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  1. #1
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    What changes do you think are in store with the Producer's Letter?

    Class Balance


    With the recent updates to Minstrel, and with an update to Burglar on the way, many classes will have received their initial balance pass. Although this is a good start, we want to continue to work on class balance with updates, bug fixes, and tweaks throughout the year. We will continue to base that balance work on your feedback in addition to our own internal testing, and we intend to improve this feedback process this year and beyond. We have plans for Rune Keeper and Captain, though our goal for the future is to be able to add small changes to several classes at a time, rather than implementing a large number of changes for a single class.
    Was this referring to Fates being nerfed? Are there more changes to come? Hopefully lightning gets some buff so we can use it in raids.
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  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Varkking View Post
    Was this referring to Fates being nerfed? Are there more changes to come? Hopefully lightning gets some buff so we can use it in raids.
    Yes additional changes..I honestly dont care for Lightning. I want them to take a look at Fire and Healing mostly, as those are our raid specs. Lightning needs so many changes to make it raid viable fixing it would probably take valueable dev time away from Fire and Healing

    Fire RKs are currently about 10% behind Hunters in raw DPS but offer more utility (and are much easier to play - which is why in bad groups RKs outdps Hunters)
    Our utilities should be nerfed (mostly DNF, which in it's current state is fine on a healer but ridiculous on a DPS) and our DPS increased
    And the class should be made harder to play

    In detail (the idea isn't my own, I read it somewhere on the forums and just repeat for exposure):
    Searing Words should stack from different Runekeepers
    Give us an option to cash out Writ of fire for bonus damage
    So you would basically try to maintain all tiers of Searing words by procing it at T0, then tiering up WoF, procing Searing Words again at T1, then tiering up WoF - until WoF and Searing Words T3, then cash out WoF and refresh Searing Words T0 and start the whole thing again

    This proc dependant rotation would be intertwined with our current, purely cooldown based rotation and lead to interesting decisions (when is it worth it to delay a heavier hitting skill for faster skills to get Searing Words procs back faster?). This would introduce a new skill/theorycrafting element to the RK, which is currently really bland and mostly "press whatever does the most damage and isn't on CD" (yeah I'm oversimplifying but as a general rule that's true

    As far as healîng is concerned, there's already a healthy discussion on the forums

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    Yes additional changes..I honestly dont care for Lightning. I want them to take a look at Fire and Healing mostly, as those are our raid specs. Lightning needs so many changes to make it raid viable fixing it would probably take valueable dev time away from Fire and Healing

    Fire RKs are currently about 10% behind Hunters in raw DPS but offer more utility (and are much easier to play - which is why in bad groups RKs outdps Hunters)
    Our utilities should be nerfed (mostly DNF, which in it's current state is fine on a healer but ridiculous on a DPS) and our DPS increased
    And the class should be made harder to play

    In detail (the idea isn't my own, I read it somewhere on the forums and just repeat for exposure):
    Searing Words should stack from different Runekeepers
    Give us an option to cash out Writ of fire for bonus damage
    So you would basically try to maintain all tiers of Searing words by procing it at T0, then tiering up WoF, procing Searing Words again at T1, then tiering up WoF - until WoF and Searing Words T3, then cash out WoF and refresh Searing Words T0 and start the whole thing again

    This proc dependant rotation would be intertwined with our current, purely cooldown based rotation and lead to interesting decisions (when is it worth it to delay a heavier hitting skill for faster skills to get Searing Words procs back faster?). This would introduce a new skill/theorycrafting element to the RK, which is currently really bland and mostly "press whatever does the most damage and isn't on CD" (yeah I'm oversimplifying but as a general rule that's true

    As far as healîng is concerned, there's already a healthy discussion on the forums
    This is exactly why lightning needs to get looked at. It's the only build a RK has that isn't raid viable. RKs are barely behind top DPS as a Fire RK so how much of a buff does it need? Healing is now a concern but it's still viable in all places but the newest raid apparently.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    Yes additional changes..I honestly dont care for Lightning. I want them to take a look at Fire and Healing mostly, as those are our raid specs. Lightning needs so many changes to make it raid viable fixing it would probably take valueable dev time away from Fire and Healing

    Fire RKs are currently about 10% behind Hunters in raw DPS but offer more utility (and are much easier to play - which is why in bad groups RKs outdps Hunters)
    Our utilities should be nerfed (mostly DNF, which in it's current state is fine on a healer but ridiculous on a DPS) and our DPS increased
    And the class should be made harder to play

    In detail (the idea isn't my own, I read it somewhere on the forums and just repeat for exposure):
    Searing Words should stack from different Runekeepers
    Give us an option to cash out Writ of fire for bonus damage
    So you would basically try to maintain all tiers of Searing words by procing it at T0, then tiering up WoF, procing Searing Words again at T1, then tiering up WoF - until WoF and Searing Words T3, then cash out WoF and refresh Searing Words T0 and start the whole thing again

    This proc dependant rotation would be intertwined with our current, purely cooldown based rotation and lead to interesting decisions (when is it worth it to delay a heavier hitting skill for faster skills to get Searing Words procs back faster?). This would introduce a new skill/theorycrafting element to the RK, which is currently really bland and mostly "press whatever does the most damage and isn't on CD" (yeah I'm oversimplifying but as a general rule that's true

    As far as healîng is concerned, there's already a healthy discussion on the forums
    I agree on the part of doing fire rotation more interesting, but I don't agree on the dps increase you suggest, cause fire got really capable aoe utility while losing literally no single target at all. I think the dps is currently balanced, for only single target hunters are slightly ahead and for st fights with aoe component rks are ahead, that seems reasonable and balanced in my opinion.
    For yellow I think there's 2 problems: It's incredibly slow and base damage of skills is too low. Either make all skills faster (so you can fire 2-3 skills in the time you do 1 now) or increase damage of all lightning skills by at least 100% but that would be really unbalanced for PvP since you would see a couple of 200k hits followed by a 300k hit if you're lucky.
    About healing I think there's enough threads already, they just have to read them.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    I agree on the part of doing fire rotation more interesting, but I don't agree on the dps increase you suggest, cause fire got really capable aoe utility while losing literally no single target at all. I think the dps is currently balanced, for only single target hunters are slightly ahead and for st fights with aoe component rks are ahead, that seems reasonable and balanced in my opinion.
    For yellow I think there's 2 problems: It's incredibly slow and base damage of skills is too low. Either make all skills faster (so you can fire 2-3 skills in the time you do 1 now) or increase damage of all lightning skills by at least 100% but that would be really unbalanced for PvP since you would see a couple of 200k hits followed by a 300k hit if you're lucky.
    About healing I think there's enough threads already, they just have to read them.
    Maybe instead of a 100% damage increase make it so that when a lightning ability crits it leaves behind a small DOT or decreases the cooldowns. There is a lot of ways you could buff lightning. Crits can leave dots, all non crits could increase the chance to devastate and it gets reset whenever there is a crit even if its not a devastate, each lightning hit could make the enemy more suseptible to taken more damage from a different source that gets underutilized in raids to help out another class and make more groups viable in raids... I am not a genius but there are a lot of unexplored avenues that lightning can go still.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Varkking View Post
    Maybe instead of a 100% damage increase make it so that when a lightning ability crits it leaves behind a small DOT or decreases the cooldowns. There is a lot of ways you could buff lightning. Crits can leave dots, all non crits could increase the chance to devastate and it gets reset whenever there is a crit even if its not a devastate, each lightning hit could make the enemy more suseptible to taken more damage from a different source that gets underutilized in raids to help out another class and make more groups viable in raids... I am not a genius but there are a lot of unexplored avenues that lightning can go still.
    Does anyone else remember when Lightning RK was da shiznit (levels 65-75) when EC hit harder than any other skill?
    It seems now to be in a very similar position to blue hunter - a landscape trait line with moderate DPS and little AOE relying on kiting.
    Given there's very little need to kite in raids and fire offers much better AOE and sustained DPS, perhaps yellow could offer increased CC and debuffs as well as a moderate DPS increase?
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedfrith View Post
    Does anyone else remember when Lightning RK was da shiznit (levels 65-75) when EC hit harder than any other skill?
    It seems now to be in a very similar position to blue hunter - a landscape trait line with moderate DPS and little AOE relying on kiting.
    Given there's very little need to kite in raids and fire offers much better AOE and sustained DPS, perhaps yellow could offer increased CC and debuffs as well as a moderate DPS increase?
    I wasn't around for anything after level 18 previously. I was a Beta tester for the game and stopped shortly after launch but I did buy the Lifetime Pass like an idiot ( or maybe not so dumb now that I came back and had so many points I got tons of stuff ), but I play RK on Legendary servers and I am such a forum nut I read just about everything related to my class. Make Lightning in raids help CC like a Lore Master or allow Lightning damage to make the enemy take in more physical damage or something. There are a lot of ways to make it so that all three builds for an RK can be used in a raid so people aren't pidgeonholed into being fire or heals. Just like how Lore Master is there basically to debuff only. If you have three specs and only one is viable in raids there is an issue. But first I worry about RK because that is what I play and I think its the class that is the closest to being in a proper sweet spot.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Varkking View Post
    I wasn't around for anything after level 18 previously. I was a Beta tester for the game and stopped shortly after launch but I did buy the Lifetime Pass like an idiot ( or maybe not so dumb now that I came back and had so many points I got tons of stuff ), but I play RK on Legendary servers and I am such a forum nut I read just about everything related to my class. Make Lightning in raids help CC like a Lore Master or allow Lightning damage to make the enemy take in more physical damage or something. There are a lot of ways to make it so that all three builds for an RK can be used in a raid so people aren't pidgeonholed into being fire or heals. Just like how Lore Master is there basically to debuff only. If you have three specs and only one is viable in raids there is an issue. But first I worry about RK because that is what I play and I think its the class that is the closest to being in a proper sweet spot.
    I think all classes should have main role viable in raids, being rk an exception because he is the only class labeled as a dual main role class. Other classes could or could not have a secondary role in raids but those secondary roles should be viable for 3 man content or 6 man T1 content and of course for landscape/soloing/questing. Said that rk already have 2 roles, one of which need a little work to balance and then yellow line which is not even useful for questing. My suggestion would be to make it kill a bit harder or faster so you use it for soloing content or for easier questing and maybe can use as an alternative when fire damage is not an option but obviously sacrificing some DPS capabilities and gaining mobility. (Caverns, fire reflects...)

  9. #9
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    I think Red line is fairly good as it is now. I would Make DNF blue line only though. Red does not need to get more complicated, it works fine as it is. A few small tweaks is all i would do.

    I think the bulk of the update should be spent on improving blue a little more, but mostly on yellow line. Yellow should be better dps than it is, but it is a mobile dps so should be somewhat lower than red.

    Red line should be top dps with DNF gone. Stationary Dot style with light armour should qualify them really.

    I just hope they don't tinker with red line too much and end up breaking it.

    The RK could be the first class with 3 decent lines if they do it well. Can you imagine the cries of outrage :P

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happychappy View Post
    I think Red line is fairly good as it is now. I would Make DNF blue line only though. Red does not need to get more complicated, it works fine as it is. A few small tweaks is all i would do.

    I think the bulk of the update should be spent on improving blue a little more, but mostly on yellow line. Yellow should be better dps than it is, but it is a mobile dps so should be somewhat lower than red.

    Red line should be top dps with DNF gone. Stationary Dot style with light armour should qualify them really.

    I just hope they don't tinker with red line too much and end up breaking it.

    The RK could be the first class with 3 decent lines if they do it well. Can you imagine the cries of outrage :P
    Agree on everything you said.Even that it is not my main i have a raid ready RK and i enjoy playing sometimes with him to relax a bit.The point that i agree more is that dnf on red should be gone.That way the RK can be more focus to combat and also more dps classes will have the change to join cause now more or less they fill the spots with RKs mostly for the dnfs
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    I agree on the part of doing fire rotation more interesting, but I don't agree on the dps increase you suggest, cause fire got really capable aoe utility while losing literally no single target at all. I think the dps is currently balanced, for only single target hunters are slightly ahead and for st fights with aoe component rks are ahead, that seems reasonable and balanced in my opinion.
    You overrate AoE quite a bit, there's no content currently where AoE is needed to complete the content. AoE is only there to make faceroll content faster. Single target damage is what counts

    Hunters already beat RKs on burst damage, which is far more useful in boss fights (think burning Ishvita down during eye phase for example). I dont see any reason as to why RKs shouldn't compete with Hunters on single target

    Currently most elite raid kins run 1-2 RKs and 4+ Hunters in their raid setup. The RKs are there because they bring utility (Fire debuff increasing Hunter dps, DNF) but for pure damage Hunters are prefered all the time. DPS is clearly not balanced. And before anyone strawmens - yes you can complete pretty much all the content with 6 RKs (or 6 Hunters or 6 Champs) as dps, the fact that the content does not require 100% minmaxing does not change that Hunters are clearly prefered

  12. #12
    As the title is 'What changes do you think are in store', I think we need to realise that no body actually knows anything, everything on this thread is just what people want.

    Personally, I 'think' we will be due, pretty soon, for a shift around and Lightning will become the new main dmg focus on the RK. When I started playing RK in I think 2011 everyone was raving about lightning, saying how it was best. The RK seemed to be built around lightning at the time, with fire and ice dmg behind. As it shifted somewhere along the line (idk if it was Rohan or what, I took a break for some years just after RoI and returned after Pel was introduced) I can only assume it will shift back sometime in the future, either as a failed attempt to balance out fire and lightning or because they OP lightning or nerf fire.

    What I'd like to see in the update is:

    1: New ice skills, as we only have a few and they're mostly useless. Essence of Winter is the only one I use regularly, apart from the occasional Flurry of Words in places where mobs come to me, like BBs. Chilling Rhetoric is useless; the dmg is low, the slow is destroyed by any DoT or any extra damage on the target, and it has an induction which isn't nice for such a ###### skill. Perhaps a new skill which has effect on some fire skills, to keep it more realistic.
    2: Ice-based traits mixed into the lightning and/or fire trait trees. They can't introduce a whole new tree and there aren't enough ice skills to anyway, but in olden days it appeared that RK was meant to be a mix of the 3 dmg types, but its just 2. Return the ice!
    3: The balance of lightning and fire is pretty simple to my mind; lightning is like a burg's skills, heavily relying on crits, whereas fire relies on its DoTs. Surely if their base dmg were pretty much equal but lightning crits were way OP and fire DoTs were... actually, pretty much as they are... that would balance it out to make them both viable trees?
    4: Better defence and self-heals. When levelling, and if you don't take the self-motivation traits, your only real heal will be Prelude of Hope, which doesn't offer much. Epic for the Ages needs healing attunement and has an induction, so if soloing isn't ideal, then armour of the elements offers a very weak bubble and pretty unnoticeable buff.

    The game heavily focuses on raids I feel, but a lot of us don't play raids, or as in my case physically can't thanks to their computers. How about some focus on soloers?

  13. #13
    Since this really seems to be the new "what we would like to be changed" thread...

    DNF: How about a compromise?
    - Increase cooldown by 2.5 minutes
    - Blue line passively decreases cooldown by 2.5 minutes
    So blue RK's could keep up two DNF (with legacy) and red/yellow RK's could keep up one.

    Red line: Seems balanced enough to me. Bug fixes are welcome - Searing Words not stacking is probably a bug, since DoT's from different players should always stack. (Wardens had a similar bug, was fixed some time ago.)

    Yellow line: Needs a boost. Maybe make it a bit less crit dependant. At the moment, skills either crit and deal good damage, or they don't, and damage is rather meh. So maybe:
    - increase base damage (or let it scale better, if it is fine at lower levels)
    - tune down lightning crit legacy a bit (it is at nearly +100% critical damage now)

    Some debuffs to help other classes would be nice, too. So yellow RK's could be an alternative to hunters when maximum burst damage is needed - doing a bit less burst damage than those, compensating less dps with utility and debuffs. (Of course, red RK's should still surpass their yellow brothers in prolonged fights.)
    Last edited by Gorikon; Mar 01 2019 at 07:06 AM.

  14. #14
    1. Red line damage to be competitive with Hunter red line
    2. Yellow line to add another cold-cc AOE spell, and more damage potential when combined with cold effects, to turn it into the mobility+cc line for RKs. Ok for me if maximum damage potential is not as high as Red's.
    3. Blue line... I guess make it competitive? Still leveling, not sure of this.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerowLOTRO View Post
    1. Red line damage to be competitive with Hunter red line
    2. Yellow line to add another cold-cc AOE spell, and more damage potential when combined with cold effects, to turn it into the mobility+cc line for RKs. Ok for me if maximum damage potential is not as high as Red's.
    3. Blue line... I guess make it competitive? Still leveling, not sure of this.
    In my eyes we offer so much more utility than a Hunter that we shouldn't be as high of DPS as they are while in red line.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varkking View Post
    In my eyes we offer so much more utility than a Hunter that we shouldn't be as high of DPS as they are while in red line.
    With DNF gone they wouldnt.

    Hunters do have better mitigations and longer range, Higher burst and sustained damage, Crit from stealth, More than one damage type, Healing and CC/debuffs and some limited Mobility whilst attacking.

    Hunters have a lot going for them. I think Runekeeper should be on par, dps wise in red line. Even the Developers said they would be happy for the RK to be higher dps than the Hunter because of this.

    DNF blue line only and Fire mitigation debuff self only.

    Red RK, Red Hunter and Red Champ (possibly Burglar in a rear position also) should be highest single target dps. With a slight nerf to Champ yellow line AoE dps maybe. Followed closely by some of the other classes with a dps line like Burglar, Warden, Beorning etc. My opinion anyway.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Happychappy View Post
    With DNF gone they wouldnt.

    Hunters do have better mitigations and longer range, Higher burst and sustained damage, Crit from stealth, More than one damage type, Healing and CC/debuffs and some limited Mobility whilst attacking.

    Hunters have a lot going for them. I think Runekeeper should be on par, dps wise in red line. Even the Developers said they would be happy for the RK to be higher dps than the Hunter because of this.

    DNF blue line only and Fire mitigation debuff self only.

    Red RK, Red Hunter and Red Champ (possibly Burglar in a rear position also) should be highest single target dps. With a slight nerf to Champ yellow line AoE dps maybe. Followed closely by some of the other classes with a dps line like Burglar, Warden, Beorning etc. My opinion anyway.
    Just curious what is the argument for warden to be under mentioned classes considering they have slowest ramping dps,are dot based and are atm most squishy dps class.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osglinthor View Post
    Just curious what is the argument for warden to be under mentioned classes considering they have slowest ramping dps,are dot based and are atm most squishy dps class.
    Probably not a big reason. I just see them more tanky with a shield and self buffs/heals, but you could be right. I Don't really play a Warden much. I never thought of them as squishy.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Happychappy View Post
    Probably not a big reason. I just see them more tanky with a shield and self buffs/heals, but you could be right. I Don't really play a Warden much. I never thought of them as squishy.
    They really are, their mits are the same as a Hunter, in their dps rotation there's no room for self heals, and even if you tried, heals in red line are absurdly low. Also the need to use lvl 115 or 105 gear if you really wanna even compare to other dps classes.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    They really are, their mits are the same as a Hunter, in their dps rotation there's no room for self heals, and even if you tried, heals in red line are absurdly low. Also the need to use lvl 115 or 105 gear if you really wanna even compare to other dps classes.
    ok. If they are not going to be main tanks then i do agree they should be a main dps. The Warden and Champ could be the RK to Hunter comparison. They should all be equally good dps, just some are better burst and others are DoTs.

    Yellow Warden could do with some work though. Blue would be offtank.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hehexdtopjej View Post
    What is that argument to not be able to main tank in blue and be best sustained st dps in red?Two different lines that should require 2 different set of LIs and 2 different sets of gear?
    Only difference is you dont have to lvl up.You still have to invest time in gear LIs and playing that role properly only to be itentionaly handicaped by devs because hehe other class has only one role despite there being trait trees for different roles that are just unbalanced.So instead focusing that other specs become viable main focus of community is to streamline everything into one spec.If that is the case than ask from devs to remove trait trees,all gear and legacies that support alternate specs and be done with it.Instead this attitude of itentionaly fking up specs just because class should have only 1 viable spec.
    Champions do exactly what you mention here. We have to swap 100% of our gear, including 2 different legendary items for each role --dps and tank. And the joke is on us, because even so we aren't really appreciated at any of the 2 roles. If I were to actually strive for absolute maximum dps in each situation, there should still be 2 more LIs, because single target and aoe have specific legacies.

    Mind you, I'm not saying that Wardens don't need some Dev's love. Just that if you ask for two main roles, dps and tank --well, Champions also have those roles.

  22. #22
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    Changes that i expect for champions.

    More single target dps that we need when in group play instances/raids etc cause when we are solo we are perfect we have problems only when in group.This can be accomplished with some changes:
    First they can just increase our dps output but that probably will increase our yellow line too and there we have no problem.
    Second they can give as mitigation's debuf skill or trait on Berserker red line like the one that we have in yellow line for AOE,so no need for as to depending so much from all support classes and even from wardens and hunters been all together to the group to debuf so we can do decent dps.
    Third just by increasing class trait damage buffs that we have in Red line but if that happens then again we will do more damage when solo and we dont need that.
    Some other changes that i would love to see is less CD in some skills like Clobber and Blood Rage.

    They should focus and do some changes so we can do decent dps when we have to go single target while in a group cause as i said before when we solo we are fine.

    For my alt RK i just want at last to remove that do not fall skill from Red line or increase the cd while on Red or Yellow so we can give only one and not two DNFs.Also the yellow line must be more descend.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hehexdtopjej View Post
    What is that argument to not be able to main tank in blue and be best sustained st dps in red?Two different lines that should require 2 different set of LIs and 2 different sets of gear?
    Only difference is you dont have to lvl up.You still have to invest time in gear LIs and playing that role properly only to be itentionaly handicaped by devs because hehe other class has only one role despite there being trait trees for different roles that are just unbalanced.So instead focusing that other specs become viable main focus of community is to streamline everything into one spec.If that is the case than ask from devs to remove trait trees,all gear and legacies that support alternate specs and be done with it.Instead this attitude of itentionaly fking up specs just because class should have only 1 viable spec.
    I never said they shouldnt.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hehexdtopjej View Post
    These are your words:If they are not going to be main tanks then i do agree they should be a main dps
    You are just reading it wrong.

    If they are not going to allow them to be a main tank then they should allow them to be a main dps at least. Is that better for you?

    Read previous posts and not just one and get it out of context. Or maybe english is not your first language and you are misunderstanding it?
    Last edited by Happychappy; Mar 10 2019 at 10:35 AM.

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    Delete
    Last edited by Happychappy; Mar 13 2019 at 02:35 PM.

 

 
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