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Thread: Burglar Tweaks

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Hey folks, tis me Vastin, rolling through to see about a few nips and tucks to the Burglar.

    This is probably going to be even more abbreviated than the Minstrel pass, for two reasons:

    1) Your skills don't appear to be as out of balance with each other as the Minstrel's were - most of your skills seem to basically do what they are supposed to do, with varying degrees of utility.

    2) The wider issues of the class - how the trees interact with each other, or fail to - are simply out of scope for the time I can devote to it right now.

    Basically, a number of your mechanics work, but they don't necessarily synergise with each other all that well, which is a bit frustrating. You have a DPS cycle, but its somewhat weak, and appears to be moreso outside of the red line. Many of the class buffs and debuffs are quite powerful on paper, but often aren't very interesting - sort of fire and forget stuff that barely needs maintenance - and of course, Burglars are notoriously fragile.

    I can't address all those issues, but I'd like to focus on some DPS love and hopefully provide some meaningful survival effects.

    My initial thoughts are to try to buff the CORE dps of the class, rather than any one line specifically, through generally accessible skills and buffs. The main challenge here is that your core attacks generally have very short cool-downs, so I have to be careful not to make them sufficiently powerful that they render the specialty DPS skills redundant. I may end up trading off some longer cool-downs for much higher impact skills in a couple places? Probably a bit more AoE damage as well, as Burgs are extremely single target focused at the moment.

    I'm also pondering a basic survivability skill for the class as a whole, to help them weather some of the deadlier incidental damage in group content despite their rather feeble armor and vitality pools when they are optimizing for DPS.

    I'm currently considering something along the lines of a stacking per-hit defense that substantially reduces the damage for hits that make it past BPE, but that pops counters off a slowly building stack, such that its only a modest benefit if you're fighting something one-on-one, and of almost no benefit if you've agro'd multiple opponents at once, but is of very high utility when you're just taking occasional high-power hits from something like Boss AoE attacks or momentary agro from a powerful add.

    Other tweaks that I'll probably be looking at would be to improve self-healing a little, buff a couple skills that really are falling too far behind the curve and just looking for QoL improvements that can be done quickly.

    Thoughts?

    -Vastin


    Hi Vastin tyvm for working on the burg and taking the time to discuss it with us. For me these are the things that are most important.

    1. Animations tweeked to be faster Surprise strike from stealth I have to use addle to cut it same with flashing blades and double edge.
    2. Core DPS + yes please.
    3. Sneak and diversion lower the cool down please sneak 5 seconds and Diversion 10
    4. Knives out turn it into 5-10 cd Full AOE knife toss that we can fit into our main rotation Or turn Flashing blades into a full AOE attack and CDG into a AOE 5 targets max.
    5. Cunning attack stacking in all forms or no stacking and increase the damage of the single dot by a huge amount to balance.
    6.Trickster a toggle would be nice
    7.More healing in all specs.


    lucky 7 that's all ty and hope it all works out.

  2. #52

    Thoughts? AOE skill talk is a token gesture and a joke

    Vastin your post is perplezing.


    By virtue of your posting it seems there is finally some acknowledgement that all is not well with the burglar, the class that initially obtained the One Ring and kicked off an adventure. You say though that some of the wider issues of the class are 'simply out of scope for the time I can devote to it right now' and in the next breath talk about 'trading off some longer cool-downs for much higher impact skills, 'Probably a bit more AoE damage as well, as Burgs are extremely single target focused at the moment'


    What nonsense is this?
    No time for the wider issues but time to re-invent the wheel adding AoE skills to a class that has always been single target!?

    Many knowledgeable burgs have done threads about the issues which you allude to having read and pondered. Some token AoE skills are not what burgs want. I'm confidant saying I don't see world chat calling for burgs as their AoE dps support is now invaluable.

    Please go back over the burg threads to see what people who are playing this game are actually saying about the class.
    Also while you are at it, please revise the pointless nerf to 'Find Footing.' It was one of the fun skills that made the burg a burg. Nerfing that was the act of a person that hates burgs in PvP. Disgraceful.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquitanius View Post
    Also while you are at it, please revise the pointless nerf to 'Find Footing.' It was one of the fun skills that made the burg a burg. Nerfing that was the act of a person that hates burgs in PvP. Disgraceful.
    Actually, the changes to "Touch and Go" and "Find Footing" makes Burglar very strong in PvP. An "on-demand" 50% heal with additional 15% mitigation that can be reset is super strong.

    However, SSG's justification for changing "Find Footing" was that they wanted to give every class a kind of CC-Removal and most other classes had it on 1-2 minutes cooldown. Only Burglar was standing out with 5 minute (4 in Red Line) CD on the CC Removal with the additional bonus that was 25% heal and +50% evade chance (aka Touch and Go) which is now partly shifted towards Touch and Go. That change is actually a good thing. It's way better for PvP and it now actually gives you a meaningful defensive ability for PvE content.

  4. #54
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    Jun 2011
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    416
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Hey folks, tis me Vastin, rolling through to see about a few nips and tucks to the Burglar.

    This is probably going to be even more abbreviated than the Minstrel pass, for two reasons:

    1) Your skills don't appear to be as out of balance with each other as the Minstrel's were - most of your skills seem to basically do what they are supposed to do, with varying degrees of utility.

    2) The wider issues of the class - how the trees interact with each other, or fail to - are simply out of scope for the time I can devote to it right now.

    Basically, a number of your mechanics work, but they don't necessarily synergise with each other all that well, which is a bit frustrating. You have a DPS cycle, but its somewhat weak, and appears to be moreso outside of the red line. Many of the class buffs and debuffs are quite powerful on paper, but often aren't very interesting - sort of fire and forget stuff that barely needs maintenance - and of course, Burglars are notoriously fragile.

    I can't address all those issues, but I'd like to focus on some DPS love and hopefully provide some meaningful survival effects.

    My initial thoughts are to try to buff the CORE dps of the class, rather than any one line specifically, through generally accessible skills and buffs. The main challenge here is that your core attacks generally have very short cool-downs, so I have to be careful not to make them sufficiently powerful that they render the specialty DPS skills redundant. I may end up trading off some longer cool-downs for much higher impact skills in a couple places? Probably a bit more AoE damage as well, as Burgs are extremely single target focused at the moment.

    I'm also pondering a basic survivability skill for the class as a whole, to help them weather some of the deadlier incidental damage in group content despite their rather feeble armor and vitality pools when they are optimizing for DPS.

    I'm currently considering something along the lines of a stacking per-hit defense that substantially reduces the damage for hits that make it past BPE, but that pops counters off a slowly building stack, such that its only a modest benefit if you're fighting something one-on-one, and of almost no benefit if you've agro'd multiple opponents at once, but is of very high utility when you're just taking occasional high-power hits from something like Boss AoE attacks or momentary agro from a powerful add.

    Other tweaks that I'll probably be looking at would be to improve self-healing a little, buff a couple skills that really are falling too far behind the curve and just looking for QoL improvements that can be done quickly.

    Thoughts?

    -Vastin

    Hey Vastin, just want to ensure that you are aware, I don't know if its already been mentioned.

    But the gambler line Evade to get a Crit Responce is currently broken, no evades or partial evades open up the crit responce

    And im very sure you are aware that the burglar dots are severly nerfed from what was intended in the patch a month ago.
    My dps dropped from 2.2k-2.5k to 1.2k-1.5k overnight on Anor with the same armour/jewellery. Which shows how much this dot nerf/bug effected burgs on Anor.

    Overall these proposed changes/ideas look very good, i look forward to seeing some more in detail lists of your changes
    Especially as a burglar main

    Though can I please make a suggestion?
    Counter defence was one of the main burglar skills in the game back in the day. Now, nobody ever specs it, its effects are abysmal. Could you look at slightly reworking Counter Defence, to perhaps compete with the other tricks?
    Right now, you use dust to tag a bunch of mobs with the 20% miss chance, then you either stack enrage, or stack disable, and then spam enrage or disable/snag/addle for the rest of the fight. I feel like a buff to Counter Defence, to have +5% incoming critical chance, like the bog lurkers ranged one, but for all. could perhaps see people using 1x enrage 1x counter defence, meaning +5% incoming damage, +5% incoming critical chance.
    This could at least mean an extra skill in our rotation

    All round, yellow needs a huge play around with tricks, they are all severely underwhelming in %'s, and dust/counter defence are severly dates or nerfed and need altering in %'s or effect. Counter Defence especially.

    Oh, and i agree with everybody else. please fix the cunning attack stacking mechanism, its kinda annoying.
    Last edited by Eowene; Jan 31 2019 at 03:19 AM.

  5. #55
    I think, most work should be done in blue and yellow line.

    Yellow:
    - Clever Retort morale heal can’t crit, so its magnitude should be much higher, at least 20k morale heal please
    - Clever Retort power heal is ok
    - Clever Retort wound ticks for 10157 damage every 5s for 15s, lower tick time to 3s and increase damage significantly
    - Clever Retort damage from Counter Defence is too low, change it to 50k AOE hit
    - Mischievous Delight power heal is ok
    - Mischievous Delight morale HOT should be at least strong as warden’s Conviction, 2500 morale every 3s
    - Debuffs to finesse, critical defence and resistence from Reveal Weaknes are very weak
    - Please consider to allow yellow burglars stack up to 3 tricks on same targets, 2 different tricks by default and third, which can stack with existing trick, if you use Trickster skill
    - Trickster skill should change all tricks to AOE on 10 targets with high radius to help debuff big trash pulls
    - Trick: Counter Defence should add +5% incoming critical chance, increase numbers on avoidance and critical defence rating debuffs

    Blue:
    - Damaging Gamble should be strong as warden’s big bleed
    - Gambler’s Advantage bleed on max tier should be strong as warden’s medium bleed
    - Skills rotation in blue line is much slower than in red line, hasten skills Blind Bet, Gambler’s Strike, Hedge Your Bet and Cash Out.
    - All In 50% attack speed buff has no impact on blue line skill rotation speed
    - Increase cooldown on Provoke to 15s
    - Look at Provoke critical chance debuff, there is suspicion, that this buff is not working properly
    - Cash Out damage from damaging gamble should be higher, maybe change it to AOE
    - Cash Out buff from debuffing gamble should be more significant, 12636 Evade rating isn’t even 1% Evade, change it to 10% Evade buff, this will sinergy well with Bob and Weave
    - Cash Out should work as well on disabling gamble daze, it can make 5s AOE stun on 5 targets, remove daze from target and reset cooldown on Provoke. Currently you are not able to apply damaging gamble after disabling gamble, because Gambler's Strike renew daze instead of apply new damaging gamble
    - Even the Odds Phisical Mastery buff need to be higher
    - Reduce cooldown on Marbles
    - Lower Exploit Opening cooldown, currently Guardians are better for Fellowship Manoeuvre opening than Burglars
    - Increase duration of Debuffing gamble
    - Increase Bob and Weave heal and make it proc also from resist, so burglar can get heal from tactical attacks

    Red:
    - please, do not add more AOE into the red line
    - red line dps is ok, it just needs some small damage tweaks.
    - you can solve CDG problem by disabling this skill from stealth, after that you can lower CDG cooldown.
    - lower Sneak cooldown
    - Increase Relish Battle heal
    Last edited by Krindel; Jan 31 2019 at 08:05 AM.
    Laurelin: Kinship - Outcasts
    Ilwee - Warden, Krindel - Minstrel, Krinborn - Lore-Master, Gislin - Burglar

  6. #56
    I hope to see a boost in attackrange too.
    Maybe it’s just a problem in Europe (ping = 120ms) but it’s really hard to not losing dps on a moving boss.
    If the boss is getting kited and I follow, there is always the massage: Not in range to do that.
    I’d like to see the same range as champions and guardians that uses the same weapon (4,2m).

  7. #57
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    My Burglar configuration for DPS is red line, with blue line additions for bleeds.
    I find that core DPS is very lacking, but stealth/positional specials are fine.
    In solo PvE, the major problem is non-positional DPS, combined with inherrent lack of survivability, the latter exacerbated by the recent changes that made it very hard to get decent levels of evade in medium armour.
    In group content, as yoou have identified, there is a lack of core DPS compared to other classes, which is a problem for a class that is supposed to excel at single target melee; combined with a struggle to survive the big random boss hits. The healers obviously have to concentrate on the tank and a Burglar struggling to survive can bring down a whol fellowship/raid due to diversion of attention; this has become a more prominent problem with the reduction of splash healing.
    Another issue with group content at end-game is that the instance designs, particularly end bosses, favour range DPS and heavily detiment melee DPS. This is mostly because of the big AoE and 'random' attacks and the lack of survivability characteristics of the Burglar. As I said before the survivability squishiness issue has been highlighted and exacerbated by the recent changes that make mitigations hard to achieve, and when you do concentrate enough into mitigations/avoidance it renders DPS a poor relation compareed to other classes.
    This balance between survivability and actually being useful is a major issue.

    I have a yellow line build but, find that is only needed for very special situations, e.g. double disable to enable the tank to survive particularly nasty instance bosses. Support is very much a secondary role for the Burglar.

  8. #58
    to all those people that suggest counter defense should give 5 or 6% incoming crit bonus.
    With critical magnitudes as they are in lotro, one percent crit does not equal one percent more damage, but much more.
    As such, giving counter defense 5/6% incoming crit would just turn around the current use of trick:enrage and only counter defense would be used for offense, never enrage.
    If we really should have two different offensive tricks, they need to be balanced with each other or stackable.
    Having two and one being better in all situations doesn't make sense. Then the other shouldn't exist.
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  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Hey folks, tis me Vastin, rolling through to see about a few nips and tucks to the Burglar.

    This is probably going to be even more abbreviated than the Minstrel pass, for two reasons:

    1) Your skills don't appear to be as out of balance with each other as the Minstrel's were - most of your skills seem to basically do what they are supposed to do, with varying degrees of utility.

    2) The wider issues of the class - how the trees interact with each other, or fail to - are simply out of scope for the time I can devote to it right now.

    Basically, a number of your mechanics work, but they don't necessarily synergise with each other all that well, which is a bit frustrating. You have a DPS cycle, but its somewhat weak, and appears to be moreso outside of the red line. Many of the class buffs and debuffs are quite powerful on paper, but often aren't very interesting - sort of fire and forget stuff that barely needs maintenance - and of course, Burglars are notoriously fragile.

    I can't address all those issues, but I'd like to focus on some DPS love and hopefully provide some meaningful survival effects.

    My initial thoughts are to try to buff the CORE dps of the class, rather than any one line specifically, through generally accessible skills and buffs. The main challenge here is that your core attacks generally have very short cool-downs, so I have to be careful not to make them sufficiently powerful that they render the specialty DPS skills redundant. I may end up trading off some longer cool-downs for much higher impact skills in a couple places? Probably a bit more AoE damage as well, as Burgs are extremely single target focused at the moment.

    I'm also pondering a basic survivability skill for the class as a whole, to help them weather some of the deadlier incidental damage in group content despite their rather feeble armor and vitality pools when they are optimizing for DPS.

    I'm currently considering something along the lines of a stacking per-hit defense that substantially reduces the damage for hits that make it past BPE, but that pops counters off a slowly building stack, such that its only a modest benefit if you're fighting something one-on-one, and of almost no benefit if you've agro'd multiple opponents at once, but is of very high utility when you're just taking occasional high-power hits from something like Boss AoE attacks or momentary agro from a powerful add.

    Other tweaks that I'll probably be looking at would be to improve self-healing a little, buff a couple skills that really are falling too far behind the curve and just looking for QoL improvements that can be done quickly.

    Thoughts?

    -Vastin
    Vastin is looking for quick fixes as mentioned very last line = (QoL improvements that can be done quickly) personally i would rather wait long term for a more overall global update on the burg yellow/blue lines red line seems ok.

    1/ Quick fix increase base dps across the board as mentioned.


    Slow and steady wins the race Vastin not sure a quick fix is what most burgs are looking for but im sure dps increase will keep most of us happy for awhile.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    to all those people that suggest counter defense should give 5 or 6% incoming crit bonus.
    With critical magnitudes as they are in lotro, one percent crit does not equal one percent more damage, but much more.
    As such, giving counter defense 5/6% incoming crit would just turn around the current use of trick:enrage and only counter defense would be used for offense, never enrage.
    If we really should have two different offensive tricks, they need to be balanced with each other or stackable.
    Having two and one being better in all situations doesn't make sense. Then the other shouldn't exist.
    You are right, +5% incoming critical chance would be too strong, especially if used twice with Trickster. What about + incoming melee critical chance?
    Laurelin: Kinship - Outcasts
    Ilwee - Warden, Krindel - Minstrel, Krinborn - Lore-Master, Gislin - Burglar

  11. #61
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    Looks like you are starting off decent Vastin, Thank you for trying to fix the burglars! I hope you made it to my comment and I have two short and sweet recommendations not touched on in your initial post.

    Conjunctions - Buff these, and you indirectly buff the burglar. People haven't seriously used these since level 60. Please they were one of the best parts of Lotro back in the day.

    Burgular squishyness- Something that could either be very easy or a total nightmare to program. Why not give burglars a similar ability to evasion the D&D rogue ability. I propose making it so burgs would take minus 30-50% incoming damage from attacks that hit multiple targets?

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Krindel View Post
    You are right, +5% incoming critical chance would be too strong, especially if used twice with Trickster. What about + incoming melee critical chance?
    Good idea Ilwee, it would help melee somewhat in the imbalance between them and ranged DPS.
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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krindel View Post

    Yellow:
    - Clever Retort morale heal can’t crit, so its magnitude should be much higher, at least 20k morale heal please
    - Clever Retort power heal is ok
    - Clever Retort wound ticks for 10157 damage every 5s for 15s, lower tick time to 3s and increase damage significantly
    - Clever Retort damage from Counter Defence is too low, change it to 50k AOE hit
    - Mischievous Delight power heal is ok
    - Mischievous Delight morale HOT should be at least strong as warden’s Conviction, 2500 morale every 3s
    - Debuffs to finesse, critical defence and resistence from Reveal Weaknes are very weak
    - Please consider to allow yellow burglars stack up to 3 tricks on same targets, 2 different tricks by default and third, which can stack with existing trick, if you use Trickster skill
    - Trickster skill should change all tricks to AOE on 10 targets with high radius to help debuff big trash pulls
    - Trick: Counter Defence should add +5% incoming critical chance, increase numbers on avoidance and critical defence rating debuffs
    Fully agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krindel View Post
    Blue:
    - Damaging Gamble should be strong as warden’s big bleed
    - Gambler’s Advantage bleed on max tier should be strong as warden’s medium bleed
    - Skills rotation in blue line is much slower than in red line, hasten skills Blind Bet, Gambler’s Strike, Hedge Your Bet and Cash Out.
    - All In 50% attack speed buff has no impact on blue line skill rotation speed
    - Increase cooldown on Provoke to 15s
    - Look at Provoke critical chance debuff, there is suspicion, that this buff is not working properly
    - Cash Out damage from damaging gamble should be higher, maybe change it to AOE
    - Cash Out buff from debuffing gamble should be more significant, 12636 Evade rating isn’t even 1% Evade, change it to 10% Evade buff, this will sinergy well with Bob and Weave
    - Cash Out should work as well on disabling gamble daze, it can make 5s AOE stun on 5 targets, remove daze from target and reset cooldown on Provoke. Currently you are not able to apply damaging gamble after disabling gamble, because Gambler's Strike renew daze instead of apply new damaging gamble
    - Even the Odds Phisical Mastery buff need to be higher
    - Reduce cooldown on Marbles
    - Lower Exploit Opening cooldown, currently Guardians are better for Fellowship Manoeuvre opening than Burglars
    - Increase duration of Debuffing gamble
    - Increase Bob and Weave heal and make it proc also from resist, so burglar can get heal from tactical attacks
    Mostly agree. Blue Line definitly needs a big DPS buff but as you said, you will also need a skill that applies a Damaging Gamble which is currently only Lucky Strike/Gambler's Strike which is also increasing existing Gamble effects on the target. That would definitly need to change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krindel View Post
    Red:
    - please, do not add more AOE into the red line
    - red line dps is ok, it just needs some small damage tweaks.
    - you can solve CDG problem by disabling this skill from stealth, after that you can lower CDG cooldown.
    I disagree to some point. Obviously, Burglar was never an AOE DPS class before but gameplay- and balance-wise it would really help out burglars so that they can be useful in 3man and 6man content. However, this should not be the highest priority and to make Burglars actually effective as an AOE DPS class, they would really need to change many skills.

    Red Line Single Target DPS is not really okay, yes it's better than Blue Line but that doesn't make it good. Red Line Burglar underperforms massively compared to all other DPS classes (Hunter/RK/Champ/Warden) and we're talking about like 50% of the other Classes' DPS in raid situations and yes, Red Line Burglar IS a DPS class. In addition to that, Red Line Burglar will probably still not be used for raids because they can not stack Reveal Weakness as there will already be another, mandatory yellow Burglar in the raid group. You would also need to consider that because Burglar does not have any AOE damage, at least Single Target damage needs to be good enough and that's obviously not the case at the moment.

    CDG can only be considered a problem in the Ettenmoors, in PvE this skill is near useless and Vastin said he wants to make it more valuable for PvE. Changing what you are supposing will not make CDG more useful or valuable in any way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krindel View Post
    Red:
    - lower Sneak cooldown
    - Increase Relish Battle heal
    I agree on these two points.

  14. #64
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    Hey Vastin,
    glad to see you working on the Burglar
    So you basically want us to fill a dps slot in 3 and 6 man content? Our debuffs are severely lacking compared to a Loremaster, so we will basically never fill the support role outside of a raid where 1 LM isn't enough - unless our debuffs are reworked.
    I will copy some of my main concerns from another thread as they're still relevant:
    Bugfixes:

    1) Debuffing Gamble's -X% damage debuff doesn't take into account "mob tier" (signature, elite, elite master, ...) damage multipliers and as result debuffs bosses' damage in raids for like 6% instead of the described 40% (T6). Note that this is not a mastery or t2/t3 buff issue - it's an inherent multiplier mobs get depending on their type.
    Loremaster debuffs and Yellow Line's Trick: Disable work correctly in that regard.
    Issue was also discussed in this thread: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-Chance-Debuff
    For deeper insight including Dev response: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...84#post4585584 (Thread from 2010 where that issue affected all debuffs - apparently all were fixed but the Debuffing Gamble)
    That bug renders blue line essentially useless apart from being a Mez-Bot.

    2) Provoke Crit chance debuff and Trick: Counter Defence's 2nd Rank -2% crit chance does absolutely nothing. And there's even a legacy to enhance this, which as a result does nothing also.
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-Chance-Debuff
    (Edit: Apparently Counter Defence does work, but Provoke doesn't, as Snobs pointed out below)

    3) Flashing Blades' second attack isn't affected by positional damage bonuses (traits/LIs) and critical multipliers when devastating. You tried fixing the weird damage numbers for second attacks of DES and FB a while ago, only FB's second attack is what keeps this from finally being settled.

    4) Please fix animation times that differ noticeably between Human and Hobbit Burgs (especially Flashing Blades!)

    Scaling issues:

    Reveal Weakness Finesse, Crit Def and Resistance debuffs are too low in value.

    Trick: Counter Defence -B/P/E and Crit Def debuff is way too low to have any noticeable effect.


    Suggestions:


    An overall Damage Buff really would come in handy. Especially since we didn't get the compensational one mentioned in the patch notes yet. Something like 50% across the board would be perfect in my opinion (except for Coup de Grace maybe...), if we are supposed to fill a DPS slot in 3 and 6 man content.

    Re-introduce stackability of Reveal Weakness. At least 2 as the first BR notes mentioned.

    Yellow line

    Make different Tricks stackable in yellow line (and AoE?) so we may be considered a viable debuffer for 6 mans. Trickster would need a rework then of course. Maybe replace it with a trait that makes Riddle 2 targets?

    Maybe re-introduce the old + incoming crit chance on Trick: Counter Defence. This Trick is currently useless, especially since the crit chance debuff doesn't work.

    Red:

    Add the Surprise Strike +Dev Chance buff from the old moors sets to the trait tree somehow. That bonus was great and helped our sustained dps. Would also make using Surprise Strike worth it again - this was once a burg signature skill which is now seldom used because of its clunky animation.

    Blue:


    Gambler was awesome before trait trees, since then it's just not worth it anymore, sadly. This would probably need a complete rework. Fix the Debuffing Gamble and it can be a fun solo line with the occasional use for instances and raids in its current state.


    Looking forward to what you'll come up with

    Edit: Your take on buffing survability sounds interesting. It won't do anything to improve burgs grouping situation however. The problem isn't us dying - it's providing anything meaningful to a 3 or 6 man fellowship even when alive
    Last edited by dwarfThar; Jan 31 2019 at 11:55 AM.
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  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by dwarfthar View Post
    hey vastin,
    glad to see you working on the burglar
    so you basically want us to fill a dps slot in 3 and 6 man content? Our debuffs are severely lacking compared to a loremaster, so we will basically never fill the support role outside of a raid where 1 lm isn't enough - unless our debuffs are reworked.
    I will copy some of my main concerns from another thread as they're still relevant:
    bugfixes:

    1) debuffing gamble's -x% damage debuff doesn't take into account "mob tier" (signature, elite, elite master, ...) damage multipliers and as result debuffs bosses' damage in raids for like 6% instead of the described 40% (t6). Note that this is not a mastery or t2/t3 buff issue - it's an inherent multiplier mobs get depending on their type.
    Loremaster debuffs and yellow line's trick: Disable work correctly in that regard.
    Issue was also discussed in this thread: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-chance-debuff
    for deeper insight including dev response: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...84#post4585584 (thread from 2010 where that issue affected all debuffs - apparently all were fixed but the debuffing gamble)
    that bug renders blue line essentially useless apart from being a mez-bot.

    2) provoke crit chance debuff and trick: Counter defence's 2nd rank -2% crit chance does absolutely nothing. And there's even a legacy to enhance this, which as a result does nothing also.
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-chance-debuff

    3) flashing blades' second attack isn't affected by positional damage bonuses (traits/lis) and critical multipliers when devastating. You tried fixing the weird damage numbers for second attacks of des and fb a while ago, only fb's second attack is what keeps this from finally being settled.

    4) please fix animation times that differ noticeably between human and hobbit burgs (especially flashing blades!)

    scaling issues:

    reveal weakness finesse, crit def and resistance debuffs are too low in value.

    trick: Counter defence -b/p/e and crit def debuff is way too low to have any noticeable effect.


    suggestions:


    an overall damage buff really would come in handy. especially since we didn't get the compensational one mentioned in the patch notes yet. something like 15% across the board would be perfect in my opinion (except for coup de grace maybe...).

    Re-introduce stackability of reveal weakness. At least 2 as the first br notes mentioned.

    yellow line

    make different tricks stackable in yellow line (and aoe?) so we may be considered a viable debuffer for 6 mans. Trickster would need a rework then of course. Maybe replace it with a trait that makes riddle 2 targets?

    Maybe re-introduce the old + incoming crit chance on trick: Counter defence. This trick is currently useless, especially since the crit chance debuff doesn't work.

    red:

    add the surprise strike +dev chance buff from the old moors sets to the trait tree somehow. That bonus was great and helped our sustained dps. Would also make using surprise strike worth it again - this was once a burg signature skill which is now seldom used because of its clunky animation.

    blue:


    gambler was awesome before trait trees, since then it's just not worth it anymore, sadly. This would probably need a complete rework. fix the debuffing gamble and it can be a fun solo line with the occasional use for instances and raids in its current state.


    Looking forward to what you'll come up with :d

    edit: Your take on buffing survability sounds interesting. It won't do anything to improve burgs grouping situation however. The problem isn't us dying - it's providing anything meaningful to a 3 or 6 man fellowship even when alive


    gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooood comment!!!

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwarfThar View Post
    2) Provoke Crit chance debuff and Trick: Counter Defence's 2nd Rank -2% crit chance does absolutely nothing. And there's even a legacy to enhance this, which as a result does nothing also.
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-Chance-Debuff
    The Trick: Counter Defence -2% Critical Hit Chance does actually work. The Provoke one does not work because it says -2% Critical Chance and not -2% Critical Hit Chance. It appears that -x% Critical Chance is not a defined term in the coding.

    Quote Originally Posted by dwarfThar View Post
    Reveal Weakness Finesse, Crit Def and Resistance debuffs are too low in value.

    Trick: Counter Defence -B/P/E and Crit Def debuff is way too low to have any noticeable effect.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by dwarfThar View Post
    An overall Damage Buff really would come in handy. Especially since we didn't get the compensational one mentioned in the patch notes yet. Something like 15% across the board would be perfect in my opinion (except for Coup de Grace maybe...).
    15% is not enough. Red Burglars are at like 50-60% DPS compared to all other DPS classes. There needs to be more changes than just damage. Something like you described in the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by dwarfThar View Post
    Re-introduce stackability of Reveal Weakness. At least 2 as the first BR notes mentioned.

    Yellow line

    Make different Tricks stackable in yellow line (and AoE?) so we may be considered a viable debuffer for 6 mans. Trickster would need a rework then of course. Maybe replace it with a trait that makes Riddle 2 targets?

    Maybe re-introduce the old + incoming crit chance on Trick: Counter Defence. This Trick is currently useless, especially since the crit chance debuff doesn't work.

    Red:

    Add the Surprise Strike +Dev Chance buff from the old moors sets to the trait tree somehow. That bonus was great and helped our sustained dps. Would also make using Surprise Strike worth it again - this was once a burg signature skill which is now seldom used because of its clunky animation.

    Blue:


    Gambler was awesome before trait trees, since then it's just not worth it anymore, sadly. This would probably need a complete rework. Fix the Debuffing Gamble and it can be a fun solo line with the occasional use for instances and raids in its current state.


    Looking forward to what you'll come up with

    Edit: Your take on buffing survability sounds interesting. It won't do anything to improve burgs grouping situation however. The problem isn't us dying - it's providing anything meaningful to a 3 or 6 man fellowship even when alive
    These would be fantastic changes!

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snobs View Post
    15% is not enough. Red Burglars are at like 50-60% DPS compared to all other DPS classes. There needs to be more changes than just damage. Something like you described in the following:
    You are right. If Vastin wants us to be viable DPSers and not support outside of a raid environment the increase needs to be much more. I'll edit the post above!
    Dobb - Hobbit Burglar
    Thar - Dwarf Guardian
    ...
    [DE-RP]Belegaer
    R.I.P [DE]Anduin
    Visit my YouTube-Channel!

  18. #68
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    I hope Vastin doesnt forget this:

    Patch notes Dec. 12 said this:

    News and Notes:

    Classes:
    Burglar:

    "Skill damage and DoT damage increased. With reveal weakness decreasing in potency, Burglar damage needed to increase to compensate."

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-Release-Notes


    THIS NEVER HAPPEND ON LIVE or any test build at all. NEVER

  19. #69
    I’m pretty sure that’s what he’s doing NOW. Unfortunately I suspect that those changes to burg (except the RW nerf) were put off because they realized it would need more time.

  20. #70
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    Post

    Bleh. Scheduling is not being kind to me.

    I think we're going to have to roll into this patch with a fairly generic set of flat DPS bumps for the Burglar just to try to maintain their competitiveness in the playfield, but nothing else for the moment. These are mostly just the damage bumps that were supposed to go in with the Dec patch, but due to a technical oversight, never went live.

    I have a set of more interesting changes including some of the stuff I've been talking about here, plus some of your suggestions - but at this point there is no way I can in good conscience try to jam them into the upcoming patch this late, so I'm going to let them percolate a bit and finish the work for the next significant patch.

    So, looking at it from the half-full side, Burglars can look forwards to two upcoming patches - a short term damage boost, followed by a more significant skill update in the next month or so.

    -Vastin

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Bleh. Scheduling is not being kind to me.

    I think we're going to have to roll into this patch with a fairly generic set of flat DPS bumps for the Burglar just to try to maintain their competitiveness in the playfield, but nothing else for the moment. These are mostly just the damage bumps that were supposed to go in with the Dec patch, but due to a technical oversight, never went live.

    I have a set of more interesting changes including some of the stuff I've been talking about here, plus some of your suggestions - but at this point there is no way I can in good conscience try to jam them into the upcoming patch this late, so I'm going to let them percolate a bit and finish the work for the next significant patch.

    So, looking at it from the half-full side, Burglars can look forwards to two upcoming patches - a short term damage boost, followed by a more significant skill update in the next month or so.

    -Vastin
    Thank you for all your class work Vastin!

    A damage boost is most welcome at this point, and it's good to get it soon!

    Also it's great to know you will be working on some further changes in the near future!

    I'll be looking forward to seeing what that will bring our class!

  22. #72
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    159
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Bleh. Scheduling is not being kind to me.

    I think we're going to have to roll into this patch with a fairly generic set of flat DPS bumps for the Burglar just to try to maintain their competitiveness in the playfield, but nothing else for the moment. These are mostly just the damage bumps that were supposed to go in with the Dec patch, but due to a technical oversight, never went live.

    I have a set of more interesting changes including some of the stuff I've been talking about here, plus some of your suggestions - but at this point there is no way I can in good conscience try to jam them into the upcoming patch this late, so I'm going to let them percolate a bit and finish the work for the next significant patch.

    So, looking at it from the half-full side, Burglars can look forwards to two upcoming patches - a short term damage boost, followed by a more significant skill update in the next month or so.

    -Vastin
    A dps buff for the start is fine, make sure it is not too small.

    Take your time with the skill and hopefully ANIMATION changes, as long as you keep the communication up we can wait another 1-2 months

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Bleh. Scheduling is not being kind to me.

    I think we're going to have to roll into this patch with a fairly generic set of flat DPS bumps for the Burglar just to try to maintain their competitiveness in the playfield, but nothing else for the moment. These are mostly just the damage bumps that were supposed to go in with the Dec patch, but due to a technical oversight, never went live.

    I have a set of more interesting changes including some of the stuff I've been talking about here, plus some of your suggestions - but at this point there is no way I can in good conscience try to jam them into the upcoming patch this late, so I'm going to let them percolate a bit and finish the work for the next significant patch.

    So, looking at it from the half-full side, Burglars can look forwards to two upcoming patches - a short term damage boost, followed by a more significant skill update in the next month or so.

    -Vastin

    Thank you so much for the ongoing dialogue and communication. It makes such a difference just knowing that frustrations are being listened to and that work is in hand.

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Bleh. Scheduling is not being kind to me.

    I think we're going to have to roll into this patch with a fairly generic set of flat DPS bumps for the Burglar just to try to maintain their competitiveness in the playfield, but nothing else for the moment. These are mostly just the damage bumps that were supposed to go in with the Dec patch, but due to a technical oversight, never went live.

    I have a set of more interesting changes including some of the stuff I've been talking about here, plus some of your suggestions - but at this point there is no way I can in good conscience try to jam them into the upcoming patch this late, so I'm going to let them percolate a bit and finish the work for the next significant patch.

    So, looking at it from the half-full side, Burglars can look forwards to two upcoming patches - a short term damage boost, followed by a more significant skill update in the next month or so.

    -Vastin
    I don’t know what all you have on your plate, but if it’s at all possible I would personally be interested in a more regular class update schedule or sequence. Where perhaps the class gets a short term balance update with simple changes and then 2-3 weeks of work to improve the overall skills, traits, and animations. Beorn of course needs a second pass, mini may need another adjustment update to follow the initial depending on how things pan out. A second pass on burg is now coming. Captain and warden may need some work, though given past reworks both are likely terrified to ask. You mentioned possibly adjusting extremely impactful skills which might require a balance pass for healing RKs and cappies. Then there are the abandoned trait lines that could use work, such as yellow mini, yellow/blue burg, Beorn overall, especially red, blue cappy, blue/yellow warden, LM pet stuff maybe debuffs, blue champ.

    Thank you for the work and communication.
    Last edited by dsltn07; Jan 31 2019 at 05:33 PM.

  25. #75
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Germany
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    725
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Bleh. Scheduling is not being kind to me.

    I think we're going to have to roll into this patch with a fairly generic set of flat DPS bumps for the Burglar just to try to maintain their competitiveness in the playfield, but nothing else for the moment. These are mostly just the damage bumps that were supposed to go in with the Dec patch, but due to a technical oversight, never went live.

    I have a set of more interesting changes including some of the stuff I've been talking about here, plus some of your suggestions - but at this point there is no way I can in good conscience try to jam them into the upcoming patch this late, so I'm going to let them percolate a bit and finish the work for the next significant patch.

    So, looking at it from the half-full side, Burglars can look forwards to two upcoming patches - a short term damage boost, followed by a more significant skill update in the next month or so.

    -Vastin
    Thank u for all your work and: Understandable. Even though phrases like "upcoming patches" are a little bleh...Considering raiding etc. Esp for those 2 classes that are still waiting for a tweak to make them useable in upcoming T3 raid...
    I remember times in which sth like this meant: next level cap But I trust you that it will be "in the next month"...

 

 
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