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Thread: Burglar Tweaks

  1. #1
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    Post Burglar Tweaks

    Hey folks, tis me Vastin, rolling through to see about a few nips and tucks to the Burglar.

    This is probably going to be even more abbreviated than the Minstrel pass, for two reasons:

    1) Your skills don't appear to be as out of balance with each other as the Minstrel's were - most of your skills seem to basically do what they are supposed to do, with varying degrees of utility.

    2) The wider issues of the class - how the trees interact with each other, or fail to - are simply out of scope for the time I can devote to it right now.

    Basically, a number of your mechanics work, but they don't necessarily synergise with each other all that well, which is a bit frustrating. You have a DPS cycle, but its somewhat weak, and appears to be moreso outside of the red line. Many of the class buffs and debuffs are quite powerful on paper, but often aren't very interesting - sort of fire and forget stuff that barely needs maintenance - and of course, Burglars are notoriously fragile.

    I can't address all those issues, but I'd like to focus on some DPS love and hopefully provide some meaningful survival effects.

    My initial thoughts are to try to buff the CORE dps of the class, rather than any one line specifically, through generally accessible skills and buffs. The main challenge here is that your core attacks generally have very short cool-downs, so I have to be careful not to make them sufficiently powerful that they render the specialty DPS skills redundant. I may end up trading off some longer cool-downs for much higher impact skills in a couple places? Probably a bit more AoE damage as well, as Burgs are extremely single target focused at the moment.

    I'm also pondering a basic survivability skill for the class as a whole, to help them weather some of the deadlier incidental damage in group content despite their rather feeble armor and vitality pools when they are optimizing for DPS.

    I'm currently considering something along the lines of a stacking per-hit defense that substantially reduces the damage for hits that make it past BPE, but that pops counters off a slowly building stack, such that its only a modest benefit if you're fighting something one-on-one, and of almost no benefit if you've agro'd multiple opponents at once, but is of very high utility when you're just taking occasional high-power hits from something like Boss AoE attacks or momentary agro from a powerful add.

    Other tweaks that I'll probably be looking at would be to improve self-healing a little, buff a couple skills that really are falling too far behind the curve and just looking for QoL improvements that can be done quickly.

    Thoughts?

    -Vastin

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Hey folks, tis me Vastin, rolling through to see about a few nips and tucks to the Burglar.

    This is probably going to be even more abbreviated than the Minstrel pass, for two reasons:

    1) Your skills don't appear to be as out of balance with each other as the Minstrel's were - most of your skills seem to basically do what they are supposed to do, with varying degrees of utility.

    2) The wider issues of the class - how the trees interact with each other, or fail to - are simply out of scope for the time I can devote to it right now.

    Basically, a number of your mechanics work, but they don't necessarily synergise with each other all that well, which is a bit frustrating. You have a DPS cycle, but its somewhat weak, and appears to be moreso outside of the red line. Many of the class buffs and debuffs are quite powerful on paper, but often aren't very interesting - sort of fire and forget stuff that barely needs maintenance - and of course, Burglars are notoriously fragile.

    I can't address all those issues, but I'd like to focus on some DPS love and hopefully provide some meaningful survival effects.

    My initial thoughts are to try to buff the CORE dps of the class, rather than any one line specifically, through generally accessible skills and buffs. The main challenge here is that your core attacks generally have very short cool-downs, so I have to be careful not to make them sufficiently powerful that they render the specialty DPS skills redundant. I may end up trading off some longer cool-downs for much higher impact skills in a couple places? Probably a bit more AoE damage as well, as Burgs are extremely single target focused at the moment.

    I'm also pondering a basic survivability skill for the class as a whole, to help them weather some of the deadlier incidental damage in group content despite their rather feeble armor and vitality pools when they are optimizing for DPS.

    I'm currently considering something along the lines of a stacking per-hit defense that substantially reduces the damage for hits that make it past BPE, but that pops counters off a slowly building stack, such that its only a modest benefit if you're fighting something one-on-one, and of almost no benefit if you've agro'd multiple opponents at once, but is of very high utility when you're just taking occasional high-power hits from something like Boss AoE attacks or momentary agro from a powerful add.

    Other tweaks that I'll probably be looking at would be to improve self-healing a little, buff a couple skills that really are falling too far behind the curve and just looking for QoL improvements that can be done quickly.

    Thoughts?

    -Vastin
    If you have the time please look here:
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...ovan-s-Request

    All the feedback from several forum threads and over 100 posts good and well informed together in 1.
    Last edited by MrGuidi; Jan 29 2019 at 03:38 PM.

  3. #3
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    Post

    Yes, I've been reading through the general feedback threads and pondering some of the things there as well.

    -Vastin

  4. #4
    Hi Vastin

    Obviously the core dps of the burg needs to be increased which you have addressed

    I like the idea of a stacking defense buff. And as far as self-healing is concerned, Mischievous Glee definitely needs updated.

    But. Since you are now looking at the burglar. Could you please take some time to go over the skill animations of the hobbit burglar. I'll just copy and paste what I have been saying over and over again:

    Cut down the animation of hobbit burglars Double-Edged Strike, Flashing blades, exposed throat, cunning attack, coup de grace, and Quite a Snag. All of these skills listed are significantly slower in animation and have longer frame rates as a hobbit burglar versus a human male burglar.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Yes, I've been reading through the general feedback threads and pondering some of the things there as well.

    -Vastin
    Any plans to do anything for yellow line? I personally think the biggest problem with burg is that it simply doesn't compete for any 3 or 6 man content, any plans to do something about that? Also don't forget to remove coup de grace cause it's a BS skill.
    Small question, are you going to be balancing all classes to come?
    44 Bulldog

  6. #6
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    As for your questions:

    In my opinion survivebillety is fine. After the changes friendlyhat did with evade even fine for pve now with +15% mits and a 50% moral heal you can use twice in a row on a short cooldown.
    If you wanna make our healing/survivebillety stronger then increase the base heal on the passiv crit/evade heal from red/blue trait. But really nothing major that is important.

    To summerize the most needed changes for you quick:

    1:fix animation and skill dmg problems:hobbit male and female burglers got different animations,same as hobbit vs men. aswell:flashing blade second attack devs lower then the crit by a huge amount,same as double edged strike second attack is somewhere broken.
    2:give us the old trick counter defense back from Lv50-85. The animation is the same,just readd the +3(if traited +6%) inc crit chance.
    3:add the pvp unseen set bonus as a legendary cap stone/passive bonus to suprise strike. Even +2% dev chance are fine for every suprise strike used(can stack 4 times max).
    4:Remove cdg.
    5:let trick dust spread all our bleeds(cunning attack mainly) for some aoe.
    6:make tricks stack with each other

  7. #7
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...ovan-s-Request this thread have really good suggestions i hope you look into it.

    but i also want to add...change "dust" debuff to anything else. double dust just seems too broken, esp that it works on the raid bosses as well. 2x36% miss chance, there is no need to remove CDG it is only broken in pvp but who cares about that.
    Please Listen to the feedback

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Hey folks, tis me Vastin, rolling through to see about a few nips and tucks to the Burglar.

    This is probably going to be even more abbreviated than the Minstrel pass, for two reasons:

    1) Your skills don't appear to be as out of balance with each other as the Minstrel's were - most of your skills seem to basically do what they are supposed to do, with varying degrees of utility.

    2) The wider issues of the class - how the trees interact with each other, or fail to - are simply out of scope for the time I can devote to it right now.

    Basically, a number of your mechanics work, but they don't necessarily synergise with each other all that well, which is a bit frustrating. You have a DPS cycle, but its somewhat weak, and appears to be moreso outside of the red line. Many of the class buffs and debuffs are quite powerful on paper, but often aren't very interesting - sort of fire and forget stuff that barely needs maintenance - and of course, Burglars are notoriously fragile.

    I can't address all those issues, but I'd like to focus on some DPS love and hopefully provide some meaningful survival effects.

    My initial thoughts are to try to buff the CORE dps of the class, rather than any one line specifically, through generally accessible skills and buffs. The main challenge here is that your core attacks generally have very short cool-downs, so I have to be careful not to make them sufficiently powerful that they render the specialty DPS skills redundant. I may end up trading off some longer cool-downs for much higher impact skills in a couple places? Probably a bit more AoE damage as well, as Burgs are extremely single target focused at the moment.

    I'm also pondering a basic survivability skill for the class as a whole, to help them weather some of the deadlier incidental damage in group content despite their rather feeble armor and vitality pools when they are optimizing for DPS.

    I'm currently considering something along the lines of a stacking per-hit defense that substantially reduces the damage for hits that make it past BPE, but that pops counters off a slowly building stack, such that its only a modest benefit if you're fighting something one-on-one, and of almost no benefit if you've agro'd multiple opponents at once, but is of very high utility when you're just taking occasional high-power hits from something like Boss AoE attacks or momentary agro from a powerful add.

    Other tweaks that I'll probably be looking at would be to improve self-healing a little, buff a couple skills that really are falling too far behind the curve and just looking for QoL improvements that can be done quickly.

    Thoughts?

    -Vastin
    I like the idea of improving the dps of our core skills, since that will benefits all three trait lines, and it's mostly sustained dps we lack I think. It would be great if you could have a look at how the different cunning attack bleeds stack, as right now it's annoying to not have a second critical hit add any dps.

    I know a lot of people really dislike cdg and ask for its removal, but I personally do enjoy that skill, and would like to keep it! Right now I don't think that skill is causing any issues.

    As for AOE skills, I enjoy the fact that burglars are a single target class, and I'm a bit wary to get AOE skills on my red burglar. But I think there are some cool ways to add some minor aoe to the yellow line mainly through tricks!

    The idea to introduce an extra defensive skill sounds really promising! I look forward to try such a skill on Bullroarer, when the time comes!

    As for healing I would prefer to see our existing healing skills scaled more properly (especially clever retort and mischievous delight!), rather than get additional heals

    Also would it be possible to allow us to stack reveal weakness twice, as initially mentioned in the patchnotes of the last changes?

    Right now it can't stack at all and that severely diminishes a second burglars chance to get invited into a raid! But it also makes duo burglarin' less fun!

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Hey folks, tis me Vastin, rolling through to see about a few nips and tucks to the Burglar.


    Thoughts?

    -Vastin
    Improve yellow group heal. As someone else has said, just scale it properly. Same with FM damage/healing effects.

    There was a fantastic idea in the improve burgs thread that a yellow burg could, by stacking Clever Retort trick removals, effectively build up a CJ himself, maybe using Exploit Opening as a finisher skill to stop the stack when he wanted to - e.g. if he stacked GGGBBB he'd give the effect of that FM without immobilising the mob, and the time it took him to do would make it not OP.

    A defence skill is a Band-Aid, basically saying "burgs are squishy, this is the best I can do to deal with it."

    Back in Mirkwood/Isengard, getting to a tier 6 debuff gamble put a WORLD of hurt on a mob and was the best debuff in the game. Make debuff gambles able to be applied (more or less) consistently on bosses and hey presto, blue burg has a role again.

    As for AOE damage, this could again be done with a guard/cappy-like bleed spreading mechanic - "Infectious Puzzlement" or something, spread by a combination of 2 skills (say, subtle stab followed by provoke) - that, because of its higher DOTs, blue would be best at but would be open to all 3 lines.
    105s: Aedfrith (HN), Aldnoth (CP), Brai (RK), Hrolfdan (MN), Aeldfryd (WD), Morriarty (CH), Aednoth (LM), Mishhar (BR), Hraldan (GR), Rummbold (BG). Tinies - Rumbelina (MN), Aenghus (CP)
    Rangers of Eriador (officer), ex-Snowbourn now Laurelin - A Noob for All Seasons

  10. #10
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    Heh. Kind of amusing to see the views on Coup De Grace. It's cooldown is obviously quite long for a pure DPS skill which is lame, but its animation time is pretty much average for the game as a whole (~1.5s) - it's just that some of the burg attacks are insanely fast by comparison.

    SStab, Gamblers Adv, and Imp Feint are all 0.35s, and a few of your self-buff skills are - somewhat oddly - actually instant with no animation or execution time whatsoever(!). This is all very nice for rippling off attack sequences very quickly, but extremely fast skills of this sort tend in practice to lead to execution 'dead times' because most lotro players aren't actually running at 180APM, and needing to move and evade effects in combat blows huge holes in the effective DPS of skills like this, compared to slower, hard hitting skills that don't suffer so much for their execution being delayed a second here and a second there.

    So I'll admit that I'm not currently looking to make the class more spammy in terms of basic attack rate, I'd prefer to improve the magnitude of the slower skills so that they can better leverage critical boosts and short attack windows. Speeding things up is just likely to bring the magnitude of your hits down and make it harder to keep up the APM needed to play the class effectively, esp in more complex fights - few if any of your skills root you in place, so mobility shouldn't be an issue even with your slower attacks.

    In any case, I think I can pretty easily make CDG a worthwhile skill without scrapping it, though it isn't really my focus ATM.

    -Vastin

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Heh. Kind of amusing to see the views on Coup De Grace. It's cooldown is obviously quite long for a pure DPS skill which is lame, but its animation time is pretty much average for the game as a whole (~1.5s) - it's just that some of the burg attacks are insanely fast by comparison.

    SStab, Gamblers Adv, and Imp Feint are all 0.35s, and a few of your self-buff skills are - somewhat oddly - actually instant with no animation or execution time whatsoever(!). This is all very nice for rippling off attack sequences very quickly, but extremely fast skills of this sort tend in practice to lead to execution 'dead times' because most lotro players aren't actually running at 180APM, and needing to move and evade effects in combat blows huge holes in the effective DPS of skills like this, compared to slower, hard hitting skills that don't suffer so much for their execution being delayed a second here and a second there.

    So I'll admit that I'm not currently looking to make the class more spammy in terms of basic attack rate, I'd prefer to improve the magnitude of the slower skills so that they can better leverage critical boosts and short attack windows. Speeding things up is just likely to bring the magnitude of your hits down and make it harder to keep up the APM needed to play the class effectively, esp in more complex fights - few if any of your skills root you in place, so mobility shouldn't be an issue even with your slower attacks.

    In any case, I think I can pretty easily make CDG a worthwhile skill without scrapping it, though it isn't really my focus ATM.

    -Vastin

    All nice things but nothing important for now.

    PLEASE for now focus on the important things as in:Yellow line tricks,debuffs and red line dps+blue debuff gamble bug+FIX BUGGED ANIMATION ON RACE AND GENDERS.
    Many many good suggestions are made everywhere!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedfrith View Post
    Back in Mirkwood/Isengard, getting to a tier 6 debuff gamble put a WORLD of hurt on a mob and was the best debuff in the game. Make debuff gambles able to be applied (more or less) consistently on bosses and hey presto, blue burg has a role again.
    We're trying to move away from class group roles being defined by massive group buffs/boss debuffs. That was the problem with Reveal Weakness in the first place. Having a buff that a character can throw that validates their raid slot if they toss it and go stand quietly in a corner is something that we're very much trying to get away from.

    Quite frankly they make the raids vastly harder to balance, as they generate nasty combinatoric math that we really can't sort out because the numbers swing so dramatically based on specific fellowship makeup.

    So if you're looking for a given class line to be defined by its ability to debuff a boss into a puddle of goo, I'm not going to be able to help you there - though I'm not planning any nerfs to their existing debuffs in the short term.

    -Vastin

  13. #13
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    Top priorities:

    a) Core DpS. Most DpS comes from main blue line in correlation with red. In one word, bleeds.
    a.1. values of bleeds should be increased and cunning attack bleed should be tweaked to stack consistently. Critical and devastating CAs overwrite previous ones.
    a.2 we desperately need a new blue line ability that applies damaging gamble (like blind bet does with debuffing one) other than gambler's strike. A burglar on main blue who wants to DpS has the rest of his arsenal crippled cause of gamble strike spam to cast the DoT.
    a.3. let aim have a chance to provide a devastate
    a.4. flashing blades 2nd attack is not affected by LI's multiplier.

    b) Debuffing Gamble
    b.1. tweak it to work consistently as a multiplicative debuff, like disable and LM debuffs. The percentages displayed are never accurate. Their calculation seems random and affected by target's type (elite, elite master etc.). No working formula at place. This has been the case since South Mirkwood. Not asking for a huge buff here. Just saying the ability needs to become usable again. It is not.
    b.2. increase duration so a supporting burglar on blue doesn't have to stay on the debuffed target forever. Again, not asking about anything huge. 5-10 more seconds will do.

    c) Off-heals.
    c.1. Since clever retort is probably connected to Fellowship Manoeuvres and those are in bad shape, at least increase Mischievous Glee healing output. Used to be noticeable.
    c.2. Bob and weave hasn't been updated. Its HoT is minor, even combined with the class legacy.

    d) Tricks
    d.1. Counter defense outdated and completely useless. The debuff remains interesting. The values are very, very behind. Right now it's rarely traited as a filler so cast Glee (which is also outdated).
    d.2. Dust in the eyes miss chance outdated and useless. Mobs in instances (especially bosses) have much more than 100% hit chance. Debuff needs a severe increase or change.
    d.3. Disable is still relevant but could use a slight increase to become more potent and let us compete LMs.

    PS: Trick and Trick removal damage is not even a thing. Just saying.

    Lastly, i think the community here will build you a statue in Bree if you address FMS/CJS values. It used to be an impressive, unique mechanic and the reason most people would roll the class. I understand this might need a lot of work, so i do not expect any references in this pass. Keep it in mind.


    I could go on and on spitting out fantasies, but, since you mentioned time is limited, i tried to realistically present the changes that would -in my opinion- bring the class back at an acceptable form. Oh, and new survival skill/trait bonus sounds very good. Right now we have to stack defenses in raids or risk getting one shot for a single miss step.
    Last edited by Demosthenes11; Jan 29 2019 at 05:42 PM.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Hey folks, tis me Vastin, rolling through to see about a few nips and tucks to the Burglar.

    ...

    Thoughts?

    -Vastin
    The survivability buff mechanic that you're proposing sounds very interesting, and I think I would like it a lot. Looking forward to hearing more about it, and if it is available in every trait line or just in one of them.

    I'm by no means an expert on Burgs, but the glaring issues that I see are as followed:
    • Overall:
      • Cunning Attack application bug, mentioned by many others elsewhere (even earlier in this thread).


    • Yellow:
      • Tricks are single target, rendering Burglar debuffs useless in AoE situations such as trash in instances.
      • Trickster is very underwhelming utility-wise, as it only applies to the next trick used. It should be reworked to give tricks real AoE utility for a substantial duration (think The Ancient Master yellow capstone on LM) so Burgs aren't completely overshadowed by LMs in 3/6mans as support.
      • Burg heals are too weak to even heal 3man instances, and when coupled with their distinct lack of any AoE, this makes them woefully unwanted when it comes to 3mans and most 6mans in both DPS and support roles.


    • Blue:
      • Blue doesn't have much purpose, as even with it being the "Bleed" traitline, it is directly competing with redline for purpose and viability, meaning one of these will almost always be unwanted. I'd recommend making blue a quasi-AoE line. It doesn't need to be jam-packed with AoE skills, but I think having very large increase to bleed durations would be helpful, as it would allow us to slowly ramp up AoE damage by applying bleeds to multiple targets at once while still limiting the strength of the bleeds on a single target. I'd also suggest that if this is implemented a way to cash out bleeds should be created, in case DPS needs to be halted on short notice. Maybe have Cashout work on bleeds as well as Gambles?
      • Debuffing Gamble needs to be made multiplicative if the current vision of the line is going to be kept. Right now with the insane mastery buffs enemies are getting, it is practically useless, with its [/B]40% debuff at tier 6 really ending up as a 7-8% debuff in t2 instances (probably lower in t3 instances).
      • Disabling Gamble needs to be reworked. I would like to see it get a 10s delay before the daze is applied (similar to Latent Poison on Weaver), and if the Gamble is reapplied (or refreshed with Gambler's Strike) before this delay finishes, it restarts the delay at 10s. Then the daze can be a 5s daze at tier 1, and increase by +2s for each tier, making it a 15s daze at tier 5. This way, Disabling Gamble can only be used to permanently lock down two targets instead of 5-10 targets, and it requires a lot more attention to timing to maintain it. Also, even if the 5s grace period to dazes from yellow is traited, this would not result in being able to permanently lock down a target with the gamble, as it will only be dazed 50% of the time at most when taking damage.
        • The one caveat to make this happen is that the delay has to restart when reapplied/refreshed/tiered up before the delay expires, but if the target is dazed without a delay present, the delay can exist alongside the daze.


    I think red is mostly fine to be honest. It just needing a few specific bugs fixed with skill damage multipliers and such.
    Last edited by ColMcStacky; Jan 29 2019 at 05:51 PM.

  15. #15
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    For god saying, leave Disabling Gamble alone. It's the only 100% potent ability left. I understand it's painful in PvMP, but let's face it. PvMP needs a patch of its own.
    Teucros/Psorokostaina/Ippokratis/Kervertros.
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  16. #16
    burgs are too bursty from stealth and have too little dps in longer fights.
    Easiest solution: nerf stealth damage bonusses (one traitpoint for +100% damage ###?) and let Feint Attack apply all/more stealth bonusses.

    I really like that on long-term, you plan to nerf debuffs&buffs generally, which would allow more freedom in group-composition generally, obviously only if classes are generally closer together in damage/heal/tankyness. But its a good goal to aim for imo. For example LMs just spamming their pet rotation and debuffs isnt really what I consider fun, but its totally necessary for raiding.

    And if you feel, that for long term, blueline should get a rework to do something else than melee-DPS and debuffs, I'd totally love that.
    Currently, blueline is just bad for DPS (compared to red), bad for debuffs (compared to yellow) and doesn't serve any real different thing besides being able to permamezz 10 targets, which shouldnt be possible for anyone, ever. It would be quite nice, to have either a line for tanking, ranged DPS or healing, as that would give burgs a viable spot for small-group-content.

    All types of cunning attack bleeds should stack, but that requires worse stealth-damage-bonusses to not result in OP dps.
    Last edited by Oelle; Jan 29 2019 at 05:57 PM.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    We're trying to move away from class group roles being defined by massive group buffs/boss debuffs. That was the problem with Reveal Weakness in the first place. Having a buff that a character can throw that validates their raid slot if they toss it and go stand quietly in a corner is something that we're very much trying to get away from.

    Quite frankly they make the raids vastly harder to balance, as they generate nasty combinatoric math that we really can't sort out because the numbers swing so dramatically based on specific fellowship makeup.

    So if you're looking for a given class line to be defined by its ability to debuff a boss into a puddle of goo, I'm not going to be able to help you there - though I'm not planning any nerfs to their existing debuffs in the short term.

    -Vastin
    If this is the case, and the reasoning behind not making Debuffing Gamble multiplicative, then may I suggest having it interact with similar debuffs?

    If, for example, Debuffing Gamble was made to overwrite/be overwritten by Fire/Frost-Lore from LM and/or Trick: Disable from other Burgs depending on which is strongest, that would be a pretty elegant solution to this issue that you're describing, in my opinion.

    Although maybe only have it interact with Trick: Disable instead of Fire/Frost-Lore as well, as having that work across different classes may be a bit weird, especially since LM debuffs are damage-type specific instead of just across the board.


    If this was implemented, it would allow blue Burg to shine again in raids. Blue Burg could be used to decrease a single target's damage slightly more than a yellow Burg, while a yellow Burg would be more stable at applying damage reducing debuffs to multiple targets at once. Also, yellow Burg has debuffs that increase incoming damage which are inaccessible to blue Burg, so each would still have its own unique time to bask in the spotlight.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    If this was implemented, it would allow blue Burg to shine again in raids. Blue Burg could be used to decrease a single target's damage slightly more than a yellow Burg, while a yellow Burg would be more stable at applying damage reducing debuffs to multiple targets at once. Also, yellow Burg has debuffs that increase incoming damage which are inaccessible to blue Burg, so each would still have its own unique time to bask in the spotlight.
    A blue burg can still trait for trick:enrage and use reveal weakness... they'd only lose 3% from quite a snag.
    If debuffing gamble became better than trick:disable, all current yellow burgs would just change to blue.
    The only benefit of yellow over blue would then be grouphealing... and no one takes burgs as healers.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    burgs are too bursty from stealth and have too little dps in longer fights.
    Easiest solution: nerf stealth damage bonusses (one traitpoint for +100% damage ###?) and let Feint Attack apply all/more stealth bonusses.

    I really like that on long-term, you plan to nerf debuffs&buffs generally, which would allow more freedom in group-composition generally, obviously only if classes are generally closer together in damage/heal/tankyness. But its a good goal to aim for imo. For example LMs just spamming their pet rotation and debuffs isnt really what I consider fun, but its totally necessary for raiding.

    I just hope that group-specific skills and contributions don't get nerfed to the point that different classes don't have specific jobs/roles in group content anymore.

    I'm with others in thinking that Burg survivability is currently pretty good, at least in yellow. Even in Red it is easy to trait into yellow for the added mits, and Touch and Go is a perfectly tuned skill for most of the unavoidable damage in Anvil. Burgs are considerably tougher than red-line wardens, who currently rely on old armor sets for the +3 dots that are essential to viable dps (leaving them with low armor rating), and with no passive trait bonuses to mitigation.

    IMO Burgs need more than a minor tweak to redline; I'm pretty sure I currently do more damage on my far-less-geared beorning. If we had reliable 2-minute dummies we could give some numbers to back that up, but it is inordinately tough to get good comparable dps numbers...

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    A blue burg can still trait for trick:enrage and use reveal weakness... they'd only lose 3% from quite a snag.
    If debuffing gamble became better than trick:disable, all current yellow burgs would just change to blue.
    The only benefit of yellow over blue would then be grouphealing... and no one takes burgs as healers.

    True, but a blue Burg does not have access to Quite a Snag and Trickster (and thus a second Trick: Enrage).

    Trick: Enrage could also be changed slightly to only give 2-3% incoming damage debuff when not in yellow, but have the missing component given to the sidebar in yellow, for example by adding it to Disabling Attacks. Likewise, there are many small adjustments like this that could be made to solidify each role for each traitline, while still making hybrid builds viable.


    Also, if heals in yellowline get fixed/scaled, then Burg heals would be nothing to scoff at, at least as an off-healer.

    With the changes I'm suggesting in the last two posts regarding this point, it would mean that blue Burg can debuff outgoing damage by 40%, and if it hybrids into yellow, can pick up +2% reduction to Reveal Weakness, and a single Trick: Enrage. Yellow Burg has access to 30% outgoing damage debuff (double Disable, as well as spreading this debuff across to multiple targets much more easily than in blue), or double Enrage. Also, the Appraising Eye trait in yellow could receive a buff when spec'd yellow to even better define yellow Burg's utility for increasing incoming damage on enemies.
    Last edited by ColMcStacky; Jan 29 2019 at 06:02 PM.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    We're trying to move away from class group roles being defined by massive group buffs/boss debuffs. That was the problem with Reveal Weakness in the first place. Having a buff that a character can throw that validates their raid slot if they toss it and go stand quietly in a corner is something that we're very much trying to get away from.

    Quite frankly they make the raids vastly harder to balance, as they generate nasty combinatoric math that we really can't sort out because the numbers swing so dramatically based on specific fellowship makeup.

    So if you're looking for a given class line to be defined by its ability to debuff a boss into a puddle of goo, I'm not going to be able to help you there - though I'm not planning any nerfs to their existing debuffs in the short term.

    -Vastin
    You risk turning everything into a DPS race with this approach, which is undoubtedly easier to balance, but can be just as boring as "standing in the corner".

    Burglar is defined as a debuffing/cc class on the wiki, and has historically been used as such through most of the game's history.

    It almost sounds like you're trying to turn burg into a champ clone (especially when you talk about adding AOE DPS).
    The Black Appendage of Sauron

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Heh. Kind of amusing to see the views on Coup De Grace. It's cooldown is obviously quite long for a pure DPS skill which is lame, but its animation time is pretty much average for the game as a whole (~1.5s) - it's just that some of the burg attacks are insanely fast by comparison.
    In any case, I think I can pretty easily make CDG a worthwhile skill without scrapping it, though it isn't really my focus ATM.

    -Vastin

    I'm sorry vastin, I like you, but you seem to have serious misconceptions about a few things.

    CDG is not a terrible skill, the reason it's so hated is because it's not only the most annoying thing in pvp (at least used to be) but also it literally one shots anything. If you want to test it, go on and go to stealth use focus and stand behind an enemy, guaranteed one shot. Yet this skill is useless in a pve situation (raid), so whats the point of it existing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    We're trying to move away from class group roles being defined by massive group buffs/boss debuffs. That was the problem with Reveal Weakness in the first place. Having a buff that a character can throw that validates their raid slot if they toss it and go stand quietly in a corner is something that we're very much trying to get away from.

    Quite frankly they make the raids vastly harder to balance, as they generate nasty combinatoric math that we really can't sort out because the numbers swing so dramatically based on specific fellowship makeup.

    So if you're looking for a given class line to be defined by its ability to debuff a boss into a puddle of goo, I'm not going to be able to help you there - though I'm not planning any nerfs to their existing debuffs in the short term.

    -Vastin
    But the reveal weakness change did nothing...all roles remain the same since abyss. To be frank, no one even took burgs for their reveal weakness specifically (unless you took 2 burgs) but burgs are needed for their disable, same reason why you need an lm for fire lore and fire mit debuffs.
    So if you're looking to move away from a "class group roles being defined by massive group buffs/boss debuffs." you need to massively re look all the classes and do sweeping changes and almost re-balance all content to make them doable. TBH, if you want I can give you the list as to why the classes that are meta right now are so.
    44 Bulldog

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    221
    Overall, I don't find survivability in group content to be a concern with the recent addition of the 50% heal on T&G. Ideally I would like it to heal around 20% instead of 50% on a shorter cooldown, much like Runekeepers Self-motivation. That should not really be a priority in my opinion though.


    On the DPS side of things;

    Cunning Attack bleeds absolutely needs to stack reliably, the current implementation is a joke, especially considering that a huge chunk of our damage comes from bleeds.
    Wonky crit-multiplies on crit-chains should be addressed.
    CDG is an absolute disgrace of a skill, in fact both capstone in red are borderline useless.
    The +100% damage from stealth from 'Sneak Attack' amounts to nothing ones various other modifies are applied, additionally it only applies to attacks that are actually used from stealth. It does not seem to work with feint attack (none of the traits enhancing stealth attacks seem to do).
    The Pseudo stealth from CDG is near impossible to actually pull of in group content. Adding insult to injury is the fact that the rewards is non-existent, should you manage to get the pseudo stealth bonus. I'm thinking changing it into something like Hunter's Heart Seeker (More damage and actually serves a purpose) with a slight cooldown reduction on successful use of another low cooldown skill would be an, at the least useful workaround (Get rid of the stealth gimmick).
    Finally, on the subject of AoE I believe incorporating Knives Out into some kind of AoE bleed spread is a viable route to go down, seeing as the skills is largely useless right now. The skill should ideally be accessible in all 3 specs if this is implemented.
    Last edited by Zlaughter; Jan 29 2019 at 06:17 PM.
    High Chieftain Zlaughter
    Commander Tarturin

    Original Challenger of Saruman | Original Challenger of Gothmog

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    The Shire
    Posts
    154
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    We're trying to move away from class group roles being defined by massive group buffs/boss debuffs. That was the problem with Reveal Weakness in the first place. Having a buff that a character can throw that validates their raid slot if they toss it and go stand quietly in a corner is something that we're very much trying to get away from.

    Quite frankly they make the raids vastly harder to balance, as they generate nasty combinatoric math that we really can't sort out because the numbers swing so dramatically based on specific fellowship makeup.

    So if you're looking for a given class line to be defined by its ability to debuff a boss into a puddle of goo, I'm not going to be able to help you there - though I'm not planning any nerfs to their existing debuffs in the short term.

    -Vastin
    I get your reasoning, but in practice I don't think any group stacked reveal weakness three times other than just for fun, as that would significantly decrease dps, as the burglars would do much less dps, than for example, a fire damage buffed hunter or runekeeper!

    At least reveal weakness is a debuff that benefits all classes equally!

    More importantly I do agree that a class should not get a spot in group content just because of a single skill, which is why it's important to have the yelllow burglars heals and trick to be up to par with other support classes, and blue and red dps up to par with other single target dps classes!

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    801
    Thank you for all the information with a chance to respond - this is much appreciated.

    At the risk of sounding like a broken record I ask, as I have for minstrel and hunter, that any changes consider how the class plays at lower levels and in landscape.

    Whether a burglar finds it a bit harder or a bit easier to get in a raid or group doing difficult content is far less important to most of us than how the class plays in general.

    Raiding is important - raiders spend more money than the average player - but while you correctly keep their concerns in mind please don't toss the majority of us under the bus.

    Same as my minstrel comments - I want the class fixed so it can raid and group properly but not at the expense of trashing it for landscape.

    None of your comments worry me and this is not a disagreement with any single one of them.

 

 
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