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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post

    - I am considering shifting the skills back to fast. In theory I don't really think you're going to see as much difference as you think you will because for most skills the execution times have been shortened to match the existing animation times - and Fast doesn't DO anything in that circumstance - but for the same reason it may not be a big deal to change it back. <shrug>
    Please do it - male hobbit burg felt so clunky compared to live. There definitely is a noticeable difference. When executing my regular live server rotation I would accidently skip several skills because of the sudden delay on some - I'm trusting my muscle memory here
    Dobb - Hobbit Burglar
    Thar - Dwarf Guardian
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    [DE-RP]Belegaer
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  2. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by luckygirl1 View Post
    Please, I am begging at this point. Look at the hobbit burglar animations. Put all burglar animations on the same speed and framerate as a human male burglar.

    Skills like Feint attack, Gambler's Advantage, coup de grace, and especially double edged strike and flashing blades which are significantly slower.
    Quote Originally Posted by luckygirl1 View Post
    Animations....ive got my copy and paste ready to go for this one.....Please, take some time to look and compare the differences between playing a male / female hobbit burglar against a human male burglar. Skills like Double Edged Strike, cunning attack, flashing blades, exposed throat, disable, enrage, CDG, provoke, all are significantly slower in animation time versus their human counterparts. I am only asking that you fix the animation / frame rates of the hobbit burglar to be on the same par as a human male burglar.

    This doesn't seem to have been looked at, at all. Since the animations havent been fixed on a hobbit plus taking away Fast from the skills. A hobbit burglar is even more slow and clunkier than they ever were.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snobs View Post
    It is worth mentioning that only Human Male is the one race/gender that has different animations for DES and FB.

    Female Human, Female Hobbit and Male Hobbit have the same animation/execution for DES and FB.

    This should be looked at.
    Quote Originally Posted by random_player_897469 View Post
    Yes, yes, yes, Vastin, please take a look at this! Right now I don't even want to play my hobbit burg, knowing how much slower he is than a human burg would be...


    For how many months and years in how many threads has this been asked to look at?... Yet it hasn't been fixed and hasn't even been acknowledged. It's so disheartening I truly have no words. If it doesn't get fixed now when Vastin is working on the burg, it's safe to assume it will never be fixed. SSG why do you let a situation exist where some characters are so much slower and weaker than others just because of their race and gender choice? Why do you put your players at a disadvantage so badly they don't even feel like playing the class? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why am I still even playing and paying for this bugfest of a game instead of moving on to a game whose developers care and can?

  3. #78
    I just want to play my hobbit burg and I don't want to be slower and clunkier and do less dps just because it's not a male human burg. Is some fairness too much to ask?

  4. #79
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    Lightbulb

    No time for either my Son or myself to test anything during 1 day/night during the week. He has school etc and I have to bring in the cash. Shame, as I know he in particular wanted to test the Burglar as that used to be his main character and have parked it due to it being so NERFed as of late. He used to enjoy playing a Blue Burglar. Oh well.

  5. #80
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    The dps nerf is fine vastin, honestly idk why you're giving burgs dps in the first place they are a support class. The way you should've looked at their place in group content should've been how they stack up against the other debuffing/ buffing classes and you should've improved yellow line to match with them so burgs could be taken to 3-6 man content, but whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fingerz View Post
    Why is the ability to out of stealth twice or get a get a percentage morale heal more than once every 5 minutes OP in PvE? (I see your tag is a rk, whats the cool down on self motivation?)
    Again you seem to be mixing the pvp and pve scenarios from my perspective
    When talking about whats op and whats not, bringing up rks self motivation (or rks in general) is probably not the best idea xD. Anyway the cd is 15 seconds and that's op af and should be nerfed almost to the ground, the whole idea of percentage heals being so wide spread is so stupid. Also you forgot about all the other buffs touch and go gives not to mention you undervalue going in stealth in combat....a lot lmao

    Quote Originally Posted by Seekwan View Post

    I think most of the complaints of needing to nerf ready and able/touch and go are coming from people who don't play burg, or only have burg as an alt, or play as a creep, and think only in the concept of these skills, not in the reality of the class.
    Burglar is incredibly squishy, even 'roll with it' or whatever it's called doesn't mitigate this fact by a lot. And if you're talking about it being OP in the moors, try actually playing burglar there and see how it actually is, this god of a class notion you have couldn't be further from the truth.

    From this statement it seems you don't play burg at all either, or if you do, play it very badly xD

    Quote Originally Posted by Seekwan View Post
    is it right for me to say SF's needs it's cd extended because on paper it gives it too much sustained power over time? I know nothing about how nuances of this class, and my uninformed opinion does nothing but hinder the attempts to improve it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seekwan View Post

    If you know this little about the class then sure don't comment on it but don't imply that only mains of classes can speak on the topic.
    Estarossa, Rank 15 rune-keeper, Ark

  6. #81
    Vastin, please just be frank with us and tell us: "Yes, we realize and acknowledge that male and female hobbit burgs and female human burgs have much longer animations for many skills and thus are much slower and do considerably less dps than male human burgs. Yes, we do realize and acknowledge it but we have no intention of fixing it." Please just be honest with us so we are not left hanging and waiting for years to come! Or please acknowledge it and please give us a time frame when this will be fixed.

  7. #82
    Most entertaining to see burglar mains lobbying for their class to be as overpowered as Vastin will allow (with, to their credit, some exceptions), while the rest of the world tries to explain that this has gone way overboard.

    Burglars do not need ST DPS that is stronger than a champion's, while having the largest assortment of defensive skills of any class (indeed, larger than that of tanks), while bringing more utility than most DPS classes.

    And please remove this archaic skill called "Ready and Able". God knows how that made it through the ability purge that happened going into U12.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
    Also known as Giliodor

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by random_player_897469 View Post
    Vastin, please just be frank with us and tell us: "Yes, we realize and acknowledge that male and female hobbit burgs and female human burgs have much longer animations for many skills and thus are much slower and do considerably less dps than male human burgs. Yes, we do realize and acknowledge it but we have no intention of fixing it." Please just be honest with us so we are not left hanging and waiting for years to come! Or please acknowledge it and please give us a time frame when this will be fixed.
    Yep. It's important. Game doesn't even give the ability to race change. Burglar class is a homage to Bilbo, no? Stuff anyone for rolling a Hobbit Burg, I guess.

    Worth noting Burg isn't only class with these kind of issues, too. Play a High Elf Champ vs Dwarf Champ and despair at how much DPS you gain from High Elf animations.

  9. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    Most entertaining to see burglar mains lobbying for their class to be as overpowered as Vastin will allow (with, to their credit, some exceptions), while the rest of the world tries to explain that this has gone way overboard.

    Burglars do not need ST DPS that is stronger than a champion's, while having the largest assortment of defensive skills of any class (indeed, larger than that of tanks), while bringing more utility than most DPS classes.

    And please remove this archaic skill called "Ready and Able". God knows how that made it through the ability purge that happened going into U12.
    Red burg should be together with red champ top tier dps.

    ABOVE rk and hunter.

    Since red champ is quite weak compared to them currently is most fights burg need dps compared to hunter in my opinion.

    And yeah ready and able needs to go 100%!

  10. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by OdysseyEvernight View Post
    Red burg should be together with red champ top tier dps.
    Yes, because they are both severely punished for being melee classes. However, burglars currently have much more than necessary in every single regard.

    Burglars want equal ST DPS to that of champions? Fine, but remove their insane defensives, or nerf them heavily. Also, if their ST DPS is going to be equal, should they have very strong 3-target AoE DPS simultaneously? I don't think so. But either way, this is far too much, and I'm sure you agree with that, I just wanted to clarify.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
    Also known as Giliodor

  11. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by sahanto View Post
    Also you forgot about all the other buffs touch and go gives not to mention you undervalue going in stealth in combat....a lot lmao
    I just think you're over cooking the impact of an ability to allow x2 from stealth attack in combat every 5 minutes as opposed to x1, same for Touch and go; burg can heal 50% morale and raise mitigation x2 times instead of just the once in 5 minutes.

    I'm solely speaking from an Instance playing PvE perspective, bar it from the Ettenmoors by all means

    Strictly speaking I think Ready and Able is used mostly for resetting CJ/Exploit opening on the whole, especially with current Anvil Raid.
    Last edited by Fingerz; Apr 12 2019 at 06:17 PM.
    lil 'obbit of Evernight...

    The Ascensio, Chaos Unbound, Paradox, Silent Paths, Ascension, Bonehunters, Legion of the Valar

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fingerz View Post
    I just think you're over cooking the impact of an ability to allow x2 from stealth attack in combat every 5 minutes as opposed to x1, same for Touch and go; burg can heal 50% morale and raise mitigation x2 times instead of just the once in 5 minutes.

    I'm solely speaking from an Instance playing PvE perspective, bar it from the Ettenmoors by all means
    On a dps class the ability to be void of any aggro for even a second is incredibly valuable, not to mention twice now you can just avoid things happening to you. The ability to heal 50% of your morale on any skill on any dps class is absolutely terrible design.
    Estarossa, Rank 15 rune-keeper, Ark

  13. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by canyouaddcolour View Post
    Yep. It's important. Game doesn't even give the ability to race change. Burglar class is a homage to Bilbo, no? Stuff anyone for rolling a Hobbit Burg, I guess.

    Worth noting Burg isn't only class with these kind of issues, too. Play a High Elf Champ vs Dwarf Champ and despair at how much DPS you gain from High Elf animations.
    I even made a man burglar at this point cus attack animation timers between races are so different ... Something worth noting too is that some very old coding seems to still be in the game, cus daggers feels faster than for example maces on live man burglar.

    Dwarf champions are indeed totally scuffed on animations compared to man/elf/high elf. Feels like you're playing 2 different classes pretty much...
    Thonras r13/r10 Blackarrow - Erenthenn r11/r8 Hunter - Seodric r11/r5 Burglar - Seorric r9 Champion - Grusnash r9 Reaver - Nomno r8 Warg - Durumdor r7 RK - Carranham r6 Captain
    Original Challenger of Gothmog and Original Challenger of The Abyss - The Bandits Laurelin - Odyssey Evernight

  14. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by sahanto View Post
    On a dps class the ability to be void of any aggro for even a second is incredibly valuable, not to mention twice now you can just avoid things happening to you. The ability to heal 50% of your morale on any skill on any dps class is absolutely terrible design.
    The mitigation and 50% heal aspect was only recently introduced; around the time Anvil was released to mitigate the various big boss AE hits or Dragon Eyes

    A morale pot serves just as well but without the mitigation and morale from touch and go heal burgs would be dropping like flies in raids.
    lil 'obbit of Evernight...

    The Ascensio, Chaos Unbound, Paradox, Silent Paths, Ascension, Bonehunters, Legion of the Valar

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fingerz View Post
    The mitigation and 50% heal aspect was only recently introduced; around the time Anvil was released to mitigate the various big boss AE hits or Dragon Eyes
    Yes that's specifically what i have a problem with, though the 50% evade was op as well....

    Quote Originally Posted by Fingerz View Post
    A morale pot serves just as well but without the mitigation and morale from touch and go heal burgs would be dropping like flies in raids.
    What...
    Btw morale pots aren't 50% on a burg or even a dps class, if they are for you I think you need to take a look at your build again, this might be the reason you are dying to stupid mechanics xD
    Estarossa, Rank 15 rune-keeper, Ark

  16. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by sahanto View Post
    When talking about whats op and whats not, bringing up rks self motivation (or rks in general) is probably not the best idea xD. Anyway the cd is 15 seconds and that's op af and should be nerfed almost to the ground, the whole idea of percentage heals being so wide spread is so stupid. Also you forgot about all the other buffs touch and go gives not to mention you undervalue going in stealth in combat....a lot lmao
    You DO understand that redline rk is a class with light armor, little crowd control and long inductions, right?

    Nerfing selfmotivation "into the ground" would literally ruin red rks for solo/small group pvp. the squishier, less mobile a class is and the less cc it has the more self healing it needs to be viable

    Apart from that, if you view RK damage as OP I suggest you play with better Hunters and Champs, because good Hunters/Champs outdps RKs

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    You DO understand that redline rk is a class with light armor, little crowd control and long inductions, right?
    Nerfing selfmotivation "into the ground" would literally ruin red rks for solo/small group pvp. the squishier, less mobile a class is and the less cc it has the more self healing it needs to be viable
    Ok first of all I want to reiterate on what I meant. I meant nerf it to the ground for the red line rks, I don't mind if the healing aspects of it went to yellow line as that is the solo line, however implying that the roal of rks in small groups in pvp would be ruined because of an sf change is hilarious.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    Apart from that, if you view RK damage as OP I suggest you play with better Hunters and Champs, because good Hunters/Champs outdps RKs
    No I wasn't going to say the damage was op, I was specifically referring to their dnf and debuffing capabilities.
    Estarossa, Rank 15 rune-keeper, Ark

  18. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by sahanto View Post
    Yes that's specifically what i have a problem with, though the 50% evade was op as well....


    What...
    Btw morale pots aren't 50% on a burg or even a dps class, if they are for you I think you need to take a look at your build again, this might be the reason you are dying to stupid mechanics xD
    Im not dieing as I have a skill I use proactivly to mitigate an unavoidable large tactical damage hit..a skill you seem to be advocating needs to go or be nerfed.

    Im sure your fellow burgs appreciate your sentiment.

    Still cant shake the feeling you are fed up trying to solo a burg in ettens ...
    lil 'obbit of Evernight...

    The Ascensio, Chaos Unbound, Paradox, Silent Paths, Ascension, Bonehunters, Legion of the Valar

  19. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Fingerz View Post
    Im not dieing as I have a skill I use proactivly to mitigate an unavoidable large tactical damage hit..a skill you seem to be advocating needs to go or be nerfed.

    Im sure your fellow burgs appreciate your sentiment.

    Still cant shake the feeling you are fed up trying to solo a burg in ettens ...
    So, do champions not need the exact same thing? As it stands, they're squishier than burglars. They have one pathetic defensive that is Fight On, and it is absolutely garbage. It is literally useless in raids. And yet, champions are currently viable.

    So... perhaps burglars do not, in fact, need any sort of defensives to be viable. Especially not this version of Knives Out.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
    Also known as Giliodor

  20. #95
    The old version of evade was fine. 50% evade with ready and able was already strong, really really strong.
    Now its a 50% heal and 15% mit boost. for real....
    Even the new changes of knives out are fine if ready and able is getting removed.

    my main concern:
    @ Vastin
    WHY DONT WE GET THE OLD TRICK COUNTER DEFENCE BACK ? (3% inc melee crit chance,6% if traited)

    This would fix yellow line nearly alone....

    Where is the 5-6 target trickster?

  21. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post

    - I am considering shifting the skills back to fast. In theory I don't really think you're going to see as much difference as you think you will because for most skills the execution times have been shortened to match the existing animation times - and Fast doesn't DO anything in that circumstance - but for the same reason it may not be a big deal to change it back. <shrug>
    Please do that. It feels so clunky.
    Last edited by Ranmazu; Apr 12 2019 at 08:54 PM.
    Lvl 120 LM - Estefhania (former Kihrin) || Lvl 120 Runekeeper - Ranmazu || Lvl 120 Champ - Braxer || Lvl 120 Minstrel - Estebaan
    Original Challenger of the Abyss

  22. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by sahanto View Post
    The dps nerf is fine vastin, honestly idk why you're giving burgs dps in the first place they are a support class. The way you should've looked at their place in group content should've been how they stack up against the other debuffing/ buffing classes and you should've improved yellow line to match with them so burgs could be taken to 3-6 man content, but whatever.


    Lol I think you just proved my point on know it all edgelords, chiming in cause they been raid leader a couple times. Yellow line is useful only when there's enough dps to benefit from the debuffs it provides, this is one of the basic things, anyone who's spent a hour on yellow would comprehend, exactly how do you make a yellow line burg more viable, or let's say sought out for in glimmer, when you can take a hunter? You're essentially asking for burglars to stick to one role, debuffing, which is pretty rich coming from a rk. I mean, it's not like 2/3 of our trait lines are designed to deal damage or anything, right?

    But please, continue to quote me and say I must not know burglar because I said something you failed to understand, and then proceed to not give any legitimate reason to back your statement. You're clearly the most informed and intelligent person here, please guide us lowly simpletons.

  23. #98
    It is great that red burglar is going to be a viable DD again, but please, for the sake of all non buglar players, nerf the defensive abilities and the burst. They are almost useless in instances but broken in the moors. Alternatively disable some skills in the moors.

  24. #99
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    Aug 2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Hey folks! Thanks for all the responses. I'm going through and thinking about which bits I need to tackle before it goes live.

    - Probably need to bring the DPS down from the current build a bit. I want it high, but I think it's a little over the top right now, especially as other bug fixes enter the picture.

    - I've got a fix for the evade>crit blue line bug already lined up, as well as a number of others.

    - I'm going to leave knives out where it is. I'm sure that most people will learn to use it effectively, now that its mitigation is universal and quite potent.

    - The heal from Mischievous Glee ended up being a hot for some strange reason. I think I got my wires crossed with the Cash Out hot when I was updating its implementation - anyway, it is going back to being just an instant heal, though a fairly strong one. (the power benefit is still a PoT effect)

    - Overall self healing in blue may be a little too strong atm, so I have to consider that.

    - I am considering shifting the skills back to fast. In theory I don't really think you're going to see as much difference as you think you will because for most skills the execution times have been shortened to match the existing animation times - and Fast doesn't DO anything in that circumstance - but for the same reason it may not be a big deal to change it back. <shrug>

    Oh, someone was asking about Gamble payouts. They're a little buggy right now if you have two burgs interacting, but I have a fix for that lined up. Cash Out is supposed to consume all the gambles on the target, producing a different payout effect for each one. (damage, stun, HoT)

    Right now the magnitude of the payouts is not dependent on the tier of the Gamble, which isn't how I envisioned it, but is where it's stuck for the time being. Doing the version where you get tiered payouts is rather performance intensive, so I'm avoiding that until I get some better tech for it - so for the time being you're generally better off cashing out your lower gambles before replacing them with (hopefully) better ones.

    -Vastin
    It's nice to have some discussion about the changes by you, Vastin. Keep in mind that the damage numbers and parses that you've seen (including my own) are potentially a bit misleading when comparing against other DPS classes. Runekeeper and Hunter DPS are both greatly strengthened by Loremaster and Runekeeper -Fire Mitigation and Armor Debuffs. Burglar also has Reveal Weakness which will result in High DPS tests on DPS testing dummies but in all Group/Raid situations, every other DPS class will also be affected by Reveal Weakness. Also, all of these tests were done with 100% positional damage which is also not the case for every fight. So, having high DPS as Burglar does not necessarily mean that Burglar will perform the best in Boss fights. That being said, I think decreasing DPS by 5-10% would be more than enough.

    Please give us the Fast-trait on skills back. Not only is it fitting for the Burglar Class (Lore-wise) to attack fast but it also seriously impacts gameplay and unnecessarily adds clunkiness to the DPS rotation. It adds some serious delays between Skills especially when using Immediate skills. This is very unfun.

    Mischievous Glee always was a HoT? It was even written in the Preview Notes that it will heal 2% every pulse. Also, are you aware that the Legendary Item Attribute +Mischievous Glee Healing is not functioning properly since this change?

    There are also some other things/bugs that you might want to address/consider:
    1. Flashing Blades secondary hit and Gambler's Advantage currently don't give a Critical Response upon Critical/Devastating Hit.
    2. Flashing Blades secondary Critical Hit has been fixed but secondary Devastating Hits are still way to low.
    3. Human Male Burglar has different animations on Flashing Blades compared to Human Female, Hobbit Male and Hobbit Female.
    4. Cunning Attack DoT is fairly weak/meaningless now.
    5. (Stealthed) Surprise Strike is worse than (Stealthed) Provoke in every way. Maybe add a secondary effect to Surprise Strike or increase its damage somehow.
    Last edited by Snobs; Apr 12 2019 at 09:05 PM.

  25. #100
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    299

    Post


    Sorry, the issue with human animation variations was already discussed extensively on Palantir, so I didn't think to bring it up here.

    I can't personally rework character animations unfortunately, so I have a task in for our animators to correct the issue, but I don't have a timeline for that as they're currently tied up in other tasks.

    I do bug them about it, but that's all I can do.

    - Vastin

 

 
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