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  1. #26
    Even if the scaling issues are fixed, the fatal flaw with HoH is that you almost always need to be in melee range of enemies to use your healing skills. This is inconvenient in tons of encounters which means the Captain cannot be a viable endgame healer as long it is a melee healer.

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    Time to repeat myself once more.

    The numbers that you are throwing around are completely arbitrary. "Nerf Revealing Mark (RM) to 5%." Why? Every issue that currently exists with RM will still be in place when brought down to 5%. The issue is not the percentage return, it is the design. The healing return is directly proportional to the amount of players attacking the target. Such an ability cannot be balanced around solo play, as well as 12-man raids.
    Therefore, RM in its current form needs to be removed, and replaced.

    Red captains should not rely on a mark from another trait line to sustain themselves, either.
    Guess I've to repeat myself once more. Yes revealing is op for the group. But for the captain it's not, such mechanic is easily balanced when the class is incapable of dealing large amount of dmg (being a support). Such mechanic can be balanced when the class doesn't deal as much damage. Heck even if he does a lot of damage, the captain will still be balanced because he'll trade it off. Your statement about captain being overpowered with revealing is ridiculous and out of question. You can keep this discussion going, but I'll always be there to deny you and prove you're wrong when it comes to the captain.

    It's your opinion vs my opinion, I think that revealing is fairly balanced for the captain himself. But for other classes it can nerfed. Btw I liked your question to change an aoe healer to a single target healer xDDDD lel

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBaggy View Post
    Even if the scaling issues are fixed, the fatal flaw with HoH is that you almost always need to be in melee range of enemies to use your healing skills. This is inconvenient in tons of encounters which means the Captain cannot be a viable endgame healer as long it is a melee healer.
    Yes and no. I rarely run into issues with being in melee range while healing on any classes I heal on. It is so rare, it's really not worth mentioning. You just have to watch positioning and know how and where your tank is moving. I've healed on Beorning, LM, and Cappy recently, and all three of them I stay in melee range almost 100% of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    Guess I've to repeat myself once more. Yes revealing is op for the group. But for the captain it's not, such mechanic is easily balanced when the class is incapable of dealing large amount of dmg (being a support). Such mechanic can be balanced when the class doesn't deal as much damage. Heck even if he does a lot of damage, the captain will still be balanced because he'll trade it off. Your statement about captain being overpowered with revealing is ridiculous and out of question. You can keep this discussion going, but I'll always be there to deny you and prove you're wrong when it comes to the captain.

    It's your opinion vs my opinion, I think that revealing is fairly balanced for the captain himself. But for other classes it can nerfed. Btw I liked your question to change an aoe healer to a single target healer xDDDD lel
    You haven't proven him wrong though. You just dodge the points he makes. Having percentage-based heal returns in the game is inherently broken nowadays because of the exponential damage scaling that exists, and because of the variance in player damage due to LI imbument, essences, etc. Because of buffs/debuffs increasing damage parses the larger a group gets, it is impossible to scale something like Revealing Mark to actually be balanced in all situations, solo, 3man, 6man, and raid. Instead, it should be a fixed morale return (IE, on any skill damage, heal x morale to attacker) at a low magnitude (~500-1k). The argument could be made on whether all damage, or just skill uses should return a heal. I'm not really sure myself without seeing actual numbers in a beta situation.

    If this is accomplished, then it would be fair in most situations. Sure, when solo Noble Mark will probably end up being a stronger self-heal, but is that really a bad thing? In 3/6mans, it would be enough healing to give the healer a bit of respite that they wouldn't normally have without a Cappy in the group. In raids, it would allow DPS and support classes to heal themselves for roughly the same amount, being enough healing to gradually fill up your bar after a big hit. DPS doesn't need to have 10-25k HPS from Revealing Mark alone. If they are taking that much damage, then you need a new tank. DPS just needs heals after the infrequent, heavy hitting AoE attacks that many bosses these days do, and for that purpose, having a low-magnitude, fixed morale return is more than adequate. Most classes already have their own self heals anyway, and there is a healer in the group to do that job regardless...


    Besides, if Revealing Mark gets nerfed, it opens up the possibility for Cappy heal skills to get buffed, so in terms of direct healing output Cappies would actually get stronger to compensate. It will just require slightly more skill than one click and going AFK for 5-10 minutes. Until Revealing Mark receives a nerf, there isn't justification to buff healing skills. As such, our blueline will never really be viable until this change is made without making the class a stupidly overpowered healer.
    Last edited by ColMcStacky; Apr 12 2019 at 01:18 PM.

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    Besides, if Revealing Mark gets nerfed, it opens up the possibility for Cappy heal skills to get buffed, so in terms of direct healing output Cappies would actually get stronger to compensate. It will just require slightly more skill than one click and going AFK for 5-10 minutes. Until Revealing Mark receives a nerf, there isn't justification to buff healing skills. As such, our blueline will never really be viable until this change is made without making the class a stupidly overpowered healer.
    Very well said, and I agree with every word.

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    Yes and no. I rarely run into issues with being in melee range while healing on any classes I heal on. It is so rare, it's really not worth mentioning. You just have to watch positioning and know how and where your tank is moving. I've healed on Beorning, LM, and Cappy recently, and all three of them I stay in melee range almost 100% of the time.



    You haven't proven him wrong though. You just dodge the points he makes. Having percentage-based heal returns in the game is inherently broken nowadays because of the exponential damage scaling that exists, and because of the variance in player damage due to LI imbument, essences, etc. Because of buffs/debuffs increasing damage parses the larger a group gets, it is impossible to scale something like Revealing Mark to actually be balanced in all situations, solo, 3man, 6man, and raid. Instead, it should be a fixed morale return (IE, on any skill damage, heal x morale to attacker) at a low magnitude (~500-1k). The argument could be made on whether all damage, or just skill uses should return a heal. I'm not really sure myself without seeing actual numbers in a beta situation.

    If this is accomplished, then it would be fair in most situations. Sure, when solo Noble Mark will probably end up being a stronger self-heal, but is that really a bad thing? In 3/6mans, it would be enough healing to give the healer a bit of respite that they wouldn't normally have without a Cappy in the group. In raids, it would allow DPS and support classes to heal themselves for roughly the same amount, being enough healing to gradually fill up your bar after a big hit. DPS doesn't need to have 10-25k HPS from Revealing Mark alone. If they are taking that much damage, then you need a new tank. DPS just needs heals after the infrequent, heavy hitting AoE attacks that many bosses these days do, and for that purpose, having a low-magnitude, fixed morale return is more than adequate. Most classes already have their own self heals anyway, and there is a healer in the group to do that job regardless...


    Besides, if Revealing Mark gets nerfed, it opens up the possibility for Cappy heal skills to get buffed, so in terms of direct healing output Cappies would actually get stronger to compensate. It will just require slightly more skill than one click and going AFK for 5-10 minutes. Until Revealing Mark receives a nerf, there isn't justification to buff healing skills. As such, our blueline will never really be viable until this change is made without making the class a stupidly overpowered healer.
    In group content I cant care less about the nerf on revealing, it can be 2%, it can be 5%, idc. However thats not the point here, I've proven him wrong in regards to using noble mark instead of revealing like he suggest earlier. Noble simply doesnt cover the heals a captain himself needs. I'm talking in solo terms here, that being landscape. The captain is very balanced when he uses 15% revealing for himself, thats why suggestion prob comes out as best, nerf the group revealing asmuch as you want but keep the 15% revealing for the captain himself. This allowed the captain to be fairly sustainable on healing in landscape situations. Currently captain really does lack on landscape, newly made captains by people who just start playing will just endup in suffering once they do content alone. With a 120k pool + noble u get 1.2k heal return on a hit, you think this is gonna help you in mordor for example? In mordor its even less, its like 800

    If u want more survival w/ noble, u fill more morale, in expense of ur dps. I really do not see the point in this, its gonna be a trade-off and u end-up with the same vs multiple enemies. It's just a poor suggestion, this is why 15% revealing is very nice for a captain, solo they do not do that much damage, they got an okay defense due being heavy and having reductions, this allows the captain to be self-sustainable with its defense.

    For the captain alone, revealing is NOT overpowered, just the captain, mark my words and dont repeat this mistake again. For the group, yes, I agree on it being OP.

    If u allow stronger self-healing in a captain, they'll become OP. Because it's very simple, with the current dmg reduction in all lines +30% outgoing heal & so on, they'll become very strong in self sustainability. They can throw everything on mitigations and let those do the work for them, dropping down their dmg output in expense of that. We've alrdy seen a class with some similarity in that aspect. High Defences through buffing and high selfhealing, doesn't it sound familiar?
    WhiteGoliath

  6. #31
    I guess it's never occures to you that there can, and shall be other ways then Revealing Mark to make landscape part of the game enjoyable for a Captain.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Arabani View Post
    I guess it's never occures to you that there can, and shall be other ways then Revealing Mark to make landscape part of the game enjoyable for a Captain.
    sadly you dont get my point.
    WhiteGoliath

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    Having percentage-based heal returns in the game is inherently broken nowadays because of the exponential damage scaling that exists
    I would personally just drop the first part of this bit:
    the game is inherently broken nowadays because of the exponential damage scaling that exists

    And it goes both ways, both the amount of damage that DPS classes do as well as the insane hits that bosses do.
    Sadly, this seems to be a course that development is dead-set on, so I'm not expecting much change in this any time soon.

    The problem with fixed heals instead of percentage though is exactly how we ended up with the poor state of captain healing skills atm, revealing mark excepted. So I am not convinced that changing RM in this regard is a good idea.
    Besides, it is not RM that has actually been changed, the percentage return has been like this since at least F2P and probably since game launch. So I find the connotation that it is the skill that's broken a bit difficult to accept.
    Of course things change and evolve over time. But the percentage return really has been this big a problem only since the last few levelcaps.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    In 3/6mans, it would be enough healing to give the healer a bit of respite that they wouldn't normally have without a Cappy in the group. In raids, it would allow DPS and support classes to heal themselves for roughly the same amount, being enough healing to gradually fill up your bar after a big hit. DPS doesn't need to have 10-25k HPS from Revealing Mark alone. If they are taking that much damage, then you need a new tank. DPS just needs heals after the infrequent, heavy hitting AoE attacks that many bosses these days do, and for that purpose, having a low-magnitude, fixed morale return is more than adequate. Most classes already have their own self heals anyway, and there is a healer in the group to do that job regardless...
    I don't see why there should be need for another healer in a 3-man or 6-man if there is a blue captain? Or another healer in raids, for the blue captain's group?

    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    Besides, if Revealing Mark gets nerfed, it opens up the possibility for Cappy heal skills to get buffed, so in terms of direct healing output Cappies would actually get stronger to compensate. It will just require slightly more skill than one click and going AFK for 5-10 minutes. Until Revealing Mark receives a nerf, there isn't justification to buff healing skills. As such, our blueline will never really be viable until this change is made without making the class a stupidly overpowered healer.
    When you'd take a healing role, which going blueline should be about, your main focus would be on the tank. RM in it's current state is not overpowered for tank healing so I don't see why fixing the rest of blue captain would first need it to be nerfed.
    Granted, it could become too easy and boring because you might be able to solely focus on tank healing. But then I would refer back to my first point - I don't think it is RM that's actually broken. And I would still be reluctant to it being nerfed - only to see it become completely useless on the next stat/levelcap update.

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    Guess I've to repeat myself once more. Yes revealing is op for the group. But for the captain it's not, such mechanic is easily balanced when the class is incapable of dealing large amount of dmg (being a support). Such mechanic can be balanced when the class doesn't deal as much damage. Heck even if he does a lot of damage, the captain will still be balanced because he'll trade it off. Your statement about captain being overpowered with revealing is ridiculous and out of question. You can keep this discussion going, but I'll always be there to deny you and prove you're wrong when it comes to the captain.
    This is just an incoherent string of words. "Even if he does a lot of damage, the captain will still be balanced because he'll trade it off." You've said exactly nothing here. You didn't elaborate on it, you just made a statement, saying that captains aren't overpowered. You're objectively wrong. I've explained to you why, and you haven't refuted my argument. Your only comeback is: "Oh but it's not overpowered when I'm solo, therefore it's not broken." That's not an argument. The reason for class balance isn't so that everyone can do landscape content.
    Literally anyone can do landscape content, even captains without Revealing Mark. What the balance updates are for, is group content. And in groups, Revealing Mark is broken. The larger the group, the greater the morale return, the more broken it becomes. This is a fact. Quick mathematics will show this. Assume that:
    - 6 DPS in a 12-man raid
    - 120k DPS per person
    Revealing Mark then returns a total of 0.15*120k*6 = 108k HPS. This exceeds the HPS of a minstrel in a raid setting. All of that healing is provided by simply activating Revealing Mark. You cannot find a better example of a broken skill than this. To add insult to injury, this is accessible to any captain, not just blue line captains. That means every captain has access to more than 50% of a blue line captain's healing. Please, tell me more about how it's "not broken"?

    You've demonstrated one thing, and one thing alone; that you'll indeed always be here to deny what I'm saying. You can deny it as much as you want, that does not change the facts. You're incapable of proving me wrong, and thinking that you've done so already just shows signs of delusion on your part. Come to terms with the fact that Revealing Mark is broken, and find a solution to it that you think it suitable. Stop denying the facts.

    It's your opinion vs my opinion, I think that revealing is fairly balanced for the captain himself. But for other classes it can nerfed. Btw I liked your question to change an aoe healer to a single target healer xDDDD lel
    No, it's quite literally factual that Revealing Mark is broken. Nothing about this is my opinion, apart from the threshold that I set to be "broken". However, exceeding a minstrel's healing with one single passive ability should qualify as "broken" in any sane person's mind. As for the final remark, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Single target healer? I think HoH captains should have strong single target healing. Any healing spec should, otherwise it will never be on par with other healers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    In group content I cant care less about the nerf on revealing, it can be 2%, it can be 5%, idc. However thats not the point here, I've proven him wrong in regards to using noble mark instead of revealing like he suggest earlier. Noble simply doesnt cover the heals a captain himself needs. I'm talking in solo terms here, that being landscape. The captain is very balanced when he uses 15% revealing for himself, thats why suggestion prob comes out as best, nerf the group revealing asmuch as you want but keep the 15% revealing for the captain himself. This allowed the captain to be fairly sustainable on healing in landscape situations. Currently captain really does lack on landscape, newly made captains by people who just start playing will just endup in suffering once they do content alone. With a 120k pool + noble u get 1.2k heal return on a hit, you think this is gonna help you in mordor for example? In mordor its even less, its like 800
    If you actually need any kind of healing from Revealing Mark while doing landscape content, then I think we've successfully identified the problem here, and it's not the captain class. It's you. Also, you keep on stating that Revealing Mark is not broken. That's false. You just restrict your vision to the only area in the game in which it is not broken.

    Furthermore, I will once again repeat: if a red line captain needs a healing mark from blue line, in order to survive doing landscape content, then red line's solo DPS is horrendously underpowered, and needs to be buffed. It doesn't mean that Revealing Mark needs to stay in place, so that handicapped captains will be able to find a way to do landscape content, in spite of their atrocious DPS. Since we're discussing a captain balance update here, the obvious answer is to nerf Revealing Mark, and buff the DPS of solo red line captains. Not to keep Revealing Mark in place, with all of the issues that come along with it.

    If u want more survival w/ noble, u fill more morale, in expense of ur dps. I really do not see the point in this, its gonna be a trade-off and u end-up with the same vs multiple enemies. It's just a poor suggestion, this is why 15% revealing is very nice for a captain, solo they do not do that much damage, they got an okay defense due being heavy and having reductions, this allows the captain to be self-sustainable with its defense.
    Irrelevant statement #1

    For the captain alone, revealing is NOT overpowered, just the captain, mark my words and dont repeat this mistake again. For the group, yes, I agree on it being OP.
    In the case, stop contradicting yourself:
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteGoliath View Post
    From all the ridiculous changes I've seen people suggest, was the removal of bluemark(revealing) the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen being asked regarding captains class.

    Blue mark is in a fine position atm, not overpowered, but yes it's strong.
    Which one are you going to stick with? Choose carefully, because if you admit that it's overpowered for groups (which means it's overpowered - this is an MMO, group content is its bread and butter), then you admit that I was right all along. For some reason, I think you would have an issue with that.

    If u allow stronger self-healing in a captain, they'll become OP. Because it's very simple, with the current dmg reduction in all lines +30% outgoing heal & so on, they'll become very strong in self sustainability. They can throw everything on mitigations and let those do the work for them, dropping down their dmg output in expense of that. We've alrdy seen a class with some similarity in that aspect. High Defences through buffing and high selfhealing, doesn't it sound familiar?
    Irrelevant statement #2

    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    Besides, if Revealing Mark gets nerfed, it opens up the possibility for Cappy heal skills to get buffed, so in terms of direct healing output Cappies would actually get stronger to compensate. It will just require slightly more skill than one click and going AFK for 5-10 minutes. Until Revealing Mark receives a nerf, there isn't justification to buff healing skills. As such, our blueline will never really be viable until this change is made without making the class a stupidly overpowered healer.
    Exactly, I've been saying this since the very start of the whole blue line captain discussion, and it's high time that everyone just gets on board with this.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
    Also known as Giliodor

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by rondomir View Post
    I would personally just drop the first part of this bit:
    the game is inherently broken nowadays because of the exponential damage scaling that exists

    And it goes both ways, both the amount of damage that DPS classes do as well as the insane hits that bosses do.
    Sadly, this seems to be a course that development is dead-set on, so I'm not expecting much change in this any time soon.
    Point taken, although that's part of a broader discussion than I was aiming for. I do agree though that the exponential scaling for itemization, damage, etc., is the crux of many problems with the game these days, and by either switching to a linear progression model or simply making the exponential scaling less steep, the game would be in a much better place. That's a discussion for another day though. As it stands now, I get the feeling that we just have to live with this progression model they've been using since Eastern Rohan if memory serves, and as such, Revealing Mark becomes a large problem whereas in the past it was not such a big deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by rondomir View Post
    The problem with fixed heals instead of percentage though is exactly how we ended up with the poor state of captain healing skills atm, revealing mark excepted. So I am not convinced that changing RM in this regard is a good idea.
    Besides, it is not RM that has actually been changed, the percentage return has been like this since at least F2P and probably since game launch. So I find the connotation that it is the skill that's broken a bit difficult to accept.
    Of course things change and evolve over time. But the percentage return really has been this big a problem only since the last few levelcaps.
    While you are right that changing Revealing Mark to a fixed heal runs the risk of it being forgotten when scaling with a new level cap, in my opinion, what we have currently is a far worse situation in terms of balance.

    And as I've touched on in my above statements, Revealing Mark itself hasn't changed, but its healing output has changed significantly due to the exponential damage scaling we have been experiencing for years. In the past, Revealing Mark was well designed because up until (I believe) Isengard, LOTRO used a linear scaling for damage/stats. With Rohan, the root of this problem was created when this model was changed to an exponential scale. We are finally starting to see the repercussions of this bad design now because so much time has passed. Also, Revealing Mark is only going to get worse in terms of scaling until we move back to a linear model. At what point do we finally say "This is too broken"?

    Quote Originally Posted by rondomir View Post
    I don't see why there should be need for another healer in a 3-man or 6-man if there is a blue captain? Or another healer in raids, for the blue captain's group?
    You didn't quite understand my point here. I wasn't saying the Cappy would be traited blueline. Simply that a red or yellow Cappy could easily pick up Revealing Mark (as it should be able to) and depending on the group, you can forgo a healer entirely. I doubt that this is intended design.

    Quote Originally Posted by rondomir View Post
    When you'd take a healing role, which going blueline should be about, your main focus would be on the tank. RM in it's current state is not overpowered for tank healing so I don't see why fixing the rest of blue captain would first need it to be nerfed.
    Granted, it could become too easy and boring because you might be able to solely focus on tank healing. But then I would refer back to my first point - I don't think it is RM that's actually broken. And I would still be reluctant to it being nerfed - only to see it become completely useless on the next stat/levelcap update.
    It's not overpowered for most tanks, no, but it isn't a skill that only affects tanks. As such, the effect that the skill has on the entire group needs to be put under scrutiny. At the moment, Revealing Mark provides too much AoE healing by doing absolutely nothing, as in 6mans/raids, it can outheal the best of healers with this one skill. Since blueline is so AoE focused when it comes to heals, there is no justifiable reason to buff it while keeping Revealing Mark the same since the AoE heals are not necessary. This means that so long as Revealing Mark isn't changed, blueline becomes obsolete, as you can get 95% of its healing output from any traitline. That is simply bad design.

    Besides, why does a DPS need to be getting anywhere from 10-25k HPS from one passive skill alone? It relegates the mechanics of healing to those of power restoration, being almost entirely outdated. Adjusting the percentage won't be a good idea for longevity either, as with the exponential scaling, it will just become an issue again a few years down the line. As such, the best course of action is to just make it a flat-rate heal per hit. I don't want healing to be entirely superfluous when it comes to group play, which is nearly what it has become when you have Revealing Mark.

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    This is just an incoherent string of words. "Even if he does a lot of damage, the captain will still be balanced because he'll trade it off." You've said exactly nothing here. You didn't elaborate on it, you just made a statement, saying that captains aren't overpowered. You're objectively wrong. I've explained to you why, and you haven't refuted my argument. Your only comeback is: "Oh but it's not overpowered when I'm solo, therefore it's not broken." That's not an argument. The reason for class balance isn't so that everyone can do landscape content.
    Literally anyone can do landscape content, even captains without Revealing Mark. What the balance updates are for, is group content. And in groups, Revealing Mark is broken. The larger the group, the greater the morale return, the more broken it becomes. This is a fact. Quick mathematics will show this. Assume that:
    - 6 DPS in a 12-man raid
    - 120k DPS per person
    Revealing Mark then returns a total of 0.15*120k*6 = 108k HPS. This exceeds the HPS of a minstrel in a raid setting. All of that healing is provided by simply activating Revealing Mark. You cannot find a better example of a broken skill than this. To add insult to injury, this is accessible to any captain, not just blue line captains. That means every captain has access to more than 50% of a blue line captain's healing. Please, tell me more about how it's "not broken"?

    You've demonstrated one thing, and one thing alone; that you'll indeed always be here to deny what I'm saying. You can deny it as much as you want, that does not change the facts. You're incapable of proving me wrong, and thinking that you've done so already just shows signs of delusion on your part. Come to terms with the fact that Revealing Mark is broken, and find a solution to it that you think it suitable. Stop denying the facts.




    Unfortunately, I've to conclude that you're incapable of understanding my point. The Captain, yes the captain and NOT the group is NOT overpowered with revealing because it's own damage is smaller than that of other classes. The fact you bring up group related when I talk about the class alone says that you tried to bend what I say, aka sabotaging my statement.

    lets do the math again, one captain doing about 80k dps = 12k hps. In PvP situations this is about 15k dps, 15k*0.15= 2.25k HPS for the captain, stop trying to bend my words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    No, it's quite literally factual that Revealing Mark is broken. Nothing about this is my opinion, apart from the threshold that I set to be "broken". However, exceeding a minstrel's healing with one single passive ability should qualify as "broken" in any sane person's mind. As for the final remark, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Single target healer? I think HoH captains should have strong single target healing. Any healing spec should, otherwise it will never be on par with other healers.
    a minstrel should be busy with the tank, not with the group, thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    If you actually need any kind of healing from Revealing Mark while doing landscape content, then I think we've successfully identified the problem here, and it's not the captain class. It's you. Also, you keep on stating that Revealing Mark is not broken. That's false. You just restrict your vision to the only area in the game in which it is not broken.

    Furthermore, I will once again repeat: if a red line captain needs a healing mark from blue line, in order to survive doing landscape content, then red line's solo DPS is horrendously underpowered, and needs to be buffed. It doesn't mean that Revealing Mark needs to stay in place, so that handicapped captains will be able to find a way to do landscape content, in spite of their atrocious DPS. Since we're discussing a captain balance update here, the obvious answer is to nerf Revealing Mark, and buff the DPS of solo red line captains. Not to keep Revealing Mark in place, with all of the issues that come along with it.

    cuz thats the whole point, you seem to forget that if a captain loses revealing, he wont have much sustainability left. You try to argue with someone who gives 0 fs for the nerfs of revealing on the group. Infact I agree on it, so against what do you try to argue exactly? That revealing is OP for a captain in solo related content? Which I am actually talking about ALL the time? You seem to completely miss my point, you don't seem to understand that a captain needs some form of sustainability to his disposal. Simply buffing the current dmg output of captains will cause the class to go off grid for heavy, this due captain already being capable of achieving 100k+ dps in a raid. A support class with heavy armour should never be able to do 150k+ DPS.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    Irrelevant statement #1
    I think I was quite correct, your statements are irrelevant towards me, since I do not care if it gets nerfed for a group to 2%.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    In the case, stop contradicting yourself:
    Maybe I changed my mind? Maybe I was talking about the class itself and not group related? Some people enjoy using the class for soloplay like me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post

    Which one are you going to stick with? Choose carefully, because if you admit that it's overpowered for groups (which means it's overpowered - this is an MMO, group content is its bread and butter), then you admit that I was right all along. For some reason, I think you would have an issue with that.
    It's good to see you pop up on the forums whenever I do say something, it says quite a lot x) In any case, there's a greyzone here that you seem to miss out on.

    You did realize that just now? I've been stating that revealing is OP for several months now, but the problem lies with the class itself outside of the whole group point. There needs to be some form of sustainability that can replace it, simply buffing the DPS of a captain to make up for the missing heal is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    Irrelevant statement #2
    Unfortunately, not everyone is gonna agree, not by a long shot. Revealing needs to be there for the captain to sustain itself, selfheals are not gonna cut it. Keep revealing mark in, but adjust it so that only captains benefit from it. If people still want revealing, you can make scale a second mark on it down to 5%. Like I stated many times, this mechanic alrdy exists with noble.





    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    Point taken, although that's part of a broader discussion than I was aiming for. I do agree though that the exponential scaling for itemization, damage, etc., is the crux of many problems with the game these days, and by either switching to a linear progression model or simply making the exponential scaling less steep, the game would be in a much better place. That's a discussion for another day though. As it stands now, I get the feeling that we just have to live with this progression model they've been using since Eastern Rohan if memory serves, and as such, Revealing Mark becomes a large problem whereas in the past it was not such a big deal.



    While you are right that changing Revealing Mark to a fixed heal runs the risk of it being forgotten when scaling with a new level cap, in my opinion, what we have currently is a far worse situation in terms of balance.

    And as I've touched on in my above statements, Revealing Mark itself hasn't changed, but its healing output has changed significantly due to the exponential damage scaling we have been experiencing for years. In the past, Revealing Mark was well designed because up until (I believe) Isengard, LOTRO used a linear scaling for damage/stats. With Rohan, the root of this problem was created when this model was changed to an exponential scale. We are finally starting to see the repercussions of this bad design now because so much time has passed. Also, Revealing Mark is only going to get worse in terms of scaling until we move back to a linear model. At what point do we finally say "This is too broken"?



    You didn't quite understand my point here. I wasn't saying the Cappy would be traited blueline. Simply that a red or yellow Cappy could easily pick up Revealing Mark (as it should be able to) and depending on the group, you can forgo a healer entirely. I doubt that this is intended design.



    It's not overpowered for most tanks, no, but it isn't a skill that only affects tanks. As such, the effect that the skill has on the entire group needs to be put under scrutiny. At the moment, Revealing Mark provides too much AoE healing by doing absolutely nothing, as in 6mans/raids, it can outheal the best of healers with this one skill. Since blueline is so AoE focused when it comes to heals, there is no justifiable reason to buff it while keeping Revealing Mark the same since the AoE heals are not necessary. This means that so long as Revealing Mark isn't changed, blueline becomes obsolete, as you can get 95% of its healing output from any traitline. That is simply bad design.

    Besides, why does a DPS need to be getting anywhere from 10-25k HPS from one passive skill alone? It relegates the mechanics of healing to those of power restoration, being almost entirely outdated. Adjusting the percentage won't be a good idea for longevity either, as with the exponential scaling, it will just become an issue again a few years down the line. As such, the best course of action is to just make it a flat-rate heal per hit. I don't want healing to be entirely superfluous when it comes to group play, which is nearly what it has become when you have Revealing Mark.


    The way they currently designed the raids asks most healers to pay full attention to their tanks due the incoming damage, they simply can't deal with others to be healed. This is where Revealing currently kicks in, with healers having no breathing room to heal the group, revealing does that instead. Though, I do not like how strong revealing has become, untill now the only class it's currently balanced for is the captain himself. But other classes like hunters get ridiculous healing from it, however I think the blue captain its design was intended as AOE healer. The benefit of AOE healing is that its able to deal better with distributed and AOE damage. Thus making a blue captain ideal for situations like rakothas back then. With the current design, blue captains have become quite irrelevant. Their lack of healing both single target as for scaling on current build, makes them total rubbish. However, they still could make up for healing and dmg buffing on the group. Though, with the current design of how things go, you have another option as blue captain.

    Apart from being able to boost tactical damage output, I've seen that blue captains are able to completely erase the need of tank in 3-man instances. Though I doubt if it's intended, but with the current DPS of RKs and hunters, they essentially can become the replacement of a tank. If the incoming damage is toomuch, hunters have the benefit of kiting on their blue line to minimize incoming damage while a blue captain tries to heal him. Rks gain exponential damage output due ISP and the tactical damage buffs a blue captain provides. With their large dots for revealing and add-up heal from a blue captain, they can completely erase the need of a tank. You can just enter CoS with 2 hunters as blue captain during mordor, with glimmer u can simply use a blue hunter for the first boss and let a second dps/support deal with the adds. I've no idea how this would go on 6-man situations, but I think it's gonna have the same effect. Ofcourse they can't deal well with heavy spike dmg, for that you'll need a tank and even then you'll see a blue captain struggling a lot. A good example is the 6-man t3 Thikil Gundul boss 2, they're almost unable to deal with spike dmg coming in on a guardian or beorn.


    However, the healing of a blue captain fits perfectly on wardens and yellow captains. This due yellow captains being able to build a lot more incoming healing in compare to guardians. Wardens on the other hand suffer from the same issue, they lack scaling on their heals. Though a blue captain can make up for it, because blue cpt is still in a support role ofcourse. Everything a blue captain has and does fits well with wardens. Even the -x% attack duration they provide, but I doubt whether it's gonna surpass a combi like mini and guardian. I myself haven't tested the capability of blue captains yet regarding different combi. I know they do not fit well on guardians and beorn tanks, it's an absolute pain to heal them. From the past, I'd remember healing wardens and yellow captains was a lot better. Yellow captains able to build inc heal, wardens having light dots (revealing) and his self-heals, which does fit with hands of healing.

    I'll test it later to see how things roll out.
    Last edited by Zaheer; Apr 25 2019 at 06:26 AM.
    WhiteGoliath

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    Unfortunately, I've to conclude that you're incapable of understanding my point. The Captain, yes the captain and NOT the group is NOT overpowered with revealing because it's own damage is smaller than that of other classes. The fact you bring up group related when I talk about the class alone says that you tried to bend what I say, aka sabotaging my statement.

    lets do the math again, one captain doing about 80k dps = 12k hps. In PvP situations this is about 15k dps, 15k*0.15= 2.25k HPS for the captain, stop trying to bend my words.
    It's rather amusing how you tell everyone who disagrees with you that they don't "understand" what you are saying. No, we entirely understand what you are saying, and it is internally inconsistent.. I quoted you saying: "The captain will still be balanced". It's not balanced at all. If you are talking about solo play only, then just say so, then we can discard everything you say straight away; no one cares about balance for solo play. You don't need Revealing Mark for it..

    a minstrel should be busy with the tank, not with the group, thank you.
    Apparently, the issue of reading comprehension lies with you, not me. You completely missed the point; one press of a button is the equivalent of a minstrel.

    Also, how come minstrels don't need to heal the DPS again? Oh, right. Revealing Mark. And I know you will respond to this saying "I already said it is OP in groups", but you will say in the very same breath that it is fine, because it's fine for solo play. This makes no sense.


    cuz thats the whole point, you seem to forget that if a captain loses revealing, he wont have much sustainability left. You try to argue with someone who gives 0 fs for the nerfs of revealing on the group. Infact I agree on it, so against what do you try to argue exactly? That revealing is OP for a captain in solo related content? Which I am actually talking about ALL the time? You seem to completely miss my point, you don't seem to understand that a captain needs some form of sustainability to his disposal. Simply buffing the current dmg output of captains will cause the class to go off grid for heavy, this due captain already being capable of achieving 100k+ dps in a raid. A support class with heavy armour should never be able to do 150k+ DPS.
    That is a mischaracterisation of just about everything I said. I have said all along: nerf Revealing Mark, buff active healing. If Rallying Cry heals for a good amount, you really do not need Revealing Mark for any solo content. Rallying Cry + pet heal are more than sufficient. Also, Muster Courage self heal should be buffed.

    Maybe I changed my mind? Maybe I was talking about the class itself and not group related? Some people enjoy using the class for soloplay like me.
    And keep on playing solo as much as you want, just don't act as if it is in any way necessary to have Revealing Mark. You just like the concept of it, and that is your purely subjective reason for wanting to keep it. There is nothing more to it. Ironically, what you describe as an "active playstyle" couldn't be more passive. Literally all of your healing is provided passively through Revealing Mark. So if you truly wanted an active playstyle, you would be in favour of everything I am saying here.

    It's good to see you pop up on the forums whenever I do say something, it says quite a lot x) In any case, there's a greyzone here that you seem to miss out on.

    You did realize that just now? I've been stating that revealing is OP for several months now, but the problem lies with the class itself outside of the whole group point. There needs to be some form of sustainability that can replace it, simply buffing the DPS of a captain to make up for the missing heal is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
    And another mischaraterisation. Is that all you have to offer? From the very start I have said that captain healing needs to be buffed. That would be more than sufficient for any landscape content, or solo content. You don't even need Revealing Mark at the moment, so stop talking nonsense.

    Unfortunately, not everyone is gonna agree, not by a long shot. Revealing needs to be there for the captain to sustain itself, selfheals are not gonna cut it. Keep revealing mark in, but adjust it so that only captains benefit from it. If people still want revealing, you can make scale a second mark on it down to 5%. Like I stated many times, this mechanic alrdy exists with noble.
    And again, you say things like "Revealing Mark is necessary, self heals won't cut it". Total nonsense. Even if self healing were needed, you are just talking nonsense. Revealing Mark is self healing. Yet that self healing does cut it? Like I said, you're just contradicting yourself. Certainly, buffed Rallying Cry/Muster Courage would cut it. MC self healing should be made baseline. That way, it can easily take care of whatever survivability shortcomings a captain has.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
    Also known as Giliodor

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    It's rather amusing how you tell everyone who disagrees with you that they don't "understand" what you are saying. No, we entirely understand what you are saying, and it is internally inconsistent.. I quoted you saying: "The captain will still be balanced". It's not balanced at all. If you are talking about solo play only, then just say so, then we can discard everything you say straight away; no one cares about balance for solo play. You don't need Revealing Mark for it..
    I do care for solo play, the fact you completely want to erase revealing without covering the lack of selfhealing for a captain says enough. On landscape they need it, in 3 man they need it, for the captain its their source of sustainability, for other classes it's a nice "add-up" that has become OP.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    Apparently, the issue of reading comprehension lies with you, not me. You completely missed the point; one press of a button is the equivalent of a minstrel.

    Also, how come minstrels don't need to heal the DPS again? Oh, right. Revealing Mark. And I know you will respond to this saying "I already said it is OP in groups", but you will say in the very same breath that it is fine, because it's fine for solo play. This makes no sense.
    Because for current design, minis are busy with tanks, not the group, you're contradicting yourself here. For current design, revealing is the very reason to make up for it. If you like it or not. Btw do not compare a minstrel to a blue captain, thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    That is a mischaracterisation of just about everything I said. I have said all along: nerf Revealing Mark, buff active healing. If Rallying Cry heals for a good amount, you really do not need Revealing Mark for any solo content. Rallying Cry + pet heal are more than sufficient. Also, Muster Courage self heal should be buffed.
    I agree, though I would like to have a mark able to provide me with more stability, which noble is never gonna be able to make up for. Maybe bring back defensive strike with some adjustments?


    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    And keep on playing solo as much as you want, just don't act as if it is in any way necessary to have Revealing Mark. You just like the concept of it, and that is your purely subjective reason for wanting to keep it. There is nothing more to it. Ironically, what you describe as an "active playstyle" couldn't be more passive. Literally all of your healing is provided passively through Revealing Mark. So if you truly wanted an active playstyle, you would be in favour of everything I am saying here.
    Currently, its made up with passive healing and active, though I like the idea of having more active healing options in expanse of vast amounts of power like the old days. Captain were able to heal a lot before rohan, their selfhealing with high mitigations made them very hard to kill. However, their weakness was essentially power, once they ran out, they completely collapsed, losing all their defence buffs as active healing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    And another mischaraterisation. Is that all you have to offer? From the very start I have said that captain healing needs to be buffed. That would be more than sufficient for any landscape content, or solo content. You don't even need Revealing Mark at the moment, so stop talking nonsense.
    I dont need revealing except in the moors :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    And again, you say things like "Revealing Mark is necessary, self heals won't cut it". Total nonsense. Even if self healing were needed, you are just talking nonsense. Revealing Mark is self healing. Yet that self healing does cut it? Like I said, you're just contradicting yourself. Certainly, buffed Rallying Cry/Muster Courage would cut it. MC self healing should be made baseline. That way, it can easily take care of whatever survivability shortcomings a captain has.
    revealing mark reflects how you put out dmg, which means you'll have gaps in your selfhealing from it. The gaps can be covered by either giving it more defence to stablize it, or cover it up with active healing. Muster courage used to be quite strong around 105. Do you know what happens if you put everything on your dmg output to benefit from revealing? This would mean your build is highly unstable, you'll see your morale pool shift from 20% morale to 60% and back to 30%. It's too unstable and thats why you cover it with active healing or more mitigations. Essentially you're a heavy class, with high mits and active heal I would be fine if mitigations did actually scale properly, which is not the case.
    WhiteGoliath

  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    I do care for solo play, the fact you completely want to erase revealing without covering the lack of selfhealing for a captain says enough. On landscape they need it, in 3 man they need it, for the captain its their source of sustainability, for other classes it's a nice "add-up" that has become OP.
    That is not what anyone is saying at all. We are saying to nerf Revealing Mark, and then buff the Cappy's healing skills to compensate for the loss of healing. So no, nobody wants to "erase revealing without covering the lack of selfhealing for a captain". You are just completely ignoring this point time and time again so that you can have your easymode Revealing Mark that you love so much. Cappies don't need Revealing Mark, solo or otherwise; they need the healing that it provides. If this healing is given by buffing our heal skills, then what is the problem? That it isn't as braindead to accomplish as using Revealing Mark?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    Because for current design, minis are busy with tanks, not the group, you're contradicting yourself here. For current design, revealing is the very reason to make up for it. If you like it or not. Btw do not compare a minstrel to a blue captain, thank you.
    This is why off-healing needs to be brought back. Classes like LM, Burg, and Cappy should be brought into utility in raids as off-healers if you ask me. Again, Revealing Mark is unnecessary if Cappy heals are strong enough to suffice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    I agree, though I would like to have a mark able to provide me with more stability, which noble is never gonna be able to make up for. Maybe bring back defensive strike with some adjustments?
    Noble is going to be able to make up for it. If healing for 1% of your morale every smack isn't enough in addition to whatever healing a Cappy can provide after having heals buffed, then you probably need to work on improving on the class to be honest.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    Currently, its made up with passive healing and active, though I like the idea of having more active healing options in expanse of vast amounts of power like the old days. Captain were able to heal a lot before rohan, their selfhealing with high mitigations made them very hard to kill. However, their weakness was essentially power, once they ran out, they completely collapsed, losing all their defence buffs as active healing.
    And this is exactly what we are suggesting happens. Remove the crutch, and fix the leg; nerf Revealing Mark, and buff active healing skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    I dont need revealing except in the moors :P
    And PvE should not be balanced around PvMP, so this point is irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    revealing mark reflects how you put out dmg, which means you'll have gaps in your selfhealing from it. The gaps can be covered by either giving it more defence to stablize it, or cover it up with active healing. Muster courage used to be quite strong around 105. Do you know what happens if you put everything on your dmg output to benefit from revealing? This would mean your build is highly unstable, you'll see your morale pool shift from 20% morale to 60% and back to 30%. It's too unstable and thats why you cover it with active healing or more mitigations. Essentially you're a heavy class, with high mits and active heal I would be fine if mitigations did actually scale properly, which is not the case.
    A few things. All healing has "gaps" in self healing because nothing is actually a continuous heal. Things tick every 1, 2, 4, etc., seconds typically. What is wrong with a glass cannon DPS being unsustainable? To me that sounds like balance. How do mitigations not scale properly? They work fine on all classes.



    This entire post is just you moving the goalposts over and over until you actually agree with us, but then still deny that Revealing Mark needs to be a nerf. Why? Pride? Over the course of this (and other) thread(s), you went from saying "Revealing is fine" to "Revealing is fine for the Cappy" to "Revealing is broken for the group but fine for the Cappy" to "Revealing is fine because there are no healing alternatives" to "Revealing is fine, but we should still get the healing alternatives". What is the point? Do you not realize that Revealing Mark is too strong to justify buffing active healing skills? Until it gets nerfed, these new options cannot be added to the class, and our actual heals will stay in a perpetual state of disrepair.

  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    That is not what anyone is saying at all. We are saying to nerf Revealing Mark, and then buff the Cappy's healing skills to compensate for the loss of healing. So no, nobody wants to "erase revealing without covering the lack of selfhealing for a captain". You are just completely ignoring this point time and time again so that you can have your easymode Revealing Mark that you love so much. Cappies don't need Revealing Mark, solo or otherwise; they need the healing that it provides. If this healing is given by buffing our heal skills, then what is the problem? That it isn't as braindead to accomplish as using Revealing Mark?



    This is why off-healing needs to be brought back. Classes like LM, Burg, and Cappy should be brought into utility in raids as off-healers if you ask me. Again, Revealing Mark is unnecessary if Cappy heals are strong enough to suffice.



    Noble is going to be able to make up for it. If healing for 1% of your morale every smack isn't enough in addition to whatever healing a Cappy can provide after having heals buffed, then you probably need to work on improving on the class to be honest.




    And this is exactly what we are suggesting happens. Remove the crutch, and fix the leg; nerf Revealing Mark, and buff active healing skills.



    And PvE should not be balanced around PvMP, so this point is irrelevant.



    A few things. All healing has "gaps" in self healing because nothing is actually a continuous heal. Things tick every 1, 2, 4, etc., seconds typically. What is wrong with a glass cannon DPS being unsustainable? To me that sounds like balance. How do mitigations not scale properly? They work fine on all classes.



    This entire post is just you moving the goalposts over and over until you actually agree with us, but then still deny that Revealing Mark needs to be a nerf. Why? Pride? Over the course of this (and other) thread(s), you went from saying "Revealing is fine" to "Revealing is fine for the Cappy" to "Revealing is broken for the group but fine for the Cappy" to "Revealing is fine because there are no healing alternatives" to "Revealing is fine, but we should still get the healing alternatives". What is the point? Do you not realize that Revealing Mark is too strong to justify buffing active healing skills? Until it gets nerfed, these new options cannot be added to the class, and our actual heals will stay in a perpetual state of disrepair.
    I'll react tomorrow, but its good to see u dont get my points at all

    adjusting revealing brings many issues with itself and thats why I say so many different things, also for the fact that I think about it aswell. but I never went away from my point that revealing is fine regarding the captain, just put down with more clarity.

    Its fun u suggest noble, the most utterly useless mark out of those 3, it seems it doesnt get through you that if u want to take more adv of it, u need to stack more morale. Stacking more morale to gain more healing from noble means you'll lose out on dps. Losing out on dps means you gonna struggle vs other opponents healing like reavers in pvmp situations(in pve fight u can enjoy 10min fight with trash mobs), no sir, I think you're the wrong who is mistaken here. Btw, if revealing was that braindead, why has nobody been using these types of builds in the past around 105? 90% of the captains were buffered brawlers, some of them had semi-selfhealing builds like mine, but none pushed further to actually take proper advantage of what revealing + selfheals had to offer.

    To have the guts to say someone needs to learn his class better by using noble is so contradictory. You do not seem to realize that as red captain, you wanna be as efficient as possible in pvmp, if u dont go with revealing, u go with telling. Noble is a big joke, it asks for tons of space in ur build with very little pay-off and proper performance. Yes it will be working if u want to tank and stand there fighting trash mobs for 15min long while u could have gone blue and fought them with active healing & dmg focust stats.

    anyway I'll react tomorrow x)
    Last edited by Zaheer; Apr 25 2019 at 08:51 PM.
    WhiteGoliath

 

 
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