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  1. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    This isn’t hyperbole. Tanks do regularly get hit for 100k or more when they have capped mits (75%), store scroll (-10%inc), SoS, LM lores up, and more.

    A devastating hit for 150k followed by 100k is pretty lethal if healers can’t keep up.
    I never said the magnitude of the hits is a hyperbole. I was talking about the inability to keep a tank alive without pre-nerf OFE.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
    Also known as Giliodor

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    First and foremost, if that is true, then T3 would be tuned incorrectly. If it would be mandatory to take a healing RK, just so that the tank wouldn't die from sheer damage, the damage inside the raid is too high. However, this is probably just a hyperbole, and thus irrelevant.

    Secondly, if the healing on RK is lacking, then healing should be buffed to compensate for the fix to OFE. That doesn't change that fixing OFE was the right thing to do. Putting down a Runestone that makes the whole group immortal for 20 seconds is incredibly bad design, and removing it should indeed be the very first change in a series of changes to healing RKs.

    Lastly, if a bubble is applied right as heavy tank damage is coming in, then the -10% incoming damage still applies to the full hit, making it incredibly useful, as a matter of fact. You just need to use it properly. Just like you now need to use OFE properly. You can no longer rely on the crutch that was pre-fix OFE. If you find that RKs are now in a desperate situation, you're totally free to request buffs to the healing. But requesting that OFE not get fixed it simply laughable. The ability was clearly broken, and it's good that it is now just powerful, rather than gamebreaking.
    -i would like to see any rune keeper who is able to keep the tank alive without the pre-nerf on tier 3 then, if you found one please tell me so i can ask him for tips.

    - if you look up in RK forums, you'd see that literally 90% of people were already asking for fate nerfs, but you can't just nerf a skill where the entire class depends on it do the latest content aka tier 3 raid without buffing heals. everyone agrees that pre nerf fates was probably the most broken skill in game, but it was the only reason that RK is viable in tier 3. of course it needed at nerf, but nerfing it alone without buffing heals will just kill the healing RK.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkadien View Post
    and where is the problem when the tank got 300-400k moral and rk,mini+lm are doing 50-100k hps together?
    here is the surprise, you actually use 2 tanks in the raid, so most of the time each healer will be focusing only 1 tank. and can you show me a tank with 400k morale please ? cause thats new to me.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unknowned View Post
    here is the surprise, you actually use 2 tanks in the raid, so most of the time each healer will be focusing only 1 tank. and can you show me a tank with 400k morale please ? cause thats new to me.
    Ýou dont always need 2 tanks.
    Specially t2 you can do the whole raid all 4 bosses with 2 tanks.
    For t3 you need for boss 1+3 a second tank and boss 2 is depending on the dwarf setup.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    We have gotten a bit off topic, the point is: can an RK healer keep up with the minimum 35k ST HPS (assuming 2 healing 1 tank) or so while also healing eye targets and Vethug’s puddles?
    in my opinion rk heal+1 other heal(rk/beo/mini) can totally do that on t2+t3.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkadien View Post
    Ýou dont always need 2 tanks.
    Specially t2 you can do the whole raid all 4 bosses with 2 tanks.
    For t3 you need for boss 1+3 a second tank and boss 2 is depending on the dwarf setup.
    that is not true. on tier 3 you get 6 dwarves so i doubt there will be any comp on any week where you use 1 tank, and even if it happened...on tier 2 you just zerg ingor asap before he 1 shot the tank with the tier 10 debuff, on tier 3 you don't have time to zerg ingor before the debuff reaches tier 10 so you'll have aggro swap ^_^. so you def need 2 tanks for boss 1,2,3,4.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unknowned View Post
    that is not true. on tier 3 you get 6 dwarves so i doubt there will be any comp on any week where you use 1 tank, and even if it happened...on tier 2 you just zerg ingor asap before he 1 shot the tank with the tier 10 debuff, on tier 3 you don't have time to zerg ingor before the debuff reaches tier 10 so you'll have aggro swap ^_^. so you def need 2 tanks for boss 1,2,3,4.
    Ofc you can zerg ingor on T3.
    just look at the videos of t3 who got published.
    And specially on t2 you dont need 2 tanks.
    Same as you dont "need" a second tank for t3 boss 4.

    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    But not RK+RK, see there’s the problem, the RK becomes a handicap and requires another healer type to pick it up.
    For T2 2 heal rks can easy heal the whole raid.
    For T3 you might be correct but depends on the boss aswell.
    In my opinion a few bosses on t3 are that easy it doesnt matter what healers you take.
    The raid is a joke in terms of difficulty and soon a few blue captains will heal this on T3

  8. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaelon View Post
    So your base premise is that one skill is not better than three combined, therefore it isn't the best? Ignoring that even with the abyss set those three are not better than fates, that's quite a foolish stance to take.
    No sorry, I just said that if the "best emergency skill in game" is less than what another class in the same role can keep nearly 100% uptime maybe it's being a liar calling it so:
    Inspire fellows: -4%
    Coda: -10%
    SoS x3: 3% mit.
    On a guard with 70% buffed mits, that 3% mit is an effective 10% reduction in incoming damage.
    So yeah, basically fates entwined stone is not only not the best emergency skill in game, it's also worse than what a normal minstrel rotation gives, so it's not 3 emergency skills of the mini combined, it's literally what a mini passively does while doing proper heal rotation.
    "My three, 1L bottles of water amount to more than my 2.5L bottle, therefore my 2.5L bottle is not the largest bottle I have".
    Not really but if you were going to "buy" water (basically what you do when picking a class for raid), and you could choose between 3 1L bottle vs one 2L bottle for the same price...and also the 1L bottles got better properties, does it matter at all?

    BTW either you are not paying attention when you read my replies or you're twisting what I say just to justify something different. I'm not asking for any kind of nerf to mini, I'm not asking to have again fates entwined, what I'm asking is to just turn fates entwined into a 10% ddamage reduction and make it 100% uptime like healing runestone and then give a proper cooldown to rk, or fix bubbles to make them meaningful, maybe bubbles shouldn't be bubbles. And now that I talk about bubbles, 10% damage reduction is only while bubble exists, so it's basically 1 hit and that buff is gone too, 10% reduction for a single hit with cooldown... it's not an emergency skill at all.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaelon View Post
    4. It is undisputedly the best defensive or "emergency skill" in the game, post nerf.
    Litany of Defiance
    In Harms Way

    Those are just two random AOE ones off the top of my head that are wildly better, the fact that OFE now has a 7m range makes it effectively single target since in the raid you use it on the tank or you don't use it, meaning that skills like Shield of the Dunedain are infinitely superior, To Arms ST buff is 75% of the way there lol. Minis have 100% uptime buffs that approach the effectiveness of OFE.

    Hell, even group-wide To Arms from a cappy is nearly there. What are you smoking that a 20% damage reduction with a 7m range is the best defensive or emergency skill in the game? Lmfao. 40% reduction is great for the RK, if it was ever needed which it isn't because the RK only ever dies if the tank is dead at which point Fates is doing nothing for you, nerfed or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thaelon View Post
    Rk bubbles also come with -inc damage among other things. The incoming damage more than makes up for the difference in raw numbers, which by the way are less than you think in most cases, especially on dps classes
    For one hit, the vast majority of the time resulting in an add or random AOE wiping the bubble for the tank to immediately be slammed for a 100k hit to the face. This would apply if the bubble damage reduction buff stayed after the bubble popped but it's current implementation is pathetic and only viable in the most predictable of situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    Secondly, if the healing on RK is lacking, then healing should be buffed to compensate for the fix to OFE.
    Ayyyyyy 4 pages in and you're starting to get it! Congrats.

    Nobody competent thinks Fates wasn't very very powerful and obviously in some content, game-breaking, but nobody competent also thinks that it should've been nerfed without any other changes/fixes/tweaks to the class given how poorly it performs compared to other healers and how crippled it is by certain mechanics, see:

    CC spam (Silence/Disarm) - Minstrel immune, Bear unaffected by either, correct me if I'm wrong?
    Moving fights - Minstrel mobility still very good, Bear literally never has to stop moving, but can choose to for insanity-tier healing from maul
    Burst damage - Minstrel ability to overcome burst is very good, Bear is hilariously over-compensating in this field
    AOE damage - Minstrel got nerfed here but is still competent, Bear... lmfao
    Interrupts - Minstrel bread and butter skills don't go on CD when interrupted, Bear.... Lol, this is becoming a bit insane
    Induction setback from hits - Minstrel has 50% uptime setback immunity, Bear... Has one induction with a microscopic cast time...

    The only thing right now that Bears struggle with is consistent big hits and simply because there aren't actually enough heals since the increase to certain cooldowns, a change which I think was absolutely stupid, they should've just reduced the numbers these heals actually put out.
    #15skills

  10. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    No sorry, I just said that if the "best emergency skill in game" is less than what another class in the same role can keep nearly 100% uptime maybe it's being a liar calling it so:
    Inspire fellows: -4%
    Coda: -10%
    SoS x3: 3% mit.
    On a guard with 70% buffed mits, that 3% mit is an effective 10% reduction in incoming damage.
    So yeah, basically fates entwined stone is not only not the best emergency skill in game, it's also worse than what a normal minstrel rotation gives, so it's not 3 emergency skills of the mini combined, it's literally what a mini passively does while doing proper heal rotation.
    Again, that logic isn't sound. You're arguing that because (in your mind) another class can combo skills together to equal a cooldown, that cooldown can't be the best cooldown because the previous classes combo is equal to it. A combo is not a single ability, therefore it can never be used to dispute how strong a single ability is unless that combo directly impacts said cooldown.

    The math isn't sound either. Hint: Not all mits are created equal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    Not really but if you were going to "buy" water (basically what you do when picking a class for raid), and you could choose between 3 1L bottle vs one 2L bottle for the same price...and also the 1L bottles got better properties, does it matter at all?
    If all the water I need is 2L, why would I care how much extra water I buy in this one time purchase? I'm not going to use the other .5L unless someone else is bad and forgets their water and I need to cover them, get it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    BTW either you are not paying attention when you read my replies or you're twisting what I say just to justify something different. I'm not asking for any kind of nerf to mini, I'm not asking to have again fates entwined, what I'm asking is to just turn fates entwined into a 10% ddamage reduction and make it 100% uptime like healing runestone and then give a proper cooldown to rk, or fix bubbles to make them meaningful, maybe bubbles shouldn't be bubbles. And now that I talk about bubbles, 10% damage reduction is only while bubble exists, so it's basically 1 hit and that buff is gone too, 10% reduction for a single hit with cooldown... it's not an emergency skill at all.
    Healing on rk would have to be nerfed in order to compensate for a perma -10% incoming damage toggle. As for bubbles, the -incoming damage applies for the next hit (if that hit is enough to deplete the bubble), so for example if you used the raid bubble just prior to belly flop from b1 anvil, you would gain approx 10k additional reduction in damage or more on every single person that you bubbled resulting in an overall stronger bubble than anything minstrel has.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unknowned View Post
    if you look up in RK forums, you'd see that literally 90% of people were already asking for fate nerfs, but you can't just nerf a skill where the entire class depends on it do the latest content aka tier 3 raid without buffing heals. everyone agrees that pre nerf fates was probably the most broken skill in game, but it was the only reason that RK is viable in tier 3. of course it needed at nerf, but nerfing it alone without buffing heals will just kill the healing RK.
    If the only thing keeping your heal rk relevant was pre-nerf fates, get a better heal rk.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaelon View Post
    Again, that logic isn't sound. You're arguing that because (in your mind) another class can combo skills together to equal a cooldown, that cooldown can't be the best cooldown because the previous classes combo is equal to it. A combo is not a single ability, therefore it can never be used to dispute how strong a single ability is unless that combo directly impacts said cooldown..
    You seem to be really struggling here....?

    He's saying how good is a cooldown if it's no better than buffs applied with 100% uptime by just through your ordinary rotation if you're another class like a Minstrel?

    If I have a cake every day, and you have a cake every 10 days, but your cake is 5% bigger than my daily cake, who has more cake at the end of the 10 day period?
    #15skills

  12. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    Litany of Defiance
    In Harms Way

    Those are just two random AOE ones off the top of my head that are wildly better, the fact that OFE now has a 7m range makes it effectively single target since in the raid you use it on the tank or you don't use it, meaning that skills like Shield of the Dunedain are infinitely superior, To Arms ST buff is 75% of the way there lol. Minis have 100% uptime buffs that approach the effectiveness of OFE.

    Hell, even group-wide To Arms from a cappy is nearly there. What are you smoking that a 20% damage reduction with a 7m range is the best defensive or emergency skill in the game? Lmfao. 40% reduction is great for the RK, if it was ever needed which it isn't because the RK only ever dies if the tank is dead at which point Fates is doing nothing for you, nerfed or not.
    Litany takes the damage reduced on the group and applies it to the tank, that isn't an actual reduction in damage at all. IHW is effectively the same, you can combo it with LS but that would be comparing 2 skills to 1 and like I've already said, illogical.

    The range seems to be a recurring theme, are people not able to move within range? Do their characters get rooted as soon as the rk uses fates? Is the heal rk unable to place the stone in a place that both the raid and tanks are able to reach in time? Does the stone go to a fixed location out of reach of all but the tank of the games choice at the time?

    Nearly is not equal. Defensives are to reduce damage, not necessarily death. A 40% damage reduction on anyone is extremely powerful, close to the dwarf racial which on it's own makes almost any class that can be a dwarf, should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    For one hit, the vast majority of the time resulting in an add or random AOE wiping the bubble for the tank to immediately be slammed for a 100k hit to the face. This would apply if the bubble damage reduction buff stayed after the bubble popped but it's current implementation is pathetic and only viable in the most predictable of situations.
    There is no such thing as a random aoe, all aoes come from a certain place at a certain time and usually with obvious tells, if you are unable to read these tells and time your abilities correctly that isn't the games fault.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    You seem to be really struggling here....?

    He's saying how good is a cooldown if it's no better than buffs applied with 100% uptime by just through your ordinary rotation if you're another class like a Minstrel?

    If I have a cake every day, and you have a cake every 10 days, but your cake is 5% bigger than my daily cake, who has more cake at the end of the 10 day period?
    I've known for a long time that mathematics isn't a strength of yours, so bear with me while I attempt to help you understand this.

    IF is -4% incoming damage (base mits).
    Coda is -10% incoming damage (base mits)
    SoS is -3% physical/tactical mitigation (additional mits).

    These mitigations are not equal. Think mastery vs base damage, a 20% damage bonus as a set bonus can actually result in less than 5% additional damage because of the way the stats interact.

    If every 10 days is a birthday of someone I know, but you don't know anyone who has a birthday over those 10 days, I have some happy friends/family, you have an extra 50 lbs.

  13. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaelon View Post
    The range seems to be a recurring theme, are people not able to move within range? Do their characters get rooted as soon as the rk uses fates? Is the heal rk unable to place the stone in a place that both the raid and tanks are able to reach in time? Does the stone go to a fixed location out of reach of all but the tank of the games choice at the time?
    Ok clearly you don't play heal rk. If you ignore for example mechanics like knockbacks or fears, and ignore all the problems with ground targetted skills in certain floor surfaces... 7 m is just an "I have to move back a bit to position a group of 7 enemies facing away from group because they moved a bit" situation... Pretty common for tanks to need to move slightly. And certainly 7m is not enough for tank AND group to take advantage of it at the same time in nearly 90% of fights because as you know melee range on a light armour or medium armour in a fight with multiple enemies in which aggro can be lost for an instant on any moment means if you're 30m away tank can get aggro back before dps gets hit, if you're right behind enemies you just get oneshot before anything can save you...

    Nearly is not equal. Defensives are to reduce damage, not necessarily death. A 40% damage reduction on anyone is extremely powerful, close to the dwarf racial which on it's own makes almost any class that can be a dwarf, should be.
    If a tank is receiving 30k HPS from LM + healer, and suddenly his morale drop and need to use an emergency skill because he starts getting from 28 to 35k TPS, reducing that 35k to 32k would mean tank dies anyways after 10-15 secs, a good emergency skill should allow you to stabilize a fight when it gets out of control due to a mechanic or a minor mistake, 20% damage reduction is not doing that job, simple as. It's useful but not an useful emergency skill.

    I've known for a long time that mathematics isn't a strength of yours, so bear with me while I attempt to help you understand this.

    IF is -4% incoming damage (base mits).
    Coda is -10% incoming damage (base mits)
    SoS is -3% physical/tactical mitigation (additional mits).

    These mitigations are not equal. Think mastery vs base damage, a 20% damage bonus as a set bonus can actually result in less than 5% additional damage because of the way the stats interact.
    Ok let's put mathematics to test because I think it's your own weak point so far (apart from understanding how the game works or how a class that you don't even play works):

    A proper geared tank, with decent mits and t2 both sets of mits (4% tact and 2% phys extra mits if combining medium+heavy tank gear). And I'm considering guards because unfortunately they are the only true main tanks in this game:
    Guard then got tome of defence as a base, got 72% physical and 74% tactical mits after fortification buff.
    Mini as you said got those buffs, RK got fates entwined and for the funs we'll consider fates entwined stone had 100% uptime which for you will be absurdly OP.
    With mini heal: a 500k base damage skill would go through mits: in this case 74/72 +3% both with SoS, so it would turn into a hit of: 125k if physical and 115k if tactical. Then apply the 10% and 4% from coda and IF and the 10% from tome of defence, all multiplicative: 89424 damage taken if tactical and 97200 if physical.
    With rk with 100% uptime new fates entwined stone: you get same hit, after mits it's: 140k if physical and 130k if tactical. Now damage reduction of: 10% from tome and 20% from stone: 93600 damage if tactical and 100800 damage if physical.

    And woah, surprise! mini reduces more damage on the tank than a rk would do with new version of fates entwined if it had a 100% uptime. Now consider stone actually is up only 20% of the time and tell me without laughing that OFE is a really good emergency skill now.

    PS: As I see how you're going to post in this and claim bull#### about this calculations and stuff here comes the detailed math calcs procedure:

    Mits: formula is: Base damage*(1-M) where M is mit in the form of 74%=74/100=0.74. Any buff applied to mitigations is additive in this M value.
    Damage reduction: it's multiplicative between all buffs so it works like: T*(1-A)*(1-B)*(1-C)...*(1-N) Where A, B, C... are the % of damage reduction and T is the total damage AFTER mits.

    If you don't believe me just test those numbers wherever you want in game. You will see they are true.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaelon View Post
    If the only thing keeping your heal rk relevant was pre-nerf fates, get a better heal rk.
    i have done what is considered the hardest content right now - anvil t3- on healing RK, and im saying yes RK heals alone after fate nerfs won't be good enough to make you heal at anymore. if you think you are better then sure show me how you did anvil t3 on your healing rk after the fate nerf oh wait you probably never tried tier 3 even.

  15. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    If you ignore for example mechanics like knockbacks or fears, and ignore all the problems with ground targetted skills in certain floor surfaces... 7 m is just an "I have to move back a bit to position a group of 7 enemies facing away from group because they moved a bit" situation... Pretty common for tanks to need to move slightly. And certainly 7m is not enough for tank AND group to take advantage of it at the same time in nearly 90% of fights because as you know melee range on a light armour or medium armour in a fight with multiple enemies in which aggro can be lost for an instant on any moment means if you're 30m away tank can get aggro back before dps gets hit, if you're right behind enemies you just get oneshot before anything can save you...
    So a couple things, firstly let's assume that 7m is too small (which it's quite obvious I disagree and have supplied many reasons why), it was previously 10m and no complaints were heard. Am I to take this to assume that 3m is less than the knockback/fear distance of these mechanics you're referencing? What knockback (besides beorning) is less than 3m?

    Next, you mention that ranged for some reason must stand away from the mobs, which is just incorrect, in fact in most cases it is a positive if ranged are in melee. If your tanks are losing aggro, that isn't a positioning issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    If a tank is receiving 30k HPS from LM + healer, and suddenly his morale drop and need to use an emergency skill because he starts getting from 28 to 35k TPS, reducing that 35k to 32k would mean tank dies anyways after 10-15 secs, a good emergency skill should allow you to stabilize a fight when it gets out of control due to a mechanic or a minor mistake, 20% damage reduction is not doing that job, simple as. It's useful but not an useful emergency skill.
    Are you one of these people that take HPS and TPS as the only factors separating life and death? You do realise that damage spikes happen and they aren't accurately represented by a TPS parse, right? That is what the majority of your issue is, I don't think you aren't able to separate those concepts and realise that TPS isn't the actual amount of damage you are taking every second of the parse, which results in you severely under appreciating cooldowns that reduce damage temporarily.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    Ok let's put mathematics to test because I think it's your own weak point so far
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    a 500k base damage skill would go through mits: in this case 74/72, so it would turn into a hit of: 140k if physical and 130k if tactical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    If you don't believe me just test those numbers wherever you want in game. You will see they are true.
    Unless your game client has different mathematical rules to everywhere else on earth, yikes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    Ok clearly you don't play heal rk.
    You keep saying this yet I stated that I do and have, and continue to show my knowledge of the spec. Logic doesn't seem to be a strength of yours but this is getting sad...
    Quote Originally Posted by Unknowned View Post
    i have done what is considered the hardest content right now - anvil t3- on healing RK, and im saying yes RK heals alone after fate nerfs won't be good enough to make you heal at anymore. if you think you are better then sure show me how you did anvil t3 on your healing rk after the fate nerf oh wait you probably never tried tier 3 even.
    So you claim that heal rk does not have enough healing to be able to heal any of the anvil t3 bosses? Do you have any evidence of this other than anecdotal?

  16. #91
    This got really embarrassing, really quickly. First of all, just to get it out of the way

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    Ayyyyyy 4 pages in and you're starting to get it! Congrats.
    I never claimed anything else.

    But this is where the hilarity truly ensues;

    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    No sorry, I just said that if the "best emergency skill in game" is less than what another class in the same role can keep nearly 100% uptime maybe it's being a liar calling it so:
    Inspire fellows: -4%
    Coda: -10%
    SoS x3: 3% mit.
    On a guard with 70% buffed mits, that 3% mit is an effective 10% reduction in incoming damage.
    So yeah, basically fates entwined stone is not only not the best emergency skill in game, it's also worse than what a normal minstrel rotation gives, so it's not 3 emergency skills of the mini combined, it's literally what a mini passively does while doing proper heal rotation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    Minis have 100% uptime buffs that approach the effectiveness of OFE.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    You seem to be really struggling here....?

    He's saying how good is a cooldown if it's no better than buffs applied with 100% uptime by just through your ordinary rotation if you're another class like a Minstrel?

    If I have a cake every day, and you have a cake every 10 days, but your cake is 5% bigger than my daily cake, who has more cake at the end of the 10 day period?
    Both of you are still claiming that it is the same as a minstrel's buffs. This is utterly ridiculous. It can be easily shown with an example. Say that a group takes 200 damage per second in a boss fight. Every 90 seconds, a big burst of 500 damage per second comes in for 10 seconds. How much damage does a minstrel reduce, assuming the 4.4% figure you gave?
    (200*90+500*10)*0.044*6=6,072
    How much damage does an RK reduce with OFE?
    500*10*0.2*5+500*10*0.4=7,000

    During the spike damage:
    500*10*0.044*6=1,320 for minstrels
    500*10*0.2*5+500*10*0.4=7,000 for OFE

    OFE reduced more damage. Not only that, it reduced damage at a point in the fight where it actually mattered. The other parts of the fight are trivial, simple healing is enough to deal with it. That's the whole point. The fact that both of you are still trying to compare the potency of OFE to a minstrel's buffs is simply laughable, and you have to admit that you're wrong, plain and simple. I did indeed set up the ideal scenario for OFE, just so that you get the point. Incoming damage is trivial throughout most of the fight, you only need damage reduction at the points in the fight where it matters. You can't just average it all out and call it a day. That's not how it works at all. Doing so just shows that you lack the understanding to talk on this topic in the first place. For some reason, I don't think that will deter you from continuing to do it, however, and we'll just see more ridiculous examples that are easily debunked.


    Arguing that a 20% damage reduction is useless, as you did previously, is pure insanity. 20% easily makes the difference between life and death. You cannot honestly claim that the current version of OFE is "useless" in any sense of the word. It's a very powerful groupwide damage reduction that is going to be much more effective than any minstrel's buffs, when used properly.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
    Also known as Giliodor

  17. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaelon View Post
    So a couple things, firstly let's assume that 7m is too small (which it's quite obvious I disagree and have supplied many reasons why), it was previously 10m and no complaints were heard. Am I to take this to assume that 3m is less than the knockback/fear distance of these mechanics you're referencing? What knockback (besides beorning) is less than 3m?
    No, I even said before than 10 were in most of the fights a tank/melee exclusive and the radius if anything after this nerf should have beeen doubled to make it a reliable group wide skill (inspire fellows, rousing words, rune of restoration, triumphant spirit, fellowship heart all have better radius than the previus 10m, reducing radius was even a bigger offense).


    Are you one of these people that take HPS and TPS as the only factors separating life and death? You do realise that damage spikes happen and they aren't accurately represented by a TPS parse, right? That is what the majority of your issue is, I don't think you aren't able to separate those concepts and realise that TPS isn't the actual amount of damage you are taking every second of the parse, which results in you severely under appreciating cooldowns that reduce damage temporarily.
    TPS is an average in combat analysis not basic tps each second, but that's not what I was meaning I mean that if you were like exactly healing the tank the right amount to keep it alive and some common buff like well fed buff in boss1 or an extra wave of adds or something else that increase damage dealt to the tank by 30-40% which is not a weird thing, mini can use fS Heart, triunphant, bubble and such to gain some time till all stabilize, rk stone won't make that difference, what you heal in your normal rotation is what you heal in emergency situations, only difference is that we had a stone that allowed us to reduce drastically the damage received to the tank for few secs while mini got skills to allow it to heal considerably more to the tank for few seconds. 20% stone just won't change tank dead into tank not dead, 60% did. If problem of stone was it being aoe then maybe the thing should have been give back our old wondrous foreshadowing for the tank only, that's the complain nobody seem to understand if they didn't play rk, the OP part of the stone was its aoe component, not the magnitude and now we have noone of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus
    Both of you are still claiming that it is the same as a minstrel's buffs. This is utterly ridiculous. It can be easily shown with an example. Say that a group takes 200 damage per second in a boss fight. Every 90 seconds, a big burst of 500 damage per second comes in for 10 seconds. How much damage does a minstrel reduce, assuming the 4.4% figure you gave?
    (200*90+500*10)*0.044*6=6,072
    How much damage does an RK reduce with OFE?
    500*10*0.2*5+500*10*0.4=7,000

    During the spike damage:
    500*10*0.044*6=1,320 for minstrels
    500*10*0.2*5+500*10*0.4=7,000 for OFE

    OFE reduced more damage. Not only that, it reduced damage at a point in the fight where it actually mattered. The other parts of the fight are trivial, simple healing is enough to deal with it. That's the whole point. The fact that both of you are still trying to compare the potency of OFE to a minstrel's buffs is simply laughable, and you have to admit that you're wrong, plain and simple. I did indeed set up the ideal scenario for OFE, just so that you get the point. Incoming damage is trivial throughout most of the fight, you only need damage reduction at the points in the fight where it matters. You can't just average it all out and call it a day. That's not how it works at all. Doing so just shows that you lack the understanding to talk on this topic in the first place. For some reason, I don't think that will deter you from continuing to do it, however, and we'll just see more ridiculous examples that are easily debunked.


    Arguing that a 20% damage reduction is useless, as you did previously, is pure insanity. 20% easily makes the difference between life and death. You cannot honestly claim that the current version of OFE is "useless" in any sense of the word. It's a very powerful groupwide damage reduction that is going to be much more effective than any minstrel's buffs, when used properly.
    First you forget its narrow radius makes OFE a nearly single target exclusive skill. Second you're ignoring what I said just above, the point is not the group reduction what makes rk not viable, it's the tank. Change those calculations into single target because clearly 7m radius is nearly to impossible to use in both tank AND group, so you always use it on tank now.

    I don't know where I gave the 4.4% figure you use. I gave 10% from coda and 4% from inspire and 3% mits from soliloqy. I was considering tank incoming damage which is what matters because every dps heal with rev mark way more than what a healer can do and LM/Burg/captain will just survive in nearly all fights with just a writ of health due to having 150k morale pools.

    You can't just take AOE effect of a skill that in nearly all fights cannot reach tank AND group at the same time. (You know this raid of anvil isnt' the only instance in this game, and even in anvil you can use stone for both tank and group only in boss 2 and 4.

    I'll try to be constructive then: Give back our old skills and completely remove the concept of the fates entwined stone. Give toggle skill of OFE (10% damage reduction to everyone in 20m radius and immunity to setback from inductions to heal rk), and then give old wondrous foreshadowing for 50% Less inc damage and 40% more inc healing 20s duration 1 min cd ONLY for single target. It was more balanced, it was a true emergency skill and was what we should have never been taken away. RK healer need a complete rework though but some quick fixes like these should be more than enough to make it equal healer to minstrel again in raid content. And ofc reduce rousing words duration to half and increase the frecuency of the heals in it (each 0.5s instead of each 1s) basically making it same heal amount with a condensed amount of time but with same cooldown.

    Still I think I'll just answer to no more posts of you two, clearly you're biased or something and judging by your replies I'd say you're not even reading or trying to understand what I posted, you just see some numbers and take asumptions or conclusions of things I didn't even say.
    And well, this whole thread is pointless since I doubt any single dev did read this thread at all nor do they care about their class balance as soon as they can milk our wallets for more keys and P2W mechanics and not having a single blue name response on this, not a single day of testing, no feedback, no interest from developers on how we find this change are just clear examples that prove that they just don't care about community, they know their game is dying and they're just trying to take the most money out of playerbase instead of actually trying to revive it.
    Last edited by Kander; Feb 16 2019 at 10:22 AM.

  18. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    First you forget its narrow radius makes OFE a nearly single target exclusive skill. Second you're ignoring what I said just above, the point is not the group reduction what makes rk not viable, it's the tank. Change those calculations into single target because clearly 7m radius is nearly to impossible to use in both tank AND group, so you always use it on tank now.
    False. It's easy to communicate to your group that you will be using it, and as such, it's easy for the majority of the group to take advantage of it. Pretending otherwise is just foolish. Movement is barely a factor in LotRO PvE.

    I don't know where I gave the 4.4% figure you use. I gave 10% from coda and 4% from inspire and 3% mits from soliloqy. I was considering tank incoming damage which is what matters because every dps heal with rev mark way more than what a healer can do and LM/Burg/captain will just survive in nearly all fights with just a writ of health due to having 150k morale pools.
    Well, it's right here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    So over those 90s it's an average of 4'4% damage reduction in total damage received, it's the same as inspire fellows.
    I assumed that the .4% extra was factoring in the SoS mit buff somehow. If it didn't, let's just assume that it does now.

    You can't just take AOE effect of a skill that in nearly all fights cannot reach tank AND group at the same time. (You know this raid of anvil isnt' the only instance in this game, and even in anvil you can use stone for both tank and group only in boss 2 and 4.
    Again, the same thing. Just watch this and tell me more about how movement intensive these fights are. Honestly, most of the movement I saw in there was very brief, the fights are almost entirely static. Please stop pretending you actually have a point here. You don't. It's easy for the whole group to utilise the runestone, and if you don't, that's down to poor positioning.

    I'll try to be constructive then: Give back our old skills and completely remove the concept of the fates entwined stone. Give toggle skill of OFE (10% damage reduction to everyone in 20m radius and immunity to setback from inductions to heal rk), and then give old wondrous foreshadowing for 50% Less inc damage and 40% more inc healing 20s duration 1 min cd ONLY for single target. It was more balanced, it was a true emergency skill and was what we should have never been taken away. RK healer need a complete rework though but some quick fixes like these should be more than enough to make it equal healer to minstrel again in raid content. And ofc reduce rousing words duration to half and increase the frecuency of the heals in it (each 0.5s instead of each 1s) basically making it same heal amount with a condensed amount of time but with same cooldown.
    How about this: increase the damage reduction on OFE to what it was before (or perhaps slightly less, 30-40%), but make it redirect damage to the Runestone. When the Runestone's health reaches 0, it disappears.

    Still I think I'll just answer to no more posts of you two, clearly you're biased or something and judging by your replies I'd say you're not even reading or trying to understand what I posted, you just see some numbers and take asumptions or conclusions of things I didn't even say.
    I'm "clearly biased"? Why? I don't stand to gain anything by driving my point home. This has nothing to do with bias on my part. You're the one who is biased, if anything. I also did not make any assumptions based on what you said, I just quoted you. And I've shown you multiple times now that you're simply wrong about this: OFE is much more valuable than minstrel buffs are. Period. Accept it.
    You cannot average the damage reduction over a longer period of time, that's not how emergency skills work. Yet that's exactly what you've attempted to do numerous times. You should correct yourself.

    And well, this whole thread is pointless since I doubt any single dev did read this thread at all nor do they care about their class balance as soon as they can milk our wallets for more keys and P2W mechanics and not having a single blue name response on this, not a single day of testing, no feedback, no interest from developers on how we find this change are just clear examples that prove that they just don't care about community, they know their game is dying and they're just trying to take the most money out of playerbase instead of actually trying to revive it.
    Changes like the ones to
    - Oathbreakers
    - Reveal Weakness
    - OFE
    actually show that the devs do care about the community, frankly. It shows that they are making it easier for themselves to deliver group content in the future, and that they care about it being challenging. That's something you should be happy with.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
    Also known as Giliodor

  19. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    Well, it's right here:



    I assumed that the .4% extra was factoring in the SoS mit buff somehow. If it didn't, let's just assume that it does now.
    Learn to read and understand what I said, I said that RK STONE did reduce an average of 4.4% over a 3 mins fight, not inspire.

  20. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    Learn to read and understand what I said, I said that RK STONE did reduce an average of 4.4% over a 3 mins fight, not inspire.
    You literally said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    So over those 90s it's an average of 4'4% damage reduction in total damage received, it's the same as inspire fellows.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    it's the same as inspire fellows
    So tone it down, sir.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
    Also known as Giliodor

  21. #96
    Forget it, done with these forums.
    Last edited by dsltn07; Feb 16 2019 at 09:42 PM. Reason: Frustration.

  22. #97
    The best part is that he's using a ST buff (mini coda) and pretending as if it's aoe in order to fuel his delusion.

  23. #98
    None of you arguing about it seem to have even bothered logging on and using the ability to see how it actually works. You're all just trying to troll each other without actually knowing anything about the ability or the class.

    First off, there is no additional 20% reduction for the Runekeeper. I know what the patch notes said, it is not a thing. It looks like they attempted to implement it, but they failed and the self 20% buff does not stack with the 20% from the runestone. So the only effect from that part of changes is the Runekeeper does not need to be within range of the fatestone to benefit from it. The Runekeeper only gets 20% though, and never gets the 40% advertised.

    The radius nerf does not matter. it's 3 meters, it's not going to have any effect. It's a 7 meter radius, not a 7 meter range. That means 14 meters from end to end, that is still more than enough range. Why they bothered changing radius, I don't know. It just makes it more inconvenient and doesn't affect its power at all.

    Fatestone use to work similar to shield wall, in that it used to apply after the end damage (after all mitigations and damage reductions) and leave you with 40% of that number. Now it is actually a percentage added on to your defence that does stack with other sources (tome of defence, rune sign of winter, and our bubbles are the most common effects). So that makes it slightly less bad of a nerf than was originally thought. Still heavy handed, more so than it needed to be, but at least they left us with that.

    All that means, is if a Guardian with 70% mits got hit for 10,000 he would have been hit for 2400 with tome of defence and rune-sign of winter, and 960 with pre nerf fatestone. Post nerf fatestone that 2400 turns into a 1440 hit instead of 960. Very slight boost to the post nerf fatestone. Brings it closer to a 74% nerf instead of the 78% I initially thought it was, I don't have time to do the exact math right now, and it changes based on what other modifiers you have.

    There are no important telegraphed group attacks that the runekeeper fatestone can reliably block in anvil. There are no good strategies where it would be worth using the fatestone on the group for belly flop on boss 1. There are no good strategies where it would be worth using the fatestone on the group for boss 2. There are none for boss 3, and with the boss damage buff in combination with the fatestone nerf, there is none for boss 4. You don't get to block large amounts of short term groupwide damage as a runekeeper. It is not a thing with this current instance cluster.

    For all intents and purposes, in this instance cluster, fatestone is only another cooldown for the tank. Fatestone would be the greatest healing ability in the game if bosses did 200k damage as a spike over 5 seconds to each member of the raid every 2 minutes. And if my grandmother had tires she would have been a bicycle.

    Also bears don't have 84% phys and 74% tact mit. (are you talking about bears heavily buffed by other classes?)
    .
    Gruid-Level 65 Burglar. Trebon-Level 65 Minstrel. Foilfang-Level 60 Hobbit Warden. Stiric-Level 56 Man Champion.

  24. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaelon View Post
    1. Yes they are. You bring up something I also see a lot of on this issue, "RKs have a lack of emergency skills". RKs have aoe bubble and now the nerfed stone, both stronger than any other "emergency skill" in the game. They also have more than enough healing to do any current content, I'm unable to see what the issue is here. As for rez, you are aware that rk rez is the same in blue as in
    4. It is undisputedly the best defensive or "emergency skill" in the game, post nerf.
    No it isn't..

    Let's assume your tank has an incoming damage of 20k per second - which is already too high of an estimate anyway for almost any situation. Fate reduces that by 4k per second, so over the period of 20s you avoid 80k damage

    Less than an autocrit Triumphant heals. The content currently isn't designed in a way that any healing class struggles to outheal boss DPS with their HPS. Consistent damage over time isn't a problem, spike damage is. Tanks getting hit for 150k in less than a second by a boss or a couple of adds (like ID1). The immediate application of the full effect of Triumphant is infinitely better in such a scenario than the trickling effect of Fates.

    Using a RK healer is still viable in most content - except ID1 T3 where the completely lack of offensive buffs is a big problem considering the only currently viable strategy is to burn the boss in 4 and a healf minutes. But let's not kid ourselves, its clearly the worst healing class overall right now and needs some changes (mostly to AoE healing and the ability to deal with bursts)

  25. #100
    Join Date
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    Y'all better get this "Rk healing" straightened out before the legendary servers get there in like 2.5 years!
    Varkking - Dwarf Rune-Keeper - Syndicate - Anor Server
    Moderator of Lord of the Rings On Prime Subreddit.

 

 
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