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Thread: Burglar Tweaks

  1. #76
    Nice approach Vastin, thanks for the wee bump short term and having a more long term vision
    lil 'obbit of Evernight...

    The Ascensio, Chaos Unbound, Paradox, Silent Paths, Ascension, Bonehunters, Legion of the Valar

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Bleh. Scheduling is not being kind to me.

    I think we're going to have to roll into this patch with a fairly generic set of flat DPS bumps for the Burglar just to try to maintain their competitiveness in the playfield, but nothing else for the moment. These are mostly just the damage bumps that were supposed to go in with the Dec patch, but due to a technical oversight, never went live.

    I have a set of more interesting changes including some of the stuff I've been talking about here, plus some of your suggestions - but at this point there is no way I can in good conscience try to jam them into the upcoming patch this late, so I'm going to let them percolate a bit and finish the work for the next significant patch.

    So, looking at it from the half-full side, Burglars can look forwards to two upcoming patches - a short term damage boost, followed by a more significant skill update in the next month or so.

    -Vastin
    Thanks Vastin. Looking forward to the changes - keep up the good work!
    Dobb - Hobbit Burglar
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    ...
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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Bleh. Scheduling is not being kind to me.

    I think we're going to have to roll into this patch with a fairly generic set of flat DPS bumps for the Burglar just to try to maintain their competitiveness in the playfield, but nothing else for the moment. These are mostly just the damage bumps that were supposed to go in with the Dec patch, but due to a technical oversight, never went live.

    I have a set of more interesting changes including some of the stuff I've been talking about here, plus some of your suggestions - but at this point there is no way I can in good conscience try to jam them into the upcoming patch this late, so I'm going to let them percolate a bit and finish the work for the next significant patch.

    So, looking at it from the half-full side, Burglars can look forwards to two upcoming patches - a short term damage boost, followed by a more significant skill update in the next month or so.

    -Vastin
    I read your first few lines and went....aawwww nooooo, and then I read the rest. Hooray! Im happy to hear some of our suggestions made it through and that there is more upcoming work. Im okay with waiting, I know the work you do is always good and I'd rather it be better later than rushed now.

    Thanks for all the work, Vastin!

    -Ods

  4. #79
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    Thank you very much for taking the feedback seriously. Looking very much forward to both the short term dps increase and more interesting changes later.

    Hopefully, I can start grouping with my burg again. That would be terrific.
    Ismarond - 120 Champion
    Ismalil - 120 Burglar
    Ismaili - 120 Guardian


  5. #80
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    Flat dps increases are a lot better than nothing so thanks for that - and hopefully the rest can get done relatively soon.

  6. #81
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    As many others, I would also like to see a change to the difference on Flashing Blades Animation between the different races and genders. Male Human has by far the fastest animation on Flashing Blades and for some reason it actually makes a sound (the clicking of the Blades sound) and for all other Races/Genders the animation is longer, doesn't really fit (I think it's still the old animation from PRE-Helm's Deep) and it doesn't make any sounds. That doesn't seem right to me.

    It would also be very nice to see the Purge Corruption skill being merged with the new Throw Knife skill because both of these skills are very weak damage-wise and Purge Corruption CD is very high compared to Guardian's Sting which also removes a Corruption and only has 3 seconds CD. Also, Burglars have the "Serrated Knife" which is a "Knife Throw" item, so it would make sense to bring Corruption Removal onto the same type of skill.

  7. #82
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    At first glance, everything seems to look good. I would be careful with adding more AoE skills for burg, we may begin to lose our distinct ST identity. I won't be back on the game until early summer to test things out, but thanks Vastin for taking an in-depth look at the current state of Burgs.


    Aenise
    Last edited by Neomoth; Feb 04 2019 at 09:47 AM. Reason: Read previous posts
    First Marshal Aenise - Level 115 Burglar
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  8. #83
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    Please look into compensating for the RW nerf on all skills that were affected.

    The above is a real must for a dev to accomplish to do good by the burglar class player community.

    You nip here, then to you tuck it there. Please. Do not just take a part and throw it out, we are very lean as it is.

    --------------------------
    Then there are countless posts abot a million ideas to consider.

    With DoT and DPS considered above as a starter, I would mention:


    The healing ability from yellow line should be a bit of a thing. It is very underwhelming as of now. When you receive damage of tens of thousands of morale points to be healed for very tiny hundreds is just not serious enough to rely on.

    Evade and healing from blue line could also be looked at as a core Burglar ability, not just in blue line. I don't know, make bob and weave available for all 3 trait tree lines if they trait to 2nd tier of blue?

    With all the tactical damage in the game it would not be anything big, but something that goes with Burglar class and being evasive and agile...

    People that say remove CDG, sorry you people, but this kind of overthinking and when i encounter it in person in the game too much at any given time, it makes me take long breaks. There is no need to remove anything at all.
    dadislotroguides.com -Burg Guide
    Den of Thieves -All Burglar kin on Brandywine
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  9. #84
    Hi Vastin,

    Would you care to share with us any of your thinking for the burglar work at this time ?
    lil 'obbit of Evernight...

    The Ascensio, Chaos Unbound, Paradox, Silent Paths, Ascension, Bonehunters, Legion of the Valar

  10. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Fingerz View Post
    Hi Vastin,

    Would you care to share with us any of your thinking for the burglar work at this time ?

    ^^Bump

  11. #86
    Nudge, bump, tickle
    lil 'obbit of Evernight...

    The Ascensio, Chaos Unbound, Paradox, Silent Paths, Ascension, Bonehunters, Legion of the Valar

  12. #87
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    - Make debuffs more substantial
    - Scale heals and damage/bleeds properly
    - Make FMs actually useful. It doesn't make sense that a FM is ignored because the benefits of just playing your class through the FM choice outweighs the actual FM
    - If we are to stay single target, which is fine with me, then make us great at single target. Maybe not as much as hunters since they would complain, but maybe a little under or at least on par? If not, then give us aoe


    At the end of the day, make us feel wanted/relevant. Currently, no one NEEDS a burg. But they do NEED captains, LMs, etc. There is a problem when you can just delete an entire class out of a game and no one even notices or misses it.

  13. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by stingreddog View Post
    - Make debuffs more substantial
    - Scale heals and damage/bleeds properly
    - Make FMs actually useful. It doesn't make sense that a FM is ignored because the benefits of just playing your class through the FM choice outweighs the actual FM
    - If we are to stay single target, which is fine with me, then make us great at single target. Maybe not as much as hunters since they would complain, but maybe a little under or at least on par? If not, then give us aoe


    At the end of the day, make us feel wanted/relevant. Currently, no one NEEDS a burg. But they do NEED captains, LMs, etc. There is a problem when you can just delete an entire class out of a game and no one even notices or misses it.
    To be fair i agree that burglar need work, but he not not needed, he is very useful in the raid.
    If you want to contact me, pls don't write me a Private Message on the Forum, the chance that I read them is low.
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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    To be fair i agree that burglar need work, but he not not needed, he is very useful in the raid.
    The problem is 1 yellow burg/raid is fine,a second burg is simply useless.
    in every raid so far burg was able to participate in more then 1 spots,even tho reveal weakness was ofc really strong.
    if it would stack at least 2 times anymore....

  15. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkadien View Post
    The problem is 1 yellow burg/raid is fine,a second burg is simply useless.
    in every raid so far burg was able to participate in more then 1 spots,even tho reveal weakness was ofc really strong.
    if it would stack at least 2 times anymore....
    In my eyes red burg should be an equal dps to hunter/rk/champ with very limited support tools and yellow obvisuly way more support oriented.
    If you want to contact me, pls don't write me a Private Message on the Forum, the chance that I read them is low.
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  16. #91
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    I'm currently putting together a video with some of my ideas on how to "Fix Burglar" if you will, which I'll link here when it's done, but in the meantime, here my thoughts in text.

    I'm not fully delving into the finer details of each skill and trait, but the below generalisations would go a long way to improving the current state of the class.



    Base Damage
    • Burglars definitely need a damage increase across the board to make them more viable in melee damage roles
    • Base skill damage improvements would also help out the yellow burglar, particularly at lower levels.
    • A Red Burglar should be the best melee single target damage character. Yes, even Red Champ. It should be risk vs reward: Burglar is squishier, but hits harder.
      • If Red Champ actually was more viable instead of being inferior to yellow champ which can just to the same but to practically limitless targets then it might have something to say in terms of base damage (but would miss out on other bonuses the burglar would get, which have the effect of "Improved damage" (more on that below)


    Positional Damage
    • This would likely be a major long-term rework, but I have a somewhat radical idea here.
    • What if instead of gaining bonus damage for being "In position" (ie, behind the target), this current bonus damage was instead moved to be part of the base damage.
    • Instead, being "In position" could offer some alternative benefit(s) for your attacks: For example, bypassing a percentage of the enemy's mitigations, improved critical chance/damage, etc
    • Added bonus: We can do away with positional damage traits/legacies and figure out something interesting to replace them with.


    AoE
    • Burglars need at least a modest degree of AoE. If every other class has it by default, or can at least spec for some modest degree through traiting off-tree, leaving Burglar out is game-breaking.
    • It doesn't need to be much. My idea would be to turn Surprise Strike and Subtle Stab into minor AoE skills: eg, Frontal AoE, 3 targets (Surprise Slash? Subtle Slice?)
    • Cunning Attack as an AoE would be amazing, but looking at things objectively, might be a little OP in the long run. Would need some number crunching.


    Rotation
    • Burglars suffer from a lack of skills in combat rotation, particularly in the early levels
    • As a QK burg, I have 8 skills in main rotation, 2 of which are pinched from the Gambler tree
    • My Idea would be to reduce the cooldowns on the Burglar's basic attacks: Surprise Strike from 10s to 5s, Cunning Attack from 5s to 3s, Subtle Stab from 3s to 2s
    • This would MASSIVELY help lower level burglar rotation


    Coup de Grace
    • The animation and sound effects are great, but this is a gimmick skill at best.
    • The whole "In-stealth-but-not-really" mechanic has little-to-no use IMHO (maybe it gets some love in PvMP?)
    • I'm guessing the insanely long 1m cooldown is purely due to the "Enter Stealth" side effect
    • My Idea would be to remove the stealth side-effect, and in return reduce the cooldown considerably (20s or less)
    • Maybe give it some sort of effect like it deals bonus damage when used on a target under 25% health or such (It's intended for killing blows after all)


    Fellowship Maneuvers
    • I Know it's beyond the scope of this rework, but hey its one of the unique selling points of the Burglar class and it hasn't been viable since Draigoch
    • Burglar will never be complete again until that system has had an overhaul to make it viable again.


    Stealth Mechanics
    • I think burglars are in a reasonable state here
    • It would be nicer if Sneak and Diversion had shorter cooldowns, so you're not waiting for them to come off cd in PvE, but I suspect there may be some PvMP balancing concerns


    Quality of Life
    • Burglar has a lot of non-combat utility skills that could benefit from little adjustments if only to cooldowns:
    • Safe Fall: Has a 10s cd, is probably active for most of that time. Why not just remove the cooldown, or better yet: Make it a passive skill.
    • Burgle: A Mob can currently only be (successfully) burgled once. So why not just do away with the 20s cooldown entirely. Failed burgle attempts can then be made to auto agro the mob in question.
    • Contact Pedlar: Again, just do away with the 30min cooldown, or at least adjust it to 5m to match the summon duration. It can ONLY be used at a campsite anyway, and being able to sell your trash isn't game-breaking.
    • Track Treasure: This is mutually exclusive with the crafting tracking skills, but those have a 2s cd and this has a 10s cooldown. Reduce it to 2s to match the other comparable skills. This makes i easier to switch between them on the fly.
    Last edited by Brya; Mar 03 2019 at 12:17 PM.
    Otherwise known as Balthelion
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  17. #92
    [QUOTE=Brya;7919810]I'm currently putting together a video with some of my ideas on how to "Fix Burglar" if you will, which I'll link here when it's done, but in the meantime, here my thoughts in text.
    Fellowship Maneuvers
    • I Know it's beyond the scope of this rework, but hey its one of the unique selling points of the Burglar class and it hasn't been viable since Draigoch
    • Burglar will never be complete again until that system has had an overhaul to make it viable again.


    I wish you every success with the vid, Bal. It's taken years for them even to admit there's a problem.
    My idea for a replacement for FMs is that the burg builds the CJ himself, applying properly upscaled potent buffs, debuffs and hey, even oathbreaker summons or AOE splashes himself (rather like a warden gambit) using tricks and trick removals. Requires intricacy and skill, but doesn't slow the game down or interfere with other boss mechanics; on the contrary, if the burg is interrupted, the CJ either stops where it is or fails altogether.

    If burg wants to be in 3-mans, heals in yellow or AOE in red need a serious look. And certain instances (e.g. Caverns of Thrumfall) need to stop being so explicitly penal to melee classes.
    105s: Aedfrith (HN), Aldnoth (CP), Brai (RK), Hrolfdan (MN), Aeldfryd (WD), Morriarty (CH), Aednoth (LM), Mishhar (BR), Hraldan (GR), Rummbold (BG). Tinies - Rumbelina (MN), Aenghus (CP)
    Rangers of Eriador (officer), ex-Snowbourn now Laurelin - A Noob for All Seasons

  18. #93
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    Arrow

    I watched the start of the video above and have some issues with it.
    My main character is a burg, and has been on and off for 11 years.

    Firstly, I don't get the push for introducing AOE damage.

    When I'm soloing I don't want to break my own riddles with AOE.

    When I'm raiding I'm not there to just deal damage, I have other things to do to buff the party and debuff the mobs.
    My damage is just a bonus.

    Pvp - well the less people I'm hitting the more chance I live.

    Another point - CDG - I love that skill when landscaping. Even now at 120 I'm single hitting many mobs from stealth using RW, Aim and CDG.

    Also, when running some big battles and the single target mob arrives I drop my buffs and debuffs on him and then CDG his ####.
    Then I go back to the "normal" rotation.

    Happy to agree to disagree with you but please don't try to turn burgs into champs, we are smarter than that.
    Any oaf can swing his sharp stick around and damage multiple mobs

    I do however agree that we should do the most single target melee damage.
    I'd also like to see us apply poisons but that's a bigger step..

  19. #94
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    Post Burglar Notes on Palantir Forum

    For those of you who are part of the Palantir program who want an early look at the full rework, the notes for it just went up in the Palantir forums, and the new build should follow pretty soon (hopefully tomorrow) so you can actually poke it.

    -Vastin
    Last edited by Vastin; Mar 13 2019 at 11:34 AM.

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    For those of you who are part of the Palantir program who want an early look at the full rework, the notes for it just went up in the Palantir forums, and the new build should follow pretty soon (hopefully tomorrow) so you can actually poke it.

    -Vastin
    Now that's just cruel...
    Arda Shrugged - Elendilstone / Landroval / Anor

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    For those of you who are part of the Palantir program who want an early look at the full rework, the notes for it just went up in the Palantir forums, and the new build should follow pretty soon (hopefully tomorrow) so you can actually poke it. -Vastin
    LOL vastin got no chill
    Last edited by sahanto; Mar 11 2019 at 07:10 PM.
    Estarossa, Rank 15 rune-keeper, Ark

  22. #97
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    get ready for apocalypse boys!

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by gildhur View Post
    Now that's just cruel...
    Indeed
    Dobb - Hobbit Burglar
    Thar - Dwarf Guardian
    ...
    [DE-RP]Belegaer
    R.I.P [DE]Anduin
    Visit my YouTube-Channel!

  24. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by dwarfThar View Post
    Indeed
    Vastin scored a devastating hit with Provoke on the Burglar Forum.
    Vastin scored a critical hit with Addle on the Burglar Forum.
    105s: Aedfrith (HN), Aldnoth (CP), Brai (RK), Hrolfdan (MN), Aeldfryd (WD), Morriarty (CH), Aednoth (LM), Mishhar (BR), Hraldan (GR), Rummbold (BG). Tinies - Rumbelina (MN), Aenghus (CP)
    Rangers of Eriador (officer), ex-Snowbourn now Laurelin - A Noob for All Seasons

  25. #100
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    I'm detecting some Mischievous Glee too...

 

 
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