is not how it should be, especially not for a support class like the captain. Out of all 3 lines, our blue lines is so complex, only a very few captains are able to play this line properly. The line does not only buff, it has multiple rotations going, the building on healing% in that line needs to be build up like in redline, except this goes through different rotations going through each other. You've to maintain multiple rotations in order not to miss out on healing. The complexity of this line would be not be comparable to any class in the game imo, thats why it makes me a bit sad that it currently lacks and revealing basically makes this line useless, because you're better off being red + revealing.

    The current design of captain allows players to have an easy time, it lets you learn to maintain the buffs, but is too forgiving. Captains should be able to pull off improvised tactics in stressing/difficult situations that can occur on any given moment, this is where most captains fall short on, even if they can manage the DPS rotation. The most difficult part is to react to what is currently happening on the field, if your raid leader does not say anything, you have to learn act on your own aswell. He does not know what you're exactly doing, but just keeps tracks on the few major buff skills. This mostly being banner and OB. He does not know that you might have saved a tank his ####, or the offhealing you're doing to your tank or group members who accidentally drop in the ice, saving their ####. This is what is not only missed out on by almost everyone, but sometimes taken for granted. I've noticed in my past raiding experience that some raid leaders put too much stress on captains. Yes a captain who just buffs and does not bother with dps rotation and flexibility in difficult situations will have his hands full on this, but captains who bother actually off-healing, reacting to the flow of battle are put under heavy pressure are sometimes asked too much.

    An example is a raid leader shouting for the marks to a tank captain who is busy with maintaining his short timed buffs to keep the defenses up, the mark went off because the target was out of range. He refreshes the marks after, but at the end of the fight, the captain is put on blame for poor performance.

    Sometimes, you've to come up with crazy ideas when tactics do not work, know what you're capable off as captain. For example, I used the last stand tactic with the pet at the 4th boss (dragon) to delay her. Apparently this was not allowed or meant this way so they instead killed this tactic by putting in a oneshot (thanks SSG).

    Another example is keeping fighting withdrawal ready after last stand. We were in T3 tanking the dwarfs but enraged went on, our guard first took the last boss with jugger, then I followed up with last stand. But this was never gonna be enough, so what I did was, I used fighting withdrawal. The chance of getting a full hit is always there ofcourse, but you can parry the enraged attacks and try to hold him off aslong as you can, you can tank the partial enraged hits. I managed to tank the boss another 20 seconds after last stand with fighting withdrawal. I believe this is the most difficult part of the class, know when to be flexible.


    This is what lacks to most captains, because the class is too forgiving, they do not learn the hard way. The only way to experience the punishment for the lack of situational awareness is in the moors, being alone as a captain, fighting alone. Sometimes you come in and see an ally fighting 2 wargs, first thing you do is you aid him with words of courage and put the marks on. These kind of things is what you need to learn in a raid aswell imo, but this does not happen with current design, it does not give you the experience you should learn as a captain. (Especially valar captains)

    The danger to this is that you sometimes get tunnelvision when you're losing focus, it still happens to me aswell on certain occasions.

    Hence why I think the captain is one of the most difficult classes to play, you've to keep track on so much things, you've so much responsibility, as for the Lore-Master, they both have, but this is a bit generalized for the captain its case. Your mistakes are a nightmare for your allies.



    Quote Originally Posted by Olebenny View Post

    You have some other comments Im not gonna quote specifically cause they all generally point the same direction, get rid of revealing mark. So consider this next bit a reply to everything else you wrote

    Revealing marks goes poof with cappy update, sure, cool, raiding gets quite a bit different and so does the class, sounds like fun. But

    1)I dont think that will happen. That mark has been here for forever to a degree and I believe its just risen to the forefront of braindead cappying the last 2 level caps, especially here at 120. We had a set bonus from Throne that actually added 5% more to the mark, but that raid did not (in my memory, tell me different please if you think so) have the reliance on revealing mark like Anvil does. I remember still dying as an RK in Rakothas when a couple orcs would end up on me, champs died often as well if they pulled all the orcs and the healers were neglecting them (and champs were in a better spot at 105 than they are now). Mumaks, atleast the strat we ran, was far from relying on revealing mark. Vado was for sure a revealing mark reliance fight for the dps. UO sure wasn't. Nazguls were but it was practically a mechanic of the fight which I found to be very interesting, you would consider bringing warden tanks because they could outheal your mini via revealing mark because of that ICH debuff. And then Gothmog didnt face much AOE damage outside of Carn Dum room with all the adds, but another situation that I dont believe revealing mark was saving the champ who pulled everything or rk who accidentally combustioned. There is a comment above about how the raid for dps is just get 1 shot or easily heal the dps from revealing but that issue is not revealing mark alone, its raid design as well. All that considered and the fact the mark has been here for so long I really do not think we are seeing it vanish completely with cappy update.
    Firstly, the 5% was pelennor, not throne. I think that with what you say, you do not see why they put oneshots in. The reason they've put these mechanics with current class design is because of revealingmark, the damage that would eat away simply doesnt work. This all because of revealing, so this needs to be fixed. Going in with this kind of mentality is not gonna work, even tho I wouldnt like to lose revealing either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olebenny View Post

    2)I'm holding on to it because I just dont agree it should be pulled all together. Nerf it, make the raids better that it isnt overpower, aka not hitting 1 big boss the entire time and easily healing yourself, constantly swapping to adds or have to physically move damper the impact of revealing mark heftily(Along with actual threatening steady aoe dps, not just 1 shot or not bursts from a boss). You see damage-returned-as-heals all over the place in video games, the concept of it can remain and be useful/not as braindead as it is. I.E. nazguls in Throne.
    It doesn't matter, one skill for DPS classes is enough to fully heal them, nothing is capable of killing a DPS class if the incoming damage is less than its actual morale pool. This because of revealing being this strong. The only way it could get to a DPS class is when being separated from reaching revealing. (Boss 1 anvil belly)

    OR

    When the DPS class has a gap in their skills, made by an attack duration slow or induction increase. Still, their damage is too great on the current morale pools, a 150k hit already results in 22.5k heal return. With a fast attack pattern, DPS classes no longer need to rely on their defensive stats, this because attack becomes defense. Attack -> Passive heal, continues regeneration without the need to sacrifice everything on your defensive stats. The more attack power, the more you regenerate, I can tell easily how overpowered this is, because I used this in the moors a lot. I became immortal in 1v1s, creeps couldn't even let my pool dip below 70% even though I had only 21k morale( AND 20% REVEALING) . It essentially becomes dynamic, its a lot more efficient than buffering your pool and actually bringing in defensive stats to help mitigate the incoming damage. Ofcourse, as captain you can fill mitigations with damage and leave morale(vitality) out of it, doing so makes it dynamic. They essentially become active tanks (partially due their active self-healing) and having passive heal from their damage aswell.

    They share somewhat the same kind of healing as wardens once possessed, but because a captain his damage is lower, it will never be as strong. Their healing from revealing and self-heals can be overpowered by good sustained DPS (higher number than what actually comes in via HPS), or they get broken by running captains out on power, as power is still a weakness for a lot of captains(as they never cover it up).
    Ever since Isengard captains suffer from the ICPR.


    Quote Originally Posted by Olebenny View Post

    So going back to my OG post, alot of the suggestions I give is for the sake of how much impact it has on forming raids as it stands now, yes I know how OP it is, I am very aware of the fact. I think it could be nerfed to a point that it is not OP and the future raids can hopefully not be so braindead to dps. If some form of revealing mark existed in all 3 lines for a cappy, the almost always prevalent situation of 2 cappies in a raid for both revealing and telling would hopefully vanish and we could potentially see group comps be more diverse with bear/champ tanks (or warden tanks, but yeah, thats not exactly the same thing, couple other issues there mainly revolving around, once again, raid design)

    If who ever does the cappy rework deicdes to pull revealing mark completely and makes a lot of changes to cappy healing, I will not cry any tears I promise. But should it remain I would like to see something along the lines of what I originally post in hope of accomplishing the reasons I gave for it.

    I await your response, Im reall enjoying this convo, and hope Vastin is watching or something. Get these ideas flowing before we get a "Hey heres a first glance at cappy changes" dropped on us
    So I firstly talk about revealing. You mention that if there's some sort of revealing mark in all 3 lines was added with a less stronger effect, could be fixed?

    Firstly, the mechanic itself is completely broken and to give you some idea of how broken it really is, I give you an example of what we managed to pull off with revealing.

    We managed to pull a hunter into a tank spot for T3 3-man content. We've put a hunter as our tank into t3 glimmerdeep boss 1. He was able to completely tank the boss together with a blue captain, a burglar and revealing mark.
    The second thing we did was, we used a yellow champion as tank, together with a red captain and yellow minstrel. We could use the champion as a tank without needing to heal at all, the damage a yellow mini and a red captain did amplify made revealing so insanely strong, we couldn't even see the champion dip in his pool.


    This is just a tip of the iceberg, in raid situations, the revealing mark is a lot more amplified in raid-scale, making it insanely strong. This is why oneshots are in, all because revealing.


    For the percentage gain over damage, it will all decrease across the table. Vastin mentioned this in his small letter, this wont only go for the captain, but also other classes will be affected. In return, I personally would like to see a good reward come out for a perfect rotation, atleast, give captains a bit more love who invest a lot of time and energy in their rotations.

    This means, you have to re-scale the captain it's DPS back to what it orginally held in %. Then secondly, rescale the offhealing (muster courage s-heal, gallant, inspire, words of courage etc etc). Maybe get the captain a bit more on line with off-healing capabilities, like we had before the helms deep changes. Maybe bring back more defeat-events like War-Cry. Add more complexity, because I hate the fact that captains only need to press 4 buttons to be viable in raid and our actual rotations and offhealing is not being cared about.

    I think I'm done writing, I might add stuff in later, or change things if I see I made an error in clarifying my piece of thought.
    zah
    Last edited by Zaheer; Jul 14 2019 at 01:36 PM.
    WhiteGoliath

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olebenny View Post
    Yes agreed, the class is the go to "stand here, put this mark on this target and hit this 1 skill when raid leader says to" and would be nice to have that skill level, or atleast the potential of the class, to be increased. Its not bad for games to have a simple class to play, I would go as far as to say its a necessity, even when looking at endgame raiding. But classes like RK/Hunter dps do a decent job fulfilling that role for LotRO and the captain class can be alot more interesting in red/blue line if changes like you mentioned were implemented.
    Ummmm....... Do you actually even play captain? I would even go so far to say that Captain is probably the most complex and versatile of all classes and requires an extremely high-level of skill to be good at.. Yes the healing aspect is brain-dead because all you do is put revealing mark on and go afk, but it becomes a very different situation when you are healing the raid or the 6man as a blue captain, yes, whilst you never have to concern yourself with the DPS because they are all instantly healed, but tank healing is a very different situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olebenny View Post
    You have some other comments Im not gonna quote specifically cause they all generally point the same direction, get rid of revealing mark. So consider this next bit a reply to everything else you wrote. Revealing marks goes poof with cappy update, sure, cool, raiding gets quite a bit different and so does the class, sounds like fun. But
    One shot mechanics only seem to be a thing in the raid, because, realistically, healing is broken, and that healing is because of a captain. Remove revealing mark and you remove the need for stupid one-shot mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olebenny View Post
    1)I dont think that will happen. That mark has been here for forever to a degree and I believe its just risen to the forefront of braindead cappying the last 2 level caps, especially here at 120. We had a set bonus from Throne that actually added 5% more to the mark, but that raid did not (in my memory, tell me different please if you think so) have the reliance on revealing mark like Anvil does. I remember still dying as an RK in Rakothas when a couple orcs would end up on me, champs died often as well if they pulled all the orcs and the healers were neglecting them (and champs were in a better spot at 105 than they are now). Mumaks, atleast the strat we ran, was far from relying on revealing mark. Vado was for sure a revealing mark reliance fight for the dps. UO sure wasn't. Nazguls were but it was practically a mechanic of the fight which I found to be very interesting, you would consider bringing warden tanks because they could outheal your mini via revealing mark because of that ICH debuff. And then Gothmog didnt face much AOE damage outside of Carn Dum room with all the adds, but another situation that I dont believe revealing mark was saving the champ who pulled everything or rk who accidentally combustioned. There is a comment above about how the raid for dps is just get 1 shot or easily heal the dps from revealing but that issue is not revealing mark alone, its raid design as well. All that considered and the fact the mark has been here for so long I really do not think we are seeing it vanish completely with cappy update.
    Ok firstly, champs are in a far better spot 'now' than they were in throne in my opinion, champions, and I mean good champions are currently the Top dpsers in the raid next to wardens, anyone who would like to disagree or argue that can PM me. Sorry but this is fact.

    With that out of the way, Anvil only 'relies' on revealing mark, because its a broken raid that was built in the knowledge that revealing mark exists, so the mechanics are built around it. Remove revealing mark and you remove the need for half of the stupid mechanics in the raid as I have already stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olebenny View Post
    2)I'm holding on to it because I just dont agree it should be pulled all together. Nerf it, make the raids better that it isnt overpower, aka not hitting 1 big boss the entire time and easily healing yourself, constantly swapping to adds or have to physically move damper the impact of revealing mark heftily(Along with actual threatening steady aoe dps, not just 1 shot or not bursts from a boss). You see damage-returned-as-heals all over the place in video games, the concept of it can remain and be useful/not as braindead as it is. I.E. nazguls in Throne.
    Damage-returned-as-heals is an extremely bad concept, and it is implemented in a ridiculous way in Lotro. It ultimately removes the need of a healer for your DPS classes, and has been mentioned above, glass cannon is the way to go, the more you dps, the more you heal yourself, great logic behind that. An ideal rework to revealing mark would be to return a flat number when hitting the target, e.g. 250-500 morale, rather than 15% of your damage, I've seen hunters who have done 900k-1.1mil Heart Seekers in some fights, 15% of 900k is a 135k heal btw. Just let that sink in before you continue your vehement support of revealing mark, and then tell me that this concept, that revealing mark should stay.

    Yes, ultimately revealing mark was a very imperative part of the Nazgul boss fight in throne, because of the way that boss was designed, but you cannot expect every boss to be designed similarly to compensate for one skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olebenny View Post
    So going back to my OG post, alot of the suggestions I give is for the sake of how much impact it has on forming raids as it stands now, yes I know how OP it is, I am very aware of the fact. I think it could be nerfed to a point that it is not OP and the future raids can hopefully not be so braindead to dps. If some form of revealing mark existed in all 3 lines for a cappy, the almost always prevalent situation of 2 cappies in a raid for both revealing and telling would hopefully vanish and we could potentially see group comps be more diverse.
    2 or more Captains have always been the bread and butter to raids. Before the changes to OB you imperatively always had two red cappies, and then a yellow captain if you wanted it (Since the trait tree changes anyway) And now, its one yellow and one red (On your other point though, I have seen champions, bears and wardens all effectively tank T2, and even seen a warden tank T3) which again I don't see anything wrong with, the class, as I said, is the most diverse and complex, and just simply by being in a different line is like bringing an entirely different class, because you are not there for the same purpose, its not like taking two Hunters who are there solely for DPS, you're taking one captain as a tank and one captain as buff/support, the complexity of the class allows for this.

    Nerfing and/or removing revealing mark in its entirety will open the door for better raid design and ultimately change the entire raid dynamic anyway, and yes, it really is, 'just' revealing mark preventing it.

  16. #16
    To give my $0.02, I think a much more simplistic approach to Cappy marks would be beneficial.

    Telling Mark (red) is fine the way it is. I don't see a reason to change it.

    Noble Mark (yellow) also works fine. It doesn't need to be altered in any way in my opinion. I feel like increasing the percentage heal it returns to the Cappy though would be a bit unbalanced. With current morale levels at 120, Noble Mark already heals the Cappy for somewhere between 3.5k and 4k, roundabout. Remember that this healing is provided on every skill hit, and on every autoattack. As such, it can provide a large amount of HPS to the Cappy, and doubling it would be fairly broken in my opinion, especially when taking into consideration the sheer number of cooldowns that a Cappy tank has access to.

    Revealing Mark (blue) is the only mark that has a problem. In my opinion, the best solution would be to make Revealing Mark a flat heal return. Let's say it heals 1k every hit (pulling numbers out of nowhere) or something along those lines. This would still make it a decent heal, giving somewhere between 2-4k HPS depending on the class, but would prevent it from being overpowered to the point where a DPS can heal itself for 20% of its max morale every second, regardless of their damage output.


    Also, I feel it is necessary for Cappy marks to stack. Cappies are already discouraged in groups a bit now since you can't do things like pick up Oathies in tank line, etc. Removing the versatility of stacking Cappy marks would be yet another nail in that coffin.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    Revealing Mark (blue) is the only mark that has a problem. In my opinion, the best solution would be to make Revealing Mark a flat heal return. Let's say it heals 1k every hit (pulling numbers out of nowhere) or something along those lines. This would still make it a decent heal, giving somewhere between 2-4k HPS depending on the class, but would prevent it from being overpowered to the point where a DPS can heal itself for 20% of its max morale every second, regardless of their damage output.
    The problem with that is that the effectiveness would wildly vary between classes. For example, let's compare a burglar and the captain himself. Dual wielding means faster attack speed, and double the attacks with each auto attack. This means more than double the healing for a burglar, from auto attacks. Not only that, burglar attacks in general are quicker, so that will mean an even greater disparity.
    It would also greatly benefit DoT classes, to a degree where I think this concept isn't feasible. I think a better solution is to make Revealing Mark apply a buff to any who hit the marked target. What kind of buff is open to discussion, but a morale return is simply a poor decision, in my eyes.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
    Also known as Giliodor

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    The problem with that is that the effectiveness would wildly vary between classes. For example, let's compare a burglar and the captain himself. Dual wielding means faster attack speed, and double the attacks with each auto attack. This means more than double the healing for a burglar, from auto attacks. Not only that, burglar attacks in general are quicker, so that will mean an even greater disparity.
    It would also greatly benefit DoT classes, to a degree where I think this concept isn't feasible. I think a better solution is to make Revealing Mark apply a buff to any who hit the marked target. What kind of buff is open to discussion, but a morale return is simply a poor decision, in my eyes.
    Fair enough. The way I see it, it isn't necessarily bad to have something designed to help some classes more than others. Many things in LOTRO work that way. I can definitely see what you're getting at though. I would say that attack speed should probably be normalized a bit (ha), but yeah, a worthwhile buff of some sort would be nice as well.

    Maybe something like -1-2% incoming damage on every skill use with a 5s duration, stacking 5 times? I think that'd be fair. It'd increase survivability in group content a bit while not providing so much a buff that you can't go without it like how the meta currently is.

  19. #19
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    In all fairness, i would say remove the skill completely or just change it to something else entirely.
    Its way to OP like it stands today.

    Most bosses would be a lot more challenging without this skill.
    Commander Emaldiom [EN] Evernight - Challenger of Saruman - Lotro
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  20. #20
    I quite like Revealing Mark, exactly because it allows strategies where the DPS has no healer, and therefore has to look after themselves (solo healer, no healer, whatever). In practice, "DPS looking after themselves" isn't very difficult, because the mark heals a lot, but that's a problem of DPS-to-morale ratio and DPS-to-TPS in the raid in general. DPS, DPS morale, and TPS need to be balanced right around that point where on-point DPS can just barely survive with Revealing Mark. With the current DPS and morale, the mark may need to be nerfed to 5% morale return. I don't think there's any rigorous testing done on DPS-TPS-morale ratios before updates go live, though; nor is there any official goal or standard that we can compare to.

    To promote more active captain healing strats, you could change the mark to something like "1% per active HoT" (or similar), balanced to allow a good cappy healer to maintain a 10% mark, a mediocre cappy healer or a good red/yellow captain around 6%, and a bad healer or mediocre red cappy maybe 3%.
    Andhilin, Ifeyina, Iondhilin, wardens of Gondolin -- Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit into Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day.

 

 

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