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  1. #1

    Future T4+ instances, with Glimmerdeep suggestions

    With the producer letter saying that t4 and higher difficulty instances are in the works for the coming year, Can we break the mold of more moral/more damage per tier?

    Glimmerdeep for example; the trolls have over 3 million moral which means for a decent single dps running 30-50k dps each troll takes 60-90s. It’s a 3 man, there isn’t access to the crazy raid buffs to maximize damage, it’s a tank, a dps, and either a healer or maybe a super skilled LM offhealer. When every trash pull is a battle for the tank to stay awake while the dps is slowly chipping away it’s no longer a challenging run but rather a battle of attrition.

    I propose take the moral pools of the trolls in t3 and set them to 2million and some change; then for every tier increase moral by 10-20%. Can keep the damage of the t3 trolls as it actually feels like a threat as oppose to the t2 damage which can be self healed through. Then add a single mechanic per tier that changes the fight in a slight way. Suggested mechanics as follow;
    T3: trolls can self bubble that if not popped gives the troll a damage buff (similar to Rurik in Anvil)
    T4: trolls gain stacks of Fortification (see trolls in ToO Acid boss), have the stacks based on a global timer but also force a stack increase every 25% that way even a party of ultra high dps still eventually have to deal with the mechanic.
    T5: drivers can shield (rename to something Gundabad themed) a mob in range, making it take -90% less damage while the driver is still alive.
    T6: driver spawns 2 waves palefolk cannon fodders, once at 70% and once at 40%. While the palefolk are near the driver they ignore all taunts, and threat catchup mechanics, and generate threat based off of 600% healing or something like that. Basically the palefolk charge the healer and can’t be pulled off, can only be killed.

    I think this would force the dps to have to prioritize differently depending on which tier was being ran.
    T3 can just keep nuking down the trolls first but should switch to the one with the bubble when it happens. This raises the dps skill floor for the run.
    T4 makes t3 harder by needing intermittent crowd control to allow the troll to take damage. This forces more group coordination.
    T5 pulls the rug a bit further by now requiring the drivers moral pool to need to be drained before the trolls can be killed. This should/could result in at lease 1 of the damage buffs from the troll occurring meaning tank/healer skill floor is raised.
    T6 the kill order has now completely been reversed, requiring the driver to be taken down quickly but also not so quick that the healer gets swarmed and dies. Group coordination as well as timing cooldowns for the tank so the healer can keep themselves alive while the palefolk are killed.

    Then for the final fight have a timer that keeps a driver joining the fight at various points in the fight, and while a driver is engaged the boss takes reduced damage. This keeps the dps required on the boss still high but spread across multiple targets instead of just waiting for 9, 13, 17, or 22 million moral (following the trend of higher tiers increase the mobs moral by a factor of +3)

  2. #2
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    how about u just leave trash for trash and create the bosses more challenging by bringing back T2c and stop with this T1/2/3/4/5/6 ####

    trash should have the mechanics on their own, increasing dmg and more morale sounds more boring than ever. Mechanics m8, mechanics!!! do something with corruptions or so.

    TG T3 made me get bored af, i dont even take the time to do it cuz it's just taking too long. it bores me to death.

    I want SSG to take a look at sunken labyrinth for example, or Lotholorien mirror halls, those instances had some puzzles in them aswell, I liked it. Especially labyrinth t2c with the time limit was very nice. The mechanics to pass the gates could maybe improve tho.

    I prefer a short run that requires a lot of dealing with mechanics, rather than wasting 3/4 hours in a instance for a gold pocket that has 5% drop chance.

    The one who proposed this T1 to 6 should stop immediately with this idea. Just bring back the old T2 and T2c, Thikil gundul T3 truly was so f* boring, that I dont even want to bother with that content. It was just nuking and being hit heavily by the bosses and that was about it. Its just boring, no good mechanics to deal with or so. Take an example at Dome of stars l boss, moria instances and unbroken one, those were nice
    Last edited by WhiteGoliath; Feb 22 2019 at 03:06 PM.

  3. #3
    there is now way in hell they will create 6 tiers with varying mechanics man. the only way out of this is if they switch back to t1 t2 and t3/challenge.

  4. #4
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    I'm just going to leave some feedback right here --------> Pls don't make T4-5-6, honestly bringing back T2c is a far better idea.
    Estarossa, Rank 15 rune-keeper, Ark

  5. #5
    I agree that having tiers 4+ is just stupid, as it doesn't solve the problem we are talking about.

    The problem is that instances don't have enough mechanics to be interesting.

    The solution, obviously, is to add more mechanics to instances.


    Adding more tiers like they did with u23 is just pointless. Nothing changes strategy-wise when it comes to bosses in Ered Mithrin instances between tiers 1-3, which is where the problem lies. Challenge modes were supposed to be replaced by t3, but that isn't what happened really. t3 is just a slodge with more damage/morale, making it take twice as long as t2. That is the only difference.

    I want instances that are more difficult not because they hit harder, but because they force us to communicate/cooperate better, and come up with more interesting strategies to overcome the mechanics. When nearly everything is just a tank-and-spank, whats the point? It's not entertaining. I might as well go actually do something productive with my time.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post

    The problem is that instances don't have enough mechanics to be interesting.
    The solution, obviously, is to add more mechanics to instances.

    Adding more tiers like they did with u23 is just pointless. Nothing changes strategy-wise when it comes to bosses in Ered Mithrin instances between tiers 1-3, which is where the problem lies. Challenge modes were supposed to be replaced by t3, but that isn't what happened really. t3 is just a slodge with more damage/morale, making it take twice as long as t2. That is the only difference.

    I want instances that are more difficult not because they hit harder, but because they force us to communicate/cooperate better, and come up with more interesting strategies to overcome the mechanics. When nearly everything is just a tank-and-spank, whats the point? It's not entertaining. I might as well go actually do something productive with my time.
    Except the problem to your solution is that more mechanics doesn't equal more challenge. At some point going above a certain number of mechanics (imo that number is 3 for instances, 5 for raids) just makes bosses annoying, not challenging. WoW has this problem and it has made me stop raiding in that game. Also SSG seems to have a terrible track record with bosses that have a high amount of mechanics.

    Some other solutions

    1: Make current mechanics more punishing. Mechanics shouldn't be ignorable (in terms of avoiding them for the entire duration of the fight.) Stand in the fire for more than 3 seconds = death. Don't move away from the group when you have the eye = wipe. Don't interrupt the boss = death/wipe. No healing through mechanics, no kiting adds off to the side etc. Mechanics should only be ignorable if the boss is at 2% health and you ignore everything to try and kill it, or some scenario like it.

    2: Make gear matter. Currently we have characters using all sorts of gear from 105 cap onward. It makes gearing for instances rather trivial since players can use all sorts of gear they already have acquired. Some of the bonuses are also rather op, and some of said gear is also no longer available. This should not be the case. Anvil t1 should require all 376 gear. Anvil t2 should require majority t1 gear and T3 should require majority t2 gear. Even bringing one player with half 376 gear and half 365 gear should be detrimental to the raid. This would require SSG to give better effort on itemization and balance however.

    3: Improving overall class and game balance - An ongoing effort that has no end in sight.

    4: Increase raid size to 24 players - more players in raid = more coordination needed = more chance at dying to mechanics. Don't think its possible with the current state of the game. Maybe in a different timeline.

    To me, bosses are fine mechanic wise, for the most part. Adding more mechanics simply because "more mechanics = more challenging" in my opinion leads to forced encounter design and bad bosses. There are better solutions.

    I agree that adding more Tiers is pointless. Running the same instance on multiple tiers just gets tiring and annoying. I've stopped running grey mountains instances altogether and now only raid two/three times a month. Any more I just get irritated.

    Some people think that SSG should go back to t2c. I think they should step back further and return to ONE difficulty. In my opinion, the best instance SSG has release since they took over two years ago has been Thrang, which was ONE difficulty. There were a handful of mechanics, which if you followed the instance was a breeze. But if you messed up it was wipe after wipe. Going back to the one difficulty instances similar to Carn Dum and Urugarth would be a nice change of pace and put less stress on the dev team since they don't need to make multiple boss fights, sets of gear etc for each instance.

  7. #7
    No more tiers than t3 please.
    To be honest I liked the old t2c more than new t3 but as always with SSG the idea of a t3 could be somewhat interesting but the implementation is terrible.
    T3 as the way to replace the challenge mechanics could be like a good idea if it actually was the challenge mechanics but if you take example of TG, Glimmer, Caverns or Anvil have exactly the same mechanics in t2 and t3 (except for first boss of raid which varies a bit) and the main difference is they have more morale, deal more damage and so on. If they wanna keep this t3 thing stats on t2 and t3 enemies should be exactly the same, but mechanics changing in a meaningful way.

  8. #8
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    Bring back T2C.

    We've already proven T3 is stupid as ####. No one liked the idea and no we know we don't like it.

    If you're taking this idea from WoW and their Mythic+ system most everyone over there hates it too.

    T3 and beyond will only force more people to leave. Raiding community is already as small as it's ever been. Admit your stupid mistakes and give the raiders the game they actually want.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by TheHylianLink98 View Post

    If you're taking this idea from WoW and their Mythic+ system most everyone over there hates it too.
    This and WoW's mythic plus system are very different. Mythic+ only applies to dungeons (5 mans) and is supposed to be alternative to raiding. There are numerous challenges and mechanics added in Mythic+ and the rewards for doing them are similar to raid rewards which makes them worth doing. There is also a key system that players follow to move up in tiers. I wouldn't say most players hate Mythic+, it was popular in Legion when it was introduced. Currently it seems the dislike is more around the dungeons themselves than the actual Mythic+ system.

    What SSG seems to be suggesting is a simple multiplier that increases enemy damage, health etc for each tier. No added mechanics or challenges. To me it seems more like slog and less challenge, but we will have to see.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteWolf21x View Post
    This and WoW's mythic plus system are very different. Mythic+ only applies to dungeons (5 mans) and is supposed to be alternative to raiding. There are numerous challenges and mechanics added in Mythic+ and the rewards for doing them are similar to raid rewards which makes them worth doing. There is also a key system that players follow to move up in tiers. I wouldn't say most players hate Mythic+, it was popular in Legion when it was introduced. Currently it seems the dislike is more around the dungeons themselves than the actual Mythic+ system.

    What SSG seems to be suggesting is a simple multiplier that increases enemy damage, health etc for each tier. No added mechanics or challenges. To me it seems more like slog and less challenge, but we will have to see.

    They are somewhat different. Mythic + certainly introduces a few things mechanically, lower tiers are still the same thing as higher tier withlarge HP pools and adjust damage multipliers. While they did OK in legion the outcry is there over how superficial mythic+ actually is. BFA just really pulled the curtain back on modern WoW. It's also a requirement for Mythic raiding at this point. You can do the first couple bosses with just heroic gear, but going into later bosses you are at a severe disadvantage and there is no beating the final two without being properly geared from mythic +

    The idea was implemented by the Diablo Devs which initially looked for a way to expand the torment system. Rift's were born out of that which turned into Mythic+.

    What SSG will do is going to be a less fleshed out version. We still don't know exactly what their implementation will look like, but either way it will echo what Blizzard has done.

  11. #11
    Just to reiterate, what kills the instances currently for most people is the time it takes to complete them (and also the lack of rewards if you don't happen to get a blue piece).

    I most certainly vote for the old T1 T2 T2C system that worked well for a decade.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by TheHylianLink98 View Post
    it will echo what Blizzard has done.
    Blizzard under the influence of Activision has been ruining the game since 2008.

    This guy sums it up pretty well [The video has some offensive language, so if you're an overly sensitive snowflake or a child -> don't watch it. You've been warned]

    Server: [DE]Gwaihir, Kinship: Hecki Hecki Pateng

  13. #13
    Please no more tiers. On my server, Landroval, Tier 3s are barely run as it is.
    Morphen- Hunter
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by MorphenAvari View Post
    Please no more tiers. On my server, Landroval, Tier 3s are barely run as it is.
    +1.

    Devs, the following things are not fun:

    - Large bags of morale on trash mobs that greybar you.
    - Unavoidable % morale damage - the only place this belongs is raids.

    Both of these things happen in Caverns of Thrumfall and Dungeons of Naerband, and in TG t3. Why are they even in a 3-man?

    If an instance takes hours to complete because you are wading through trash, nobody will be bothered to run it more than once unless the rewards are raid-quality.

    I'm also feeling demoralised by the chasm between instance gear and what's required for, or available in, the t2 raid. I'm not just whining - I did Mordath t2c and Pelennor t2c on level, as well as older runs like BG and OD. In the past, t1 raid loot or instance gear had worthwhile set bonuses and the ability to build your character reasonably, which gave you a fair chance at starting to tackle t2. Now, there seems to be a catch-22 where t2 gear is required to run it, but you can't get t2-standard gear or even build your toon properly without it. (My raid toons historically have been RK, captain and hunter).
    105s: Aedfrith (HN), Aldnoth (CP), Brai (RK), Hrolfdan (MN), Aeldfryd (WD), Morriarty (CH), Aednoth (LM), Mishhar (BR), Hraldan (GR), Rummbold (BG). Tinies - Rumbelina (MN), Aenghus (CP)
    Rangers of Eriador (officer), ex-Snowbourn now Laurelin - A Noob for All Seasons

  15. #15
    With Anvil Raid SSG got it right in terms of Tiers:

    • Tier 1 for story / entry level
    • Tier 2 for "Raiders" looking to get armour and rare relics
    • Tier 3 for "Raiders" looking for more of a challenge, armour and unique jewels with set bonus and special drops (freeze emote, gold pocket, greater relics)


    By having the armour same item level (382+) for T2 & T3 it has resulted in players running both tiers even after T3 launch and in my opinion lead to a healthier raid community with different people mixing it up. Having housing items drop at all levels was also a nice touch as these should be accessible to all. The overall result has been to get more raiders playing together. I don't really see the point of having T4, T5 etc. (apart from trying to expand the lifetime of raids with minimal work) as it will inevitably divide the player base. The extra effort and resources you intend to put into this, please put into getting the raids released in a more polished state with less bugs and exploits.
    Knight | Captain | Arkenstone

  16. #16
    A question for all of you. If you had the choice between running Carn Dum, Urugarth and Rift to get gear. Or running through CoS, TG, Caverns, Glimmer, Naerband, Abyss or Anvil to get gear. Which would you choose?

    I think the answer is pretty easy.


    In my opinion SSG has proven that they struggle designing and balancing instances with multiple tiers and a high number of mechanics.

    The only correct decision is to go old school with ONE tier. Have fewer mechanics for bosses and have more bosses per instance/raid.

    Have the instances get progressively harder. For example:

    Bosses 1-3 need 400 ilvl gear to beat, they reward 410 ilvl gear. 1 mechanic per boss
    Bosses 4-6 need 410 ilvl gear to beat, they reward 420 ilvl gear. 2 mechanics per boss
    Bosses 7-9 need 420 ilvl gear to beat, they reward 430 ilvl gear. 3 mechanics per boss
    Bosses 10-12 need 430 ilvl gear to beat, they reward 440 ilvl gear. 4 mechanics per boss
    Boss 13-14 need 440 ilvl to kill. Rewards 450 ilvl gear. 5 mechanics per boss.

    Have lots of trash in between that drops useful tokens and crafting mats, as well as optional side bosses like in Anvil that a required for quests and reward

    All normal rewards will be blue and have 20% drop rate while every boss has a 5% drop rate for unique legendary gear.

    A instance set up like this will take 3-4 hours to clear normally, however because players are looting 3-4 bosses an hour, it will feel more rewarding instead of killing 4 bosses in 4 hours.

    Hardcore players can push the limits by clearing bosses several tiers above them. For example they may be able to reach boss 7 or 8 with 400 ilvl gear, but will eventually hit a wall. This will allow players to progress through the instance.

    Casual players will be able to progress at any speed they would like.

    The best part is, if you killed the boss, you killed the boss. None of this tier bs.

    I know I would rather spend an hour a night running through a few bosses in my example above instead of running TG T4 and maybe killing a boss or two.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteWolf21x View Post
    A question for all of you. If you had the choice between running Carn Dum, Urugarth and Rift to get gear. Or running through CoS, TG, Caverns, Glimmer, Naerband, Abyss or Anvil to get gear. Which would you choose?

    I think the answer is pretty easy.
    The crucial difference is horizontal progress in comparison to the vertical. In Angmar you were running all instances because you needed something from all of them. With Mordor and Ered Mithrin, the 3- and 6-man are outdated because there is simply better loot in raid.

    The thing with mordor was - it was enough to tun Abyss once and then just farm the ash. Wit Ered Mithrin we really need to run the raid to have better loot.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteWolf21x View Post

    Have the instances get progressively harder. For example:

    Bosses 1-3 need 400 ilvl gear to beat, they reward 410 ilvl gear. 1 mechanic per boss
    Bosses 4-6 need 410 ilvl gear to beat, they reward 420 ilvl gear. 2 mechanics per boss
    Bosses 7-9 need 420 ilvl gear to beat, they reward 430 ilvl gear. 3 mechanics per boss
    Bosses 10-12 need 430 ilvl gear to beat, they reward 440 ilvl gear. 4 mechanics per boss
    Boss 13-14 need 440 ilvl to kill. Rewards 450 ilvl gear. 5 mechanics per boss.

    Have lots of trash in between that drops useful tokens and crafting mats, as well as optional side bosses like in Anvil that a required for quests and reward
    Well we have a lot of thrash already and I don´t like it. Ok, they don´t give any loot, but still.


    Also, 15 bosses per instance is old school when you needed like 4 hours to clear one instance. Of course, if it would be designed as Fornost/Carn Durm/Urugarth with wings/keys/shortcuts, then it would be ok. But still, with time, everybody would run just the last bosses because the previous would be outdated (weaker loot).


    My opinion is, while we are on the same level cap, to bring more variety in loot instead of just directly getting better loot with higher ilvl.
    Ich bin kein Deutscher, sorry für Grammatik.
    English isn't my native language, sorry for mistakes.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Estelrandir View Post
    The crucial difference is horizontal progress in comparison to the vertical. In Angmar you were running all instances because you needed something from all of them. With Mordor and Ered Mithrin, the 3- and 6-man are outdated because there is simply better loot in raid.

    The thing with mordor was - it was enough to tun Abyss once and then just farm the ash. Wit Ered Mithrin we really need to run the raid to have better loot.
    This part wouldn't change, raids will still give better loot stat wise than 6 mans. The difference is that instead of having a half broken 4 boss raid or instance with 3+ tiers we have a 14 boss raid or instance with 1 tier.


    Quote Originally Posted by Estelrandir View Post
    Well we have a lot of thrash already and I don´t like it. Ok, they don´t give any loot, but still.
    I agree the current trash is too much. My idea of trash would be to make then no longer tied to a group, so if you wanted to pull a single mob, you could pull a single mob. Also they would feel more like trash by having very little health. The danger from trash should come from pulling to many.

    Quote Originally Posted by Estelrandir View Post
    Also, 15 bosses per instance is old school when you needed like 4 hours to clear one instance. Of course, if it would be designed as Fornost/Carn Durm/Urugarth with wings/keys/shortcuts, then it would be ok. But still, with time, everybody would run just the last bosses because the previous would be outdated (weaker loot).
    This is why you give each boss two separate loot tables. The first loot table would be blue colored gear and drop at a 20% rate. While the second loot table would have legendary gear that drops at 5% rate. So while you eventually get a full set of blue gear. There will still be the legendary gear that rarely drops from each boss that you are chasing after.

    There are other ways to make killing bosses important. You can have them drop unique crafting recipes, unique crafting mats, coins for the various scrolls and crystals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Estelrandir View Post
    My opinion is, while we are on the same level cap, to bring more variety in loot instead of just directly getting better loot with higher ilvl.
    Agreed.

  19. #19
    The Problem with Thikil, Glimmerdeep and thrumfall is, that every thing has to high mitigations and crit def.The anvil how ever had more balanced mobs, with lesser base mits.
    With full debuffs these mobs in the pre anvil instances take noticable more damage, but who has a loremaster + warden + burglar group^^
    At least the 3 man instances should have more or less squishy mobs, because you simply dont have the debuff capabilitys of an 6 vor 12 man group.

    And i tgink we all agree both glimmerdeep and thrumfall had way to many stuns and kicks, what is the Main reason im not running them anymore.
    If you want to contact me, pls don't write me a Private Message on the Forum, the chance that I read them is low.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteWolf21x View Post
    A question for all of you. If you had the choice between running Carn Dum, Urugarth and Rift to get gear. Or running through CoS, TG, Caverns, Glimmer, Naerband, Abyss or Anvil to get gear. Which would you choose?
    Or indeed the level 60 choices in Moria and Lothlorien, or the 65 Mirkwood and In their Absence. All instances and raids rewarded good and meaningful gear. Raid sets were the icing on the cake, not a prerequisite.

    And what Estelrandir and Gertes said about time and OP stuns is 100% correct. People's time is limited, and they cannot and will not be bothered to wade through legions of greybarring trash.
    105s: Aedfrith (HN), Aldnoth (CP), Brai (RK), Hrolfdan (MN), Aeldfryd (WD), Morriarty (CH), Aednoth (LM), Mishhar (BR), Hraldan (GR), Rummbold (BG). Tinies - Rumbelina (MN), Aenghus (CP)
    Rangers of Eriador (officer), ex-Snowbourn now Laurelin - A Noob for All Seasons

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedfrith View Post
    People's time is limited, and they cannot and will not be bothered to wade through legions of greybarring trash.

    I would like to add that I really like the design in OD and Orthanc raids for trash: we had 2-3 groups before boss, each group required elaborated strategy. It wasn´t as easy as "pull whole group together, kill everyhting and move to next one".

    In Throne raid we had such group before id3. And in Abyss there were groups 4-6 before id1, but I would say they were too difficult (and could be skipped too easily).
    Ich bin kein Deutscher, sorry für Grammatik.
    English isn't my native language, sorry for mistakes.

  22. #22
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    Bosses in T4 or T5 come with their own Hitpoint Sponges.
    It is logical, in view of the times in which we live. But to be logical is not to be right, and nothing on God's earth could ever make it right!
    - Judge Dan Haywood

  23. #23
    The problem with having tiers 4+ (and likewise with having t3 tacked on for u23) is that it imposes an arbitrary stat-check on the community. With our dwindling numbers in this game, we should not strive to exclude people from content simply because they can't invest enough time to meet the stat-checks. We need as many people capable of running instances as possible these days. As such, having mechanics added (what t2c used to be) is a far better solution to serve this purpose while at the same time limiting how tediously long boss/trash encounters are.

    Introducing tiers 4+ will only serve to further divide the community. Those capable of t4+ will not want to run t2 or t3 instances (let alone t1). Those not capable of completing t4+ will not be able to find groups/successful runs in order to get the gear needed to complete these higher tiers, as player skill level obviously varies and some players require more "help" than others.

    While making higher tiers is an easy way for the devs to prolong their content's shelf-life, it is a poor solution that is detrimental to the longevity of the game, as it relegates more and more players to a sort of second-class citizen. Not to mention if they follow the trend they set with t3 instances, all this would serve to do is make the instances more tedious. As the vast majority of us keep saying, we need more mechanics, not more meatshields.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    Introducing tiers 4+ will only serve to further divide the community. Those capable of t4+ will not want to run t2 or t3 instances (let alone t1). Those not capable of completing t4+ will not be able to find groups/successful runs in order to get the gear needed to complete these higher tiers, as player skill level obviously varies and some players require more "help" than others.
    That is so true and exactly what I've been saying in another thread. It would pretty much make the game very top and bottom heavy, while the majority of the playerbase resides somewhere in the middle. The uber causal who only plays for the story etc. will just continue as usual, the more dedicated players would be able to complete them and the majority is screwed. And I say that as an endgame oriented player. Just because it might be good for me, it doesn't mean that it's good for the overall health of the game. In fact, T4+ and no band aid fix to LIs until the revamp would probably kill the game. Players are already leaving. Altough you could probably argue that if the game has survived all of of RoR and early HD up until the release of the Battle of Pelennor instance cluster, then it will survive anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    The problem with having tiers 4+ (and likewise with having t3 tacked on for u23) is that it imposes an arbitrary stat-check on the community. With our dwindling numbers in this game, we should not strive to exclude people from content simply because they can't invest enough time to meet the stat-checks. We need as many people capable of running instances as possible these days. As such, having mechanics added (what t2c used to be) is a far better solution to serve this purpose while at the same time limiting how tediously long boss/trash encounters are.

    While making higher tiers is an easy way for the devs to prolong their content's shelf-life, it is a poor solution that is detrimental to the longevity of the game, as it relegates more and more players to a sort of second-class citizen. Not to mention if they follow the trend they set with t3 instances, all this would serve to do is make the instances more tedious. As the vast majority of us keep saying, we need more mechanics, not more meatshields.
    ++

    We have confirmation now btw that they're actually trying to copy WoW's Mythic+ system.

    MMOC: OK. All right. Shifting into new things that were mentioned in the LotRO Producer’s Letter, you’d mentioned that we’re going into higher tiers of difficulty with the Anvil of Winterstith and whatnot, like T4, T5, etc. I think one of the big concerns I’ve heard from the community is that is it just going to be adding more morale pools to the mobs, add more trash, add more adds here? Are there going to be additional mechanics beyond spawning some more adds to make it more difficult here? Because we have obviously our competitive raiders are the ones who want to get those special titles. They’re going to want it to be as hard as possible without being impossible, but they don’t want just the same but more of the same.

    Ciccolini: There isn’t anyone who thinks that adding health and damage directly and that being the only reason that it’s more difficult would be compelling. So, we’re going to be adding more mechanics, we’ve been playing with some things, and we still have a lot of iteration but right now, certain creatures, we think we’re going to have a mechanic where they can be imbued by the Shadow of Sauron, and they’ll get additional abilities or specific resistances or something that you’ll have to change your playstyle around. For instance, if you kill one and it buffs all the other creatures, then that’s something you’ll have to kill last. And if another one does a lot of damage, that’s something you probably want to kill first or at least stun. So, there will be different creatures, but the array of powers will be dependent upon tech, a lot of it. Because randomly spawning other elites within the content is something that we’re examining now, so I don’t want to say too much unless we have to change direction.
    source: http://www.mmo-central.com/2019/04/0...lin-ciccolini/

    That sounds exactly like a M+ affix. So while I'm glad SSG acknowledged the problem, I'm questioning the philosophy behind it.



    source: https://www.wowhead.com/affixes

    Now while these mechanics are interesting, SSG should try to design a better MMO and not make their game an eSport. That's what it has done to World of Warcraft. The current game is extremely shallow and doesn't even feel like an actual MMORPG anymore. It probably has the lowest sub count in the game's history, hence why they don't publish the numbers anymore.

    SSG should learn from Vanilla WoW instead. I know that LOTRO will never be WoW nor do I want it be, but there's a lot to be learned from a game that went from ~200k subs at launch to 7.6 Million subs in it's 2 year lifespan. Here's the raid panel from Blizzcon 2005. I feel like we've actually seen a lot of this in early LOTRO. Early LOTRO was probably a better MMORPG than current WoW. The only problem was that Turbine came late to the party. WoW had it's peak at that time and Everquest was still going strong.



    They should just keep T3 and add a challenge mode with more engaging mechanics, so that there can be actual progression. Now it's simply a stat check and the ones who play the most and have the best gear will beat the raid first. It's less about skill, coordiantion and teamwork. Anvil T3 was cleared within 30 hours of launch. That is not real progression. Also I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a stat check. You shouldn't be able to waltz in with green questing gear and expect to clear the raid on the hardest difficulty. Obviously not, but when there's nothing else other than a gear check, then it's a problem. Power management also used to be a thing in the past and it added another layer of complexity. If you're a healer now you can pretty much just roll your face on the keyboard without going out of power.

    Conclusion:
    More mechanics -> YES
    More difficulty tiers -> NO

    Change just for change's sake is usually bad. Stick to what has worked in the past. Please listen to your community, SSG.
    Last edited by Daenirion; Apr 12 2019 at 10:44 AM.
    Server: [DE]Gwaihir, Kinship: Hecki Hecki Pateng

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Daenirion View Post
    They should just keep T3 and add a challenge mode with more engaging mechanics, so that there can be actual progression. Now it's simply a stat check and the ones who play the most and have the best gear will beat the raid first. It's less about skill, coordiantion and teamwork. Anvil T3 was cleared within 30 hours of launch. That is not real progression. Also I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a stat check. You shouldn't be able to waltz in with green questing gear and expect to clear the raid on the hardest difficulty. Obviously not, but when there's nothing else other than a gear check, then it's a problem. Power management also used to be a thing in the past and it added another layer of complexity. If you're a healer now you can pretty much just roll your face on the keyboard without going out of power.

    Conclusion:
    More mechanics -> YES
    More difficulty tiers -> NO

    Change just for change's sake is usually bad. Stick to what has worked in the past. Please listen to your community, SSG.
    Yeah, I completely agree.

    I've said this in another thread a while back, and I think it perfectly sums up the conversation here. The context is that I was responding to a point Cord made on his stream regarding disallowing us from traiting off-spec capstones a few months ago:
    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    One of the best things LOTRO used to do back in its hay-day was that it didn't always follow the "game industry standard". It was innovative and did things differently. Look at the old trait system, the entire Warden class, Fellowship Manoeuvres, etc. If you follow the pattern over the years, a large amount of the criticism LOTRO has received were on changes made that more closely resemble this "game industry standard". What is so bad about being different, and innovating and improving that standard?
    As to what you are saying, I think that keeping t3 isn't the best idea, but I don't see them doing away with it either. If you ask me, the best solution would be to reintroduce challenge mechanics on both t2 and t3, and then have extra mechanics on t3 as well. The challenge component will be the same in both tiers, but the increased damage and extra few mechanics from t3 would make it even more challenging. By having a challenge on t2 though, it allows groups/players to practice to understand what is happening during the challenge. To practice, you can run t2c to practice challenge, and then run t3 (non-challenge) to practice t3 mechanics. Then it'd be a matter of just combining the two strategies. I feel like this would be the most rewarding way to make it so that more casual players can get practice and exposure to the more difficult encounters in the game while allowing players to have opportunities to practice without too heavy of a difficulty curve. Also, it lets them separate the mechanics into two groups, so if they are struggling with one aspect in particular, they can get better at it before throwing a wrench into the works.


    I realize that this will never happen, but a man can dream...

 

 
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