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  1. #101
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
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    253
    Imagine thinking I'm going to argue with a clear alt account which was created just to taunt me xD oh wait.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seekwan View Post
    Lol I think you just proved my point on know it all edgelords, chiming in cause they been raid leader a couple times. Yellow line is useful only when there's enough dps to benefit from the debuffs it provides, this is one of the basic things, anyone who's spent a hour on yellow would comprehend, exactly how do you make a yellow line burg more viable, or let's say sought out for in glimmer, when you can take a hunter?
    Ok first of all this take is ridiculous because everyone at some point or another has taken an LM in their 3 mans, if you were to balance those 2 classes so they are more or less equal you would take a burg INSTEAD OF an LM. If you have your mind set on this "No one takes anything other than tank-dps-dps" than idk what to tell you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seekwan View Post
    You're essentially asking for burglars to stick to one role, debuffing, which is pretty rich coming from a rk. I mean, it's not like 2/3 of our trait lines are designed to deal damage or anything, right?




    Quote Originally Posted by Seekwan View Post
    But please, continue to quote me and say I must not know burglar because I said something you failed to understand, and then proceed to not give any legitimate reason to back your statement. You're clearly the most informed and intelligent person here, please guide us lowly simpletons.
    I do fail to understand how a burg can say burgs aren't the best freep class in the moors because it's so illogical I just can't comprehend it. I hope you have learned something from the, and I quote, "the most informed and intelligent person here", hehe.
    Estarossa, Rank 15 rune-keeper, Ark

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post

    Sorry, the issue with human animation variations was already discussed extensively on Palantir, so I didn't think to bring it up here.

    I can't personally rework character animations unfortunately, so I have a task in for our animators to correct the issue, but I don't have a timeline for that as they're currently tied up in other tasks.

    I do bug them about it, but that's all I can do.

    - Vastin
    Thank you very much, Vastin. Now I have hope.
    Last edited by random_player_897469; Apr 12 2019 at 09:23 PM.

  3. #103
    [I]
    Quote Originally Posted by sahanto View Post
    Imagine thinking I'm going to argue with a clear alt account which was created just to taunt me xD oh wait.

    Ok first of all this take is ridiculous because everyone at some point or another has taken an LM in their 3 mans, if you were to balance those 2 classes so they are more or less equal you would take a burg INSTEAD OF an LM. If you have your mind set on this "No one takes anything other than tank-dps-dps" than idk what to tell you.

    I don't know if you're intending this, or maybe you're just unconscious of the fact you're doing it, but you're not answering the propositions I make, this is the second time now, all you're doing, and what you did with the others attempting to give useful/practical feedback is use what was said, and exaggerate, or take it to the most one dimensional scenario. "No one takes anything other than tank-dps dps" - I didn't say that, I said why would somebody who's 2/3 with tank and healer looking for dps for glimmer t2 take a yellow burg instead of a hunter with the same stats? You didn't answer that, you just tried throw some vague insult my way.




    A nice coincidence you don't show the entire text, makes it pretty easy to skew it towards your point. This makes me think you're just trying to win a gold stickers for 'best argument made'.
    Don't worry I've gone out of my way to show the full explanation.



    Honestly I'm not here to force you to be wrong, or 'get you', I play this class, and have played it for a while. Have a look at this description, it describes blue line to a T, and I play red line burg at that. The notion of a burglar being viable as yellow, having poor dps, doing nothing but snag+enragex2+RW for any team content is a mistake, yellow has become the only viable means because the other two traits just don't work, or work well enough to warrant a fellowship spot for them, if LMs could do the incoming damage debuff like burg, burglar would have no use whatsoever. I don't like blue line very much, I prefer red line as I have played scout classes in other MMOs for years, but if any trait line, today, described the essence of Burglar as intended all those years ago, it'd be blue line.

    Quote Originally Posted by sahanto View Post
    I do fail to understand how a burg can say burgs aren't the best freep class in the moors because it's so illogical I just can't comprehend it. I hope you have learned something from the, and I quote, "the most informed and intelligent person here", hehe.

    Let's keep the egotistical stuff out of here, because I meant "the most informed and intelligent person here" as a dig, that this is how YOU are perceiving yourself unconsciously, and how your statements are coming across to us reading what you typed, but the fact that you said "I hope you have learned something from the, and I quote, "the most informed and intelligent person here", hehe." is really just sad man, I don't know why you're here, or what your true objectives are, coming in here and insulting people's competence at the classes they've spent hundreds of hours on, and I'm not referring to just myself, please re-read the thread, specifically your replies, nobody else has responded to the other people giving feedback, in the manner you have. But all I want, and I'm sure the other burg mains want, is for our class to be more than just an incoming damage debuffing robot.

    And to respond to your freeps class comment before you try and say I've ignored it, just because you get killed by burgs often doesn't necessarily mean they are the best, it just means you're frequently being killed by them, I agree they have an advantage in the moors, and that is their stealth, burglar will more often than not, get the first hit, in a 1v1, burgs don't necessarily, have the curbstomping advantage that you perceive , but 3-4+ burgs running around the moors, just as you get wargs doing, is 100% going to be killing you, and I'm 90% sure that is what you've experienced whether you'll be honest and admit that here (I hope you do, so we can begin to be more honest here about burglar problems that need adaptation) or not. But that's because 3-4 players jumped you before you had a chance to react, doesn't matter what class it is past that statement.

    PS: I hope you don't now try and also say "if you think that all yellow burg does debuff incoming damage, then you're not etc etc..." I'm well aware of what other things including CC'ing, maint healing etc that yellow burg does for a team, it's just obvious they are not the top USP of bringing a burglar to a raid.

  4. #104
    Will there be any changes ( fix ) to the lothlorien jewellery set bonus +15% outgoing healing?
    At the moment the jewellery does not work for blue line Rune-Keepers

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Seekwan View Post
    [I]

    And to respond to your freeps class comment before you try and say I've ignored it, just because you get killed by burgs often doesn't necessarily mean they are the best, it just means you're frequently being killed by them, I agree they have an advantage in the moors, and that is their stealth, burglar will more often than not, get the first hit, in a 1v1, burgs don't necessarily, have the curbstomping advantage that you perceive , but 3-4+ burgs running around the moors, just as you get wargs doing, is 100% going to be killing you, and I'm 90% sure that is what you've experienced whether you'll be honest and admit that here (I hope you do, so we can begin to be more honest here about burglar problems that need adaptation) or not. But that's because 3-4 players jumped you before you had a chance to react, doesn't matter what class it is past that statement.
    The bad PvP burgs always out themselves sooner or later XD

    (Retired... Maybe un-retired?) Arkenstone: Immanitas R12 Burg, Gorbat R12 Reaver, Sueahpro R11 Mini, Falsified R9 RK, -The Blood Hand
    Crickhollow: Orphluk R9 Warg, Orphelun-1 R8 RK. -The Blood Hand.

  6. #106
    @Vastin

    Champion's devastating hits are broken since U23. They are always less critical. Can you fix it, please?

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post

    Sorry, the issue with human animation variations was already discussed extensively on Palantir, so I didn't think to bring it up here.

    I can't personally rework character animations unfortunately, so I have a task in for our animators to correct the issue, but I don't have a timeline for that as they're currently tied up in other tasks.

    I do bug them about it, but that's all I can do.

    - Vastin
    Hello Vastin, you need more information about other classes with similar animation problems, depending on the race?
    In mostly talking about the champion (dwarf in particular).
    Or are you already clear about which animation problems you have?
    If you want to contact me, pls don't write me a Private Message on the Forum, the chance that I read them is low.
    The best way is via Discord:
    Gertes#5389

  8. #108
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Nottingham, UK
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    327
    Quote Originally Posted by borgov25 View Post
    @Vastin

    Champion's devastating hits are broken since U23. They are always less critical. Can you fix it, please?
    It has been like that for at least 2 years already. I don't think they care.
    Captain-General Narthrivor r15 Hunter - r12 Warden - r12 Champion - r7 Captain - r6 Guardian - Phoenix Legion and Innocent raid alliance - Laurelin EN-RP

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoFTW View Post
    It has been like that for at least 2 years already. I don't think they care.
    Some classes have this problem its not just the champ. Your crit value should give you more devastate multi then currently. For example if your crittvalue gives you 50% more cit damage it should give you 100% devaste damage.
    If you want to contact me, pls don't write me a Private Message on the Forum, the chance that I read them is low.
    The best way is via Discord:
    Gertes#5389

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Athens, Greece
    Posts
    105
    Hello all.

    Sorry for the spam. Please, do not use this thread to voice your personal arguments. There are other communication forms suited for your replies. Don't compromise other peoples' efforts to track down important feedback and constructive proposals, while not having access to the beta server.

    Thank you in advance.
    Teucros/Psorokostaina/Ippokratis/Kervertros.
    Officer & Raid Leader for The Aegean Eagles, Evernight {EU}.
    http://aegeaneagles.forumotion.com
    https://theaegeaneagles.shivtr.com

  11. #111
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    168
    I've been reading and watching the feedback and mostly like what Im seeing as far as changes. Thanks for touching base with us again Vastin!

    I know in the notes Cord shared on stream you did mention that yellow line had no work done to it - but that you were going to go there. Just wanted to check in and make sure thats still a thing. I hope so! lol I <3 yellow, and as a support class - we sorely need our yellow tree updated.

    Your work is exceptional thus far and so I have faith! lol Please dont forget yellow (bribes with cookies)


    -Ods

  12. #112
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Louisiana
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    10,738
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post

    I can't personally rework character animations unfortunately, so I have a task in for our animators to correct the issue, but I don't have a timeline for that as they're currently tied up in other tasks.
    Are they finally making Warden animations for Dwarves?
    Arda Shrugged - Elendilstone / Landroval / Anor

  13. #113
    Some Beorning animation changes were not properly applied to male Beornings, these have been updated.

    Noticed this in the patch notes; is this a fix for the -attack duration buffs negativly impacting beorning heals ?
    lil 'obbit of Evernight...

    The Ascensio, Chaos Unbound, Paradox, Silent Paths, Ascension, Bonehunters, Legion of the Valar

  14. #114
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Hey folks! Thanks for all the responses. I'm going through and thinking about which bits I need to tackle before it goes live.

    - Probably need to bring the DPS down from the current build a bit. I want it high, but I think it's a little over the top right now, especially as other bug fixes enter the picture.

    - I've got a fix for the evade>crit blue line bug already lined up, as well as a number of others.

    - I'm going to leave knives out where it is. I'm sure that most people will learn to use it effectively, now that its mitigation is universal and quite potent.

    - The heal from Mischievous Glee ended up being a hot for some strange reason. I think I got my wires crossed with the Cash Out hot when I was updating its implementation - anyway, it is going back to being just an instant heal, though a fairly strong one. (the power benefit is still a PoT effect)

    - Overall self healing in blue may be a little too strong atm, so I have to consider that.

    - I am considering shifting the skills back to fast. In theory I don't really think you're going to see as much difference as you think you will because for most skills the execution times have been shortened to match the existing animation times - and Fast doesn't DO anything in that circumstance - but for the same reason it may not be a big deal to change it back. <shrug>

    Oh, someone was asking about Gamble payouts. They're a little buggy right now if you have two burgs interacting, but I have a fix for that lined up. Cash Out is supposed to consume all the gambles on the target, producing a different payout effect for each one. (damage, stun, HoT)

    Right now the magnitude of the payouts is not dependent on the tier of the Gamble, which isn't how I envisioned it, but is where it's stuck for the time being. Doing the version where you get tiered payouts is rather performance intensive, so I'm avoiding that until I get some better tech for it - so for the time being you're generally better off cashing out your lower gambles before replacing them with (hopefully) better ones.

    -Vastin
    In terms of dps I think double edged strike and flashing blades may need to be tuned down a little. They seem to contribute to a (too) large amount of overal dps with the Bullroarer build.

    Also cunning attack duration might have been nerfed a bit too much. 16 seconds as a base duration would be nice! Also it seems using a second cunning attack does not refresh the bleed duration, which would be a nice touch, since the bleeds won't stack anyway. Perhaps a second cunning attack could even upgrade the bleed tier as well, in addition to refreshing it's duration!

    Subtle stab still could use a slight dps boost if double edged strike and flashing blades are tuned down a bit, and so does surprise strike.

    Mischievous glee does have a hot component on live right now as well (*grins* Even if it's a really small one). I really liked this skill the way it was on Bullroarer. I'm hoping you can leave it unchanged! It's pretty much the only improvement for yellow line right now other than the general dps increase.

    I feel a bit divided about the fast skills. Redline rotation did feel noticably slower for me, but somehow yellow line it felt a bit smoother, which was a welcome feeling.

    The one skill that did feel way too slow was startling twist, It would be very nice to see that one be a bit faster!

    Overall I really like the class update! I just hope it won't be tuned down too much!
    Last edited by Elwenwing; Apr 13 2019 at 09:32 PM.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Elwenwing View Post
    I feel a bit divided about the fast skills. Redline rotation did feel noticably slower for me, but somehow yellow line it felt a bit smoother, which was a welcome feeling.
    That's mostly because DES is immediate now imo, where you can use a slow skill like Quite A Snag and follow up instantly with DES. Didn't check out startling twist animation here, but i noticed an increased after-animation on Trickster. Maybe same thing happened with Startling Twist?
    Thonras r13/r10 Blackarrow - Erenthenn r11/r8 Hunter - Seodric r11/r5 Burglar - Seorric r9 Champion - Grusnash r9 Reaver - Nomno r8 Warg - Durumdor r7 RK - Carranham r6 Captain
    Original Challenger of Gothmog and Original Challenger of The Abyss - The Bandits Laurelin - Odyssey Evernight

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by xxSniperxx View Post
    The latest fad in endgame burglaring, force taunt and aggro wipe, just for the lulz!


    Heal on Touch and Go remains the same, resettable 50% heal is way too much for a class that just got a big DPS boost.


    Provoke still provides a chance to provide a daze, on top of the new buffs added. Pls fix since it is no longer supposed to daze.
    I don't want to see or hear any opinions about too strong or too weak until things are tested and there are parses.

    until then, hold your opinions. especially if you have no experience maining melee characters in DIKU-style mmorpgs.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers View Post
    these are not the changes that burg needed.


    Burg now (assuming the provoke gamble mez is WAI, though it probably isn't because it isn't mentioned in the patch notes as a valid gamble), has more CC than all other classes combined, more DPS than champion, and more utility than loremaster, all at the same time.



    What the old burglar needed most was a number boosts:

    -boost the base damage,
    -boost the durations and values of outdated debuffs/buffs (glee, blue line buffs/debuffs, gambles, trick removal skills, quite-a-snag, etc)
    -fix bugs with non-fuctioning debuffs (such as old provoke debuff).


    what we got now is some of that, but so much random stuff that burglar didn't need at all (AOE taunt? AOE DPS?) and which now makes burglar the unquestioned king of not only burst melee dps, but of CC, sustained dps, and debuffing as well... all while surviving better than any other non-tank class.

    At this point, we have to ask... what CANT a burglar do? Burgs will now be running into the old "OP wardens" territory of what happens when you give one class the ability to be good at a lot of things simultaneously.

    New META for raids probably will be having 2-3 burgs (one red, one yellow, one blue) now, never looking back at champ.

    This arms race needs to stop. You can't keep giving everyone everything they ask for and then some extra.




    enhance the characteristics that are UNIQUE to the class, instead of giving them the same things other classes have...





    ...right now every class seems to be on track to become one and the same.

    no.

    what burglars needed was to be the premiere single target dps in the game. period. hands down. no matter what. as long as a burglar was on target, nobody should top their single target damage.

    why? no aoe, melee range, medium armor.

    they should be higher damage than champions - they don't wear heavy and have nowhere near the aoe
    they should be better debuffers or cc'ers than loremasters (this is arguable given...) since loremasters are ranged and have a pet buffer if needed

    surviving better than any other non tank class? that's a rather short list of classes. hunter. loremaster. minstrel. everything else can tank.

    until that aoe is tested, I will still believe the above. if their aoe is still bottom tier among the dps options in the line that most benefits their new aoe damage abilities, then I will still continue to state that they should have the highest single target dps in the game when they are on target, with an emphasis on dot damage so they are not overly punished by the many, many anti-melee mechanics in this game.

    I give exactly no cares about pvp. pvp is joke in this game. it will never be balanced and the pve performance of any class should not be hosed or overly buffed because of pvp in this particular mmorpg.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers View Post
    As a minimum, yes....

    although I feel like in general, with these changes.... burglar has more survival and emergency skills than some tanks.... It would probably be wise to tune down some of these effects even for PVE

    Knives out basically makes burglar invincible.
    what with those medium armor mits and what not...right?

    you can't look at this in a vacuum.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorondir View Post
    > Touch and Go cool down - to long, I mean juggernaut for guard in 3m. this should be 3min not 5min.

    You are not really comparing the Oh-####-Button CD of a (now) DD with the one of a dedicated tanking class? 5min is absolutely fine for a DD class.
    it's also the squishest melee range dd. making it 3 minutes won't give the class heavy armor mitigations.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    I just went on Bulroar with my champ and tested some stuff including DPS.
    On Single target I barely reached 70k DPS, most of the time I was around 65-70k.
    On 3 Target Aoe (in yellow line), I reached 155-175k.

    I have a problem with this, ofc its hard to reason from dummy to group/raid setups.
    Currently, the Champ is 2nd place in single target (right after hunter and before rk's). But with this big dps gap un bulroar, red burg will be more than likely 1st single target DPS overall + the capability to reach the same aoe DPS then a yellow champ in aoe situations + insanely better survivability then champion has.

    So the burglar just needs to spec Red and has better Single target and same Aoe on up to 3 Targets.
    Champs offers little Group support compared to burg, and change there specs to deal are or single target DPS.

    Champ singletarget, averagetry:


    I dont want a class to be nerfed so my class is better, but just with the context on bulroar i think this burg changes are a bit over the top. (at least in redline)

    again taken in a vacuum.

    you will only take one burglar so long as gambles work as they do.

    burglars don't wear heavy armor. they should have higher single target than a champion, but they should have less 3 target aoe. I was actually ok with zero aoe so long as they were the single target kings.

    and lets not forget it's going to be forever and +1 day before any additional burglars are levelled and geared to a population level that people are actively replacing their champions with burglar players.

  21. #121
    Join Date
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    california
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teyaha View Post
    hunter. loremaster. minstrel. everything else can tank.
    What about RK tanks?

  22. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    Most of the time its no problem to stay in posi (in single atrget fights), why would you pick a champ now? How is it a good thing that redline burg has better DPS then a red champ?
    Red Burglar still offers extremely good offensive support (by revealing mark and -crit debuff) he is also much tankier now and can taunt a target away from the tank if he needs some seconds to get his cd's back or smth.
    What offers red champ besides damage?
    And its not just the champ, its every single DPS class that falls behind in DPS compared to the current beta burglar.

    In my opinion a high utility class should deal lesser damage than a pure DPS class.
    Hunter vs Rk is a good example.
    Hunters have little to offer in terms of group/raid utility.
    Rk's debuff the Enemy, so everyone deals more damage + they have a combat rezz, that's why they deal lesser damage then an hunter
    I would agree with you if burglars were heavy armor and champions were medium. sadly that's not how the classes work, and these raw numbers or even utility can't just be taken in a vacuum without considering all facets of combat.

  23. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Daniyel View Post
    What about RK tanks?
    sorry I always forget about rk's.

  24. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by random_player_897469 View Post
    For how many months and years in how many threads has this been asked to look at?... Yet it hasn't been fixed and hasn't even been acknowledged. It's so disheartening I truly have no words. If it doesn't get fixed now when Vastin is working on the burg, it's safe to assume it will never be fixed. SSG why do you let a situation exist where some characters are so much slower and weaker than others just because of their race and gender choice? Why do you put your players at a disadvantage so badly they don't even feel like playing the class? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why am I still even playing and paying for this bugfest of a game instead of moving on to a game whose developers care and can?
    this doesn't just affect burglars, man. play a guardian or beorning for 10 minutes then play a captain. it's like watching paint dry and it's unnecessary. yes, Aragorn was a big poof who had to sing about his sword and manliness every 4th page in the books, but does the game class have to pose after every swing?

  25. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by borgov25 View Post
    @Vastin

    Champion's devastating hits are broken since U23. They are always less critical. Can you fix it, please?
    hold up, are you saying champion devastating hits do less damage than normal crits?

    yeah, you can't properly balance classes if this is an actual thing, and should be a priority fix.

 

 
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