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Thread: Burglar Tweaks

  1. #26
    If the class is going to get a proper fix without toying with trait trees then id suggest looking at the core class (Lotro Wiki has labeled as Debuffer) and comparing that to the other classes in that role (Lore-Master). Now ideally those two classes should be able to do very similar things but in different styles.

    Compare a Yellow burg to a Yellow LM;
    both have multiple options for CC that i don’t need to go into. For simplicity's sake ill say Burg = LM

    both can deal moderate dps if required but more focused on increasing group dps above their own- Yellow LM increases Fire RK's and Fire Oil Hunters dps up to 40% consistently, yellow burgs can increase everyone’s dps by 28.6% (20.6%RW + 3%QaS + 5%Enrage) with a 100% uptime. Here is a point of pain. since Fire RK's/Hunters are top tier dps then the LM is the better choice as they can stay at range and buff dps by a larger margin, but if the group make up was solely dps wardens or champs then i would want a burg since they aren’t restricted by damage type; BUT, melee dps isn’t exactly favored in the current endgame so LM>Burg.

    Both can off heal and restore power- Yellow LM has water lore which is a decent single target stacking heal that increases incoming healing, Burg has Mischievous Glee which is an AoE heal that heals initially less than or equal to 1 pulse of water lore, and then has a HoT component that is so lack luster that to write home about it would be a waste of ink. For spot heals there's Beacon of Hope for LMs which in yellow also has a small AoE hot but for burg there's.... Clever Retort? AoE heal for again, equal to 1 pulse of water lore and requires the removal of Disable to use. LM>Burg

    Both can debuff- here's where the numbers get to be unfortunate that its nearly disparate. LM has Fire-Lore and as a Tier 1 trait it can be gained in any trait line; at max rank it’s a 35% melee damage reduction, with a unimbued swap item its 40%. Burg has Disable but as a yellow line exclusive skill; 15% damage debuff (all types) and if using a legacy to max the duration and the Trickster capstone ability you can double the effect (30% all damage). This is surprisingly comparable with LM’s as both have an LI buy in and requires maintaining. LM = Burg

    I’ll outline where ive noticed points of pain in just the support side of the burglar class; It’s ability to increase group dps is dwarfed by current meta endgame and its ability to justify the risk of it being in the thick of combat isn’t out weighted by its ability to heal itself and others. My Suggestions would be increasing the healing on Mischievous Glee and possibly adding some form of rider on it (damage reduction, outgoing damage, incoming healing) and then either increase skill damage to make up for the gap in group dps utility, or favor the already existing skills more for melee groups.

    As for the other 2 trait lines, ill leave those up to more experts in that field.

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Heh. Kind of amusing to see the views on Coup De Grace. It's cooldown is obviously quite long for a pure DPS skill which is lame, but its animation time is pretty much average for the game as a whole (~1.5s) - it's just that some of the burg attacks are insanely fast by comparison.

    SStab, Gamblers Adv, and Imp Feint are all 0.35s, and a few of your self-buff skills are - somewhat oddly - actually instant with no animation or execution time whatsoever(!). This is all very nice for rippling off attack sequences very quickly, but extremely fast skills of this sort tend in practice to lead to execution 'dead times' because most lotro players aren't actually running at 180APM, and needing to move and evade effects in combat blows huge holes in the effective DPS of skills like this, compared to slower, hard hitting skills that don't suffer so much for their execution being delayed a second here and a second there.

    So I'll admit that I'm not currently looking to make the class more spammy in terms of basic attack rate, I'd prefer to improve the magnitude of the slower skills so that they can better leverage critical boosts and short attack windows. Speeding things up is just likely to bring the magnitude of your hits down and make it harder to keep up the APM needed to play the class effectively, esp in more complex fights - few if any of your skills root you in place, so mobility shouldn't be an issue even with your slower attacks.

    In any case, I think I can pretty easily make CDG a worthwhile skill without scrapping it, though it isn't really my focus ATM.

    -Vastin
    Vastin, can you please give us the attack duration and animation time (both!) for all skills for all classes? Only getting these numbers from random offhand comments makes it hard to strategize. Thanks a lot.

    About "give us" - it would be best if this could be in-game somehow, but it's understandable that this might be a lot. Alternatively, the team could contribute to the wiki or have frequently updated mechanics stickies at the tops of the relevant forums.

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Quite frankly they make the raids vastly harder to balance, as they generate nasty combinatoric math that we really can't sort out because the numbers swing so dramatically based on specific fellowship makeup.
    Now, bebuffs in this game once upon a time were damage reducing debuffs were multiplicative and incoming damage debuffs were additive, and since I’ve not been told other wise ill continue assuming it is still the case. Lets take 2 fellowships and assume all dps are identical:
    Fellowship 1 has a tank, healer, and 4 RK dps
    Fellowship 2 has a tank, healer, LM, Burg, and 2 RK dps
    Fellowship 1 goes into a fight and takes 100% of the boss’ damage, while dealing 4x100% their damage
    Fellowship 2 goes into the same fight and takes 42% of the boss’ damage, while dealing 2x(100%+68.6%)

    Now as you can see Fellowship 1 deals more damage, but Fellowship 2 takes significantly less damage; possibly so much so that the LM/Burg can off heal the tank enough to replace the healer with another dps. If so then the dps potential of Fellowship 2 just became more advantageous. Is this style of gameplay bad? In my opinion no as it is a group working together and creative problem solving.
    However what we see most often is that the boss is overtuned from the start to require an LM or burg, and naturally groups will gravitate to the class that provides the best bonus’s for the setup they have and LM>Burgs if the group has RK’s or Fire Oil Hunters.

    My solution, balance your raids for at least 1 support for T1, assume both an LM and Burg for T2, and T3 add in mechanics that change the way the T2 run was previously completed without making the fights 12 players watching a billion moral slowly tick away.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Hey folks, tis me Vastin, rolling through to see about a few nips and tucks to the Burglar.

    This is probably going to be even more abbreviated than the Minstrel pass, for two reasons:

    1) Your skills don't appear to be as out of balance with each other as the Minstrel's were - most of your skills seem to basically do what they are supposed to do, with varying degrees of utility.

    2) The wider issues of the class - how the trees interact with each other, or fail to - are simply out of scope for the time I can devote to it right now.

    Basically, a number of your mechanics work, but they don't necessarily synergise with each other all that well, which is a bit frustrating. You have a DPS cycle, but its somewhat weak, and appears to be moreso outside of the red line. Many of the class buffs and debuffs are quite powerful on paper, but often aren't very interesting - sort of fire and forget stuff that barely needs maintenance - and of course, Burglars are notoriously fragile.

    I can't address all those issues, but I'd like to focus on some DPS love and hopefully provide some meaningful survival effects.

    My initial thoughts are to try to buff the CORE dps of the class, rather than any one line specifically, through generally accessible skills and buffs. The main challenge here is that your core attacks generally have very short cool-downs, so I have to be careful not to make them sufficiently powerful that they render the specialty DPS skills redundant. I may end up trading off some longer cool-downs for much higher impact skills in a couple places? Probably a bit more AoE damage as well, as Burgs are extremely single target focused at the moment.

    I'm also pondering a basic survivability skill for the class as a whole, to help them weather some of the deadlier incidental damage in group content despite their rather feeble armor and vitality pools when they are optimizing for DPS.

    I'm currently considering something along the lines of a stacking per-hit defense that substantially reduces the damage for hits that make it past BPE, but that pops counters off a slowly building stack, such that its only a modest benefit if you're fighting something one-on-one, and of almost no benefit if you've agro'd multiple opponents at once, but is of very high utility when you're just taking occasional high-power hits from something like Boss AoE attacks or momentary agro from a powerful add.

    Other tweaks that I'll probably be looking at would be to improve self-healing a little, buff a couple skills that really are falling too far behind the curve and just looking for QoL improvements that can be done quickly.

    Thoughts?

    -Vastin
    Hey, that sounds good so far. You've correctly pointed out that Universal Burglar Skills are in need of change, in Red Line 80+% of all Damage comes from Critical Chain Skills, so changing the following would be nice:

    1. Surprise Strike 100% needs to be looked at, its damage is way to low and its Stealth Animation is to slow, so that skill will never be used and people will prefer using Provoke to get rid of the Feint Attack Buff because ...

    2. Cunning Attack Stacking is badly designed at the moment. I've described how it works in other posts, all in all it PUNISHES you for Critting (because you can only stack NON-CRIT Cunning Attacks) which should not be the case and you cannot stack the Improved Version of Cunning Attack (with Stealth or Feint Attack)

    3. Gambler's Advantage DoT is way to low.

    4. Blue Line Gambles aren't nearly as strong as they should be. Damaging Gamble needs to be increased by like 2000% to be competetive. All other Blue Line skills are to weak to be competetive. In addition, Blue Line Burglar's Role in group/raids is not really defined, that's a problem!

    5. Yellow Line Burglar only works as an addition for Loremasters, they can never replace a Loremaster ... Therefore Yellow Line Burglars are only used in Raid Situations, not in 3-man/6-man content and obviously not for questing.

    6. Coup de Grace is strong in the Ettenmoors but not as strong in PvE.

    7. Strong AOE Damage would certainly make Burglars viable for 3- and 6-man instances which they are not at the moment, so that would be nice!

    8. More Surivability is nice, but not necessary. Burglars are supposed to be a little bit squichier than Champ for example but only as long as they can compete as damage dealers which is not the case at the moment. Red Line Burglars don't deal nearly as much damage as other DPS classes, and YES, Red Line Burglar IS a DPS Class.

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Hey folks, tis me Vastin, rolling through to see about a few nips and tucks to the Burglar.

    This is probably going to be even more abbreviated than the Minstrel pass, for two reasons:

    1) Your skills don't appear to be as out of balance with each other as the Minstrel's were - most of your skills seem to basically do what they are supposed to do, with varying degrees of utility.

    2) The wider issues of the class - how the trees interact with each other, or fail to - are simply out of scope for the time I can devote to it right now.

    Basically, a number of your mechanics work, but they don't necessarily synergise with each other all that well, which is a bit frustrating. You have a DPS cycle, but its somewhat weak, and appears to be moreso outside of the red line. Many of the class buffs and debuffs are quite powerful on paper, but often aren't very interesting - sort of fire and forget stuff that barely needs maintenance - and of course, Burglars are notoriously fragile.

    I can't address all those issues, but I'd like to focus on some DPS love and hopefully provide some meaningful survival effects.

    My initial thoughts are to try to buff the CORE dps of the class, rather than any one line specifically, through generally accessible skills and buffs. The main challenge here is that your core attacks generally have very short cool-downs, so I have to be careful not to make them sufficiently powerful that they render the specialty DPS skills redundant. I may end up trading off some longer cool-downs for much higher impact skills in a couple places? Probably a bit more AoE damage as well, as Burgs are extremely single target focused at the moment.

    I'm also pondering a basic survivability skill for the class as a whole, to help them weather some of the deadlier incidental damage in group content despite their rather feeble armor and vitality pools when they are optimizing for DPS.

    I'm currently considering something along the lines of a stacking per-hit defense that substantially reduces the damage for hits that make it past BPE, but that pops counters off a slowly building stack, such that its only a modest benefit if you're fighting something one-on-one, and of almost no benefit if you've agro'd multiple opponents at once, but is of very high utility when you're just taking occasional high-power hits from something like Boss AoE attacks or momentary agro from a powerful add.

    Other tweaks that I'll probably be looking at would be to improve self-healing a little, buff a couple skills that really are falling too far behind the curve and just looking for QoL improvements that can be done quickly.

    Thoughts?

    -Vastin

    Yeah easy thought here...could just go back to the normal traits pre-HD something 90% of Lotro's Population would agree with, maybe

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aethilods View Post
    Yeah easy thought here...could just go back to the normal traits pre-HD something 90% of Lotro's Population would agree with, maybe
    Actually, no. While the old Traits were certainly very fun, they are completely outdated and can't compete today. Something like having more tricks while in Red/Blue Line would be very cool though.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post

    SStab, Gamblers Adv, and Imp Feint are all 0.35s ...

    -Vastin
    First of all very excited to hear you're working on burglar now, since burgs did not get any dmg increase at all after the revealing mark nerf...

    Now for the quote, pls do log both a MAN Burglar and a HOBBIT Burglar, and do the flashing blade skill with queueing subtle stab after. You won't even need a stopwatch or anything to spot the hideous difference in animation time ... Have no idea what old coding made this still be, but somewhere at level 85-95 the flashing blades animation stopped making the ''Man Burglar sound'', and the animation for hobbit got way longer. (Maybe it is from way back when weapons (dagger, sword, club) had different animations) This has been a known bug for everyone who have played/tested both MAN race and HOBBIT race burglar for a looooong time now. It would simply be AMAZING if you would manage to fix this, since EVERY player who currently own a HOBBIT Burglar, get a pure dps loss cus of the animation difference.

    There's also animation differences, allthough smaller and more subtle on Surprise Strike, Quite a Snag, Enrage, Cunning Attack, maybe Double-Edged Strike/Exposed Throat. Some players also reporting on animation differences between the genders Man and Female Burglar (female slower), tho haven't tested this for my self.

    (There's also hideous animation differences for champions too... Dwarf animation especially for Ferocious Strikes and Brutal Strikes takes something that feels like 0.4 sec longer, than the animations on Elf/Man champ. And that's 2 of the CORE st dps skills on champion. I own both a dorf and a man champ, and it is not even fun to play dwarf champ atm compared to man champ. Man champ ends up doing 7-9% more DPS always cus of better animations.)

    There's alot of good feedback here, for example with some aoe bleed spread, but this is for sure my n1 wish, since in all honesty, some of the hobbit burglar animations feel really clunky, and is just a pure dps loss compared to a man burglar.
    Last edited by Seodric; Jan 30 2019 at 02:42 AM.
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  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Hey folks, tis me Vastin, rolling through to see about a few nips and tucks to the Burglar.

    Snip,

    Thoughts?

    -Vastin
    I understand your reluctance to address the utility and debuffing aspects and focus more on dps.
    After all it's likely the dps output you can pop into one of your formulas and see it's lacking compared to other classes.

    But..

    Without delving into the yellow line the Burglar will still be unable to furfil support role in harder 3 and 6 man content and LM will remain as the exclusive debuffer for harder fellowship content.

    Burglars are frustrated that they have no place in the game outside solo and raid content , unless you intend on making the burg as comparable to say a hunter or rk for dps (which I hope you are not) and intend them to be a dps class, where is the Burglar going to fit into group content after the tweaks?

    My overwhelming response to your initial statement is if you need more time (which I think you may do) to get it done right then please send that message back up the chain...the Burglar needs more work for it to be useful than some tweaks on skill damage and cooldowns, otherwise it will likely still be unwanted in fellowship content
    (which is ironic considering the burgalr is supposed to be the heart of the fellowship)

    Goodluck on the burgalr work Vastin, I'm looking forward seeing what could be your greatest class work challenge yet come to furition.

    Edit. You mention giving burg better survivability for group content in dps spec, just remember we first need inviting to the group content ...
    Last edited by Fingerz; Jan 30 2019 at 03:21 AM.
    lil 'obbit of Evernight...

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  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by luckygirl1 View Post
    Hi Vastin

    Obviously the core dps of the burg needs to be increased which you have addressed

    I like the idea of a stacking defense buff. And as far as self-healing is concerned, Mischievous Glee definitely needs updated.

    But. Since you are now looking at the burglar. Could you please take some time to go over the skill animations of the hobbit burglar. I'll just copy and paste what I have been saying over and over again:

    Cut down the animation of hobbit burglars Double-Edged Strike, Flashing blades, exposed throat, cunning attack, coup de grace, and Quite a Snag. All of these skills listed are significantly slower in animation and have longer frame rates as a hobbit burglar versus a human male burglar.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seodric View Post
    First of all very excited to hear you're working on burglar now, since burgs did not get any dmg increase at all after the revealing mark nerf...

    Now for the quote, pls do log both a MAN Burglar and a HOBBIT Burglar, and do the flashing blade skill with queueing subtle stab after. You won't even need a stopwatch or anything to spot the hideous difference in animation time ... Have no idea what old coding made this still be, but somewhere at level 85-95 the flashing blades animation stopped making the ''Man Burglar sound'', and the animation for hobbit got way longer. (Maybe it is from way back when weapons (dagger, sword, club) had different animations) This has been a known bug for everyone who have played/tested both MAN race and HOBBIT race burglar for a looooong time now. It would simply be AMAZING if you would manage to fix this, since EVERY player who currently own a HOBBIT Burglar, get a pure dps loss cus of the animation difference.

    There's also animation differences, allthough smaller and more subtle on Surprise Strike, Quite a Snag, Enrage, Cunning Attack, maybe Double-Edged Strike/Exposed Throat. Some players also reporting on animation differences between the genders Man and Female Burglar (female slower), tho haven't tested this for my self.

    (There's also hideous animation differences for champions too... Dwarf animation especially for Ferocious Strikes and Brutal Strikes takes something that feels like 0.4 sec longer, than the animations on Elf/Man champ. And that's 2 of the CORE st dps skills on champion. I own both a dorf and a man champ, and it is not even fun to play dwarf champ atm compared to man champ. Man champ ends up doing 7-9% more DPS always cus of better animations.)

    There's alot of good feedback here, for example with some aoe bleed spread, but this is for sure my n1 wish, since in all honesty, some of the hobbit burglar animations feel really clunky, and is just a pure dps loss compared to a man burglar.
    I support this. Vastin, please fix the animation DURATION differences between man and hobbit burgs, as well as male and female burgs. I know it will probably take you a lot of time but it is a serious problem. If you don't fix it now, it will probably never be done
    Last edited by random_player_897469; Jan 30 2019 at 12:47 PM.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post



    I'm also pondering a basic survivability skill for the class as a whole, to help them weather some of the deadlier incidental damage in group content despite their rather feeble armor and vitality pools when they are optimizing for DPS.

    I'm currently considering something along the lines of a stacking per-hit defense that substantially reduces the damage for hits that make it past BPE, but that pops counters off a slowly building stack, such that its only a modest benefit if you're fighting something one-on-one, and of almost no benefit if you've agro'd multiple opponents at once, but is of very high utility when you're just taking occasional high-power hits from something like Boss AoE attacks or momentary agro from a powerful add.


    -Vastin
    Really appreciate your work and communication. We all need to keep in mind that these are only tweaks and we should not demand too much.

    I am a yellow only Burg with 133k morale (without the new raid set) and over 50% phy/tact mits unbuffed. Doing this so no healer has to care about me and it works fine...Your role in yellow is not to be a DD so I just go fully tank.
    I am the last man standing most of the time...Even though some will hate me I think the yellow line is kinda fine.It is extremely useful in Anvil T2 and it gets bad fast without a yellow Burg. We are not supposed to be LMs we are supposed to have a
    symbiosis with the LM. I think the role in a 3 man should be the DD not the "Burg healer debuffer". Thrumfall is of course a really bad ini for all melee DDs but this is a different topic...

    If vastin would buff the Burg to a LM level debuffing/healing the combination of both would be way to OP in raid.

    Of course there are tricks/traits/debuffs/buffs/heals etc that did not scale up since lvl 95 but this is a issue every class has.(Trick: Counter Defence is ...well..duh..and the Reveal Weakness debuffs also seem to be a little low? How much finesse etc has a boss?)

    A buff to Mischievous Glee would be awesome. 10k initial heal and 2k HoT or sth.idk.

    BUT this defense buff you are talking about would ne nice for the DD roles. Consider giving sth like this the Champ too. He is heavy - yes, but he needs to go glass cannon to be competitive, too.

    (Champs and blue wardens could also use tweaks (NO OVERHAUL YET) esp for T3 ... I know I get annoying but I do not only look at my class...Champs for example are actually useful in T2 raid (but most take ony ONE tbh) but I don't really now about T3..with all those puddles and debuffs melee classes fear to stand in...He does much but yet to little damage compared to Hunter/RK to risk it. So a buff like you want to give the Burg could be nice for Champs as well..)
    Last edited by Hildilas; Jan 30 2019 at 07:18 AM.

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Hey folks, tis me Vastin, rolling through to see about a few nips and tucks to the Burglar.

    Thoughts?

    -Vastin
    Hi Vastin,

    11 year burg veteran here.

    First of all, I am stoked you are taking over the patient, it's been suffering for a while now.

    I understand the resources do not allow for a complete overhaul of the class atm, so I'll stick to immediate tweaks I believe we absolutely need:

    - as everybody without exception knows, our sustained damage is, to put it mildly, subpar. Honestly, I have never been a PvMP player, so I do not really care for explosive from stealth damage (never slotted any +% dmg from stealth traits/legacies). I reckon it is part of the game, but we should consider how big a part it really is. So your proposal of incresing our overall general dps (not just redline) sounds perfect to me. However, consider also the suggestion many people are making: allow ALL versions of cunning attack to stack, increase surprise strike damage and decrease its animation time, increase damaging gamble damage by A LOT... Also, as a side note, I love Even the Odds, as it adds a unique flavour to the dps rotation, but while the Crit Rating buff is quite good (25k), the mastery buff is too far behind (4,5k).

    - regarding debuffs, I think we are not in such a bad place, except for one thing: some of our debuffs are ridiculously unscaled or simply don't work at all. As others have said, the fact that debuffing gamble works additively and not multiplicatively renders it irrelevant, and the fact that we have an AMAZING debuff on provoke (legacy'd) of -13% critical chance which simply does nothing is just sad. Counter defence is both unscaled and frankly in no man's land: if you need defense you'll go for disable, and if you need offense you'll choose enrage. Consider reworking it into something useful for specific situations (something like healing mark maybe?). Trickster, while nice in concept, seems underpowered when compared with other classes' capstones. I honestly believe turning it into a toggle which turns all tricks into aoe and allows you to keep the last 2 tricks at all times wouldn't be op at all.

    - our cc is great, maybe even too great when traited blue. I think increasing provoke's cooldown a little (2-3 seconds) would make it harder to abuse.

    - our heals are honestly a joke, if you slot +20% healing trait + maxed glee and retort legacies you don't even reach 10k direct heal, nevermind hots. I'd increase retort direct heal drastically and give glee a much bigger hot, and maybe an inc healing buff like someone suggested. Both Relish Battle and Bob and Weave need scaling too.

    - finally, most of our capstones are, again, useless or broken. Blue line's All In is fine, but Sharp Eye is both useless and broken. Something like a passive allowing to spread bleeds + gambles with Cash Out would fit nicely (I believe if you give us any sort of aoe damage capabilities, it should be in blue line). Red line capstones seem to only cater for PvMP. +%dmg form stealth is irrelevant in group content, and CdG as well, while it's been criticised so much in the Moors. Finally, I believe yellow line's Trickster should be changed as I mentioned, and Cover your Tracks should be a yellow line passive, while being replaced by something like double Riddle (you have to slot 2 lvl105 parts for that).

    Again, just my 2 cents. Looking forward to being saved

  12. #37
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    Simple wishes:
    Riddle affecting two targets in the yellow trait tree, as was normal during Moria from armor set bonus. We can easily brake a daze with our throwing knife.
    A faster filler skill, when other skills are on cooldown. Preferably subtle stab (SS). The bonus of doing this is that it automatically also slightly buffs the yellow line as SS reduces cooldown on trick removal skills.
    Returned glory to 'Find Footing': I used to love getting stunned, and in PvMP everyone knew to avoid stunning a burglar. With the one minute cooldown, I can see it is too potent as it once was. So, I'd vouch for simply having a self-heal of 10% or an evade buff. The main reason is that we are quite soft, and during a stun we are at our weakest being unable to evade and take more damage than other melee classes while having lower morale.
    Increased range for quite a snag: Some instances are in favor of the ranged, so it would allow us another debuff at range, and increase our usefulness in FS. Also, it gives us better crowd control making easier use of the root.
    Increased Finesse. Perhaps through our primary stat agility. It is so critical for our tricks and skills, yet only possess so little of it naturally that we have to stack it into our armors.
    Caltrops consumable could become a skill


    Convinction signals need a future too. Fellowship manoeuvres are a relic of distant past that need more attention than a tweak.



    Greater scope wish:
    A burglar should be an equally good option for a three-man as a captain or lore-master. We were once the heart of the fellowship, yet today always picked last, and when that happens, we are often DPS. To be honest, the 'Revealing mark', a vital skill for captains, should perhaps see a fragment placed into burglar's yellow line Reveal Weakness (e.g. 5% to burglars, and 10% to captains). Allowing the burglar to heal himself, and the fellowship, through a debuff. Note that this comes from someone who has mained captain since MoM.

    I'd also like to put a claim here to rouse some discussion:
    Claim: Because we are a single target DPS and debuff melee class, our debuffs on single targets should be more potent than that of the AoE AND ranged Loremaster.




    What would be bad:


    AoE skills. We're supposed to control the situation then pick them one by one. Instead of AoE, I'd rather see a buff to CC and regular single target dps.
    Last edited by hfe; Jan 30 2019 at 09:14 AM.

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post

    So I'll admit that I'm not currently looking to make the class more spammy in terms of basic attack rate, I'd prefer to improve the magnitude of the slower skills so that they can better leverage critical boosts and short attack windows. Speeding things up is just likely to bring the magnitude of your hits down and make it harder to keep up the APM needed to play the class effectively, esp in more complex fights - few if any of your skills root you in place, so mobility shouldn't be an issue even with your slower attacks.

    -Vastin


    Makes sense. My original post in this thread is not referring to making the class faster. But please, take some time to look and compare the differences between playing a male / female hobbit burglar against a human male burglar. I am only asking that you fix the animation / frame rates of the hobbit burglar to be on the same par as a human male burglar

    Not asking you to make the entire class faster. Skills that are greatly effected by this are in the burglar's redline (double-edged strike, flashing blades, exposed throat, cunning attack, cdg, and quite a snag).


    This forces hobbit rotations to actually suffer when comparing to a human male burglar. 1. the human burglar is just faster in general. And 2, it forces the hobbit to animate cut skills like flashing blades more often. Where a human can use addle to animate cut skills like Surprise Attack more often. Making the human burglar's rotation actually more versatile. A classes rotation shouldn't be effected based on the race you chose.

  14. #39
    Please try to put surprise strike back into dps rotation or even Usable.
    At the moment does too little damage and has a big cast time.

  15. #40

    The problems of burglar

    A) The burglar needs improvement of tricks:
    1) Disable
    2) Counter Defence.

    How to improve them? Very simply! The first trick should improve Dubuff twice. And to Change a trick of Counter Defence for an old look when it gave to +3% chance of the critical attack on target
    B) The burglar needs improvement of all curing abilities: Clever Report \Mischievous Delight.
    How to improve it? To make that it is abilities just treated percentage of the maximum quantity of morale and power.

    C) tricks of the burglar have to work for AOE (3 targets)
    It is simply unfair when LM can do it and the burglar cannot


    On a screenshot at the LM not all his useful abilities are shown, and the burglar has no AOE as a concept. It very weak in the yellow line.
    If you look at statistics of classes, then it is the MOST unpopular class now and if look at the mute of passing of PVE of content (if it is available for you), then it there will practically not be.
    People pay in game currency (gold) or ask the friends that they finished instance for them.
    I understand that you want to balance PVP and PVE, but it should not affect balance of a class.
    the burglar now a useless class in PVE. Even if to take statistics which I could collect then on this statistics only 1 burglar from 100 could pass new intances (tier 3). He needs cardinal alteration of the yellow line.
    Alteration of the red line.
    How to it to remake the red line? First it needs to raise a loss by 1.5 - 2 times, but to remove from the game CDG(coup ge grace), I consider that this ability was a mistake, to make it in order that PVMP monsters did not cry. From tests I say that a loss of the burglar, the burglar's debuff very weak.
    Someone will tell that the burglar has a good loss, for etoy people I will answer: Create the burglar, play the burglar, create RK play them. Compare.
    At all this the burglar uses melee skills. That is he receives much more loss than RK\hunter. What turns out? its loss is lower than a loss of RK below than the hunter's loss, he uses melee skills. Solve for yourself, but all this is wrong.. Champion also uses Melee skills, but its loss is 5-7 times higher in comparison with the burglar

    P.S: all debuffs at LM are combined, and at the burglar only if to choose, but to choose there is nothing. Practically all its debuffs is trashcan. The burglar needs to remake all lines under new updates.



    Such DPS can be will eat your average damage 15000 and the attacks in a second 2.2-2.3 will become. And now to practice. Your Dps on the burglar from whom debuff is required (the yellow line will not exceed 5000). So as that so! did you in general play long ago on the burglar?
    LM can give debuff so that my damage will be twice more. My DPS on my hunter without buff\debuff in instance 40000-55000 t3. With it it rises to 70000-80000. LM can be taken instead of the healer. Its Hps is enough to pass intances t3 for three of people. And the burglar will be simply useless. HPS from LM on a tank will make 15000-23000. Crit by water-lore 19000-24000 and it is HOT (heal over time(stacks 3 times)) of Crit by beacon of hope 55000-63000 (with 3 WL 80000). And at me on the burglar 634 it are 35 times less. You think by 35 times.
    Once again I will repeat the Burglar cannot have big DPS in the yellow line because its attacks very long, and tricks and abilities from bleedings have very small damage 4 times smaller than the hunter has penetration shot and 7 times less than essay of fire at RK



    In this updating under the burglar just did not make gear. If you dress the svey burglar on damage, you will just die of AOE of the attacks in 10-20 seconds. Yes, it is perhaps possible bdt can make 20k 30 DPS, but in it there will be no advantage if you die, and you will die your damage will be equal to zero

    By the way, the burglar can aim himself for 50% and LM can the hunter or it is simple to RK to cure 40-80% and to give it HOT(heal over time) for 10-30% each 4 seconds and CD on this ability at it 30 seconds but not 5 minutes






    A result we have a class which is worse than all others in any direction that all lines of the burglar weak. Red has VERY malky loss in comparison with other classes. ESPECIALLY ON 1 PURPOSE. Yellow has Debuff which is worse than at LM many times.
    Last edited by Leonid3703; Jan 30 2019 at 10:09 AM.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonid3703 View Post
    ....

    ...To me the Burglar is neither a healing supporter nor a 2. LM. It does not suit him. And again: Adjusting Burglar debuffs to LM debuffs would make them together in raid way to strong!
    This LM heals are also very much connected to old sets and crit/healing gear. No Burglar would equip healing gear or has a set that more than doubles an incoming healing buff. Fire Lore only does 40% less damage with an old Book.
    When it comes to 3 and 6 man inis the Burg should be the DD not the healer.


    There ARE things that SHOULD be adjusted though. Reveal weakness debuffs and counter defense debuffs.
    When I did Anvil T2 with my Burg a few days ago I had 2xdisabled on all "Bosses" except for the one that was off tanked.And -26% tactical damage when it was needed...This is far away from weak or under powered. It is needed and important.
    Furthermore the yellow Burg is WAAAY more tanky than a LM which is quite important too.

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Hildilas View Post
    ...To me the Burglar is neither a healing supporter nor a 2. LM. It does not suit him. And again: Adjusting Burglar debuffs to LM debuffs would make them together in raid way to strong!
    This LM heals are also very much connected to old sets and crit/healing gear. No Burglar would equip healing gear or has a set that more than doubles an incoming healing buff. Fire Lore only does 40% less damage with an old Book.
    When it comes to 3 and 6 man inis the Burg should be the DD not the healer.


    There ARE things that SHOULD be adjusted though. Reveal weakness debuffs and counter defense debuffs.
    When I did Anvil T2 with my Burg a few days ago I had 2xdisabled on all "Bosses" except for the one that was off tanked.And -25% tactical damage when it was needed...This is far away from weak or under powered. It is needed and important.




    The burglar of USELESS in 3-man intance. BECAUSE it is not necessary there, and LM USEFUL, to Cappy useful, Champion, hunter, guardian, beorning, warden, RK, and the burglar is not. I think to you this argument will be enough
    Last edited by Leonid3703; Jan 30 2019 at 10:48 AM.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonid3703 View Post
    ...
    Yes which he fits very well in 6 and 12 man content. But support does not mean "healer". IMO they could take away the Big heal from the LM and leave him with the inc healing buffs but it does not mean that the Burg should be able to heal an intance. A LM also isn't a main healer. It works well in 3 man though. The warden is also a main tank but no once cares.

    As I understood vastin wants to focus on damage and survivability anyway. This will not be an overhaul. And by saying that the Burg is useless you are just plain wrong.

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Hildilas View Post
    Yes which he fits very well in 6 and 12 man content. But support does not mean "healer". IMO they could take away the Big heal from the LM and leave him with the inc healing buffs but it does not mean that the Burg should be able to heal an intance. A LM also isn't a main healer. It works well in 3 man though. The warden is also a main tank but no once cares.

    As I understood vastin wants to focus on damage and survivability anyway. This will not be an overhaul. And by saying that the Burg is useless you are just plain wrong.
    People keep saying “total rework” or “revamp” etc in reference to the work done by Vastin on the Beorn and burg. IMO if the core skills, traits, or mechanics are not changed then it’s an update, not a “total rework”. Totally reworking a class implies that it is complete and current to the rest of the game. After the recent (very appreciated) class updates at least one, if not two out of three, of the trait lines for the mentioned classes are still extremely unbalanced. To me, this is not a “total rework”. Sorry, I just get tired of people trying to establish that the recently updated class is entirely balanced and up-to-date.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smapper View Post
    Any plans to do anything for yellow line? I personally think the biggest problem with burg is that it simply doesn't compete for any 3 or 6 man content, any plans to do something about that? Also don't forget to remove coup de grace cause it's a BS skill.
    Small question, are you going to be balancing all classes to come?
    This is my biggest concern also, yellow line is just...sad.

    As far as red, Im all for nerfing CDG or removing it entirely to enable an overall dps boost across the board. Many others have suggested locking it behind morale (useable on enemy below 30% health) or something like that and I think thats a great idea. As it stands, that 1 skill makes burst dps in red way OP imo, however since its the only big dps skill in red really...it makes the rest of that particular tree sorta lackluster lol. Yay I can hit over 100k, and 1-shot any landscape mob...but then in any other fight (raids, grps etc) red is useless after your big opening hit.

    So, probably an unpopular opinion ahead: Im okay with removing or nerfing the heck out of CDG and boosting the other skills.

    But please yellow, please please yellow.

    -Ods
    Last edited by Oddessia; Jan 30 2019 at 12:02 PM.

  21. #46
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
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    168
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    We're trying to move away from class group roles being defined by massive group buffs/boss debuffs. That was the problem with Reveal Weakness in the first place. Having a buff that a character can throw that validates their raid slot if they toss it and go stand quietly in a corner is something that we're very much trying to get away from.

    Quite frankly they make the raids vastly harder to balance, as they generate nasty combinatoric math that we really can't sort out because the numbers swing so dramatically based on specific fellowship makeup.

    So if you're looking for a given class line to be defined by its ability to debuff a boss into a puddle of goo, I'm not going to be able to help you there - though I'm not planning any nerfs to their existing debuffs in the short term.

    -Vastin
    My apologies, I dont know how to quote 2 people at once in the same post, lol. But like Saruman Of Numbers said...this has me pretty concerned. It *sounds* like blue and yellow tree are going to fall (even more) by the wayside, and this pass will be a 'general dps boost'. I really, truly hope this is not the case. I don't play burg for dps at all, I have dps toons for that. I play it for the super fun utility and group components...that if not fixed will just become obsolete.

    'Not planning any nerfs'...lol you cant nerf something that already has 0 impact.

    Please please yellow. LOL Maybe Ill make that my byline :P

    -Ods

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Oddessia View Post
    My apologies, I dont know how to quote 2 people at once in the same post
    There are several ways:
    Easiest is: use the multiquote-function, which is located just right of the normal quote.
    You can just quote normally, Copy everything (strg+C) and paste it into another post, where you quote something different (strg+V).
    Or you can quote by using the quotation code and write everything by hand.
    Diskutierer, Fragenbeantworter, Twinker, Händler, Handwerker und Gründer der 'Gemeinschaft der freien Völker' auf Belegaer.
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  23. #48

    Burg

    Vastin,

    Looking forward to seeing what positive changes you make to the burg. A DPS buff would definitely be welcomed. We were promised one before, and then never given said buff. I think an overall increase to the class and all trees vs. one specific tree would be welcomed.

    If you get into trait tree specifics, I'd like to see the additional speed added to yellow line same as red and blue. Our TnG self heal is in a good place, but any other additional survivability skills would, again, be welcomed.

    Looking forward to seeing and testing what gets put into place.

    Meowburglar.
    The one ... the only ... Meow.

  24. #49
    I realize that it is probably beyond the realm of "tweaks" you are considering but Fellowship Manouvers have such great potential to add a complex and interesting dynamic to cooperative group mechanics, and it would be really great if they were worth doing again. Any chance of starting with an across-the-board buff to all the effects to see if groups find them worth building?

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    130
    Quote Originally Posted by Oddessia View Post
    My apologies, I dont know how to quote 2 people at once in the same post, lol. But like Saruman Of Numbers said...this has me pretty concerned. It *sounds* like blue and yellow tree are going to fall (even more) by the wayside, and this pass will be a 'general dps boost'. I really, truly hope this is not the case. I don't play burg for dps at all, I have dps toons for that. I play it for the super fun utility and group components...that if not fixed will just become obsolete.

    'Not planning any nerfs'...lol you cant nerf something that already has 0 impact.

    Please please yellow. LOL Maybe Ill make that my byline :P

    -Ods
    A DPS Boost for Burglars is desperatly needed. Red Line Burglar is far behind all other DPS classes (YES, Red Line Burglar is a DPS class) and we're not talking about a small difference, all other DPS classes have about double DPS compared to Red Burglar. Of course, it would be nice if Vastin had the time to completely rework the Blue Line (which is required for it to be useful anywhere) and to change multiple mechanics so that Yellow Line is more enjoyable and more impactful but that's not happening as Vastin said.

    Anyways, any Burglar Tweaks that are going to increase DPS and improve gameplay (i. e. Surprise Strike not being useful/strong enough currently, Cunning Attack's bad Stacking) are very much welcomed by and for all Burglar Specs!

 

 
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