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  1. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    This is fallacious. The differences in how classes are played will stay if they all become viable in their respective roles. What will change is the end result that enables them all to be viable. Having classes performing on-par with one another doesn't mean that they will have no distinction. A good example of this is comparing Hunt*rd to RK DPS. They are roughly even when it comes to raiding, or at least even enough to both be taken practically interchangeably in a DPS spot. Do you believe that Hunt*rds and RKs are the same class?



    Where does this even come from? There are 10 classes in LOTRO. No two of them function the exact same, and even if all DPS lines, all tank lines, all heal lines, etc., were made comparable in terms of output, they would still be distinct from one another due to features inherent in each class. Melee vs ranged, single-target vs AoE, direct damage/heals vs DoT/HoT, etc. These mechanics can be different while the results being output by each class are still made competitive, thus leading to the uniqueness and "color" of each class. It really sounds to me like people just don't understand what the word "balance" means on these forums.


    Oh so we are selectively picking statements from posts and not the whole thread/idea/intent of the post

    like

    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    the uniqueness and "color" of each class
    BLUE
    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    the word "balance" means
    an even distribution of weight enabling someone or something to remain upright and steady
    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    There are 10 classes in LOTRO
    Yes, let it be that way

  2. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by sahanto View Post
    So it's ok if the goal post moves for my class but not other classes?
    Nice false hypocrisy assumption. My burg is parked at lvl 21. I play those other classes at cap. Perhaps a mirror would help you spot the hypocrisy? I care about the principle that more than 2 classes should be able qualify for a raid dps position. It's healthy for the game to add more diversity in all roles. I don't care if I get no benefit from burg being a top tier dps class or if burgs start taking slots away from my classes. That sort of thinking doesn't help the game at all. Right now burg gets one and only one slot in a raid. RK/hunter can get up to 5.

    In terms of dps the only classes that get taken are the top dps classes because raid mechanics include enrage timers. So unless other class dps is raised to match the top dps, they will never get taken. In a min/max world this is structural based on how raids are and have been designed.

    So I'll repeat - all classes that have a dps trait line should have approximately equal dps.

    And to the jokers talking about taking 9 LMs so they can keep up ancient craft 100% of the time. So what? They get zero benefit from the armor reduction and get more lightning damage. It still doesn't overtake the fire buff benefits currently in game live that RK/hunter get.

    Dealing with the overpowered fire buff and equalizing all the different types of buffs (fire, light, frost, lightning, armor) would go a long way here. Or devs could just give every class the ability to use fire.

  3. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    I disagree. All traitlines being useful does not mean all traitlines should be equal among different classes. On mini, red line is really useful for pvp and questing or even soloing, it shouldn't be a raid dps, on LM, red line serves same purpose, blue line is a bit useless though. Classes got a main role and secondary role, which means all secondary roles now should be viable for easier content or landscape, but in raid enviroment classes should stick to their main role (RK and beo having 2 main roles).
    If all classes are going to be capable of filling a main raid spot with every traitline we would see only captains and beornings in raids since they can fill all roles just by themselves...

    Dps and hps are zero sum. You're either top or you don't get taken. You can't have class balance and dps disparity. Same goes for hps among healing classes. Being useful isn't good enough to get a slot in a raid. There is no justification as to why a minstrel shouldn't be a raid dps as it has a dps trait line and thus a dps specialization. Same can be said for nearly every class.

    The original roles are obsolete since trait trees. All classes have 3 roles, not just one or two.

    If raid leaders choose to only take beornings and cappys or 12 guards, what's wrong with that? It should be the choice of the raid leader. Right now the choice is already made for them: hunter or RK.

  4. #179
    Don't you understand that those other classes already have a spot/role to fill in the raid?

    Guardian is your main tank.
    LM/Captain is your main support.
    Mini is your main healer.
    Beos are decent tanks and healers.

    If you give these classes the same DPS as Hunters/Fire RKs/Champs/Wardens on top of their utility, why even bring a Hunter? Or a Champ? They'd be pretty much useless, because other classes bring the same DPS and better utility. Is this so hard to comprehend?

    What if someone wants to be a tank Hunter? Should Hunter be the next main tank then? Even though a LM can't DPS in the raid, at least they get to play their CLASS. As a Hunter or Champ, you might as well delete your character then.
    Last edited by Daenirion; Apr 20 2019 at 09:58 AM.
    Server: [DE]Gwaihir, Kinship: Hecki Hecki Pateng

  5. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Daenirion View Post
    What if someone wants to be a tank Hunter? Should Hunter be the next main tank then?
    Yellow Hunt*rd is still suffering from an existential crisis, isn't it? </sarcasm>

  6. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by NavarreBlood View Post
    Dps and hps are zero sum. You're either top or you don't get taken. You can't have class balance and dps disparity. Same goes for hps among healing classes. Being useful isn't good enough to get a slot in a raid. There is no justification as to why a minstrel shouldn't be a raid dps as it has a dps trait line and thus a dps specialization. Same can be said for nearly every class.
    Read my post here from earlier in the thread. You obviously can have class balance and DPS disparity because a DPS traitline doesn't necessarily have to fulfill a DPS role in a group. If you ask me, DPS traitlines for non-DPS classes should serve a hybrid role allowing some damage (~40-60% the DPS of a real DPSer would be interesting I think) while also fulfilling the class' primary role, but to a lesser extent than the "proper" traitlines for those classes. Red Guard? Hybrid DPS/tank. Red Mini? Hybrid DPS/healer. Red LM? Hybrid DPS/support. And so on. This way, these roles will still be viable, but it would require a higher skillcap, and the extra damage that the group could deal with these roles would be a reward for being proficient on the class. As long as the lines have weaker cooldowns/less heal skills/weaker magnitudes or whathaveyou, the lines will still be balanced as they won't overshadow the primary role in raids while still being viable roles for 3/6mans.

    Quote Originally Posted by NavarreBlood View Post
    The original roles are obsolete since trait trees. All classes have 3 roles, not just one or two.
    This doesn't have to be the case; you (among others) just want to be able to be a Hunt*rd on your Mini/Guard/etc., which would lead to more "pure" DPS classes getting left behind as the meta changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by NavarreBlood View Post
    If raid leaders choose to only take beornings and cappys or 12 guards, what's wrong with that? It should be the choice of the raid leader. Right now the choice is already made for them: hunter or RK.
    I agree. It is the raid leader's choice. If they wish to gimp their group by not having a balanced composition, they are allowed to do so. That's not to say that things should stay as one-dimensional as they are currently, mind you. Champ/Warden need to be updated in order to make them competitive DPS with RK/Hunt*rd. Burg is already getting there (although in my opinion, the support utility in redline should be nerfed a bit if it is going to be a "pure" DPS line; we already have blue Burg for a hybrid line). That's not to say that these classes need only their DPS buffed, they need traits updated and reworked and such as well.

    In a perfect world, if Champ/Warden/Burg are made capable of being primary DPS classes, that means for raids we have 5 DPS (Hunt*rd/RK/Chump/Warden/Burg), 5 tanks (Beorning/Guard/Cappy/Warden/Chump), 3-4 healers (Mini/RK/Beorning/Cappy? (I won't get into a Cappy healer tangent right now)), and 3-4 support (LM/Burg/Cappy/Mini?). If you ask me, this sounds like a very well balanced roster. I would say the only issue with it is that Hunt*rds are the only class capable of fulfilling only one role, but that is kind of the point of the class; Hunt*rds do one thing and they do it well. The classes I mentioned as DPS classes should, in my opinion, have competitive DPS traitlines and all be within a small margin of error when it comes to their potential output. For 3/6mans though, most classes should be able to fulfill a DPS role, as those instance requirements should not be as stringent as requirements in raids.

    Also, at the very least, keep in mind that it is much easier to balance 5 classes to a competitive level than to balance 10 classes. In terms of development time, maintaining the specialized roles of classes in LOTRO is the best course of action.
    Last edited by ColMcStacky; Apr 20 2019 at 10:27 AM.

  7. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Daenirion View Post
    Don't you understand that those other classes already have a spot/role to fill in the raid?

    Guardian is your main tank.
    LM/Captain is your main support.
    Mini is your main healer.
    Beos are decent tanks and healers.

    If you give these classes the same DPS as Hunters/Fire RKs/Champs/Wardens on top of their utility, why even bring a Hunter? Or a Champ? They'd be pretty much useless, because other classes bring the same DPS and better utility. Is this so hard to comprehend?

    What if someone wants to be a tank Hunter? Should Hunter be the next main tank then? Even though a LM can't DPS in the raid, at least they get to play their CLASS. As a Hunter or Champ, you might as well delete your character then.
    It's almost as if you didn't read what was said... But, surely, someone asking others whether something is difficult to comprehend, fully comprehends the subject matter themselves?
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
    Also known as Giliodor

  8. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    It's almost as if you didn't read what was said... But, surely, someone asking others whether something is difficult to comprehend, fully comprehends the subject matter themselves?
    Sorry, but my inner troll is coming out a bit... Daenirion was agreeing with you, Aeviternus. He was responding to NavarreBlood; he just didn't quote the post.

    I feel like there is a very comical sense of irony that can be found here...

    Either that, or you just replied to the wrong person (hinthint).

  9. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    He was responding to NavarreBlood; he just didn't quote the post.
    Indeed. I just started typing and forgot to quote. Sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    It's almost as if you didn't read what was said... But, surely, someone asking others whether something is difficult to comprehend, fully comprehends the subject matter themselves?
    I wasn't responding to you but I just read your post on the previous page and it seems like we're in agreement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    It's entirely obvious that RKs and LMs should not have identical DPS. That doesn't mean they should not be equally viable. LM DPS should be lower in red, because it has to account for significant off-healing with Water-lore, stun immunity, Ancient Craft and various other debuffs such as Fire-lore. Taking that into account, the trait line can be made such that it's just as appealing to take as a fire RK. They would either have to do less DPS, or lose utility to compensate for increased DPS.
    Server: [DE]Gwaihir, Kinship: Hecki Hecki Pateng

  10. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Daenirion View Post
    I wasn't responding to you but I just read your post on the previous page and it seems like we're in agreement.
    In that case, I apologise, I thought you were addressing some things that I said. I've argued about this with someone before, and they made the exact point that "hunters should be able to tank and heal, then", which is what you were (jokingly, apparently) saying. Misunderstanding, I'm glad you agree with me. I think the sarcasm in your original post was lost on me, due to the fact that you didn't quote anyone for context. My bad!

    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    Sorry, but my inner troll is coming out a bit... Daenirion was agreeing with you, Aeviternus. He was responding to NavarreBlood; he just didn't quote the post.

    I feel like there is a very comical sense of irony that can be found here...

    Either that, or you just replied to the wrong person (hinthint).
    I think I misconstrued parts of his post as being serious, when they were in fact meant as sarcasm.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
    Also known as Giliodor

  11. #186
    Join Date
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    70
    I think there are some very interesting comments here. I don't like the idea of one dimensional characters and I love to (potentially) fulfill more than one role with each toon, always respecting the spirit of the class. I think that's just what the idea of trait trees was supposed to make happen. But even before trait trees, classes could still grow in more than one direction.

    But I also agree with ColMcStacky's caution that some restrictions should be applied. We don't need all classes to fulfill exactly the same roles. Each class has their own main specialitation(s) or "flavour" and that should be kept. All in all this widened idea of balance would make playing lotro a more satisfactory experience. I think the key word is versatility.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky
    that means for raids we have 5 DPS (Hunt*rd/RK/Chump/Warden/Burg), 5 tanks (Beorning/Guard/Cappy/Warden/Chump), 3-4 healers (Mini/RK/Beorning/Cappy? (I won't get into a Cappy healer tangent right now)), and 3-4 support (LM/Burg/Cappy/Mini?). If you ask me, this sounds like a very well balanced roster.
    Actually, Hunters are problematic here (aren't they always? :P). If that ideal situation of versatile lotro characters would really exist, the role(s) of Hunters should be reconsidered. If all the classes are balanced around 2-3 roles except one class (Hunters), the game would still not be balanced. Yellow Hunters would need some aditional viable role too, to complement Hunters' dps role. Not tank, certainly, but I could see them in a support role with some mixture of buffing and debuffing, provided they lost 80% of their dps while doing so. After all, when you move in the woods you don't need to kill everything in sight, you may choose to blend in with the natural world, I guess.

  12. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Daenirion View Post
    Don't you understand that those other classes already have a spot/role to fill in the raid?

    Guardian is your main tank.
    LM/Captain is your main support.
    Mini is your main healer.
    Beos are decent tanks and healers.

    If you give these classes the same DPS as Hunters/Fire RKs/Champs/Wardens on top of their utility, why even bring a Hunter? Or a Champ? They'd be pretty much useless, because other classes bring the same DPS and better utility. Is this so hard to comprehend?

    What if someone wants to be a tank Hunter? Should Hunter be the next main tank then? Even though a LM can't DPS in the raid, at least they get to play their CLASS. As a Hunter or Champ, you might as well delete your character then.

    You've basically made my argument for me. Those classes that you listed are only taken because they are the top in their particular field and this is because the devs have either through intent or neglect made them so. If Guard weren't the strongest tank, the next strongest tank would be the tank. But why should there only be one main tank? Warden is supposed to be a main tank and so it cappy and beorn. How many raid slots are available to warden and prior to the update for beorn and currently for champ? The top classes are only taken because there is no balance whatsoever. If there were true balance you'd see a much more diverse raid group.

    Instead of this failed paradigm, how about multiple options for tank, healer, dps and support instead of just the default that gets chosen because they happen to have been given more powerful skills than other classes that have the same specialization.

    Tank hunter doesn't fall under a specialization. Hunter has two dps lines, one of which is viable and one support line that isn't viable. If hunter's support line were made viable and competitive with the other support lines, hunter could be taken as support even if there are other dps that happen to be selected for a raid (because there are more options). What about blue champ or blue cappy or yellow minstrel? Those lines could become useful again making all of those classes more versatile and improving the overall choice and balance of the game.

  13. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    Read my post here from earlier in the thread. You obviously can have class balance and DPS disparity because a DPS traitline doesn't necessarily have to fulfill a DPS role in a group. If you ask me, DPS traitlines for non-DPS classes should serve a hybrid role allowing some damage (~40-60% the DPS of a real DPSer would be interesting I think) while also fulfilling the class' primary role, but to a lesser extent than the "proper" traitlines for those classes. Red Guard? Hybrid DPS/tank. Red Mini? Hybrid DPS/healer. Red LM? Hybrid DPS/support. And so on. This way, these roles will still be viable, but it would require a higher skillcap, and the extra damage that the group could deal with these roles would be a reward for being proficient on the class. As long as the lines have weaker cooldowns/less heal skills/weaker magnitudes or whathaveyou, the lines will still be balanced as they won't overshadow the primary role in raids while still being viable roles for 3/6mans.
    Right. Red cappy is a good example of a class that fulfills a group dps role without being overwhelming on personal dps. And this is how it should be because red cappy is a support line rather than a dps line. I read the post you mentioned and agree up until the conclusions which don't appear to flow from the previous arguments.

    Let's take your example - a hybrid class - say LM that does 40-60% of a real DPSer's total. The group makeup is 5 dps, 3 support, 2 healers and 2 tanks. If only one of these artificial dpsers is added to replace a dps slot it's a net loss for the group. I'm not sure if you play LM or not, but in a raid it's a really busy class - no time to dps when running in yellow line - just focusing on buffs/debuffs/lores. So you take two of them both doing 40-60% dps and the rest support - one for taking the support role's slot and one taking a dps slot. Sounds good right? Well if the support is done correctly and buffs don't stack for this particular class then all you get is the non-overlapping buffs to be applied all the time - like ancient craft and sticky tar with 100% uptime. So how much do these give to the overall group? Not much I don't think. So if the two LMs start off at a dps disadvantage - like doing a base 60% of a RK/hunter then the overall dps of the group is less and you have raid leader not ever taking LM in any dps role because the group failed its enrage timer with 2 LMs.

    So the only way this scenario works out is if LM has about the same dps as the other leading dpsers, or can bring some extra buff that helps the group above and beyond what a single LM can give the group. I'm opposed to stacking buffs for a single class because it creates all sorts of balance issues. And frankly if overlapping buffs are too OP they should also go the way of oathies. Most classes are already designed to not stack buffs but there are notable exceptions that should be addressed due to the OP nature of stacking buffs which can trivialize/invalidate some raid mechanics.

    If buffs/debuffs were balanced then then it would be something like:
    Each class that is a support class has a couple of buffs/debuffs for a particular damage type (probably the type(s) the class uses and possibly some others). Each class would have a common cap - say 5% per class per buff. So LM could debuff for 5% fire, and 5% other dmg types, and 2 other classes could each do the same for their damage types so there is a global 15% cap on buffs/debuffs for a particular type. So yellow hunter gets a 5% fire and 5% armor buff/debuff that can stack with the LM, but two hunters can't stack their buff. So you get diversity in the raid group based on the unique skills of the individual classes, combined with a global cap.


    In a perfect world, if Champ/Warden/Burg are made capable of being primary DPS classes, that means for raids we have 5 DPS (Hunt*rd/RK/Chump/Warden/Burg), 5 tanks (Beorning/Guard/Cappy/Warden/Chump), 3-4 healers (Mini/RK/Beorning/Cappy? (I won't get into a Cappy healer tangent right now)), and 3-4 support (LM/Burg/Cappy/Mini?). If you ask me, this sounds like a very well balanced roster. I would say the only issue with it is that Hunt*rds are the only class capable of fulfilling only one role, but that is kind of the point of the class; Hunt*rds do one thing and they do it well. The classes I mentioned as DPS classes should, in my opinion, have competitive DPS traitlines and all be within a small margin of error when it comes to their potential output. For 3/6mans though, most classes should be able to fulfill a DPS role, as those instance requirements should not be as stringent as requirements in raids.

    Also, at the very least, keep in mind that it is much easier to balance 5 classes to a competitive level than to balance 10 classes. In terms of development time, maintaining the specialized roles of classes in LOTRO is the best course of action.
    I'd include yellow hunter as a support role. This could be achieved by simply giving the class meaningful damage type buffs/debuffs that help the whole fellow/raid as described above. "Focuses on sustained damage, AoE, and CC, controlling the flow of battle while providing buffs for allies on their opponents." I don't think the buffs that yellow hunter currently provides are useful in a raid. The most useful raid buffs are increasing damage to the target or decreasing damage taken from the target. Yellow mini and yellow hunter are severely lacking in these skills.

    As far as difficulty in balancing 10 vs 5 classes - I agree that more classes = more work, however I'd point out that these balancing passes have turned into "rework" passes. If they were strictly balancing passes, within a short period - like a few weeks to a month all the classes could be adequately balanced and tested for dps strength and hps strength. So I don't see the number of classes as a big obstacle. Individual class reworks, buff/debuff strength and tank strength will take reworks of certain classes that could take considerably longer, and that seems to be where development time is mostly being spent. This despite the negative externalities of taking this approach (blue hunter). And the low-hanging fruit remains for an actual future balance pass to simply tweak the dps/hps numbers for classes that are already fulfilling that role (or could be).

  14. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by NavarreBlood View Post
    Dps and hps are zero sum. You're either top or you don't get taken. You can't have class balance and dps disparity. Same goes for hps among healing classes. Being useful isn't good enough to get a slot in a raid. There is no justification as to why a minstrel shouldn't be a raid dps as it has a dps trait line and thus a dps specialization. Same can be said for nearly every class.

    The original roles are obsolete since trait trees. All classes have 3 roles, not just one or two.

    If raid leaders choose to only take beornings and cappys or 12 guards, what's wrong with that? It should be the choice of the raid leader. Right now the choice is already made for them: hunter or RK.
    Because as long as hunters and rks don't have a tanking line, you are not allowed to have their same dps, simple as that.

  15. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Cenifh View Post
    Because as long as hunters and rks don't have a tanking line, you are not allowed to have their same dps, simple as that.
    Total non sequitur. This isn't a valid line of logic. People try to employ this argument time and time again. It doesn't make any sense. Do you seriously not realise that? I will explain it, if so, I just find it very difficult to believe that it requires an explanation.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
    Also known as Giliodor

  16. #191
    Appears the Burglar update is hitting live on Tuesday?

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-Release-Notes

    @Vastin Please can you clarify if there has there been any changes made to the Burglar for this live release from this last BR build?
    lil 'obbit of Evernight...

    The Ascensio, Chaos Unbound, Paradox, Silent Paths, Ascension, Bonehunters, Legion of the Valar

  17. #192
    Lol one night of testing on bullroarer then it goes live. Thanks

  18. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by NavarreBlood View Post
    Right. Red cappy is a good example of a class that fulfills a group dps role without being overwhelming on personal dps. And this is how it should be because red cappy is a support line rather than a dps line.
    Agreed. And this same logic to me explains why, for example, a red LM should not have the same potential DPS output as a Hunt*rd/RK, as LM is a support class, and even in red line, it has outstanding support potential when traited properly. The only difference is that in order to maximize this support potential, red LM has to hybridize more than red Cappy.

    Quote Originally Posted by NavarreBlood View Post
    I read the post you mentioned and agree up until the conclusions which don't appear to flow from the previous arguments.

    Let's take your example - a hybrid class - say LM that does 40-60% of a real DPSer's total. The group makeup is 5 dps, 3 support, 2 healers and 2 tanks. If only one of these artificial dpsers is added to replace a dps slot it's a net loss for the group. I'm not sure if you play LM or not, but in a raid it's a really busy class - no time to dps when running in yellow line - just focusing on buffs/debuffs/lores. So you take two of them both doing 40-60% dps and the rest support - one for taking the support role's slot and one taking a dps slot. Sounds good right? Well if the support is done correctly and buffs don't stack for this particular class then all you get is the non-overlapping buffs to be applied all the time - like ancient craft and sticky tar with 100% uptime. So how much do these give to the overall group? Not much I don't think. So if the two LMs start off at a dps disadvantage - like doing a base 60% of a RK/hunter then the overall dps of the group is less and you have raid leader not ever taking LM in any dps role because the group failed its enrage timer with 2 LMs.
    I think you were misunderstanding my point. I was not advocating for a situation where a red LM could replace a DPS class and benefit the group in terms of total DPS output; I was saying that in certain situations, a red LM can and should be able to replace a yellow LM as a support role. By doing so, the LM provides some extra damage for the group while still fulfilling its support duties. Granted, this is not really possible everywhere while benefiting the group, but in certain situations it is.

    I would also say that depending on the group comp, the instance/boss, and the strategy, that this may result in a loss of DPS or even a wash, but even if it only breaks even, it does allow an LM a more versatile playstyle. So although you are still stuck in a single role in a raid setting, there are multiple ways for you to fulfill that role. I do play LM myself, yes, and I actually main my LM as it's both my most played character and the one I am most comfortable on.

    If you take Anvil, for example, I would say first boss doesn't get much benefit out of a red LM. There is simply too much going on for you to be useful to the group, and the added instability of going red instead of yellow doesn't give enough of a benefit to be viable in my experience. Second boss, red LM is definitely viable depending on which bosses you get and how solid the group is. Third boss too, as there isn't a whole lot going on. Fourth boss I've never really tried since it's not a DPS race, but I don't think it'd be too hard to go red there either. When I do go red in raids, I do so in a way that maximizes my support potential. You can spec redline, but then dip both yellow for debuffs and blue for catmint, and you don't really miss out on a whole lot other than the Ancient Craft trait the way I have mine set up. Even if you get the Ancient Craft trait from yellow, simply by having Improved Sticky Gourd, you are already doing a chunk of damage if you use the skill every 20-30s.

    Quote Originally Posted by NavarreBlood View Post
    So the only way this scenario works out is if LM has about the same dps as the other leading dpsers, or can bring some extra buff that helps the group above and beyond what a single LM can give the group. I'm opposed to stacking buffs for a single class because it creates all sorts of balance issues. And frankly if overlapping buffs are too OP they should also go the way of oathies. Most classes are already designed to not stack buffs but there are notable exceptions that should be addressed due to the OP nature of stacking buffs which can trivialize/invalidate some raid mechanics.
    With what you were saying, yes, you are right. I hope I clarified my position on what I said earlier if it wasn't already clear though. In my eyes, red LM should not be made a viable spec for a raid DPS (although in 3/6mans, it is still pretty respectable as-is since less support is required), as that would necessitate nerfing the support it can pick up from both yellow and blue. This would greatly hurt the class in my opinion, as it takes away our versatility and pigeonholes the LM into much more cookiecutter roles, similar to what happened to the Cappy with trait trees. Red LM is a DPS line that still fulfills a support role in groups while adding a bit more icing to the cake.

    Quote Originally Posted by NavarreBlood View Post
    If buffs/debuffs were balanced then then it would be something like:
    Each class that is a support class has a couple of buffs/debuffs for a particular damage type (probably the type(s) the class uses and possibly some others). Each class would have a common cap - say 5% per class per buff. So LM could debuff for 5% fire, and 5% other dmg types, and 2 other classes could each do the same for their damage types so there is a global 15% cap on buffs/debuffs for a particular type. So yellow hunter gets a 5% fire and 5% armor buff/debuff that can stack with the LM, but two hunters can't stack their buff. So you get diversity in the raid group based on the unique skills of the individual classes, combined with a global cap.
    I agree that this would probably be the best way to balance classes so that class variety in raids is not destroyed the way it has been with both Abyss and Anvil, although the specifics of the type of buff/debuff and the magnitude would still be up for debate. The only caveat I would add is that classes like LM, Cappy, Burg (in yellow and blue), and a few other class specs should always have support that is magnitudes more potent than that of "pure" DPS classes/roles.

    Quote Originally Posted by NavarreBlood View Post
    I'd include yellow hunter as a support role. This could be achieved by simply giving the class meaningful damage type buffs/debuffs that help the whole fellow/raid as described above. "Focuses on sustained damage, AoE, and CC, controlling the flow of battle while providing buffs for allies on their opponents." I don't think the buffs that yellow hunter currently provides are useful in a raid. The most useful raid buffs are increasing damage to the target or decreasing damage taken from the target. Yellow mini and yellow hunter are severely lacking in these skills.
    Honestly, I have never touched a Hunt*rd. I don't know enough about their traits/skills to say either way, so I simply excluded them so I wouldn't misspeak. If you are right though, then I agree about yellow Hunt*rd being made a more potent support role, possibly even to the effect of yellow Burg. Compared to red/blue Hunt*rd though, the DPS would definitely need to be curtailed in this line if this was made a reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by NavarreBlood View Post
    As far as difficulty in balancing 10 vs 5 classes - I agree that more classes = more work, however I'd point out that these balancing passes have turned into "rework" passes. If they were strictly balancing passes, within a short period - like a few weeks to a month all the classes could be adequately balanced and tested for dps strength and hps strength. So I don't see the number of classes as a big obstacle. Individual class reworks, buff/debuff strength and tank strength will take reworks of certain classes that could take considerably longer, and that seems to be where development time is mostly being spent. This despite the negative externalities of taking this approach (blue hunter). And the low-hanging fruit remains for an actual future balance pass to simply tweak the dps/hps numbers for classes that are already fulfilling that role (or could be).
    While I see your point, I believe that if prioritizing balance would fix it in only a month or two at most, it would have happened by now. The broken scaling/balancing issues that we suffer from today have been years in the making, and I think there are probably many things going awry under the hood, so to speak, that we aren't aware of that makes this type of across the board balancing more problematic than any of us know. I refuse to believe that the devs are simply too incompetent to leave such a pressing matter on the backburner for this long if the fix would be as simple as adjusting a few numbers here and there.

  19. #194
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    168
    Quote Originally Posted by Fingerz View Post
    Appears the Burglar update is hitting live on Tuesday?

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-Release-Notes

    @Vastin Please can you clarify if there has there been any changes made to the Burglar for this live release from this last BR build?
    ^ This. ONE BR test? Really?

    The bug list on burgs was extensive...so youre saying you got em all fixed - no need to test em, its ready to release?

    Yellow Line?? *Looks under the couch*

    Im...happy for changes and burg work. A bit disappointed that as a SUPPORT class - the SUPPORT tree was left mostly untouched.

    Jury is still out for me on the gamble chance to gamble damage change...I run blue often and could hold down a nice group of mobs before. Remove that and I go back to being a 1 hit (useless) wonder. We'll see I suppose.

    -Ods

  20. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Oddessia View Post
    ^ This. ONE BR test? Really?

    The bug list on burgs was extensive...so youre saying you got em all fixed - no need to test em, its ready to release?

    Yellow Line?? *Looks under the couch*

    Im...happy for changes and burg work. A bit disappointed that as a SUPPORT class - the SUPPORT tree was left mostly untouched.

    Jury is still out for me on the gamble chance to gamble damage change...I run blue often and could hold down a nice group of mobs before. Remove that and I go back to being a 1 hit (useless) wonder. We'll see I suppose.

    -Ods
    Agreed, I'm pretty disappointed to see that the AoE potential of tricks was not increased at all. Simply having Trickster increase tricks to 5-10 targets would've made all the difference. The percentage healing is nice, but I think most of us would've preferred to have real AoE utility in yellow so that in 3/6mans, Burgs could actually substitute well for an LM.

    I also hope that blue becomes viable, as for me it is the most enjoyable way to play my Burg. Although if Debuffing Gamble is still not made multiplicative (on BR it was still additive), then that does hurt a fair bit, especially since it got nerfed by more than 50% in addition to becoming less reliable since you can't force max-tier gambles anymore.

  21. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Cenifh View Post
    Because as long as hunters and rks don't have a tanking line, you are not allowed to have their same dps, simple as that.
    Er, no. Not even close.

  22. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    Agreed. And this same logic to me explains why, for example, a red LM should not have the same potential DPS output as a Hunt*rd/RK, as LM is a support class, and even in red line, it has outstanding support potential when traited properly. The only difference is that in order to maximize this support potential, red LM has to hybridize more than red Cappy.
    I generally agree with everything you wrote except this part above. Since LM has two dps lines (blue and red) and one support line (yellow), it could be argued that LM is primarily a dps class that also has a support role. However, based on the class's relative trait line skill strength, and in light of the recent LM work, the devs seem to agree with your view.

  23. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by NavarreBlood View Post
    Er, no. Not even close.
    actually the person you quoted is correct. your feelings or beliefs do not apply. this is not a matter of fake news. this is how mmorpgs and muds have been designed for three decades. the pure dps class that has no other function in a group other than to reduce an enemies hp to zero is expected to be the best at that role. it has always been this way.

  24. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by NavarreBlood View Post
    I generally agree with everything you wrote except this part above. Since LM has two dps lines (blue and red) and one support line (yellow), it could be argued that LM is primarily a dps class that also has a support role. However, based on the class's relative trait line skill strength, and in light of the recent LM work, the devs seem to agree with your view.
    in the context of mmorpg antiquity within which this game was designed and continues to reside, blue line lm is more like old school bm hunter in wow. it's the solo tree, not necessarily the group tree and should not be thought of as just a dps tree. technically, it's the personal survivability tree.

  25. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Teyaha View Post
    actually the person you quoted is correct. your feelings or beliefs do not apply. this is not a matter of fake news. this is how mmorpgs and muds have been designed for three decades. the pure dps class that has no other function in a group other than to reduce an enemies hp to zero is expected to be the best at that role. it has always been this way.
    yea...
    just that lotro goes away from classes that only do one thing and tries to put higher priority on roles instead...
    every class in lotro can do some CC
    every class in lotro can, with certain equipment, survive a lot of damage
    every class in lotro can be good in DPS

    sure, a class that cant do anything else but dps should excel there. but such a class does not exist.

    and even if it should be the best... that doesnt state the margin by how much. A class can be the best at something and still be irrelevant, because everyone else is 1% behind while offering other benefits.
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