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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    just that lotro goes away from classes that only do one thing and tries to put higher priority on roles instead...
    every class in lotro can do some CC
    every class in lotro can, with certain equipment, survive a lot of damage
    every class in lotro can be good in DPS

    sure, a class that cant do anything else but dps should excel there. but such a class does not exist.

    and even if it should be the best... that doesnt state the margin by how much. A class can be the best at something and still be irrelevant, because everyone else is 1% behind while offering other benefits.

    cc hasn't been a required role in some time and hunter cc has hardly been considered critical to a groups success.

    there will always be best and worst in any given role. these games have (de)volved to just be the simply holy trinity of healer, tank, dps. in this game you also have the rarely needed b ut nice to have debuffer role. since the hunter can't tank, can't heal anyone except themselves and isn't a debuffer, what they do have left they should be damned good at.

  2. #202
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    I play mainly a hunter. Have thought about rolling a baby burg so the burg updates have had interest to me. Imo, all classes should have a viable dps option, I guess the definition is what is viable? If utility classes like cappies and LM's had just as good as dps as hunters, hunters are not going to get invites since the only thing that hunters can do well is pure ranged dps. Having said that, I wouldn't want other support classes dps builds to be so under performing that, say on a friendly t1 kin run, a dps orientated LM or other support class could not contribute towards dps for casual t1 content.

    One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet in this discussion is the massive DPS adjustment that took place in a major lotro patch in the last year or so. Forgot the patch #, it basically took dps classes that had 400k physical master and balanced it to 200k physical master so that the dps classes did not completely outclass the dps of non dps classes. Here's the intro post by Vastin -- https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...alance-Changes Here's Vastin's quote:

    "So, now let me take a minute to explain the Mastery change:

    Mastery was causing a number of problems.

    It created a very large disparity between the damage output of DPS builds vs non-DPS builds. Sure it's fine for the DPS to hit harder than everyone else - but not several times harder. It made it difficult to scale mob health correctly. If we made it high enough to avoid being one-shotted by the DPS, then it made leveling on landscape annoyingly slow for everyone else. This is the most important reason for the change."

    I'm not complaining about that change, and dps classes seem to be in much demand as ever. But it would imho be a mistake to overlook the massive re-balance in dps that occurred last year when discussing the dps of non-dps-centered classes versus those of dps-centered classes.

    Also, if burgs had equal dps to hunters, I'd sure love to have stealth and their survival skills, just sayin.....
    other favorite middle-earth games: The One Ring RPG by Cubicle 7; LotR: The Card Game by FFG; Hobbit/LotR Strategy Battle Game by GW

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Teyaha View Post
    cc hasn't been a required role in some time and hunter cc has hardly been considered critical to a groups success.

    there will always be best and worst in any given role. these games have (de)volved to just be the simply holy trinity of healer, tank, dps. in this game you also have the rarely needed b ut nice to have debuffer role. since the hunter can't tank, can't heal anyone except themselves and isn't a debuffer, what they do have left they should be damned good at.
    Hunters have quite a lot of debuffs. Too many to simply deny their existence. Its just that hunters mostly profit from their own debuffs the most, while other classes provide debuffs that are good for anyone or at least more classes. Some hunters debuffs are even clearly OP, like the incoming critchance for ranged attacks (although that one should be switched with yellow "armour rend" and halved in potency).
    If the debuffs of the "Master Trapper" trait were more easily available and possible to sustain, those alone would give yellow hunters a space in raids as an offensive debuffer, which would give them a second role and yellow-line a purpose. (Obviously, the focus is on +15% damage and +10% critchance here, as that heal is laughably bad.) Those debuffs are not easily accessible, but they still exist.
    And if an enemy can be slowed, there is no class with a more potent slow than hunters.

    Sure, most CC does not work where it would be nice to have it and therefore, you can simply call it irrelevant. Still, hunters have more CC than some other classes and in the old ages, a yellow hunters CC could replace a LMs CC. Even range and mobility could be a good enough reason to allow champions to be better in pure DPS races than hunters. No one calls champions tank, really. If you declare that yellow line is irrelevant as support, then the same is true for champs blue-line.
    Then, you compare hunters and champs who both cant do anything but dps and one is melee and the other ranged. With combat mechanics as they are, that should clearly give champs higher dps than hunters.

    Quote Originally Posted by mr_toad View Post
    Also, if burgs had equal dps to hunters, I'd sure love to have stealth and their survival skills, just sayin.....
    You do have stealth as hunter and even more as elf You just dont get combat bonusses from it. Burgs only need their survival skills (and I agree those are too good), because they need to be in melee all the time and cant simply avoid most damage by being far away. I'd like it, if combat mechanics in instances changed and not anymore punished melees heavily while giving ranged characters a free glass-canon-pass. I'd like it, if every DPSer could run glass-canon without issues as I could in the good old times of classic and BC WoW. Yet, thats not how lotro runs. Your range IS a lot of survival in most situations!
    Last edited by Oelle; Apr 23 2019 at 11:02 AM.
    Diskutierer, Fragenbeantworter, Twinker, Händler, Handwerker und Gründer der 'Gemeinschaft der freien Völker' auf Belegaer.
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  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Teyaha View Post
    actually the person you quoted is correct. your feelings or beliefs do not apply. this is not a matter of fake news. this is how mmorpgs and muds have been designed for three decades. the pure dps class that has no other function in a group other than to reduce an enemies hp to zero is expected to be the best at that role. it has always been this way.
    It isn't a case of opinion. Hunter has more than one role. Hunter has two dps lines and one support line. The yellow hunter could/should be the competitor to the red cappy in terms of what the skills can do but right now cc is stressed too much in the build and group buffs/debuffs too little. Yellow hunter really needs a rebuild to make it group friendly. Since blue hunter was kneecapped in the name of "survivabiity" it's approxiamtely 0.7 of a dps line, so hunter has 1.7 dps lines and 1.0 support lines. Blue hunter and yellow RK are approximately both 0.7 dps lines, so RK also has 1.7 dps lines and 1.0 heal line.

    But champion has 2 full dps lines and 1 tank line, and warden has 2 full dps lines (one is ranged) and one tank line. So by your backward logic champion and warden should always have better dps than hunter and RK. But because of developer neglect neither of these two classes are viable for any of their roles except as a charity carry.

    But of course this makes no sense. All dps classes should have top dps. And people should really stop living in the past with those old pre-traitline roles. The trait lines are the (not so) new roles that each class has and development should recognize and support those roles for all classes.

  5. #205
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    The Shire
    Oh great lets balance our minds and the whole world WHILE we talk about a PC game (note it is a niche called "PC games" largerly "news" 12 years ago -that is like 1000 years ago in otherwise human history when talking "information technology").

    So we talk about Hunters, Champions, LM & RK, wardens and I should say not enough about all others.
    -BUT this is thread about current Burglar Class Changes, thank you very much.
    Oh, and I have a hunter and champion above 100 and my main is Burglar that in the world of LOTRO is hard to play.

    Below is a cross post of my comments about some of the changes. It is cross posted BECAUSE this thread does not even come up in my search when i use search function of the whole(?) forums and type: Burglar

    I had to go through all forums and scroll around to find this (as most active and with a dev taking part) most important change related thread.

  6. #206
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    The Shire
    Quote Originally Posted by U23.5 Release Notes (Burglar): View Post

    Here are the Release Notes for Update 23.5, released on Tuesday, April 23rd.


    The overall goal is to increase the Burglar's

    general damage output,

    fix some structural issues with their skills,

    improve their group survivability,

    and streamline some of their play.

    Thank you for the large scope of the effort.
    DPS, - Thumbs up.

    Structure, -it's a complex class, please continue making it, it's well worth it.

    Survivability, -The healing from actual healing in yellow line got some good work, it is possible to use now. - Good. Similar attention must be applied to healing from Blue line traits (on evade) and Red Line traits (on crit hit) obviously it should be self only and possibly less then yellow line, but it should not tick in at rate of 123 morale points per 4 sec ever. At level 120 these type of numbers are not even a joke, they are just wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by U23.5 Release Notes (Burglar): View Post

    Damage on most skills has been increased and shuffled in an attempt to put more skills in a more appropriate range of DPS.
    All melee skills have had their range increased to a minimum of 3.5.
    Most of the Burglar's skills have had their "Fast" trait removed, but this only really had an effect when the prior skill had an execution time longer than its animation time.
    Subtle Stab is still "Fast" so you can more easily see which skills are being shortened.
    Double Edged Strike is now an immediate skill.
    Find Footing is now Instant.
    Provoke now has a 15 meter range and a six second cooldown.
    Provoke now provides a 20% crit chance bonus on your next attack, similar to a lesser "aim" effect.
    Provoke provides a stacking (x3) self buff that halves the damage of the next attack against you.
    Provoke no longer penalizes your party's crit chance against the target by 2%.
    Mischievous Glee now heals for 10% of max health.
    Self Adulation now adds 20% to Clever Retort healing.

    Please address healing in other 2 trait lines as at level 120 it should be a completely different set of numbers.

    Blue line has this interesting relationship to Evades:

    through traits: Stick and Move & Bob and Weave

    then through Gambler Essence: https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Ite...of_the_Gambler
    -Blue line and Evades just fit together nicely.

    Same as Red Line and Crit Hits: https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Relish_Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by U23.5 Release Notes (Burglar): View Post

    Both Double Edged Strike and Flashing Blades are now area of effect skills (3 targets).
    Coup de Gras no longer has a critical magnitude bonus, but does better base damage.
    Its cooldown has been reduced from sixty to thirty seconds.

    -I can not understand what this is all about and why.
    This is same as not understanding why some people were all the time demanding for this skill to be taken out.
    I will exaggerate if I say that half of the Red Trait Tree Line is all about crit hits and crit hit magnitude but it is the idea, isn't it?

    Then we have a legacy:


    And with half the people in the game complaining that maxing out their legendary items takes a long time,
    to remove one out that assuming most DPS Burglars had maxed, well. PLEASE LOOK INTO THIS.

    Changing this legacy or rethinking what to do with CDG and / or possibly not removing & restoring it's dependence on Crit Magnitude has to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by U23.5 Release Notes (Burglar): View Post

    Feint now allows you to trigger more stealth effects and bonuses of other skills, though it still does not provide true stealth's melee damage bonus.
    Knives Out has been changed to provide a small radius Force Taunt that lasts for the duration of the effect, followed by an aggro dump that reduces aggro in a similar radius.
    Knives Out now mitigates all forms of incoming damage, instead of just melee damage. Damage reduction has been increased from 80% to 85%.
    Cunning Strike bleeds are now shorter duration non-stacking bleeds that apply at four different magnitudes, depending on how hard you crit +1 from stealth.

    Please rethink why would some one "Taking their knives out" would need a "small radius Force Taunt". As it was thought of this should be a defence skill not a tanking skill at all. In a nutshell when you take knives out but your opponent forgets about you and starts attacking a Guardian (for example) you just breate a sigh of relieve.

    Quote Originally Posted by U23.5 Release Notes (Burglar): View Post

    Cunning Strike Bleed duration has been reduced.
    Gambles have been substantially reworked.
    You can now have one gamble of each type on a target simultaneously.
    The skills Gambler's Strike, Hedge Your Bet, and Blind Bet now apply each of these gambles respectively.
    A blue line Burglar stealth surprise attack will apply a random gamble.
    Gambles can no longer be tiered up or down, and simply roll a new 1-6 value when re-applied.
    Gambles now last a base 30 seconds.
    Cash Out consumed all Gambles on a target, granting a high magnitude damage effect, a self heal over time, and a stun, respectively.
    Cash Out's cooldown is now a base of 40 seconds.
    Note: Gambles are NOT per Burglar, but rather per Target, so competing Burglars will overwrite or consume each other's Gambles.
    Gamble icons have been changed.
    Subtle Stab's cooldown has been reduced to 2.5 seconds.
    Gamble Chance mods have been changed to Gamble Damage mods.

    Known Issues:

    The buffs received from the blue line Burglar trait 'Even the Odds' are not currently stacking.
    Vigilant/Thunderous Roar legacy is not providing correct Incoming Healing increase yet.
    The yellow line Burglar trait Self Adulation incorrectly states that it adds +5 pulses to Mischievous Glee.
    Thanks for updating our class, perhaps it's good to log back in to check it out. While the update does not seem big or complete, it is good, thanks again.

  7. #207
    This development cycle is a joke. You release a BR build for testing, ask for feedback, and then release the changes on the live servers without further tuning.

    And now, you've successfully made burglars the strongest single target DPS in the game, with (by far) the strongest defensives in the game. No doubt, burglars are celebrating. But those who can actually look at this objectively will very quickly come to the conclusion that what you've done here is unhealthy for the game, and the exact opposite of what a balance patch is meant to achieve.

    I hope that the only reason why these changes went live so early, is because you were pushed to release it along with the anniversary, and that you intend to further iterate on this. The DPS needs to be brought down, as well as the survivability. At the very least, reduce one of the two.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
    Also known as Giliodor

  8. #208
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    The Shire
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Hey folks! Thanks for all the responses. I'm going through and thinking about which bits I need to tackle before it goes live.

    - Probably need to bring the DPS down from the current build a bit. I want it high, but I think it's a little over the top right now, especially as other bug fixes enter the picture.

    Tracked this earlier post because some one was talking about this on the other thread.

    The class is on the road to become playable again. But wait we were given a carrot? Stick is next?

    Are you actively working on making some people quit the game?

    In regards to the recent rework and possible decrease in DPS:

    Burglar is the only really class with these power and negativity connotations. As a result people LOVE to hate the whole class.

    Currently burg is not slow or clunky. (it was before) As this update has increased the DPS and speed the class is a pleasure to play.

    To nerf it now is absurd. We are NOT hunters, all the same, just as before. And even as we were told that our DPS will be similar, well it is not and we have to run to be within range of the target while hunter can run to be OUT of the range of the target. These two things put together (meaning our DPS is not as hard hitting as Hunters and we are melee range) I would request another look at healing: From evades in Blue and Crit hits in Red. (Yellow line is doing good with healing)

    Then if people make a choice to build glass cannons as a melee class. Well they are not to be considered seriously, it's a play style when some one counts on never getting hit, even in a long boss fight. They get their "nerf" when they do get hit, trust me.

    So, I seriously hope that no nerf will happen.

  9. #209
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    The Shire
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Hey folks! Thanks for all the responses. I'm going through and thinking about which bits I need to tackle before it goes live.

    - The heal from Mischievous Glee ended up being a hot for some strange reason. I think I got my wires crossed with the Cash Out hot when I was updating its implementation - anyway, it is going back to being just an instant heal, though a fairly strong one. (the power benefit is still a PoT effect)

    - Overall self healing in blue may be a little too strong atm, so I have to consider that.

    On the 2 points above. Can you just make it honest % rate of the total morale? In all lines.

    The whole idea that healing has a number same as stat of agility is just weird and for that to work we would have to disconnect morale from all the stats and make it into a stat of it's own? But it does not work like this. Everything contributes "points" to everything, right?

    Healing should be a %. An example.
    Player with 150 morale.

    Incoming damage 10K to 30K

    Healing with maxed out class item incoming healing ratio is 4K on activation and 330 ticking in over time per tic. (in the red line)

    The healing numbers are not scaled to the actual situation out there. They are currently as it stands a joke.


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