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  1. #1

    Increase duration of mitigation buffs and potency of heals

    Hello, I'm going to keep it short and sweet.... yes we all like posts that get to the point.

    The Impressive Flourish line: Mitigation/Critical defense buff only lasts 30 seconds UNLESS you have an un-imbued LI, which in my opinion is pointless to have un-imbued, which will make the buff last 40
    seconds. still, to me that isn't very long.

    War cry line: Basically same problem, 30 second duration, but no legacy to increase duration and it revolves around b/p/e (block parry evade). Again 30 seconds is not enough.

    Persevere line: 15 seconds duration on the heal itself is fine, but the heal can be a tad bigger to match the 200k+ morale pool. The buff is like the war cry line, but instead of it being evade on 2 skills and b/p/e on one skill, it's all block and partial block chance... again it lasts only 30 seconds. Also no legacy on imbued/un-imbued to increase duration.

    Someone mentioned several days ago he wants a 1 minute duration. Which isn't a bad start. give us that 1 minute duration than add an imbued legacy that increases the duration and potentially the potency of such skills. i.e heal potency, mitigation potency, b/p/e potency... the numbers don't have to be high on the potency... make it a secondary legacy but have the duration the main one.

    SIDE NOTE: Exaltation of battle aka leaches should be increased by like 300% the heal literally does nothing on a morale pool of 200k+ health....

    If I'm missing anything please add

    As always have a good lotro day.

    --Xchantz

  2. #2
    Also i understand we have some legacy that increase heal potency (conviction and shield gambit healing). I also know we have war cry evade rating buff, but my point was increase the healing even more and increase other b/p/e rating and mits

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by red_mustang_1994 View Post
    Hello, I'm going to keep it short and sweet.... yes we all like posts that get to the point.

    The Impressive Flourish line: Mitigation/Critical defense buff only lasts 30 seconds UNLESS you have an un-imbued LI, which in my opinion is pointless to have un-imbued, which will make the buff last 40
    seconds. still, to me that isn't very long.

    War cry line: Basically same problem, 30 second duration, but no legacy to increase duration and it revolves around b/p/e (block parry evade). Again 30 seconds is not enough.

    Persevere line: 15 seconds duration on the heal itself is fine, but the heal can be a tad bigger to match the 200k+ morale pool. The buff is like the war cry line, but instead of it being evade on 2 skills and b/p/e on one skill, it's all block and partial block chance... again it lasts only 30 seconds. Also no legacy on imbued/un-imbued to increase duration.

    Someone mentioned several days ago he wants a 1 minute duration. Which isn't a bad start. give us that 1 minute duration than add an imbued legacy that increases the duration and potentially the potency of such skills. i.e heal potency, mitigation potency, b/p/e potency... the numbers don't have to be high on the potency... make it a secondary legacy but have the duration the main one.

    SIDE NOTE: Exaltation of battle aka leaches should be increased by like 300% the heal literally does nothing on a morale pool of 200k+ health....

    If I'm missing anything please add

    As always have a good lotro day.

    --Xchantz
    Agreed. I don't think they will "fix" the tank warden during this level cap though

  4. #4
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    Originally those buffs were around a minute, then we got an update and they were cut to 12 seconds, after a lot of pleading with the dev it was increased to 20 seconds then 30 seconds during another "update". I just levelled another Warden to 50 on the legendary server and mid game heals are pathetic.

    A 12 year old game with most classes in a broken state and unable to fulfill their primary roles (burg, minstrel, tank warden) is becoming tiresome. How many time has the "core" dps/heal/mitigations ratings been overhauled. I just wish they would pick one and stick with it. So sad that after all this "development" the game is in a sorry state.

  5. #5
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    I don't think they'll ever do that, increase duration, that is.

    I know, I know, never say never. But the tanking Warden has been in a so-so to sorry back to so-so/sorry since HD. I don't even volunteer to tank with PUGS anymore. One screw-up and you're a bad tank for life. It doesn't help that everybody is in a hurry to get everything done as fast as possible. A good kin would help, but most raiding kins aren't recruiting publicly anymore, at least not on my server. And I am rather certain that they would prefer an alt, and not my Warden main if they were. That's the feel on the ground I have picked up, and is purely anecdotal.

    We have to work very hard to tank. And if we miss a gambit through mistake - or most likely lag - the whole rotation can be, and often is, shot. And then duration wears off, and it's start over again. I love tanking, I know how to do it, but we have to work very hard to hold aggro, and keep our buffs up.

    Duration would be, imo, 70-80% of the way there towards making blue-line wardens desirable in groups again. As it stands right now, Guards rule. That is another reason I don't believe that they'll work the tanking Warden to a better state, e.g., the Guardian class.

    The downfall of the tanking Warden began with the Erebor raid cluster at level 85. That's when Guards got a huge overhaul, one that was necessary imo, but still. One class benefits, another class gets short-shrift.

    I'm not even sure why I'm playing this game anymore, tbh. It's been a long time since that release.

    And I won't even get into trait trees. Bring back DC as a five click gambit, and a capstone skill. Bring back Deflection, a three click gambit, that allows threat drop.

    ahh well, sorry just had to rant a bit
    True character is not something shaped from without, or put on, but it is something radiating from within

  6. #6
    For me warden need a complete revamp for tanking line but here's the issue with balancing warden:
    Issue 1: PvP. A tank class with self heals and avoids with some DPS capacity of geared hybrid will be a godmode class in moors.
    Issue 2: People who do not have or know the class in depth will ask for nerfs because X warden can solo glimmerdeep T2 in 3 hours and if their hunter cannot do it then wardens need a need.
    Issue 3: skill gap. Warden got a steep learning curve and a huge difference between a good one and an average one. Meaning that if you balance for the mean or even for the top 20% , 5% best wardens will be overpowered while most wardens still being bad for tanking.

    Issue 1 should be addressed with PvP specific changes instead of global adjustments.
    Issue 2 should be addressed by just ignoring those posts, like the posts saying rk heal 40-50k single target or the posts saying hunter does 500k hits in landscape solo. These posts just show jealousy and ignorance and are a blatant lie. And honestly if a warden can solo an instance that can be done usually with 1 tank 1 LM and 1 DPS in 30-40 mins but he soloing takes 2 hours maybe there's not a problem there, it's just a self imposed challenge and not game breaking in any way since doing 3 man is pretty much the same as doing it with another tank class.
    Issue 3 can not be addressed and only way to solve it would be to aim for the highest end (20-15%) of skill player so average players can compete but will be mediocre tanks but skilled players will be on par with guards and captains tanks.

    Please FIX TRAIT TREES AND LEGACIES OF WARDEN, THEY ARE A JOKE (and even offensive how you chose to ignore those requests for the last 5 years).

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    For me warden need a complete revamp for tanking line but here's the issue with balancing warden:
    Issue 1: PvP. A tank class with self heals and avoids with some DPS capacity of geared hybrid will be a godmode class in moors.
    Issue 2: People who do not have or know the class in depth will ask for nerfs because X warden can solo glimmerdeep T2 in 3 hours and if their hunter cannot do it then wardens need a need.
    Issue 3: skill gap. Warden got a steep learning curve and a huge difference between a good one and an average one. Meaning that if you balance for the mean or even for the top 20% , 5% best wardens will be overpowered while most wardens still being bad for tanking.

    Issue 1 should be addressed with PvP specific changes instead of global adjustments.
    Issue 2 should be addressed by just ignoring those posts, like the posts saying rk heal 40-50k single target or the posts saying hunter does 500k hits in landscape solo. These posts just show jealousy and ignorance and are a blatant lie. And honestly if a warden can solo an instance that can be done usually with 1 tank 1 LM and 1 DPS in 30-40 mins but he soloing takes 2 hours maybe there's not a problem there, it's just a self imposed challenge and not game breaking in any way since doing 3 man is pretty much the same as doing it with another tank class.
    Issue 3 can not be addressed and only way to solve it would be to aim for the highest end (20-15%) of skill player so average players can compete but will be mediocre tanks but skilled players will be on par with guards and captains tanks.

    Please FIX TRAIT TREES AND LEGACIES OF WARDEN, THEY ARE A JOKE (and even offensive how you chose to ignore those requests for the last 5 years).
    On 1: Maybe take away the focus of the self healing class...buff it just A LITTLE ...OR take it away completely and give these gambits +mits and +inc healing too. +5% for a big gambit should be okay (talking about the shield spear line not the morale tap gambits)
    On 2: Might not be an issue anymore if they took the focus of the self heals
    On 3: This is actually counts for every class. Some champs are better DDs than many RKs...Some wardens are already better than some guards...etc pp. It is true that the warden is diffucult to master though.

    Tbh I LOVE self healing but this is what breaks our neck in terms of balancing. It is the reason why we got nerfed. Morale taps of some gambits could get a buff without makuing us OP though.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    For me warden need a complete revamp for tanking line but here's the issue with balancing warden:
    Issue 1: PvP. A tank class with self heals and avoids with some DPS capacity of geared hybrid will be a godmode class in moors.
    Issue 2: People who do not have or know the class in depth will ask for nerfs because X warden can solo glimmerdeep T2 in 3 hours and if their hunter cannot do it then wardens need a need.
    Issue 3: skill gap. Warden got a steep learning curve and a huge difference between a good one and an average one. Meaning that if you balance for the mean or even for the top 20% , 5% best wardens will be overpowered while most wardens still being bad for tanking.

    Issue 1 should be addressed with PvP specific changes instead of global adjustments.
    Issue 2 should be addressed by just ignoring those posts, like the posts saying rk heal 40-50k single target or the posts saying hunter does 500k hits in landscape solo. These posts just show jealousy and ignorance and are a blatant lie. And honestly if a warden can solo an instance that can be done usually with 1 tank 1 LM and 1 DPS in 30-40 mins but he soloing takes 2 hours maybe there's not a problem there, it's just a self imposed challenge and not game breaking in any way since doing 3 man is pretty much the same as doing it with another tank class.
    Issue 3 can not be addressed and only way to solve it would be to aim for the highest end (20-15%) of skill player so average players can compete but will be mediocre tanks but skilled players will be on par with guards and captains tanks.

    Please FIX TRAIT TREES AND LEGACIES OF WARDEN, THEY ARE A JOKE (and even offensive how you chose to ignore those requests for the last 5 years).
    Issue 1 is a specific moors balancing act that should be countered by creep -inc healing debuffs, and therefore a moot point from the freep side.

    Issue 2 is a community problem and has been ongoing for years. Originally, the warden was awesome, a little OP. They were able to solo incredible stuff though it took an extremely long time. So, after the community threw a fit they severely nerfed the life leach skills. Solo self heals buffs and dps were still ok, but then the community continued to throw a fit, and self heals were effectively removed. So then, the warden having the mits of a hunter was unable to tank any new content at all, Turbine did the partial BPE system which was worse, and wound up hurting warden tanking even more. THEN instead of actually trying to fix anything the warden was reworked into a spear-shield gambit single target bleed dps class. This was outcries op (it really was this go around) and spear-shield bleeds got nerfed. So here we are today with mediocre warden tanking and fist-spear light damage dots.

    Issue 3 ties directly into all of the above.

    Regarding 5 year old traits, Beorning didn’t receive a single class update beyond one or two minor bug fixes for the last 5 years. You can also fit all your legacies for all three specs on one LI. This is because there’s a total of IIRC 9 egacies per item, and at least half are useless. (The class was never complete on release as well of course) Only saying this for a frame of reference. Sorry for the long history, but I wanted to illustrate how this one class went from a great place with many many usable skills to select from, down to a single line (fist-spear).

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Hildilas View Post
    On 1: Maybe take away the focus of the self healing class...buff it just A LITTLE ...OR take it away completely and give these gambits +mits and +inc healing too. +5% for a big gambit should be okay (talking about the shield spear line not the morale tap gambits)
    On 2: Might not be an issue anymore if they took the focus of the self heals
    On 3: This is actually counts for every class. Some champs are better DDs than many RKs...Some wardens are already better than some guards...etc pp. It is true that the warden is diffucult to master though.

    Tbh I LOVE self healing but this is what breaks our neck in terms of balancing. It is the reason why we got nerfed. Morale taps of some gambits could get a buff without makuing us OP though.
    Also there's a problem with wardens concerning legacies and traits, since they are mostly useless class effectiveness resides in the starlits and stats instead of legacies. Maybe if they removed some of the base heal/damage/defences from base skills and add it into legacies you would have 6-7 useful legacies per weapon and you would not have dps+survivability at the same time, particularly if they make traits meaningful too. I have no issues in a tank self healing a lot, traits+ legacies being so useless usually makes that balance hard, just remove rk DPS from traits and legacies and add it to base damage/healing, you'll end up with the same problem

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    Also there's a problem with wardens concerning legacies and traits, since they are mostly useless class effectiveness resides in the starlits and stats instead of legacies. Maybe if they removed some of the base heal/damage/defences from base skills and add it into legacies you would have 6-7 useful legacies per weapon and you would not have dps+survivability at the same time, particularly if they make traits meaningful too. I have no issues in a tank self healing a lot, traits+ legacies being so useless usually makes that balance hard, just remove rk DPS from traits and legacies and add it to base damage/healing, you'll end up with the same problem
    Yeah but buffing legacies should not fix a class right? I agree that they are pathetic but this is not the core problem. A buff would help though.
    I also don't have issues with a self healing tank but many others do. And they will QQ If we are able to heal ourselves better again. As the devs themselves said: MITS are everything in the game for a tank. So longer defensive buffs with more and higher % mits would actually help us I think. THey cannot make us into a heavy class to solve this problem.

    BTW I just read on the guardian forum that they are going for heavy raid armor pieces with % mits and medium armour pieces with % mits. Sth I totally forgot about. This is another disadvantage for the warden. We can go for the healing sets ;D YAY

    ps: Actually Devs responded to Mini and Burg threads in the general forum...and startet to "tweak" these classes shortly after...Maybe someone should start a warden thread there.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    Issue 1: PvP. A tank class with self heals and avoids with some DPS capacity of geared hybrid will be a godmode class in moors.
    Not to diminish your observation for PvP by any means, but please, PvE tanking is a complete mess. I'd rather them address their limited resources to PvE if we have any hope of making our wardens better.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    Issue 3 can not be addressed and only way to solve it would be to aim for the highest end (20-15%) of skill player so average players can compete but will be mediocre tanks but skilled players will be on par with guards and captains tanks.
    I'm sorry, but no.

    A premium class that you have to pay extra for... which is also much harder to play... should have a higher potential, when played well.

    The best warden should be the best tank in the game.
    Thurallor, Warden of Landroval
    Author of plugins: SequenceBars, Reminders, others

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Thurallor View Post
    I'm sorry, but no.

    A premium class that you have to pay extra for... which is also much harder to play... should have a higher potential, when played well.

    The best warden should be the best tank in the game.
    While I agree on wardens skill gap being important and thus best wardens not really should but will be best class at their role...I cannot agree on what you said, warden is not hard to play, warden is just busy to play because you must never stop chaining gambits and a minor mistake on a gambit can screw up your rotation entirely but wardens who are used to it and didn't Valar it just know every gambit without even thinking on what builders, they just know them. And basically there's a huge difference between good and bad wardens but playing an average/decent warden is not hard at all.
    And about paying extra... Well, first you should buy Moria to level a warden and then you got warden and rune keeper for free. Even if you skip it... Just by leveling it you end up earning more lotro points in just the first week than warden class costs, you're talking as if you needed to be VIP to play warden.

  14. #14
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    I still think that all classes should be equivalent in their roles - i mean that it shouldnt matter if i take hunter or RK for ranged dps role, if i take cappy/warden/guard/beorn for tanking role, if i take RK or minstrel for healing etc. What i love about lotro is its uniquenes of classes, i played and love them all. But i hate when leader says: "sorry this update we prefer only RKs for ranged dps and minstrels for heals". I invested to my classes a lot of time and effort (if not money) and i want play them in endgame content.

    Commander Liliam - the Warden
    Evernight

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilda View Post
    I still think that all classes should be equivalent in their roles - i mean that it shouldnt matter if i take hunter or RK for ranged dps role, if i take cappy/warden/guard/beorn for tanking role, if i take RK or minstrel for healing etc. What i love about lotro is its uniquenes of classes, i played and love them all. But i hate when leader says: "sorry this update we prefer only RKs for ranged dps and minstrels for heals". I invested to my classes a lot of time and effort (if not money) and i want play them in endgame content.
    Only that cappys and beos were not meant to be main tanks anyway :3 They are supporting classes. But that is Messed up since forever so...

    I think they got the healers right at the Moment. We are taking all 3 healers to heal the T2 raid. 2 minis or 1 minj 1 RK, or 1 Mini 1 Beo etc .That is great IMO.

    I Just hate that they actually do not need to do very much to fix the warden...longer buffs, a panic and higher mits or Inc healing through our def gambits. That would be enough for now.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Hildilas View Post
    Only that cappys and beos were not meant to be main tanks anyway :3 They are supporting classes. But that is Messed up since forever so...

    I think they got the healers right at the Moment. We are taking all 3 healers to heal the T2 raid. 2 minis or 1 minj 1 RK, or 1 Mini 1 Beo etc .That is great IMO.

    I Just hate that they actually do not need to do very much to fix the warden...longer buffs, a panic and higher mits or Inc healing through our def gambits. That would be enough for now.
    Beo was entirely meant to be a main tank. Cappy was always meant to be a strong supporting offtank. Bear healing is weak.

    There was a time years and years ago when wardens WERE the best tanks in the game. Then the guard mains threw fits and more fits, and turbine said “no more warden tanks” They repeatedly got nerfed for like 5 years.
    Last edited by dsltn07; Feb 12 2019 at 03:26 PM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    Beo was entirely meant to be a main tank. Cappy was always meant to be a strong supporting offtank. Bear healing is weak.

    There was a time years and years ago when wardens WERE the best tanks in the game. Then the guard mains threw fits and more fits, and turbine said “no more warden tanks” They repeatedly got nerfed for like 5 years.
    No...Take a Look at the character creation and the official characters page.
    Only wardens and guards were meant to be Main tanks.
    Even though they threw these roles away IT IS still the official class role when someone would research lotro classes.

    Beo was meant to be dd/supporter.But Well.......
    Also: Beo healing is not weak. It is just not fluent. We have a Beo healing our raid.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Hildilas View Post
    No...Take a Look at the character creation and the official characters page.
    Only wardens and guards were meant to be Main tanks.
    Even though they threw these roles away IT IS still the official class role when someone would research lotro classes.

    Beo was meant to be dd/supporter.But Well.......
    Also: Beo healing is not weak. It is just not fluent. We have a Beo healing our raid.
    The “official” class listings haven’t been updated since each class’s release. Bears have been main healers for years which was not intended, it was just the least broken of the 3 trait lines. When Vastin allowed bear tanks to stay in bear form it mostly fixed the severe problems they used to have from poor trait design (still existing).

    “Fluent”? What? Yes you can heal T2 with a bear, you’ll get by. It’s the same as the champ with 50k dps claiming he wasn’t carried through T2 anvil. Realistically bear healers don’t have anything special to offer anymore. No cooldowns, mediocre heals, no fellow buffs.

    Pssst...(Wardens kept getting nerfed because guards claimed they were the only class that should be allowed to tank. Your narrow-mindedness is what killed warden tanking)

 

 

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