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  1. #26
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    The Walls on id 4 are so unreliable sometimes I know RKs who invested Money just to heal this Boss and now ....Well..If you are unlucky the Walls Spawn so far away it is Impossible to reach them ..better luck (!!!)next time :3

    This is just bad timing to nerf this skill. As I said every healer was Chosen to heal the raid, even though this skill looked op the RK healer wasn't.
    It was not like Minstrels and Beos were banned from raid. Not even close to this.

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Hildilas View Post
    The Walls on id 4 are so unreliable sometimes I know RKs who invested Money just to heal this Boss and now ....Well..If you are unlucky the Walls Spawn so far away it is Impossible to reach them ..better luck (!!!)next time :3

    This is just bad timing to nerf this skill. As I said every healer was Chosen to heal the raid, even though this skill looked op the RK healer wasn't.
    It was not like Minstrels and Beos were banned from raid. Not even close to this.
    It's worse on T3. It's a different mechanic instead of the wall dropping down, and the majority of the time (80%+) we did not have an option to shelter at all when she breathed. Fatestone was the best way to clear it
    .
    Gruid-Level 65 Burglar. Trebon-Level 65 Minstrel. Foilfang-Level 60 Hobbit Warden. Stiric-Level 56 Man Champion.

  3. #28
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    Hehe, thats what we get, when you ask for nerf

    Not even mad, i play this game too long to be suprised...

    Commander Liliam - the Warden
    Evernight

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fasin View Post
    If a tank was taking 10,000 damage per second, fatestone would block 120,000 damage per minute pre nerf, 360,000 damage in 3 minutes. Post nerf it would block 40,000 damage instead of 120,000 over the same 20s, but it also has had its cooldown increased by 50%, meaning it would block 80,000 damage in 3 minutes. a 78% nerf to the effectiveness of fatestone, even ignoring the radius nerf (why would you nerf the radius?).
    This nerf has 100% to do with people ignoring the rng walls on Boss 4. Recuced range means all players would have to stand even closer together...but as nerfed as IT IS now it won't help against rng walls anyways. They did not like that people would not hide behind walls but they did not think about why people are using RKs to ignore them.
    It is because those walls are pure luck and your whole fight might be for nothing If you have bad luck.

  5. #30
    This update completely breaks the class

    We are the most single target focused healer, yet heal for less single target HPS than a Beorning (who outheals us 5 times in terms of raidwide healing)

    We are the most proactive healer, yet lack any mechanism for recovery (proactive healers will make mistakes that reactive healers simply cannot make by design). When a proactive and a reactive healer have the same target HPS the proactive healer needs to be some sort of Nostradamus to just be even with a reactive healers who's just like "oh someone's morale fell - select person, press heal". Proactive healers need more HPS to allow for overhealing on people you stacked HoT that do actually not take damage or stronger cooldowns to recover from unforeseeable situations. After the update we have neither, we are middle of the road in terms of single target HPS (Minstrels have less, but then again they need less because they are reactive, Beos are more reactive as well and still heal for quite a bit more) and by FAR the worst group/AoE healer

    We are a HoT healer yet have no burst heal or other cooldown to save a tank in an environment where even tanks can be almost one shot

    This class is just so horribly broken right now. We had a decent single target healing along with a great cooldown for dire situations that allowed us a spot as a tank healer. Without that cooldown Beos with their burst healing and higher HPS make for better tank healers while at the same time being great raid healers as well (unlike RKs who are completely unable to deal with raid wide AoE damage)


    When a Beo or Mini use group heals they stay focused on the tank and either gain single target HPS or at least barely lose any while simultaniously healing their group up. RKs only group heal on a low CD (Rousing Words) cannot heal a group from the huge damage spikes that occur regularly, cannot be used to stack up Writ of Health as it would need to be cast for 5s every 20s at least and has less than 5k HPS per target. Meaning a tank loses around 20k incoming HPS for those 5s.


    Something needs to be done about this class. If we are a HoT healer we need stronger cooldowns than the other classes whose regular burst heals are just much better at recovering from damage spikes.
    If we are supposed to be the single target healer we should actually excel at that job. Beos outheal us and after the Fate nerf have a better cooldown in Sacrifice than anything we have left as well. We should be the best single target healer and the worst raid healer - but both only by a small margin. After the patch we are not the best single target healer anymore and we are the worst raid healer by a far too big margin. Fate stone covered for the problems of the class (Rousing Words) but those will become apparent pretty soon


    To sum up my hopefully still productive rant:
    We need a single target cooldown to save a tank. Pre HD Wondrous Foreshadowing was great - even though OP (+50% inc heal/-40% inc dmg for 17s every 60s). It should come back in a tuned down version, maybe something like +30% inc heal/-30% inc dmg for 8s every 60-75s
    Rousing Words heals to little and takes FAR too long. Reduce channel time to 3s and apply Writ of Health after 2,5s of channel. Scale the healing so that the AoE healing provided by Rousing Words plus WoH on the fellowship heals for ~85-90% of the group healing of Minstrels and Beos
    Scale EftA and the bubbles up a little.
    Reduce the Animation times on all the annoying skills (Bombastic, Prelude, rune-sign)
    Last edited by Chris91; Feb 13 2019 at 06:42 AM.

  6. #31
    At first, I thought this was just really poor judgement on SSG's part and not really understanding how the class works as a healer in groups. But it's more than that. It's the fact that dozens and dozens of feedback comments from healing RK were ignored, and this change was made to adjust for a bad raid mechanic. That kind of blows my mind. How short-sighted can you get?
    Last edited by Nouri; Feb 13 2019 at 08:22 AM.
    Casinoari - Rank 15 RK
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  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    It’s almost funny...notice how many people immediately cry for more Beorning nerfs to fix their RK.
    Nobody called for nerfs for Beos. What was pointed out is that the Beo has more single target healing than a RK, burstier single target healing (in general sustained healing/damage should always be slightly higher in HPS/DPS than burst due to the extra utility of burst in and of itself) and has a better cooldown for the tank as well. Which are all facts and it should not be that way. The Beo as the strongest AoE healer should not be the strongest single target healer at the same time. Whether that is adressed through Beo nerf or RK buffs does not really matter and also depends on the difficulty of content etc

    Most people are rightfully worried about how healing RKs are treated right now and that they will be in a similiar spot as Minis were before the update. I don't care about Beos tbh, they can keep being OP if RKs can at least get their role as a tank focus healer back

    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    Beo has nothing special to offer a T2 raid group for heals.
    This shows you lack any understanding of how the different healers operate in T2 raid content and what they can and cannot do

    The Beo has the most mobility of all healers, a fellowship wide sprint to help kiting tanks, a phys mit debuff to help hunter/champ, an inc dmg debuff to help all dps, the ability to cleanse stuns of the tank and a 40% dmg debuff on the boss to weaken AoE attacks..while also having to most single target AND AoE healing.

    It is hands down THE best healer right now (yes I have all healers at lvl cap and a direct comparison).

  8. #33

  9. #34
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    Lol. 80% reduction in effectiveness from live, not a single other class change in the notes, and no fixes for RK.

    Meanwhile, Beornings are running wild doing 5x the healing output with 1/3 as many skills. Bears can AOE crit heal for 150k? Better nerf Fates!

    Ridiculous, glad I haven't logged on in a few weeks cause I'd be really unhappy to have spent the last few gearing my RK in the raid only for the class to become even more redundant than it already was, it's not like RK's were taking any spots from any other healer. PVP will be even more of a joke with the nerfed Fates stone also.
    #15skills

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    Secondly, Beo is one of the worst healers currently. Yes, you parse big numbers, wooo. Realistically, the cooldowns on our heals are far too long and it’s far too slow to be reactionary. Rather, it comes down to spamming skills as fast as possible so that you luckily land a heal at the same time a boss crits on the tank. This gives you big numbers. Big numbers don’t help unless there is damage to be healed, and then skills are not properly available to react and heal said damage fast enough.
    Edit to add: I do agree the nerf to fates was overkill. I just found the situation funny how you immediately began complaining about Beo heals again since you don’t understand it.
    80-100k+ crit on a 4.5s cd is "far too long".....LOL ok ^_^
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  11. #36
    This really isn't an RK vs a mini or beo healer. After some changes to minis, I think they're in a better spot than they were, and that's good. I think bear healers have some very unique attributes, and I'm all for them having them. Seems like we had just about hit a sweet spot for balance between healing classes, where no healing class was excluded because they each offered something interesting. And then this.
    Casinoari - Rank 15 RK
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  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    First of all, you don’t understand how the skills work. Most obvious is that piercing roar does not work properly. It’s not 40%. The rest I understand such as bees and armor crush, but that has nothing to do with healing (regarding actually keeping people alive).
    It works exactly the way (almost) every other skill in Lotro works, additively. So obviously if a Boss has bonus damage on a certain attack - let's say 250% - than Piercing Roar will reduce it from 250% to 210%. That's consistent with most other mechanics in LotrO.

    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    Secondly, Beo is one of the worst healers currently. Yes, you parse big numbers, wooo. Realistically, the cooldowns on our heals are far too long and it’s far too slow to be reactionary. Rather, it comes down to spamming skills as fast as possible so that you luckily land a heal at the same time a boss crits on the tank. This gives you big numbers. Big numbers don’t help unless there is damage to be healed, and then skills are not properly available to react and heal said damage fast enough.
    No it isn't. Beo is the fastest healer, all skills are instant and require no build up. Minis and RKs need to induct for most of their skills making them slower and build up their big bursts

    Encouraging Roar has a CD of 4,5s and only has to be used once every 15s to maintain the HoT, meaning it can be used purely reactive - wait for the tank to take damage and use it. You only have to use it proactively if your tank didnt take any damage requiring you to ER in the last 15s

    Minis have the Coda+instant BC which technically has no cooldown but in practice needs to be built up with ballad buffs and anthem. You can get a free one off every 20s with Cry of the Chorus. but more often than that you need to use 3 ballads and an anthem, which leads to a similiar downtime between bursts than Beos

    RKs only have Bombastic Inspiration+Word of Exaltation as compareable burst heal with a cooldown of 21s, otherwise relying purely on HoTs


    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    As an aside...why is mobility the first thing you mention when mobility has no part to play in the raid? There is almost no benefit currently to being mobile due to how stationary the fights are. Further, rush is helpful for the group for #4 phase 2, but otherwise which tank is going to need the 25% movespeed buff that does not help with combat states?

    Edit to add: I do agree the nerf to fates was overkill. I just found the situation funny how you immediately began complaining about Beo heals again since you don’t understand it.
    I didn't mention it in any particular order, I was just making the point that Beos bring a lot more to a raid than pure healing. Minis compare in utility in fights were precombat anthems can be used for most of the time (ie the fight takes 5min or less). RKs have the lowest amount of utility by far


    Again, I was not talking about beos, just using them for comparison. What my point was is that:
    RKs are a proactive, sustained/HoT, single target focused, immobile healer
    proactive healers need more HPS than reactive healers because some HPS is going to be wasted
    sustained healers (and dps) need more HPS(DPS) than burst healers (dps) because burst is a utility in and off itself (dealing with spikes)
    single target focused healers should obviously have more single target HPS than more AoE focused healers
    less mobile classes need more hps(dps) than more mobile ones to account for downtime due to movement
    ->there is no reason why RKs should parse highest on single target given their current class design

  13. #38
    SSG right now don't know how to do mechanics, they just put lots of RNG as the only way to make things harder. If you got something that allow you to ignore certain RNG or allow you to make fight stable or planned: NERF! EXPLOIT!

    You know what SSG incompetency is just shown when in t2-t3 you just reset fights like first boss of anvil endlesly few secs after starting until you get good RNG. Most people I know who completed t3 or even most groups that complete t2 first boss just reset the fight like 20-30 times not until you do things right, they basically do the same thing all the time, they just wait for the RNG to be good and then that's the actual try. Out of 100 tries on 1st boss some kins only gave an actual try on 10 of them maximum.

    Basically SSG just want us to throw a dice and if we get X number: Raid complete! If we get other number...wipe.

  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    Further, I strongly disagree that an RK with HoTs should parse higher than a burst healer. The reason is that the burst heals must be fired constantly, and mechanically for roar HoT you’re encouraged to heal when it’s not needed. This is because of the one-shot end game where HoTs and proactive heals are far stronger than reactionary heals due to the nature of them always being on. They heal the first server tick that damage is taken, versus let’s say encouraging roar where if you’ve just used it, you must wait for 4.5 seconds before using it again. Meantime, what do you do?
    Use your aoe bellow to keep single target tank alive which risks the group heal being on cd?
    Swap to man form for a fast (lol) nature’s mend?
    Yes you are absolutely supposed to use your aoe bellow to keep single target tank alive. The hot healer is giving up all their group healing by only healing the tank, but you want to be able to save your group healing and do the same task?

    Burst group healing is far better than hot group healing by orders of magnitude. That is why Runekeepers have almost exclusively been single target tank healers for so long. It's also why you almost never see two runekeeper healers (with no other healers) in a raid. Because in order for hot healers to be viable versus burst healers, they have to out parse them. It's not difficult to balance it though, burst and hot single target healing should be about the same at max single target output, with hot group healing significantly out parsing burst. Also a classes main single target heal shouldn't be an aoe heal.
    .
    Gruid-Level 65 Burglar. Trebon-Level 65 Minstrel. Foilfang-Level 60 Hobbit Warden. Stiric-Level 56 Man Champion.

  15. #40
    Developer Interview should put your minds at ease:

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...he-Winterstith
    The Black Appendage of Sauron

  16. #41
    This has almost no impact besides the ability to ignore AZ, the amount of crying I have seen on this forum is insane. Bads gonna be bads I guess.

    Yikes this thread.

  17. #42
    Where are my 100 mithril coin spend to purchase another tree trait template ? Where are you little mithril. Please come back....please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thaelon View Post
    This has almost no impact besides the ability to ignore AZ, the amount of crying I have seen on this forum is insane. Bads gonna be bads I guess.

    Yikes this thread.
    Ok i want see it with same raid group mitig before nerf.

  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaelon View Post
    This has almost no impact besides the ability to ignore AZ, the amount of crying I have seen on this forum is insane.
    It will not have any impact in the chances of completing an instance apart from ignoring Absolute Zero from boss 4. But removing the only useful emergency skill that a class without proper rezz got will drop drastically the chances of getting invited to any t2-t3 content as heal rk. Yeah people will just bring minis and beorning as healers now and that's what people is complaining about.
    Else try the following : remove guardian juggernaut, warrior's heart and pledge from half of the guardians and leave the other half with it. Who's gonna invite the nerfed guardian to a raid? This is the same, people will complete the raid still but without heal rk. And the impact in 6 man and 3 man is yet to be seen.
    The problem is the message they send: We NERF a class without even testing or balancing it out and we do not care if it's useless for endgame now. Not even a single blue name response in any of the 4 rk NERF threads in forums.
    RK CAN HEAL THOUGH, I healed Throne, Mordath and every raid in the game but chances a non kin group would invite me as rk healer over a mediocre minstrel are near to 0 even if I can outheal that mini by a factor of 3 in single target and match it aoe. If anything goes wrong... It's gonna be heal rk fault. I'm used to it. Replacing me with a mini during the last years only to wipe even more and to have worse chances of success because RK's can't heal or are worse to minis in a categorical way.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nouri View Post
    Something like this should have been done when the RK rebalance was done. Doing it now, w/o any rebalancing, is just a really poor decision!
    Just like the Rune change a while back. Take stuff away and then drag the feet for several months to very slowly give something back. Note to DEV: Spreadsheets and Whiteboards only give a rough idea. Pay attention to what people who play the class say.
    Member of the Vocal Minority

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    ...
    Naaah wait for the incoming Beo nerf Nerfing ER was only the beginning probably. So we are all going Mini+Mini again.
    + Actually maybe they are going to nerf those guard skills as well. As I understood they do not want these kind of skills in the game anymore. I am also sensing a captains bubble and/or last stand nerf. As well as a LM debuff or healing/water lore magnitute nerf.

    I would not have a problem with this IF they built a game/raid around that concept. But right now there are such high hits and one hitting mechanics that we need those kind of skills. (To complete this post with a warden anecdote: The reason why warden isn't a main tank right now ;D)

    Overall I agree with you of course.

  21. #46
    What most of you don't seem to realise is that Out Fates Entwined was literally making it impossible for developers to balance the damage of enemies properly. You can completely ignore certain mechanics if you simply bring an RK healer to the fight. Of course it had to be nerfed, and as soon as possible. Is it an issue that RKs will then be unwanted in group content as healers? Yes, I would certainly say so. I hope Vastin can muster the time to work on the spec a little bit and make the actual spec itself more rewarding and fun to play.

    As it is, though, the nerf to OFE is entirely justified, and arguing otherwise is simply delusional. Just because there is no immediate buff in other areas doesn't mean that a broken skill should not be fixed. Plain and simple. If anything, the fact that it remained the way it had been for so long was a hilarious oversight on the developers' part, and one that only went unnoticed because the healing itself wasn't as strong relative to minstrels as it is now, relative to minstrels/beornings.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeauxLOTR View Post
    Just like the Rune change a while back. Take stuff away and then drag the feet for several months to very slowly give something back. Note to DEV: Spreadsheets and Whiteboards only give a rough idea. Pay attention to what people who play the class say.
    This is a terrible idea, most people who play the class don't have a clue. Spreadsheets and whiteboards, as you put it, actually give a concrete image of what the class is like and how it performs, or can perform. There is every reason to go by this method, and so far, Vastin has done an excellent job with all the classes he has decided to work on.

    Edit: Another example of an excellent change that the community perceived to be "terrible" was the nerf to Reveal Weakness on burglars. Passively providing +14% incoming damage is utterly ridiculous, and had to be nerfed. Is it an issue that burglars are now less wanted in groups? Yeah, of course. But the skill was broken, and had to be fixed. Whatever comes after, to improve the class, comes down to your feedback. So focus on that, instead of whining about necessary nerfs.
    Last edited by Aeviternus; Feb 14 2019 at 11:25 AM.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
    Also known as Giliodor

  22. #47
    Time to nerf Smouldering Wrath now. Damage is insane compared beorn damage.

  23. #48
    That moment when every class thread becomes a bear thread.


    People should start flagging any bear polluting other class threads posted outside of a Beorning class thread. Its no wonder Devs rarely go past the 1st page of a class thread. All I see for weeks and months is MAH BEAR! MAH BEAR!


    Rune Keeper: The fates stone was OP and this remedy is abit reaching in length. The fallout for the presence of RK's is already noticeable.
    Università degli Studi di Roma "La Sapienza" Sapienza University of Rome

    Graduate PhD con lode Scienze della Politica

  24. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    What most of you don't seem to realise is that Out Fates Entwined was literally making it impossible for developers to balance the damage of enemies properly. You can completely ignore certain mechanics if you simply bring an RK healer to the fight. Of course it had to be nerfed, and as soon as possible. Is it an issue that RKs will then be unwanted in group content as healers? Yes, I would certainly say so. I hope Vastin can muster the time to work on the spec a little bit and make the actual spec itself more rewarding and fun to play.

    As it is, though, the nerf to OFE is entirely justified, and arguing otherwise is simply delusional. Just because there is no immediate buff in other areas doesn't mean that a broken skill should not be fixed. Plain and simple. If anything, the fact that it remained the way it had been for so long was a hilarious oversight on the developers' part, and one that only went unnoticed because the healing itself wasn't as strong relative to minstrels as it is now, relative to minstrels/beornings.



    This is a terrible idea, most people who play the class don't have a clue. Spreadsheets and whiteboards, as you put it, actually give a concrete image of what the class is like and how it performs, or can perform. There is every reason to go by this method, and so far, Vastin has done an excellent job with all the classes he has decided to work on.

    Edit: Another example of an excellent change that the community perceived to be "terrible" was the nerf to Reveal Weakness on burglars. Passively providing +14% incoming damage is utterly ridiculous, and had to be nerfed. Is it an issue that burglars are now less wanted in groups? Yeah, of course. But the skill was broken, and had to be fixed. Whatever comes after, to improve the class, comes down to your feedback. So focus on that, instead of whining about necessary nerfs.
    Yeah by that logic I'd say yellow line anthems should be toggle skills that can be only used if you remain in yellow line. So anthem buffing pre-fight shouldn't exists. Basically that is a buff to damage of the group of +35%, +10% inc healing and some attack duration bonus. That is clearly not intended and makes the dps races harder to balance. Just please SSG completely remove anthems from yellow line until you can implement it in a way you can only use it in yellow and they disappear if you retreat.

    Ah, also if possible you should nerf mini bubbles. They are strong atm and allow groups with 0 mits to survive hits like belly smash of first boss of the raid.
    And it's is urgent that you delete all in combat rezzes from game or make them have like 10-15 mins cooldown minimum, they just allow for people to go glass cannon and die sometimes or even skip pulls by dying and then accepting a rezz at the boss room in instances such as Thikil Gundu, clearly allowing for an unintended tactic. Also in combat rezzes and the amount of them you get are clearly a way to let people die to some attacks instead of doing proper tactics and learning how to play.

    This is exactly how you sound on your post. All classes have something broken that makes them OP and desirable in certain situations, burgs were desirable with reveal weakness and rks were desirable due to fates stone, minstrels were desirable in raid for anthems before the fight even when their healing was so nerfed (which btw I bet you cried a lot about it until they fixed it in only a couple months after, I'd be really surprised if they take less than a year to fix heal rk now).
    Stop trying to justify this destruction of an entire previously viable role. If fates entwined was OP they should have fixed it in a class balance, with proper testing, and no, they didn't nerf stone because it was OP, they just nerfed it because Boss 4 of raid T3 have an RNG component that was basically have bad luck and the whole raid gets oneshot no matter what you do or even if you do everything fine, so people brought 2 heal rk to survive that and just eliminate this RNG. It's not even a mechanic, it's just pure RNG.

    Seriously devs, WE NEED AN ANSWER to certain questions:
    Do SSG devs consider RK should be able to compete for a main healer role or it's a role exclusive to minstrels in your plans?
    Do SSG devs consider Guards should be the only class with a main tanking spot in raids?
    Do SSG devs consider 80% of all specs in game only useful for having a fun time questing and that basically only useful traits in raid will be yellow LM, yellow burg, red hunter and rk, red warden, red and yellow captains and blue minstrels? (thus ignoring entire classes in it)
    Last edited by Kander; Feb 14 2019 at 02:05 PM.

  25. #50
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    120 hits: RKs get some weird scaling and actually seem viable as an ST healer for the first time in several years, albeit fighting bugs and attack duration.

    3 months later: Bears become wildly powerful. RK gets nerfed. People who main Beorning come to this thread to tell all the RKs who's class just got made redundant that we're overreacting.

    Kek. It'll be years before anything meaningful changes for RK and it won't be any of what we've made list after list about, it'll be 2-3 minor tweaks whilst glaring things like BI's attack duration go ignored. What a joke.
    #15skills

 

 
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