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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    An update to the fellowship manoeuvre

    What if tricksters single handedly could make a fellowship manoeuvre by a succession of fake manoeuvres known as retort?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    I'll have to elaborate

    Back to 2009, a few classes, but above all, the burglar could open a fellowship very reliable through several skills. This would then require each member to choose the manoeuvre. This took a great amount of time and often was detrimental, but the buff froms from the manoeuvre sometimes proved well-worth it. Today, the potency of FM are bad, while simultaneously, the loss of fellowship performance by focusing on a FM is also greater.

    Perhaps burglars could now build those manoeuvres on their own. They stack individual manoeuvres from trick removals/retort in combination to build up a large manoeuvre. For which the final manoeuvre itself could finally be triggered through opening a conjunction (fellowship manoeuvre) on a mob.

    Perhaps two burglars in a group could work together to speed up the more lengthy and complicated manoeuvres.

    This way, there is no time loss on a FS conjunction, and the burglar has in potential a very meaningful role again towards its origin in 2010.

    Example of steps.
    1. Disable
    2. Retort
    3. Apply heal to self/fellowship + set first manoeuvre to 'Green'
    4. Disable
    5. Retort
    6. Apply heal to self/fellowship + set second manoeuvre to 'Green'
    7. Disable
    8. Retort
    9. Apply heal to self/fellowship + set third manoeuvre to 'Green'
    10. Dust in the eyes
    11. Retort
    12. Apply power to self/fellowship + set fourth manoeuvre to 'Blue'
    13. Dust in the eyes
    14. Retort
    15. Apply power to self/fellowship + set fifth manoeuvre to 'Blue'

    16. Exploit opening: Instantly applies Pure of Heart Fellowship Manoeuvre

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Idea 2: a conjunction resets the cooldown of all tricks of a burglar. After which the individual tricks can initiate the pattern of the manoeuvre.

    Tricks become the individual fellowship mark.

    Enrage: Yellow
    Disable: Green
    Counter defence: red
    Dust: Blue

    We then spam these without a cooldown to form a combination, and larger fellowship Manoeuvres.
    Last edited by hfe; Jan 30 2019 at 05:03 AM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    This is a really interesting idea. Full marks for creativity. Unfortunately too many side cases to be implemented short-term. (Do you disallow random FM triggering during the buildup to prevent a shorter FM from going off? What if another player triggers an FM mid-buildup? Should multiple burgs contribute to the same FM or separate FMs? If the burg gets stunned, does the whole buildup get negated?)

    Maybe you could rework the warden's gambit system to do something like this though. Seems similar enough.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Cowplain, United Kingdom
    Like the thoughts in this although if the Draigoch riad is to remain meanginful it would need to work very differently to FMs as in that.

    Obviously the very simplest way forward is simply double (or treble or what have you) the various effects from the FMs we all know and love, such that dropping dps for 6 seconds is worthwhile. Back to the old excuse of "dis-proportionally helps more organised groups": there is a way around that one of course:-)

    All three traitlines need to be able to trigger something, but with some bias around the traitline in question to make each unique. Don't tie them to capstones or anything like that, simply which is the primary traitline which is unarguable, its the one where traits are standard cost.

    Red line. This is the least awkward, red being a burst dps line. The use of a FM trigger simply applies a large single damage hit proportional to the number of fellowship members joining in. If the Burglar uses Aim immediately before Exploit Opening the FM is single target. If the Burglar uses Knives Out before Exploit the effect is AoE. Combining Aim with Trip adds the bonus from striking from stealth to the single target, using Knives Out and Trip results in AoE damage and AoE 5s stun.

    Blue Line. This is the least predictable but may have the best results at maximum output. Gamblers have no AoE
    Addle + Exploit Debuffing: effect relates to the number of greens, 10% reduction in all resistances and mitigations per green symbol. Duration 5 + (3 per Gamble tier) seconds. Yes that is intended to be powerful at the highest level. The Gambler has one intentional trigger so wants the best possible value from it. Intentionally Hedge and Gamblers Strike are not involved as making it reliably very potent. Pulled on a boss its intentionally looking for the level of effect that a well timed FM had in the Rift or Helegrod in SoA days.
    Provoke + Exploit Disabling, effect relates to the number of yellows. 10% per yellow on all attack and movement speed, damage output, miss chance and B/P/E. Five second stun followed by (3 per Gamble tier)s with the debuff effects only.
    All In + Exploit, Damaging. 5% of mobs max morale per red dot, 1% per second of max morale per yellow dot. Bleed duration 5 + (3 per Gamble tier) seconds. Calls for a tactical choice between a big smackdown or a longer bleed. Entire group get the All In buffs and debuffs applied. Damage type is Burglar main hand. A 1M morale mob with 6 reds would be hit for 300K, or could bleed at 60K/second for 18 seconds which is just fatal to the mob. An 8M morale mob would take a single hit for 2.4M morale, or bleed out in just under 17 seconds with the best possible outcome. These numbers may need some adjustment to avoid trivialising content, but the mobs mitigations and resistances should apply in full, if the mitigation to, say, Beleriand damage type is 60% then the bleed cannot be fatal of itself at the start of a fight.

    I'm still musing on Yellow line options as this one should have the widest choices of worthwhile effects, covering areas defined by number of targets or simply an area similar to Ring of Fire with debuffs. An effect I am trying to think through as some form of FM spreads RW across multiple mobs for a period of time. AoE dders will love that one.

    Core elements include:
    Pressing a colour does not freeze you in place, but you cannot change your choice
    Burglar signals need some form of justification to encourage a Burglar to carry more than one
    Other classes skills that can trigger an FM remain working in the traditional manner (ie of limited use barring a stun)

    Possible downsides/implications
    The "lazy design" mechanic of mobs being immune to FMs will see more use and spread to lesser bosses and even some trash.
    A group with a Blue line Burglar could get very lucky and do far better than expected (but hint, look up "Gambler" in a dictionary!) and there may need to be more risks along with the All In one
    Will Marbles, randome chance and any use of Trip/Exploit alone simply trigger a normal conjunction? I think they should but marbles may be a special case as a Trip inducing skill (only affects Redl ine that way)
    Last edited by Mithithil; Feb 08 2019 at 07:29 AM.
    Mithithil Ithryndi

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Thank you guys for the thoughts!

    My gut feeling tells me that fixing the Fellowship Manoeuvre will bring the burglar back into a far better position as well as closer to their historical design.

    The flaws of current design:
    Potency is too weak
    Most players don't know how to use them effectively
    Many tougher mobs resistant to the knockdown and thus also the manoeuvre

    In the greater scheme of the conjunction, there are many paths to go with.
    1. The ideas I earlier presented are focused on an idea where only burglars can orchestrate the manoeuvre, as if a large gambit applying fellowship wide.
    1A: It could be a slow gambit, based on building fake retort manoeuvres finally opened by a conjunction in the end.
    1B: Or fast, where upon a conjunction the trick cooldowns are reset, and each trick sets a move in the conjunction path.

    Benefits of this:
    Burglars get more powerful in larger fellowships due to longer manoeuvres
    Burglar has a unique role of setting in a grand-scheme tactic
    Surpasses the requirement of a knockdown, and thus a fellowship manoeuvre should/could be used on bosses.

    2. Keeping to the old mechanic of steps initiated by individual fellowship members needs improvements:
    2A: Upon clicking on a step into the manoeuvre, you directly perform the individual fellowship step skill to self or enemy, and then can continue your regular rotation. The fellowship wide manoeuvre will trigger when timer passes.

    Benefit of this is that i'll require the fellowship to work as a team. Option 2a reduces the loss of time and attention needed for the manoeuvre, however the potency still has to be increased.
    However, I feel that the burden on the team is already on the high side.

    3. Burglar triggers fellowship manoeuvres, as gambits of their own, with effects based on the amount of people in the fellowship and the combination of skills/traitlines. Have a closer look onto Mithithil's post above.

    What is the best option? Honestly, it doesn't really matter. But burglars and fellowship manoeuveres are tied together in design and with signals. The fellowship manoeuvre is tied to us all in our racial. And it is due that they make a return to being useful one way or another.



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