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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narthalion View Post
    Perhaps. But please try and remember that just because another customer doesn't agree with you...or doesn't enjoy the same style of play that you do...it doesn't necessarily mean that they are "stubbornly ignorant".
    Well our CM chooses to not expose himself to crafting professions. We have had our issues with crafting for some time, years. Now if our CM has no appreciation of the importance or otherwise of our concerns then we might think that there might be a problem in passing this information along. Can he judge the importance and indicate a priority to the issue if he can't experience it for himself?

    We also see things getting a "fix" when he himself struggles with things he finds along the way. For example his and other's inability to select the "Heats" around the Party Tree during the anniversary. There were several options for selecting them but he and others didn't even try these alternatives or just ask for help in chat. So we had a fix come in just after the end of the festival to change the Heats that only got an airing 10 months later which had them aggro on low levels afk around the party tree for the first time and open season for any in the area to grief questers.

    Taking it further I ask if you if you are up to date on stat tomes with them up to rank 17 or 18 in main stats? Are your selected virtues capped and specifically chosen for the mobs you face? Have you any capped characters who have the full 91 trait points? Do you change legacies after a character balance pass if an old choice looses effectiveness against another. Do you check skill tooltips and test out skill priority in order to get debuffs applied first to optimise later skill damage? Do you take a combat log of encounters that you can't beat in order to help formulate a different strategy for success? Do you check mob buffs and corruptions and take appropriate actions? Are your LIs tuned for each of the trait build you run with? Do you craft and have in your pack the best of consumables to further increase you effectiveness. Do you strive to get the best of gear available to your content play choices?

    Perhaps you don't so much. But there will be those that do and are not happy with the suggestion to go naked to provide a challenge because other players choose to ignore these mechanics.

    Striving for mediocrity? Really?


    Leaving SSG to cater for both extremes and because they promote the game to one type of player who gladly pays and attempt to squeeze every dime out of the other we have the problems we do.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maclorien View Post
    Leaving SSG to cater for both extremes and because they promote the game to one type of player who gladly pays and attempt to squeeze every dime out of the other we have the problems we do.
    Boom.

    Give Anor and Ithil PvMP.
    Before making a complaint here, ask yourself this: "Am I still giving SSG money?". If the answer is yes, there's no point complaining.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arabani View Post
    Yes, I ment those who aggressively advocate for removing, or reducing the amount of, group content.
    That's not something seen very often. In fact, I've only ever seen forum posters agree with Turbine when Turbine said there would be no more raids. Those forum users didn't ask for that, it's just something that the game developers decided, and some (not that many) agreed with it, because it was put over as a waste of resources for a very small percentage of players.

    Now, what I do see, and often, is asks for the removal of these . . . .

    Festival encores
    Mounted combat
    Epic Battles

    and a near constant stream of asks for . . .

    Landscape to play more like group content

    I always find that solo and more casual players are quite happy to ignore whatever group content is in the game and make no mention of getting rid of it. They may often promote their own play style gets covered, but not at the cost of removal of group play.

    I don't always find that works as a two way street however.

    I enjoy all kinds of content, so plenty of everything would be my choice, even if I don't have time to play some of it. I don't often have time for raiding, but that doesn't mean I don't want them in the game. I don't always have time for festival encores either, but again, I think they should be here for those that enjoy them.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maclorien View Post
    Well our CM chooses to not expose himself to crafting professions. We have had our issues with crafting for some time, years. Now if our CM has no appreciation of the importance or otherwise of our concerns then we might think that there might be a problem in passing this information along. Can he judge the importance and indicate a priority to the issue if he can't experience it for himself?

    We also see things getting a "fix" when he himself struggles with things he finds along the way. For example his and other's inability to select the "Heats" around the Party Tree during the anniversary. There were several options for selecting them but he and others didn't even try these alternatives or just ask for help in chat. So we had a fix come in just after the end of the festival to change the Heats that only got an airing 10 months later which had them aggro on low levels afk around the party tree for the first time and open season for any in the area to grief questers.

    Taking it further I ask if you if you are up to date on stat tomes with them up to rank 17 or 18 in main stats? Are your selected virtues capped and specifically chosen for the mobs you face? Have you any capped characters who have the full 91 trait points? Do you change legacies after a character balance pass if an old choice looses effectiveness against another. Do you check skill tooltips and test out skill priority in order to get debuffs applied first to optimise later skill damage? Do you take a combat log of encounters that you can't beat in order to help formulate a different strategy for success? Do you check mob buffs and corruptions and take appropriate actions? Are your LIs tuned for each of the trait build you run with? Do you craft and have in your pack the best of consumables to further increase you effectiveness. Do you strive to get the best of gear available to your content play choices?

    Perhaps you don't so much. But there will be those that do and are not happy with the suggestion to go naked to provide a challenge because other players choose to ignore these mechanics.

    Striving for mediocrity? Really?


    Leaving SSG to cater for both extremes and because they promote the game to one type of player who gladly pays and attempt to squeeze every dime out of the other we have the problems we do.
    I have to disagree with quite a bit of your post unfortunately. I have a lot of reasons to be peed off with the game at the moment, there is a lot going on that I do not like, but fair is fair, and honest is honest, and that's important. So, with that said . . .

    In my experience with Cord, he's open to taking on board the info that he may not have experienced in his own play yet. The forums are huge, and full of noise, so if you think it's something really important that they must be aware of, pop a message over to him (or any of the devs). They don't bite, and they will thank you for it.

    Heatwaves at the party tree was brought up by players. I remember reading it. Maybe you missed it.

    I have alts that are all shinied up to the hilt, and I have alts in mediocre gear that are weaklings in comparison. I will often group up for tougher stuff on those alts, or park them til a later date if that's not possible. Sure, my more shiny characters can sometimes find stuff a bit easy, but so what? That's what the gear does and what it's supposed to do. They weren't so god-like before they got it. That's what makes them the candidates, out of my little army, to take into the harder stuff. Others that are in my army, will never go there.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Maclorien View Post
    Taking it further I ask if you if you are up to date on stat tomes with them up to rank 17 or 18 in main stats? Are your selected virtues capped and specifically chosen for the mobs you face? Have you any capped characters who have the full 91 trait points? Do you change legacies after a character balance pass if an old choice looses effectiveness against another. Do you check skill tooltips and test out skill priority in order to get debuffs applied first to optimise later skill damage? Do you take a combat log of encounters that you can't beat in order to help formulate a different strategy for success? Do you check mob buffs and corruptions and take appropriate actions? Are your LIs tuned for each of the trait build you run with? Do you craft and have in your pack the best of consumables to further increase you effectiveness. Do you strive to get the best of gear available to your content play choices?

    Perhaps you don't so much. But there will be those that do and are not happy with the suggestion to go naked to provide a challenge because other players choose to ignore these mechanics.

    Striving for mediocrity? Really?

    Based on the rest of your post, I'm not sure if you're addressing this to me...or to the CM. But, assuming you're asking me, I'll attempt a response.

    The short answer to your paragraph of questions is, "No", I do not do all the things in that list. Some of them? Sure. But not all. And obviously if YOU do (and put in all the time complete them) I suspect you are going to be VERY frustrated with a game that seems to minimize your accomplishments and intensity.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narthalion View Post
    Based on the rest of your post, I'm not sure if you're addressing this to me...or to the CM. But, assuming you're asking me, I'll attempt a response.

    The short answer to your paragraph of questions is, "No", I do not do all the things in that list. Some of them? Sure. But not all. And obviously if YOU do (and put in all the time complete them) I suspect you are going to be VERY frustrated with a game that seems to minimize your accomplishments and intensity.
    It's not frustrating in the slightest. I do all those things on two characters, and when they are done, they have long finished all the easier stuff, earned all the rewards and are ready for harder content. That's the whole concept of it, and it's working as intended as far as I'm concerned. I still have plenty of weaklings to take out onto landscape who will have a much harder time of things. Nothing frustrating there.

    Players that get frustrated with landscape are usually players that run solo landscape content in a group. I've done that, and it is positively boring, as it should be - it's solo by design. Duo is fine, but when you start running the land 3, 6 or 12 deep (and players do actually do that), then yes, all sight of challenge or even the notion of it, disappears. I therefore advocate for more optional fellowship areas on landscape, so that those players can have some amusement that they enjoy, but not at the cost of what solo landscape players find engaging and enjoyable. There's enough room for both.
    Last edited by Arnenna; Mar 01 2019 at 02:06 PM.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echoweaver View Post
    When you start advocating for our play style as often are you're outraged about the way yours is treated, perhaps this statement will make sense.

    How much concern do you have for solo players? Small group players? casual players? Folks who want the whole game to be as fun as endgame?

    I want endgamers to have fun. They are, as a group, the loudest and nastiest faction on the forums, and the one least interested in supporting multiple play styles. So if you think the rest of us don't express a lot of concern about endgamers, there might be a reason.

    Since Helm's Deep I've been a small group and solo player. For the last two years completely solo. I wont class myself as casual. Used to do cap level kin raids up to Tower of Orthanc including T2C.

    The thing about people who play to advance their character to the best of their ability is that they noticed things that don't work in the game. If a skill says it does something and a bit of testing proves the case then they might vocalise that in a /bug report or on the forums. If nothing is done to remedy the issue it could be that not enough other people bothered to report it and it was assumed not to be worth the effort to fix. Doesn't make me so happy. The even more advanced player will notice things that I don't see but because they come to these forums to expose the problem I can take it on board and either make adjustments to my play for a workaround and/or corroborate their findings, maybe add my own /bug report.

    It does get frustrating when our /bug reports seem to be ignored or not thought sufficiently worthy of a fix. Ostensibly this is likely because the people processing our reports may not appreciate where we are coming from especially if they would class their own game play to be inline with your own play style. This bares out when fixes are made that breaks or ignores something else.


    Given that these players see much more of what's not working as intended it can be quite a let down when other players keep massaging the SSG ego with plaudits all for the want of passing a more critical eye over the game. This certainly annoys me, opinions given without prior investigation. Choosing not to explore the finer mechanics yet having an opinion anyway.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narthalion View Post
    Based on the rest of your post, I'm not sure if you're addressing this to me...or to the CM. But, assuming you're asking me, I'll attempt a response.

    The short answer to your paragraph of questions is, "No", I do not do all the things in that list. Some of them? Sure. But not all. And obviously if YOU do (and put in all the time complete them) I suspect you are going to be VERY frustrated with a game that seems to minimize your accomplishments and intensity.
    Not even I do them all these days but I once did because I used to raid long ago so it's ingrained, before the grinds got too much for me. I'm retired so have the time just not the budget and seems we need both these days to play effectively or we have to play a shadow of the game we knew.

    I can't bring the calibre of the top players down, trepanning isn't my speciality, so would hope to raise the other extreme to be closer so that we can balance the content and make us all happier. However SSG doesn't see the consequences of their actions that widen the rift between us at every micro release. It's getting like the devs are grabbing a few minutes to put out the fires that e-commerce are igniting and then fanning.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    I have to disagree with quite a bit of your post unfortunately. I have a lot of reasons to be peed off with the game at the moment, there is a lot going on that I do not like, but fair is fair, and honest is honest, and that's important. So, with that said . . .

    In my experience with Cord, he's open to taking on board the info that he may not have experienced in his own play yet. The forums are huge, and full of noise, so if you think it's something really important that they must be aware of, pop a message over to him (or any of the devs). They don't bite, and they will thank you for it.

    Heatwaves at the party tree was brought up by players. I remember reading it. Maybe you missed it.

    I have alts that are all shinied up to the hilt, and I have alts in mediocre gear that are weaklings in comparison. I will often group up for tougher stuff on those alts, or park them til a later date if that's not possible. Sure, my more shiny characters can sometimes find stuff a bit easy, but so what? That's what the gear does and what it's supposed to do. They weren't so god-like before they got it. That's what makes them the candidates, out of my little army, to take into the harder stuff. Others that are in my army, will never go there.
    In my limited experience of PMs they didn't bite at all, nada. Maybe there's some favouritism. Yes Heatwaves: I was watching the stream live, I piped in with a couple of alternative ways to select them. But all of a sudden it was an issue that needed to be fixed. That was a priority?

    Remember that Orb on the border with Orthanc during the anniversary, same deal with peeps queuing up and can't figure out what to do and can't mess up their view to switch on nameplates for a second and click on it. I got tired of explaining as each of my characters arrived there to find another queue. Consequences, choose not clutter your UI then face forever getting aggro from unseen mobs you pass by every day. Don't have mobs morale and power bars showing then you face the consequences of breaking a critical daze in the confusion. Tbh had a mate who refused to ever play with nameplates on and I just got tired of him aggroing stuff unnecessarily or mezzing the wrong mob over the years.

    Yeah got my mains geared up, what used to be alt mains parked up now and craft alts all parked up. If I was to take my alt mains ungeared and sub par performance playing them in a group somewhere I'd feel I was being carried so wouldn't do that. I wouldn't care so much getting caught in the reverse either. The grind being ever longer I can't waste so much time. I don't want my challenge to be getting through some tough content because of an obvious deficiency within the group but we overcome by all bringing our A game and A game mean gear, skill and LIs etc.

  10. #60
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    From a more casual side of things, I don't really worry about my performance in groups because I know its a game, but I know how to fill in the roles of each class reasonably well (coming from someone who has toons for each class). The people I group with are either my actual friends/kinship or just randoms Ill never see again, so I dont stress as much.

    In general though, I wouldn't want to group up every day as I wouldn't want to solo every day.
    linis

  11. #61
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    While the thread is diverging into sub-conversations, I'm gonna refer back to the early posts on page 1 and say I can sympathize with most of those opinions/admissions.

    I enjoy most days of /World chat, whether it's debating a game mechanic or bantering about bacon.

    I avoid large groups for moist of the reasons already covered.

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  12. #62
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Arabani View Post
    Yes, I ment those who aggressively advocate for removing, or reducing the amount of, group content.
    That's not something seen very often. In fact, I've only ever seen forum posters agree with Turbine when Turbine said there would be no more raids. Those forum users didn't ask for that, it's just something that the game developers decided, and some (not that many) agreed with it, because it was put over as a waste of resources for a very small percentage of players.

    Now, what I do see, and often, is asks for the removal of these . . . .

    Festival encores
    Mounted combat
    Epic Battles

    and a near constant stream of asks for . . .

    Landscape to play more like group content

    I always find that solo and more casual players are quite happy to ignore whatever group content is in the game and make no mention of getting rid of it. They may often promote their own play style gets covered, but not at the cost of removal of group play.

    I don't always find that works as a two way street however.

    I enjoy all kinds of content, so plenty of everything would be my choice, even if I don't have time to play some of it. I don't often have time for raiding, but that doesn't mean I don't want them in the game. I don't always have time for festival encores either, but again, I think they should be here for those that enjoy them.
    Spot On !!!

    I have never seen anyone aggressively advocate for removing all group content. I have seen some ask for having a choice and not force solo nor group, but make it optional, but never to remove group content and replace it with only solo, or even simply remove it all together. It is possible that I have missed such posts, as I have not read every single thread in these forums. Maybe Arabani can link us to some such posts ??? It would be intesresting to read how anyone requesting or demanding to remove all group content from an MMO would motivate it and argue for that. Not just one person, but obviosuly it has been quite a few. I have totally missed that I must admit.

    What I have seen are the more solo oriented players acctually being upset when some parts of the books have been forced solo instances, wanting them to become availble to group up and help each other in, not the other way around.
    Last edited by Lord.Funk; Mar 01 2019 at 11:11 PM.

  13. #63
    I’d actually say that I think solo content has been one of the biggest strengths with the Ered Mithrin content. The new resource instances and solo options for the instances has catered heavily to the solo player, excepting the actual raid itself. The raid gets more and more bugged with each successive week anyways though as they keep trying to patch other bugs and exploits.

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    That's not something seen very often. In fact, I've only ever seen forum posters agree with Turbine when Turbine said there would be no more raids. Those forum users didn't ask for that, it's just something that the game developers decided, and some (not that many) agreed with it, because it was put over as a waste of resources for a very small percentage of players.

    Now, what I do see, and often, is asks for the removal of these . . . .

    Festival encores
    Mounted combat
    Epic Battles

    and a near constant stream of asks for . . .

    Landscape to play more like group content

    I always find that solo and more casual players are quite happy to ignore whatever group content is in the game and make no mention of getting rid of it. They may often promote their own play style gets covered, but not at the cost of removal of group play.

    I don't always find that works as a two way street however.

    I enjoy all kinds of content, so plenty of everything would be my choice, even if I don't have time to play some of it. I don't often have time for raiding, but that doesn't mean I don't want them in the game. I don't always have time for festival encores either, but again, I think they should be here for those that enjoy them.
    Not sure what a "near constant stream" of turning landscape into group content looks like - but there is definitely a common theme to posts from many who like to advocate solo play - they rarely miss a chance to throw a disparaging generalized comment at anyone who likes or advocates for group play. Usually backed up by a "of course, if only everyone had a near perfect attitude to the game like me" comment to round things off.

  15. #65
    There is a major flaw in the reasoning of many who claim no one has been asking for the removal of group content - if you have internalised the belief that landscape by definition is solo content (and many posters have done this) then you will fail to understand that all the calls over the years to reduce landscape difficulty = the demand to remove group content.

    This isn't just in reference to actual fellowship landscape content - which did have its issues (mainly solo chains ending in fellowship quests) but the overall challenge of solo-able landscape in SoA meant it was also playable in small groups. Group content was potentially everywhere. Now, landscape has been so badly neutered, grouping can even be a liability.

  16. #66
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    I posed this question a couple of days ago and have been educated a bit by the responses. And a bit surprised with the quantity of responses.

    The feedback upthread sort of supports my suspicion that most of us are solo-players most of the time.

    Lately, I have been enjoying the grouping in our new kin on Anor (legendary server).
    Victory's Secret is a bunch of us that have decided to experiment playing Lotro-without-gear. That is, no armor or jewelery. (And yes, Echo...we had a good time taking out Drukordh. That was fun!)

    So, we have to play the game in different ways than what we have become accustomed to.
    And since we are all new at this kind of game play, we are all experimenting with new approaches to Virtues, and Weapons and consumables and tactics.

    And it makes most of the old, easy group quests much more difficult.

    There is no issue (from me) with the low level group quests being easy. They should be easy. That's the way that new players learn to play and the experience should be a bit tricky, but not too tough because new people need to feel like they can succeed or they won't continue playing.

    But, playing "naked" (as we say in The Secret) results in these relatively "easy" group quests changing into "not-so-easy" quests.

    Now, back to the subject... I generally don't like to group (as noted in the OP) but I have been enjoying grouping in our new kin.

    What makes it different?

    I think because we are all (as "naked" players) inexperienced with these quests. In regular, "clothed" play there is not much chance that you will get one-shotted in any low-level quest. But playing naked, in a group quest on-level, you have a significant chance of getting nailed like that if you try to solo or duo it.

    So, you sort of "need" a group to be able to complete these quests on-level, and even slightly below level. And grouping with the strange folks we have attracted (I mean "strange" in only the best of senses) has been anything but stressful. It has been fun!

    I remember grouping up many years ago, when the game was new, and having fun, similar to what we have been having in The Secret.

    A theory (which a few folks hinted at upthread): When grouping incentive is dominated by "farming" desires, then communication and general comradery is affected.
    It's more fun to group with folks that are also trying to learn the ins-and-outs of the quest and not-so-much with folks that know how to succeed by rote.

    Naked Adventuring: It's not how good your gear is, it's how to have fun.
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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    I’d actually say that I think solo content has been one of the biggest strengths with the Ered Mithrin content. The new resource instances and solo options for the instances has catered heavily to the solo player, excepting the actual raid itself. The raid gets more and more bugged with each successive week anyways though as they keep trying to patch other bugs and exploits.
    Ered Mithrin has a lot of solo one off play content, and after that, the four resource instances that can be done daily. It also has 4 instances that can be run daily and a raid, for groups. That's pretty even IMO. We have of course had content that has been heavily weighted towards solo players in the past. West Gondor was such content. Sure, it had a great fellowship area that was great fun, but most of the rewards were in the solo daily instances. That's what I call, unbalanced. There have been areas weighted toward group content also.

    Great River got the balance perfect IMO. Plenty of quests, a fellowship area, and a very nice 6 man to round it off, but also daily repeatables for those that prefer not to group to upgrade their gear a bit (though not as far as doing the instance could). Perfect.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by forumna View Post
    Not sure what a "near constant stream" of turning landscape into group content looks like - but there is definitely a common theme to posts from many who like to advocate solo play - they rarely miss a chance to throw a disparaging generalized comment at anyone who likes or advocates for group play. Usually backed up by a "of course, if only everyone had a near perfect attitude to the game like me" comment to round things off.
    I'll always advocate for both (and always have), because I enjoy playing both. If you read something into that, that's not there, then good for you. When the game is offering plenty for everyone, it's working well.

    Near constant stream relates to the most recent postings on the forums, not in general. Mainly since Mordor and since Festival encores became a thing, and then, not a thing anymore, based on players not wanting them. Many players do, and that can plainly be seen by reading one thread.

    If it suits you more, I could retract the "near constant stream" reference and change it to "now and again requests" and it would still equate to being more often that I've seen anyone ask for the removal of group content.
    Last edited by Arnenna; Mar 02 2019 at 06:32 AM.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bohemond71 View Post
    There is a major flaw in the reasoning of many who claim no one has been asking for the removal of group content - if you have internalised the belief that landscape by definition is solo content (and many posters have done this) then you will fail to understand that all the calls over the years to reduce landscape difficulty = the demand to remove group content.

    This isn't just in reference to actual fellowship landscape content - which did have its issues (mainly solo chains ending in fellowship quests) but the overall challenge of solo-able landscape in SoA meant it was also playable in small groups. Group content was potentially everywhere. Now, landscape has been so badly neutered, grouping can even be a liability.
    This is where the validation enters the fold. You raise a very good point. Some solo landscape content is very easy, even to the less geared, but there are players that enjoy that, so hey, let's not remove it, but instead, ask for other content to compliment it. Ideally, landscape could consist of solo easy (general questing), solo difficult (out of the way explorer type quests, auto-bestow on discovery and are fun to find), small fellowship (specific camps or small areas), fellowship (specific camps or small areas) and raid (encounters) content.

    Something for everyone = better than removal of anything
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.

  20. #70
    What is able to be solod, or meant to be solod (the entire landscape), is so easily solod that you could halve your character's power and get through it all. Don't believe me? Look up naked-leveling groups.

    What is meant to be tackled with a group often requires that group put in effort and time in order to beat it.

    For this reason I can't stand anything but the group content, as its the only content that feels like a game, and not a semi-passive, barely interactive storytelling experience. I am not used to games which don't pose the possibility of the player losing-- that's never been my concept of a "game", and its why 95% of lotro (the landscape) is a heaping pile of garbage that has to be waded through to get to anything resembling gameplay.

    I am not a hardcore player. I come from games like Scrabble and Chess, which test me more than Middle Earth does...These little games formed my concept of a game, and for awhile, PC and console games (in the late 90's and early 2000's) were still respective of the "win or lose" dynamic or "risk vs reward".

    MOST games are still this way, which is why LOTRO is a ghost-town, and the biggest games in the world right now are incredibly challenging and competitive-- a fact that always causes me to laugh when the casual solo questers speak as if their challenge-averse temperament is the standard, and as if we who want challenge are blacksheep. They shouldn't be controlling the narrative in this game as they do.

    No risk, No loss.... this isn't a game as much as it is a story book.
    Last edited by BadJuju; Mar 02 2019 at 07:56 AM.

  21. #71
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Wales, United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,633
    Quote Originally Posted by BadJuju View Post
    What is able to be solod, or meant to be solod (the entire landscape), is so easily solod that you could halve your character's power and get through it all. Don't believe me? Look up naked-leveling groups.

    What is meant to be tackled with a group often requires that group put in effort and time in order to beat it.

    For this reason I can't stand anything but the group content, as its the only content that feels like a game, and not a semi-passive, barely interactive storytelling experience. I am not used to games which don't pose the possibility if the player losing-- that's never been my concept of a "game", and its why 95% of lotro (the landscape) is a heaping pile of garbage that has to be waded through to get to anything resembling gameplay.

    I am not a hardcore player. I come from games like Scrabble and Chess, which test me more than Middle Earth does...These little games formed my concept of a game, and for awhile, PC and console games (in the late 90's and early 2000's) were still respective of the "win or lose" dynamic or "risk vs reward".

    MOST games are still this way. Which is why LOTRO is a ghost-town, and the biggest games in the world right now are incredibly challenging and competitive-- a fact that always causes me to laugh when the casual solo questers speak as if their challenge-averse temperament is the standard, and as if we who want challenge are blacksheep. They shouldn't be controlling the narrative in this game as they do.

    No risk, No loss.... this isn't a game as much as it is a story book.
    The day that LOTRO, or any game for that matter, becomes more of a test than chess, something is severely broken. How good (or poor) a game of chess is depends on your opponent. That's not something LOTRO depends on (success of group content can depend on your team but the overall game doesn't depend on anyone else). Chess, should test you more than LOTRO - always.

    Again with the casual solo questing types labelling people that like challenge as black sheep! That's simply not true. They enjoy what they enjoy, and keep away from the challenging stuff that others like - without much thought of it. They don't narrate anything (and stating so is attaching that label you're talking about) - SSG do, based on their data of what player preferences they perceive from that data.

    If the whole of the game becomes beyond the difficulty they enjoy - they leave. If the whole of the game becomes too easy for what you enjoy - you leave. Catch 22. It has to have both to keep all happy.

    If everyone is happily playing harder content, harder content will endure, no matter how much people on the forums make a fuss about it. It's when people start skipping it or bypassing it in game that the data starts to show. Remember, the majority is silent and we do not see them here. They probably consist of a mix of both play types, but SSG determine what the ratio is, and they will act accordingly because they want as many people playing their game as possible.

    Content is like lootboxes. Stating how much you hate them on the forum can look really hot and important, but if they are being used in game then it amounts to nothing. The in game data determines whether they stay or not and whether they are a success.

    The game often makes people like yourself run through content you do not like, in order to get to what you do like, but it hasn't always worked like that. The game also has had times where solo casual players have run through the content they enjoy, only to find nothing to do at the end of it.

    I guess I'm pretty lucky, as I enjoy all of it. I like the story telling of what you find mundane - hence, I play it. I create my own challenge if I want it, but not by removing gear. I over-pull and try to get out of the mess I created - sometimes successfully and sometimes not so. I also really enjoy going into the harder stuff when I can. I don't group as often now as I did at 85 cap, as I find the group content created since then to be a little bit same as same as, but I still go for it when I can commit the time.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.

  22. #72
    I don't enjoy targeted large group play. By that I mean the instances, generally raids but also have had bad experiences in smaller fellowships. I've had too many bad experiences with "leet" players in games to want to get into that mess. You don't have the right equipment! You weren't were you were I wanted you to be but never told you to be! You aren't DPSing fast enough! Forget the fact I died to pull aggro off the healer that the off-tank lost before we all died. Forget the fact that I'm kiting the adds to give the healer's time to rez people, at direction of the raid leader. Forget the fact I'm trying my hardest in a new playstyle because by the time I joined this game, everyone was sitting at level 50 and no one wanted to run lower level content where you usually learn such things.

    Solo and duo play is very different from the group role, as has been mentioned earlier in this thread. I'd rather be the laughable "hunter tank" to my RK partner than the DPS pew-pew machine the bigger group wants me to be. We get by well enough. Like others in this thread have mentioned - when we level up enough we go back and do the group content. I won't soon forget getting into an T1 Anvil raid - I only wanted to complete it for the goat - and watching as three people in the group ripped apart my RK partner's build because it wasn't class standard. They didn't bother to tell him why they felt it was wrong, how it could be improved, and didn't even bother to reply to his repeated requests to join the raid, which had plenty of room at that point. I was left thinking of the group leaders as bleep-holes and was glad when I finally finished it that I'd never have to do Anvil again if that was the type of folks that ran the instance routinely. I had similar encounters in the summer instance for Thrang, where people were rage quitting after the group didn't kill the boss in the first attempt and generally the groups fell apart before we killed Thrang. Because of that experience, I didn't even try to group for the winter seasonal instance with the giants.

    There are times I've wanted to learn how to be a proper DPS in raids but I join groups and it's like a job. I'm here to relax from a stressful job - not to incur the wrath of someone who feels I should be better than I can be with no one to teach me how. Certainly I'm not here to watch people I don't know denigrate people I do know. I've never understood the people that only rip others down. Why not teach the ones you can to lift them up? With that attitude I saw - no wonder the raids aren't getting a lot of advertisement on my server. If you don't replace the raiders you've lost to other games by teaching the people that might raid, if you instead shred them to boost your own ego, it pretty much eventually guarantees the extinction of the playstyle over a long enough time. Certainly the desire to group up larger than my duo has been pretty much extinguished in me.

    Now compare and contrast that to the landscape raids for warbands. Those have been incredibly fun for the most part. I even lead a bunch for a time when we were in one of the Gondor regions. I learned how from another player (Thanks!). We all got our warband slayer deed done together and it was fun. If we wiped, we wiped, and we learned, and we moved on. People did help one another understand what was needed and why. No one was expected to know how the fight went ahead of time, and people could drop in and out as life required them to do so. Now for fun at times I duo'd warbands with my RK partner, but I'd join those groups without hesitation. The attitudes and the expectations were different. People were more forgiving. When we hit Mordor, there was a player that routinely organized landscape raids. She was extremely organized and every night, she'd give the same commands without fail because there were always new folks in the group. If we killed them too fast, we just waited for the respawn and did it again. Again, a good leader, clear instructions, and patience while people learned. It's a night and day difference between these raids, which amount to giant zergs, to what I experienced previously in the instances in this and other games.

    In the middle ground has been the landscape fellowship quests. I can't help but notice that they keep getting nerfed by the devs. In the wastes we had an area that got nerfed because of farming. In Mordor we had all the teal drops removed because of farming. I don't see the point of creating landscape fellowship content if three months after it arrives, it gets nerfed because of farming when people form a raid to do it. Don't get me wrong, it was fun when you could get a group together and run it - but after it gets nerfed, no one really wants to run it. If I recall correctly, the wastes fellowship quests I only got done after the nerf because the warband was in the area, and a bunch of us decided to roll through and finish them from the warband raid.

    I'm not advocating for the removal of any playstyle. Everyone should be able to have fun. I can even see that a good player development opportunity would be to go from the loose landscape raids to the more organized instance raids. Unfortunately, I've been burned enough times in this and in other games, it hasn't worked that well for me. I'd rather putz along with my RK partner than deal with the drama I've experienced in the instances. But if you are willing to run landscape raids, just give me a sec to grab my bow....

  23. #73
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Wales, United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,633
    Quote Originally Posted by Raesharra View Post
    I don't enjoy targeted large group play. By that I mean the instances, generally raids but also have had bad experiences in smaller fellowships. I've had too many bad experiences with "leet" players in games to want to get into that mess. You don't have the right equipment! You weren't were you were I wanted you to be but never told you to be! You aren't DPSing fast enough! Forget the fact I died to pull aggro off the healer that the off-tank lost before we all died. Forget the fact that I'm kiting the adds to give the healer's time to rez people, at direction of the raid leader. Forget the fact I'm trying my hardest in a new playstyle because by the time I joined this game, everyone was sitting at level 50 and no one wanted to run lower level content where you usually learn such things.

    Solo and duo play is very different from the group role, as has been mentioned earlier in this thread. I'd rather be the laughable "hunter tank" to my RK partner than the DPS pew-pew machine the bigger group wants me to be. We get by well enough. Like others in this thread have mentioned - when we level up enough we go back and do the group content. I won't soon forget getting into an T1 Anvil raid - I only wanted to complete it for the goat - and watching as three people in the group ripped apart my RK partner's build because it wasn't class standard. They didn't bother to tell him why they felt it was wrong, how it could be improved, and didn't even bother to reply to his repeated requests to join the raid, which had plenty of room at that point. I was left thinking of the group leaders as bleep-holes and was glad when I finally finished it that I'd never have to do Anvil again if that was the type of folks that ran the instance routinely. I had similar encounters in the summer instance for Thrang, where people were rage quitting after the group didn't kill the boss in the first attempt and generally the groups fell apart before we killed Thrang. Because of that experience, I didn't even try to group for the winter seasonal instance with the giants.

    There are times I've wanted to learn how to be a proper DPS in raids but I join groups and it's like a job. I'm here to relax from a stressful job - not to incur the wrath of someone who feels I should be better than I can be with no one to teach me how. Certainly I'm not here to watch people I don't know denigrate people I do know. I've never understood the people that only rip others down. Why not teach the ones you can to lift them up? With that attitude I saw - no wonder the raids aren't getting a lot of advertisement on my server. If you don't replace the raiders you've lost to other games by teaching the people that might raid, if you instead shred them to boost your own ego, it pretty much eventually guarantees the extinction of the playstyle over a long enough time. Certainly the desire to group up larger than my duo has been pretty much extinguished in me.

    Now compare and contrast that to the landscape raids for warbands. Those have been incredibly fun for the most part. I even lead a bunch for a time when we were in one of the Gondor regions. I learned how from another player (Thanks!). We all got our warband slayer deed done together and it was fun. If we wiped, we wiped, and we learned, and we moved on. People did help one another understand what was needed and why. No one was expected to know how the fight went ahead of time, and people could drop in and out as life required them to do so. Now for fun at times I duo'd warbands with my RK partner, but I'd join those groups without hesitation. The attitudes and the expectations were different. People were more forgiving. When we hit Mordor, there was a player that routinely organized landscape raids. She was extremely organized and every night, she'd give the same commands without fail because there were always new folks in the group. If we killed them too fast, we just waited for the respawn and did it again. Again, a good leader, clear instructions, and patience while people learned. It's a night and day difference between these raids, which amount to giant zergs, to what I experienced previously in the instances in this and other games.

    In the middle ground has been the landscape fellowship quests. I can't help but notice that they keep getting nerfed by the devs. In the wastes we had an area that got nerfed because of farming. In Mordor we had all the teal drops removed because of farming. I don't see the point of creating landscape fellowship content if three months after it arrives, it gets nerfed because of farming when people form a raid to do it. Don't get me wrong, it was fun when you could get a group together and run it - but after it gets nerfed, no one really wants to run it. If I recall correctly, the wastes fellowship quests I only got done after the nerf because the warband was in the area, and a bunch of us decided to roll through and finish them from the warband raid.

    I'm not advocating for the removal of any playstyle. Everyone should be able to have fun. I can even see that a good player development opportunity would be to go from the loose landscape raids to the more organized instance raids. Unfortunately, I've been burned enough times in this and in other games, it hasn't worked that well for me. I'd rather putz along with my RK partner than deal with the drama I've experienced in the instances. But if you are willing to run landscape raids, just give me a sec to grab my bow....
    I know a lot of players that don't group for all the reasons you have listed. I've been in groups where that kind of thing goes on, to the point, I've tabbed out of the chat tab and tried to ignore it, only to then see leaders kick people on a whim. On those occasions I stay til the final boss then drop out mid fight. Then comes the question, "where did you go", to which the answer is always, " couldn't stomach that stuff any longer, but good luck with your fight".

    Thankfully, there are some players out there that are not like that. You just have to find them, and when you do, add them to your friend list and keep in touch. Lots of leaders like to teach, and teach they do, and very well. It's not all about farm fast for them, its about building and community spirit.

    With the Wastes and Lhang Rhuven, the error was having landscape drops in the first place. Where valuable items drop on landscape, players will raid farm it. In contrast, Limlight Gorge, and Tarlangs Crown, had no drops, and those fellowship areas were based on daily quest arcs. They were a success and were full of people every day while that content was relevant. Nobody raid farmed it, because there was no reward for doing so.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.

  24. #74
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    201
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Thankfully, there are some players out there that are not like that. You just have to find them, and when you do, add them to your friend list and keep in touch. Lots of leaders like to teach, and teach they do, and very well. It's not all about farm fast for them, its about building and community spirit.
    (emphasis mine)

    You're right, but I find that's easier said than done. (And I'm not even on a competitive server.)

 

 
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