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  1. #1

    [QUESTS & REGIONS] Survival quests & regions

    The idea is creating a new type of areas called "survival regions" where three new stats appear in the player called "hunger", "thirst" and "fatigue".

    Survival regions are huge places devoid (or nearly) of people and with dangerous weather or terrain features or even experiencing mirages (false secure places). Or maybe some strange demons/beasts/pestilence/whatever. The idea is using "empty" areas like Forodwaith with the quest of it being capable of crossing it.

    Survival regions can be deserts, icy wastes, badlands or even open oceans (where you are in a boat that can be sinked).

    Maybe you need to find something, maybe piloting a caravan, maybe protecting someone... The difference with survival quests is that these are by far longer, can be cut (login/logout) and the terrain is full of storms/fogs/snow/impassable pits/holes...

    "Hunger" can be reduced by consuming "food" items.
    "Thirst" can be reduced by consuming "beverage" items (better using non-alcoholic of course, except maybe in cold places).
    "Fatigue" can be reduced by using a special item-on-place called "encampment valid location" (in a boat is useless) plus a "campfire kit" item.

    The three stats and the speed of how fast increase are level-related but not a lot.

    No minimap/map (but compass indications yes), no horses, no stables (of course), speed = walking because you are in deep sand or deep snow (except if you have some special shoes). Walking and running increase fatigue (just being there increase it a little).

    No food/rest/beverage and you reappear in a bed in Bree/Somewhere telling that they found you spaced out and X days passed while you sleeping.

    In desert regions thirst increase faster, in cold ones hunger.

    Fatigue is something for forcing the need of sleeping and encampment protection/disposal. Who will replace you while you sleep? How dispose the animals? Where is better to hide?
    Fatigue also forces you to find a secure place, so exploration is a must if you are in a foggy, cold place.

    The quests could be for solo or groups.

    Even with no quest the three stats appear and you are forced to eat, drink and sleep.
    Last edited by Carallot; May 09 2019 at 09:55 AM.

  2. #2
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    Or, you could just play ARK: Survival
    “And some things that should not have been forgotten were lost. History became legend. Legend became myth. And for two and a half thousand years, the ring passed out of all knowledge.”
    ? J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elflord410 View Post
    Or, you could just play ARK: Survival
    Pretty much this or Conan Exiles. The type of game play the OP is suggesting just doesn't work good with MMOs, especially with a theme park MMO like LOTRO. and not only that, most MMOs are casual friendly, and LOTRO is more casual friendly than most.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
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  4. #4
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    I'm pretty sure I've played this Minecraft mod.

    Seriously, this is an entirely different game. It's one I would totally play, but it's not this game.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echoweaver View Post
    It's one I would totally play, but it's not this game.
    Same here. I play Conan Exiles a lot, which is pretty much what the OP wants. Great game, I love it.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    Same here. I play Conan Exiles a lot, which is pretty much what the OP wants. Great game, I love it.
    And I think that with HALF the effort they spent in Epic Battles or Mordor they can do an amazing job of something a lot of players would enjoy.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carallot View Post
    And I think that with HALF the effort they spent in Epic Battles or Mordor they can do an amazing job of something a lot of players would enjoy.
    Not with the player base here. LOTRO is casual, even by modern MMO standards. People get upset by mobs having an increase in hit points.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carallot View Post
    And I think that with HALF the effort they spent in Epic Battles or Mordor they can do an amazing job of something a lot of players would enjoy.
    Lotro is mainly a casual MMO, I don't think this would fly well here, I know it wouldn't for me and i'm sure many others in the player base.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Pontin_Finnberry View Post
    Lotro is mainly a casual MMO, I don't think this would fly well here, I know it wouldn't for me and i'm sure many others in the player base.
    The idea is that these stats would only apply in the survival area, the rest of areas would still be like they are now. Like Mordor with its special stat. Only maybe an epic quest would require it, the rest of quests would be receiving a wildcard item of reputation that the player may choose from a list of available in the area (nearby factions). The wildcard item value would be according to how good you have been doing it (how many survived, how much stuff was not lost, how many well located sleep point you found...).

    With this idea Lotro would have another flavour and would not suppose a huge balancing problem like other features in the game (Monster play...).

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carallot View Post
    With this idea Lotro would have another flavour and would not suppose a huge balancing problem like other features in the game (Monster play...).
    How dare you. HOW! DARE! YOU!

    Implying that Monster Play is a feature of the game, absolutely unbelievable. How do you sleep at night? Have you no shame?
    At least Monster Play belongs in this game, unlike what you proposed. Never compare your idea to PVMP ever again.

  11. #11
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    In principle I would like the idea, but it would require a complete revamp of LOTRO's system.

    • Currently baggage weight has no effort and therefore supplies are (almost) infinite. Games that use travel resource management require a malus for weight, e.g. like the fuel system in Elite Dangerous. Hyperspace jump fuel cost depends on ship mass which in term depends on transported fuel. Also combat maneuverability suffers. In LOTRO one could consider movement speed too.
    • The alternative is limited storage space that can only be used for special trail food, but this would also require to invalidate all other food stacks and make them "useless".
    • One could work on time dependent debuffs that just increase and cannot be cured at all. They only reset when leaving the area or visiting special spots (compare to cold debuff in Forochel). This could probably be used in future deserts.
    • With limited rersource and degraded movement speed, one could also use a buff that is dependent on ingame time and is stored/kept during logout. Don't log out if you are hungry and not in a camp. Movement could/should result in faster buff increase.
    • One could even consider multi-stage quests that require to generate depots or help one another (compare to Elite's fuel rats).


    But, as others pointed out, as interesting as the idea may be, this is not current LOTRO. It would require a major revamp of the game. Of course it would fit to the lore quite nicely (compare to Frodo and Sam), but this doesn't help.
    Last edited by thinx; May 13 2019 at 07:15 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pontin_Finnberry View Post
    Lotro is mainly a casual MMO, I don't think this would fly well here, I know it wouldn't for me and i'm sure many others in the player base.
    I am not so sure. First of all the definition of casual is one of skill and time that is used in a "one size fits all" way for all people that we like (or do not like). A system like the OP suggested is not even complex nor would it require skill. If made right, it could be consumed in in multiple days and it would fit nicely. The complexity is low anyway. Hungry? Eat. Long way? Take food with you. Forgot it? Defeat, rinse and repeat.
    The real problems are in implementation.

    The only problem I see would then be created with this system. Nice idea! How can we convert it to grind?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carallot View Post
    The idea is that these stats would only apply in the survival area, the rest of areas would still be like they are now. Like Mordor with its special stat. Only maybe an epic quest would require it, the rest of quests would be receiving a wildcard item of reputation that the player may choose from a list of available in the area (nearby factions). The wildcard item value would be according to how good you have been doing it (how many survived, how much stuff was not lost, how many well located sleep point you found...).

    With this idea Lotro would have another flavour and would not suppose a huge balancing problem like other features in the game (Monster play...).
    Nah, I'm not down with this at all, especially if it means the main player base missing out on content because of resources going to what is nothing more than a side show. And please. no more side shows being in the epic quest line. Skirmishes and big battles were bad enough.

    Ark Survival and Conan Exiles is over that way>>>>>>>>>>>>


    Speaking of Conan Exiles, I wish I could build structures with the same skill like other players do, what some of them do is just incredible.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by thinx View Post
    In principle I would like the idea, but it would require a complete revamp of LOTRO's system.

    • Currently baggage weight has no effort and therefore supplies are (almost) infinite. Games that use travel resource management require a malus for weight, e.g. like the fuel system in Elite Dangerous. Hyperspace jump fuel cost depends on ship mass which in term depends on transported fuel. Also combat maneuverability suffers. In LOTRO one could consider movement speed too.
    • The alternative is limited storage space that can only be used for special trail food, but this would also require to invalidate all other food stacks and make them "useless".
    • One could work on time dependent debuffs that just increase and cannot be cured at all. They only reset when leaving the area or visiting special spots (compare to cold debuff in Forochel). This could probably be used in future deserts.
    • With limited rersource and degraded movement speed, one could also use a buff that is dependent on ingame time and is stored/kept during logout. Don't log out if you are hungry and not in a camp. Movement could/should result in faster buff increase.
    • One could even consider multi-stage quests that require to generate depots or help one another (compare to Elite's fuel rats).


    But, as others pointed out, as interesting as the idea may be, this is not current LOTRO. It would require a major revamp of the game. Of course it would fit to the lore quite nicely (compare to Frodo and Sam), but this doesn't help.
    One option for weight is creating an "adventure bag" where weight counts (there is even a value indicating how much is weighting) and keeping the inventory locked while you are inside a Survival Area, so you must choose what you want to carry. They can add expansions for that bag that also reduce the base weight of it by paying Mithril. Or they simply can ignore weight (is Lotro, make it easy...). Outside the Survival Area the adventure bag is locked, only in a Vault-keeper NPC you can open both. Not all items can go to the bag, so by default all items in the game are "out" of it except for food, drink, campfire kit and the other that SSG may think is good to have.

    Race may have some nice additions, like elves not needing special shoes, dwarves being more resilient, hobbits being sneaky but consuming lots of food, beornings being the best while in bear-form (for once in something...).

    Milestone skills I think should be locked (except maybe for VIPs) when you are in a survival quest inside the corresponding survival area, but a recall skill in a floating bar could be added.

    For these areas some special items like "armour repair kit" (or simply the actual mithril system, so more $$ for SSG) and similar may be sold by special vendors in towns near the limit of the area, plus in there is where you found the quest givers and everything. The area itself IMO should be as empty and huge as possible.

    In general I only see small complexity additions, item re-usage (even pipe-weed could have some effects making it useful against mirages) and adding a few in-screen player effects (like when you are drunk, feeling dread... Adding dusty eyes because of sand, blurry vision caused by snow, drunk-like state because of excessive hunger or thirst or fatigue... ). Forochel cold in a more extreme way could be added, especially if you fall in water after breaking some ice where a current is visible underneath. Maximum zoom also should be locked in a more "near" level (as opposed of what happens when you are using a war-steed).

    Finally another nice addition could be that in places where a player "dies" the adventure bag itself appears and what he or she put there is lost, even while finding it a faded name of the player may appear.
    Last edited by Carallot; May 16 2019 at 06:00 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by thinx View Post
    I am not so sure. First of all the definition of casual is one of skill and time that is used in a "one size fits all" way for all people that we like (or do not like). A system like the OP suggested is not even complex nor would it require skill. If made right, it could be consumed in in multiple days and it would fit nicely. The complexity is low anyway. Hungry? Eat. Long way? Take food with you. Forgot it? Defeat, rinse and repeat.
    The real problems are in implementation.

    The only problem I see would then be created with this system. Nice idea! How can we convert it to grind?
    That's not the only meaning of 'casual' in the context, there's also how punitive the game system is. In a 'casual' RPG, you typically don't have to attend to a character's physical needs such as food and water, and healing is trivialised. In a less casual game, those become concerns and you may get debuffs if you neglect them. In a 'hardcore' RPG you can starve, die of thirst and so on, healing takes time and wounds can get infected if they're not treated properly, etc. (so your character can survive a fight only to die slowly later, oh what fun).

    Given how determinedly casual the game mechanics of LOTRO are in that respect, it'd be a bit odd to go straight to featuring survival mechanics all of a sudden. You'd expect to see a whole bunch of other less casual game mechanics first: encumbrance, stamina, durability and so on as well as realistic travel and those would make for a very different and much slower-paced game. Survival mechanics would be another layer on top of that, with even more for the player to have to worry about (so you have to worry about carrying enough food and water etc. rather than just your equipment and whatever loot you've managed to lay your hands on).

    The reason that MMOs do *not* typically have any of that is because as the genre now exists it's overwhelmingly aimed at a mass audience who typically want the fast paced kill monster - get treasure and XP - rinse and repeat style of gameplay which typifies action-RPGs rather than any sort of serious RPG mechanics (much less the actively hostile mechanics typical of the survival genre).

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    That's not the only meaning of 'casual' in the context, there's also how punitive the game system is.
    The questions there are still the chances for punishment (what is it that you need to take into account), the cost of punishment (how important is it to get to pre-punishment state) and the time to recover to pre-punishment state. This means we have 3 control options that can be balanced to get a system that is more complex, but does not require that much time.

 

 

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