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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Aymerik View Post
    That's a great idea for new players, but I think it's harder to implement than adding scrolls to a barterer or increasing the droprate from instances.
    I'm in West Rohan right now and have noticed the 'every quest (now including tasks) gives area currency' thing going on for a while. Does that continue in later areas? If so, I while there may be some flavor benefit to sticking scrolls/crystals on quests, we're getting the tokens anyway and (assuming there isn't some other way we *need* to use them all) I think it's just as easy to barter for them, and we get the same incremental effect Stormtower is looking for.

    I can't comment on SSG's revenue concerns, but from a player ease perspective, maybe they could add some sort of economizing object to the Relic Master, say 100,000 shards for +1 on all 8 legacies. (In chat discussions I've been told simultaneously that shards are useless after level 95 and that scrolls are to expensive to buy with shards-it doesn't seem to me that both could be true, but that's the perception on the topic I've encountered).

  2. #102
    People are only "excited" about the potential LIs revamp because of the lack of scrolls in game

    The system in itself is "alright" and there wouldn't be any issue if scrolls were made more available in game.

    Also be aware of one thing, they were fine with us farming CoS for scrolls before U23, so what has changed ?

    To me it's not just about money since people have already pointed out how much it would cost to buy hundreds of scroll (way to expensive for the average joe)....to me it's mostly about ignorance and how they don't play the game and thus don't know how things really are at end-game.

    I don't know any game that requires doing +4 years old grind to catch up and be able to play the new content. It would be like having to farm DA essences gear, then osgiliath, MT, flowers all over ..... wouldn't make sense. Actually..it does exist, if you know FFXIV, you need that Ilevel thing gear as a requirement to "continue" the story line, the difference is, everytime there is an update, they make it easier for people to catch up by changing the prices of items/gear at NPCs from the former areas, like drastically, so you can get what you need to keep going in a matters of hours/days. Obviously that's not something that can be done in lotro, wouldn't be relevant anyway since you can quest and progress the story with "average gear".

    When it comes to the end-game though, good luck getting invited to fellowship with poor LIs.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Moln View Post
    I'm in West Rohan right now and have noticed the 'every quest (now including tasks) gives area currency' thing going on for a while. Does that continue in later areas? If so, I while there may be some flavor benefit to sticking scrolls/crystals on quests, we're getting the tokens anyway and (assuming there isn't some other way we *need* to use them all) I think it's just as easy to barter for them, and we get the same incremental effect Stormtower is looking for.

    I can't comment on SSG's revenue concerns, but from a player ease perspective, maybe they could add some sort of economizing object to the Relic Master, say 100,000 shards for +1 on all 8 legacies. (In chat discussions I've been told simultaneously that shards are useless after level 95 and that scrolls are to expensive to buy with shards-it doesn't seem to me that both could be true, but that's the perception on the topic I've encountered).
    Sadly, it doesn't. There is a currency for each area. Everything you do now, except questline related to traitpoints, is irrelevant to the endgame.

    You'll start receiving useful items once you start gondor (which comes with a currency that allows you to get other useful stuff for Lis)

    I don't know any sane person using shards to get scrolls LOL Maybe low-level scrolls.

  4. #104
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    I have skipped LI.

    You get very good weapons from Traveller boxes (at level) or Ered Mithrin Barter at top level and the other bonus is not worth the grind for me.

    The one exception is Bridle.
    The Elruthrim Brethren of Crickhollow
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  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Varkking View Post
    Yeah, I only commented to the user who said "here is what they should do" when that is what they already did. Either they are uninformed or its a "nothing will ever please this person" situation....When I see blind rage or homerism I jump in to provide the facts if I have them.

    "Uninformed" and "blind rage"? Hmmmmm....perhaps you should try reading a certain post one more time.

    Just a suggestion.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marancil View Post
    I have skipped LI.

    You get very good weapons from Traveller boxes (at level) or Ered Mithrin Barter at top level and the other bonus is not worth the grind for me.

    The one exception is Bridle.
    I think we are calling it a grind because we don't want to drop $200 in MC to max an LI. I agree the max damage figures we can get on an ILI is falling behind that of the off-hands available for barter boxes. I'm making the assumption that this is just a mistake and there has been a delay to the next ILI tier increase. I expected one for the T3 raid release, could be they listened, a bit.

    If just soloing then it's fine to skip LIs but in group play many classes have other roles to play and maxed legacies provide longer durations or lessen CDS, big buffs/debuffs, much the stronger heals, things that help when solo too.

    But you are prepared to spend LP on keys or perhaps have a stock of them to use on travellers boxes? I suppose it works out a lot cheaper than buying lots of MC for an ILI. It wouldn't look so good amongst fellows if you had a support or healing role that had you severely under powered compared with another with tricked out legacies. After grinding out scrolls for a couple of hours players wont want to wipe on a straight forward group instance because a spot taken by someone who could not function reasonably in a pivotal assigned role.

    So many of us don't have this option if we want to tackle group content. Or speedier landscape questing...
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord.Funk View Post
    If that math holds up (and I have no reason to doubt it does) and even if it would be a bit off it's truly insane.
    Actually, I purposefully did the math slightly wrong just to check the shock value. For it to be $500 the 23,000 lp pack needs to cost like 90 bucks ish, but in fact it's $200. The real price of fully capping the ILI of 1 charecter with mithril coins is about $930.
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballie View Post
    If just soloing then it's fine to skip LIs but in group play many classes have other roles to play and maxed legacies provide longer durations or lessen CDS, big buffs/debuffs, much the stronger heals, things that help when solo too.

    But you are prepared to spend LP on keys or perhaps have a stock of them to use on travellers boxes? I suppose it works out a lot cheaper than buying lots of MC for an ILI. It wouldn't look so good amongst fellows if you had a support or healing role that had you severely under powered compared with another with tricked out legacies. After grinding out scrolls for a couple of hours players wont want to wipe on a straight forward group instance because a spot taken by someone who could not function reasonably in a pivotal assigned role.

    So many of us don't have this option if we want to tackle group content. Or speedier landscape questing...
    I am mostly solo'ing so yes.

    Considering I am getting so many Traveller boxes I am actually throwing them away unopened due to the expense, yes I do spend some LP opening them, if not for the gear, for the Embers.

    So far I have never been in a situation (gaming since 2013), that I am aware of, where it was obvious I had to do additional work on my LI, and the LI only, to get a quest done. Then again, I find the whole system super complex and never really bothered to learn it ground up. The one LI I do take care of and upgrade are the Bridles, but those can't be imbued and stops at Westemnet. I would welcome an upgrade to those Relics.
    The Elruthrim Brethren of Crickhollow
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by sahanto View Post
    Actually, I purposefully did the math slightly wrong just to check the shock value. For it to be $500 the 23,000 lp pack needs to cost like 90 bucks ish, but in fact it's $200. The real price of fully capping the ILI of 1 charecter with mithril coins is about $930.
    With prices this outrageous, it's no wonder SSG is struggling with 3rd party sellers who can deliver product at a more appropriate price.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narthalion View Post
    "Uninformed" and "blind rage"? Hmmmmm....perhaps you should try reading a certain post one more time.

    Just a suggestion.
    I think you need to re-read the post of mine you quoted.
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  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by SerowLOTRO View Post
    I wish SSG would just remove the scrolls and crystals, and just require EXP to level. That flows so much better, so much more intuitive with the entire leveling process.
    This is exactly what they should have done - and made LIs an alternative advancement system conceptually similar to the variations used in many other games from ESO to Diablo 3

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Ballie View Post
    I think we are calling it a grind because we don't want to drop $200 in MC to max an LI.
    There is nothing wrong with some form of grind in my opinion. Every MMO has one. It becomes a problem when the ways you can earn a reward are extremely limited by design and you also have to completely rely on RNG. That's the current endgame situation when it comes to earning scrolls/crystals. [Yes, I'm aware that RNG is also part of itemization in MMOs, but when it comes to gearing up you still have an option to barter gear from the vendor. Knowing that you still can get a reward by putting in some some effort, even though that one single piece you're aiming at just doesn't seem to drop, is great game design because it limits the frustration that comes from having to rely on RNG.] Having to go back to do content from 4 years ago doesn't help either. Forcing your playerbase to spend money in the shop is simply a bad design choice. Not to mention the immediate gratification that comes with using the shop to buy LI upgrades. There is no effort involved and it's damaging. Same with lootbox rewards. If I want to gamble, which I don't, then I'm going to a casino.

    What you should aim at as a game designer:

    You want to give every player type legitimate and engaging options to progress their characters and have a sense of accomplishment by PLAYING the game. You want them to have goals to work towards where they can decide how to accomplish those goals. I want to log in and know WHAT I have to do to reach a certain goal, HOW exactly I'm going to get there and have a reasonable TIME FRAME depending on how much effort and time I'm willing to put in. Doesn't matter if I'm slower than others, but it was the work that I put in that got me to the destination and it feels great. That's how a healthy brain should work and what it does is that it creates a desire for more. Desire to earn more rewards results in more investment in the game. More investment = more accomplishment = continued investment.

    ->

    Quote Originally Posted by afuturestrader View Post

    A brilliant business man taught me long ago (1980's) the following question and answer which I share for your consideration. This is a point
    that many a failed gaming company failed to put into practice.

    Question: What is the purpose of a business? (no, it is not just to make money)

    Answer: The purpose of a business is the acquisition and maintenance of customers.

    I have found making good business decisions much easier looking at things from that perspective.
    What we need:
    - increased scroll/crystal drop rate from endgame instances/raids
    - 3/6/12 man roving threats on lvl 120 + roving threat quartermaster in Skarhald (you want people to go out into the world so that it feels more alive)
    - craftable currency that can be bartered for scrolls/crystals
    - adding scolls/crystals to dwarf-holds quartermasters in exchange for mark of the longbeards (maybe even coin of grarik)
    Last edited by Daenirion; Mar 31 2019 at 06:52 PM.
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  13. #113
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Daenirion View Post

    What we need:
    - increased scroll/crystal drop rate from endgame instances/raids
    - 3/6/12 man roving threats on lvl 120 + roving threat quartermaster in Skarhald (you want people to go out into the world so that it feels more alive)
    - craftable currency that can be bartered for scrolls/crystals
    - adding scolls/crystals to dwarf-holds quartermasters in exchange for mark of the longbeards (maybe even coin of grarik)
    /Signed

    All valid and good suggestions. Oh and not at redicolous prices like currently taking 42,660 Shards for one Emp Scroll. That surely must be someones bad joke to have added that. Nice trolling of the players in a way.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord.Funk View Post
    /Signed

    All valid and good suggestions. Oh and not at redicolous prices like currently taking 42,660 Shards for one Emp Scroll. That surely must be someones bad joke to have added that. Nice trolling of the players in a way.
    I think that 42k price was set when those were just the next tier of empowerment scroll when you only needed 20 or so to max out a (non-imbued) LI. It probably made sense when folks were spending all year generating shards and working on those level 100 LIs.

    I hope as we have this discussion, we're not only looking at adding crystals/scrolls for endgame players. As levels are added, there's more and more of a gap between imbuement and endgame, and each new(er) area has been presumably designed for people who as of the old endgame had maxed out LIs. So adding the catch up mechanism only at 120 (or 125/130 in the fall), is too late, I think. That's why I liked the idea of just adding them to *every* vendor after 100.

  15. #115
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    Adding Emp scrolls to every vendor from Dol Amroth to the current endgame, and reducing the cost of scrolls from all the various "Tokens of Zone X" at those vendors, is another elegant solution that would help keep people playing.

    The cynic in my says that SSG's business model is too dependent on Store sales of Emp scrolls to provide such an obvious and easy fix as those suggested in this thread.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moln View Post
    I think that 42k price was set when those were just the next tier of empowerment scroll when you only needed 20 or so to max out a (non-imbued) LI. It probably made sense when folks were spending all year generating shards and working on those level 100 LIs.
    Actually the 42k price was generated by either a really dumb designer or a really lazily made script.

    The cost of a lvl 60 Empowerment Scroll is 948 shards (exactly 2x the previous cost)
    The cost of a lvl 65 Empowerment Scroll is 1896 shards (exactly 2x the previous cost)
    The cost of a lvl 75 Empowerment Scroll is 3792 shards (exactly 3x the previous cost)
    The cost of a lvl 85 Empowerment Scroll is 9480 shards (exactly 2.5x the previous cost)
    The cost of a lvl 95 Empowerment Scroll is 28440 shards (exactly 3x the previous cost)
    The cost of a lvl 100 Empowerment Scroll is 42660 shards (exactly 1.5x the previous cost)

    The curve is close to that of an exponential one. The costs have been utterly ridiculous like this since 2013 and it has NEVER been changed to benefit players, because they would rather push people to the store.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormtower View Post
    The cynic in my says that SSG's business model is too dependent on Store sales of Emp scrolls to provide such an obvious and easy fix as those suggested in this thread.
    A part of the model was the players' use of LP to buy saleable items for making in game gold. The same model as the gold spammers. Even provided them with Shared Transfer between servers for express delivery for free. It was why they tried to tackle the problem so ineffectively for so long. But even after the immediate halting of the spam with the prevention of MC mail they choose to allow it on the Legendary Servers initially to recoup some of those losses. Real smarts.


    Seems odd that you'd have the same business model as a bunch of untrustworthy, lying, cynical fraudsters.

  18. #118
    The far more severe issue is that there is nothing legendary at all about legendary items. The whole system is broken.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by xxSniperxx View Post
    Actually the 42k price was generated by either a really dumb designer or a really lazily made script.

    The cost of a lvl 60 Empowerment Scroll is 948 shards (exactly 2x the previous cost)
    The cost of a lvl 65 Empowerment Scroll is 1896 shards (exactly 2x the previous cost)
    The cost of a lvl 75 Empowerment Scroll is 3792 shards (exactly 3x the previous cost)
    The cost of a lvl 85 Empowerment Scroll is 9480 shards (exactly 2.5x the previous cost)
    The cost of a lvl 95 Empowerment Scroll is 28440 shards (exactly 3x the previous cost)
    The cost of a lvl 100 Empowerment Scroll is 42660 shards (exactly 1.5x the previous cost)

    The curve is close to that of an exponential one. The costs have been utterly ridiculous like this since 2013 and it has NEVER been changed to benefit players, because they would rather push people to the store.
    Right, and those made sense for a while as there's a similar pattern (without getting too much into the math) in cost for melding LIs, combining relics, and shards to be made refining relics (up to about 80-it's hard to give numbers since there's some randomness involved, but it appears in my experimenting that level 80 LIs give the best shard return if you refine their relics on decon, if you have to buy an LI from the Relic Master, as the relics produced by deconning don't appear to increase after level (to use) 80).

  20. #120
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    How do you even get that amount of shards.... I remember spending some time doing instances for marks and getting LI's from Training Camp, hundreds, to get 3-4 Relics I thought I needed at that time, it was ridiculous the amount of combinations I did and the time it took. That was before being able to do multiple at a time you can do now.
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  21. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Moln View Post
    I can't comment on SSG's revenue concerns, but from a player ease perspective, maybe they could add some sort of economizing object to the Relic Master, say 100,000 shards for +1 on all 8 legacies. (In chat discussions I've been told simultaneously that shards are useless after level 95 and that scrolls are to expensive to buy with shards-it doesn't seem to me that both could be true, but that's the perception on the topic I've encountered).
    Yes, shards are highly inefficient after level 95. I actually decided to burn most of my sealed relics collection this morning, seeing what I could get for Anfalas Scrolls of Empowerment. And the results were horrifying. I deconned more than is pictured here, going through a total of 1225 sealed relics of T5 and higher. (Being a casual player, it's taken a few years to amass this collection.) I went from 8,218 shards to 357,753 shards, and even that was worth only EIGHT scrolls.




  22. #122
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    I have been doing this for some time. Use free slots for "junk" 3rd age LIs. Get them as cheaply as possible. Level them up, decon them, decon the relics into shards. Don't meld the relics. Decon them. If the Empowerments are less than 20g each on the AH. Buy them, otherwise, meld them. Run every piece of content that drops them. Decon the relics you get. I have over 1 million shards still. That's after melding some 2 million shards for ASoEs. Run all of the content that drops star-lits. Do RTs. The occasional Morgul Crests get you a few more ASoEs or star-lits.

    That said, this system does need improvement. Of 9 cap mains, I have capped all of them but one and that one needs one star-lit.
    "No sadder words of tongue or pen are the words: 'Might have been'." -- John Greenleaf Whittier
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    Indeed, in a world and life full of change, the only constant is human nature (A is A, after all :P).
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  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdq1958 View Post
    I have been doing this for some time. Use free slots for "junk" 3rd age LIs. Get them as cheaply as possible. Level them up, decon them, decon the relics into shards. Don't meld the relics. Decon them. If the Empowerments are less than 20g each on the AH. Buy them, otherwise, meld them. Run every piece of content that drops them. Decon the relics you get. I have over 1 million shards still. That's after melding some 2 million shards for ASoEs.
    Those 'million' numbers might sound impressive until you realize that "2 million shards" is about just enough to max a single legacy on a single ILI.

    And what about underlying cost?
    Lets do math. From my experience, typical decon of a maxed (60) lvl 100 LI yields 1 t7 relic, a buch of t6 and some t5. Rarely you get a crit with 3-4 t7s. But typically refining all relics from a decon yields about 2600 shards. Means you need to decon 18 maxed LIs to meld a single ASoE.
    Thing is, this aint free. You need to ID the LI and then do 6 reforges. You can pay shards, which will cost about 2700 shards per LI, and will often put you into negative on shards. Or you pay coin, which is about 2.8 gold per LI.
    Cost to level/decon 18 LI? 50g. That's a mighty expensive ASoE.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by scorrp10 View Post
    Those 'million' numbers might sound impressive until you realize that "2 million shards" is about just enough to max a single legacy on a single ILI.

    And what about underlying cost?
    Lets do math. From my experience, typical decon of a maxed (60) lvl 100 LI yields 1 t7 relic, a buch of t6 and some t5. Rarely you get a crit with 3-4 t7s. But typically refining all relics from a decon yields about 2600 shards. Means you need to decon 18 maxed LIs to meld a single ASoE.
    Thing is, this aint free. You need to ID the LI and then do 6 reforges. You can pay shards, which will cost about 2700 shards per LI, and will often put you into negative on shards. Or you pay coin, which is about 2.8 gold per LI.
    Cost to level/decon 18 LI? 50g. That's a mighty expensive ASoE.
    50g to get 1 scroll of empowerment with shards, instead of buying them for 25-30g each. Imagine that... LMAO

    I don't even know why some people tried to get scrolls with shards. They probably thought they were really clever, buying LIs for very cheap on AH and not spending gold but they ended up LOSING gold just to get the same result.
    The only acceptable thing that you can obtain with shards are the relics that one uses for partial BPE for tanking or devastate mag for DPS.

  25. #125
    Dear Devs,

    Well, another Monday has come. And I just thought I'd ask if you all had decided on anything resembling a "temporary fix", "band-aid", or whatever else it might be called concerning the LI fiasco? There are plenty of good suggestions by lots of players within this very thread that you could enable quickly, while we all await your "complete revamp" for next year.

    If this seems sarcastic...I apologize. It's just that over the weekend another two newer players that I had helped get up to the higher lvls in LOTRO quit the game. They loved the lore, enjoyed the quests, and even put up with the start of Mordor (*grin*), but they just got so frustrated with the endless grind for the LIs.

    They asked me, and others in our Kin, "When does this crystal/scroll grind get better?" And none of us had an answer.

    And before anyone gets all feisty and says, "Why didn't your Kin help them grind!!" We did. A lot. But even so, the sheer numbers became overwhelming to them.

    They were great guys, who we'll miss. But sadly at this point...I don't blame them for leaving. If I hadn't of been here so long and raised my LIs step-by-step over time...I'd probably be joining them.

    Take care.

 

 
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