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  1. #1
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    PvP - Legendary Servers

    While we're in the middle of #LOGFOR6, I might as well make it absolutely clear about some issues on the PvP aspect of the boycott to SSG.

    Lots of us want PvP on the Limited Servers. Now, you've currently not told us why you've not included PvP so far, and you've not told us definitively if you ever will. If you can't, just tell us, because it's just dishonest to keep dragging people along.

    But if you can and you're worried about certain things, I'll open up some ideas that I'd personally be comfortable with.

    - Leave the scaling on, we'll just have to fight as scaled Freeps, but we just want that fresh server start and something to do outside of PvE.
    - Don't bother changing resource nodes, we can't gather them anyway and they're useless until higher levels so it doesn't matter.
    - Armour sets don't need to change, they can just be Moors only since we'll drop level when leaving the Moors anyway and they must surely automatically unequip, right (not sure how this works for scaling on live as it is, but whatever it is do that)?

    I can't see any other reason to keep PvP away from people. I'm basically asking for what live already has but for a fresh server, it can't have that much more to it. But if it is, just talk to us. You've already told us we're not getting it in Moria and I don't see much hope for anything after that, either, so why not just be straight with us and say why you're unable to do it? It would clear up a lot of speculation.

    Edit: non-PvPers need not bother posting, we already get that you hate other people having fun.

    Give Anor and Ithil PvMP.
    Before making a complaint here, ask yourself this: "Am I still giving SSG money?". If the answer is yes, there's no point complaining.

  2. #2
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    1) This is a public forum. If you don't want certain people to reply, you should probably engage in private discussion with them instead. This is how public forums work, you know...

    2) Alas, it is not happening... today's "Cord of the Ring" stream gave a more detailed answer on the PvP question:"

    Q: Will PvMP be implemented on the Legendary Servers?

    A: "That is a very good question, one I do not have a definitive answer for today. I will say this: It is definitely not happening for the next couple of updates, I really don't know if I see it happening in 2019. But, I think a time to do that as well might be when we get to a higher level cap on the legendary servers. So I would not say it is accurate to say it will not be coming, it is just not something we are going to roll out in the near future. If that changes I will let you know, but I am just being realistic".

    Quoted the words as he said them. So there it is: very likely no PvMP on the Legendary servers in 2019, but MAYBE when the level cap is set at a higher cap some time in the future.

    So with that said:

    Q: Is this a deal breaker?

    NO: Click on that Lotro icon, See you on the Legendary Servers in the glorious PvE world!
    YES: Let us know what game you will try next, I am always up for trying new games.....
    Last edited by maartena; Jan 25 2019 at 02:04 PM.
    Moved from Riddermark to Arkenstone on 9/29/2015!
    -----
    Disclaimer: The definition of "Soon™" is based solely on SSG's interpretation of the word, and all similarities with dictionary definitions of the word "Soon™" are purely coincidental and should not be interpreted as a time frame that will come to pass within a reasonable amount of time.

  3. #3
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    Cordovan said earlier it's not likely for 2019:

    https://clips.twitch.tv/BusyRamshackleCheetahLitty
    Aradhel
    50 Minstrel - Officer of The Last Alliance - Anor
    Challenger of the Rift - Challenger of Helegrod

  4. #4
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    I don't see any reason why at, say, 85 cap they would suddenly decide that NOW is a good time to add PvMP to the legendary servers. It's not coming. Accept it and move on.

  5. #5
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    It COULD be that with the current code that balances level 100+ creeps vs level 100+ freeps (I don't think it changed much since level 100, but I could be wrong) is a lot better vs level 50 freeps vs level 50 creeps using the same code (and trait trees).

    As the current code makes a level 50 freep more powerful and more survivable than a level 50 freep from 2007, it could very well be that if you manage to scale creeps using the current code vs the freeps on the current code..... that there is a huge unbalance between the two..... and that the balance is BETTER at level 85+ because that is when the trait trees and many other class changes were introduced that exist to this day. This is just a hunch, but Cordovan's comments do make me think that the current code simply wouldn't work or be balanced scaling it down to level 50 creeps and freeps.... and that it is too much work to do it now.

    Who knows....

    But at least we have an answer. Whether it is a deal breaker or not remains to be seen. It isn't for me....
    Moved from Riddermark to Arkenstone on 9/29/2015!
    -----
    Disclaimer: The definition of "Soon™" is based solely on SSG's interpretation of the word, and all similarities with dictionary definitions of the word "Soon™" are purely coincidental and should not be interpreted as a time frame that will come to pass within a reasonable amount of time.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by NyblingN View Post
    Cordovan said earlier it's not likely for 2019:

    https://clips.twitch.tv/BusyRamshackleCheetahLitty
    Then it's not happening at all but they're hoping to string some people along by leaving it slightly open. RIP Limited Servers, you've been left to the casuals and festival fairies.

    Give Anor and Ithil PvMP.
    Before making a complaint here, ask yourself this: "Am I still giving SSG money?". If the answer is yes, there's no point complaining.

  7. #7
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    I'm posting the following for a kin member who is unable to post on the Forums.

    ---------------------------------------------

    This doesn't want to be anything turning into the usual, sterile debate.

    It is just sharing what might prove itself to be a solution to our issue with the non-viability of PvMP implementation on the Legendary Servers.

    This is not, I think, about balance (when exactly did someone care for it?) neither is about LI's and Imbued LI's.

    As I understood it, SSG cannot afford/isn't willing to have all the regular servers where Moors/Osgi mobs have certain values for 120, while LS PvMP would require different coding/scaling/whatever, to be updated every 4 months.

    There's no solution to that, unless 1) they plan to give us PvMP once the level cap on Legendary's will have caught up with cap on regular servers or 2) the problem gets addressed and solved in a way that wouldn't sow the seeds for future issues when it comes to coding(updating.

    Here's the solution I thought about.

    1: Leave the Moors as they are.

    2: Scale the Freeps to 120 upon entering PvMP areas. The tools to do that are already in place (think about the Epic Battles)

    3: Gate some of the Creeps skills/feats in order to compensate for the Freep's actually poor amount of traitpoints available.
    Now (4) comes the issue: How can Freeps compete against level 120 Creeps? Scaling isn't enough.

    Well, NEVER AGAIN (U21 anyone?) should existent gear gets "scaled" to cap level. We saw what happened.

    Instead, just put a "Legendary PvMP Barterer" in GV/Osgi.

    What is it for?

    It can provide any scaled Legendary Player with a basic set. A purple one, let's say, with no set bonuses, slighty poorer stats and even 1 slot less compared to the Teal PvMP Essence gear available on Live.

    It can also sell Might/Agi/Will Jewellery, lvl 120 (therefore impossible to use on legendary servers once PvMP areas are left)

    And it can sell (for Silver, Gold, Marks, Meds, Whatever) even basic essences: that means basic level 120 ones.

    In time, players can earn enough Commendations to:

    1 – Earn and barter their "regular" Teal PvMP socketed armour.
    2 – Barter said "basic pvmp-only essences" for improved versions (teal, gold) via adding Commendations to the exchange.

    Am I right or not when I say that this would allow PvMP to be available on Anor/Ithil too and, most important, with ZERO impact on the whole servers?

    I'd take an official response with most gratitude!

    -Angbohr
    Aradhel
    50 Minstrel - Officer of The Last Alliance - Anor
    Challenger of the Rift - Challenger of Helegrod

  8. #8
    I’m sure it’s extremely likely to be on their board for things to find a solution for. They haven’t found a solution yet, they told us they haven’t found a way to do it yet. You’d still be upset if they said “NO” 6 months ago and announce in another 3 months that hey, they found a way to make it work. Because they told you no before they’d have “lied to you”. Just like now, they’re stringing you along by saying “No we are not able to do that”.

    You’d have some ground to stand on if they previously said it was planned content. As it is, they never said that.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by NyblingN View Post
    I'm posting the following for a kin member who is unable to post on the Forums.

    ---------------------------------------------

    This doesn't want to be anything turning into the usual, sterile debate.

    It is just sharing what might prove itself to be a solution to our issue with the non-viability of PvMP implementation on the Legendary Servers.

    This is not, I think, about balance (when exactly did someone care for it?) neither is about LI's and Imbued LI's.

    As I understood it, SSG cannot afford/isn't willing to have all the regular servers where Moors/Osgi mobs have certain values for 120, while LS PvMP would require different coding/scaling/whatever, to be updated every 4 months.

    There's no solution to that, unless 1) they plan to give us PvMP once the level cap on Legendary's will have caught up with cap on regular servers or 2) the problem gets addressed and solved in a way that wouldn't sow the seeds for future issues when it comes to coding(updating.

    Here's the solution I thought about.

    1: Leave the Moors as they are.

    2: Scale the Freeps to 120 upon entering PvMP areas. The tools to do that are already in place (think about the Epic Battles)

    3: Gate some of the Creeps skills/feats in order to compensate for the Freep's actually poor amount of traitpoints available.
    Now (4) comes the issue: How can Freeps compete against level 120 Creeps? Scaling isn't enough.

    Well, NEVER AGAIN (U21 anyone?) should existent gear gets "scaled" to cap level. We saw what happened.

    Instead, just put a "Legendary PvMP Barterer" in GV/Osgi.

    What is it for?

    It can provide any scaled Legendary Player with a basic set. A purple one, let's say, with no set bonuses, slighty poorer stats and even 1 slot less compared to the Teal PvMP Essence gear available on Live.

    It can also sell Might/Agi/Will Jewellery, lvl 120 (therefore impossible to use on legendary servers once PvMP areas are left)

    And it can sell (for Silver, Gold, Marks, Meds, Whatever) even basic essences: that means basic level 120 ones.

    In time, players can earn enough Commendations to:

    1 – Earn and barter their "regular" Teal PvMP socketed armour.
    2 – Barter said "basic pvmp-only essences" for improved versions (teal, gold) via adding Commendations to the exchange.

    Am I right or not when I say that this would allow PvMP to be available on Anor/Ithil too and, most important, with ZERO impact on the whole servers?

    I'd take an official response with most gratitude!

    -Angbohr
    The best and most well reasoned suggestion post I’ve seen yet. Only downside I could see would be implementing the scaled gear barterer, and the respective dev time to maintain the moors with the creep scaling/gating abilities. Overall though, best suggestion I’ve seen

  10. #10
    This game rips my heart out on a seemingly daily basis by the clueless behavior of many individuals who seem to be involved and the disconnect from what myself and many of my friends want. Will definitely be on to other things by the time of waiting a WHOLE CALENDAR YEAR for something that for many was an instant draw to when the game came out and one of the fonder memories of SoA all the way through RoI.

  11. #11
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    The quick and dirty way to get PvMP working on the Legendary server would indeed be just to enable it, let everyone scale up to 120 using existing code, and everyone would just start at rank 1 and let the carnage begin.

    But is that what people really want? I think there is probably a fairly large group that doesn't want THAT kind of PvP, they want the PvP "as it was", more or less at level 50, 60, 65 and onwards.

    There are going to be problems with either solution. The scaling up of level 50s and their armor to 120 might not have the desired result.... either they become OP because of scaling errors, or severly underpowered because they still only have 34 trait points to spend and are missing a lot of skills and traits.

    On the other side, scaling everything to level 50 or 60 when moria gets released using the current code might also create a massive balance issue. Doing this would probably make freeps completely overpowered, especially if they are using essence armor and stack up on mitigations. Creeps wouldn't stand a chance.

    My guess as to why they want to possibly do it at a later level cap is that introducing the current trait system with Rohan came with changes to all classes. It didn't matter much in PvP because the cap level was now 85, and the trait system was optimized for that cap level, and creeps were set to work accordingly. No thought was required to think about PvP at 75, 65, 60 and 50 because well.... in 2012, that was never going to happen. And maybe this is why they can't really do much about it until they put a lot of rework into it. Level 85 creeps vs Level 85 freeps might make sense with the trait system as it is, but I am thinking it will be heavily tipped in the favor of freeps at the level 50 and 60 level.

    TL;DR: There have been too many game changes to make the current code work well and balanced in PvP at level 50, 60-ish.... And this is likely the reason it would work better at 75 or 85.

    PvP at level 50 or 60 would be really cool. But we know already that it won't happen. SSG has made it known in the past they more or less plan 6 months to a year ahead when it comes to workloads, so it's likely that 2019 is already filled. Remember they also work on the DDO side for new content etc, so it's not all LOTRO.

    At the end of the day, we have the answer. It's not very likely that is going to change, so the people for which PvP is very important will have to decide whether this is deal breaker or not....
    Moved from Riddermark to Arkenstone on 9/29/2015!
    -----
    Disclaimer: The definition of "Soon™" is based solely on SSG's interpretation of the word, and all similarities with dictionary definitions of the word "Soon™" are purely coincidental and should not be interpreted as a time frame that will come to pass within a reasonable amount of time.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothir View Post
    Then it's not happening at all but they're hoping to string some people along by leaving it slightly open. RIP Limited Servers, you've been left to the casuals and festival fairies.
    You know, I've been fully supportive of your plea to have PvMP added to the LS as much as possible, despite the fact that I don't play it. I've been up there in threads supporting even a PvMP server for our PvMP lovers, but your comments like this one, which are becoming more and more frequent, are making it very difficult to offer you any support at all.

    This kind of comment is not needed. Yes, there are players out there that do not like PvMP, get over it please. Your quibble that it will not be added in the near future is with SSG, not other players. You've made it perfectly clear that you do not like casual type play or festivals, and that's absolutely fine ok, I'm not going to brand you or call you silly names for it.

    p.s. I'm sorry that you did not win the fight to have PvMP introduced early to the LS, but that is not the fault of players that do not participate in that form of play.
    Last edited by Arnenna; Jan 29 2019 at 02:37 AM.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.

  13. #13
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    i m not doing PvP anymore
    but i have to tell that its not fair for the people joined in legendary servers,
    not including all aspects of the game!
    SSG MUST let PvP enjoyers enter n have fun in the moors as it was back in 2008!
    lotr enthousiast since 1996, 12 years lotro player, lifetimer, Loyal member of the Spartans Kinship, now in Evernight imigrants from Eldar

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    You know, I've been fully supportive of your plea to have PvMP added to the LS as much as possible, despite the fact that I don't play it. I've been up there in threads supporting even a PvMP server for our PvMP lovers, but your comments like this one, which are becoming more and more frequent, are making it very difficult to offer you any support at all.
    Oh no, whatever shall I do?

    Give Anor and Ithil PvMP.
    Before making a complaint here, ask yourself this: "Am I still giving SSG money?". If the answer is yes, there's no point complaining.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothir View Post
    Oh no, whatever shall I do?
    I don't know. But with regards to PvP, you have the following options.

    1) Deal breaker! #logforever #playanothergame.
    2) Meh, I guess I will play level 120 Pvp then on an existing server..... #Iwasonlykiddingwiththelogfor6
    3) Okay, I was just kidding. See you on the legendary servers tonight! #notlogatall

    What isn't quite clear is what you will choose.
    Should it be 1 though, I am always interested what other games people play. I have tried looking for better MMO's, but I always wind up back here.
    Moved from Riddermark to Arkenstone on 9/29/2015!
    -----
    Disclaimer: The definition of "Soon™" is based solely on SSG's interpretation of the word, and all similarities with dictionary definitions of the word "Soon™" are purely coincidental and should not be interpreted as a time frame that will come to pass within a reasonable amount of time.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valakircka View Post
    SSG MUST let PvP enjoyers enter n have fun in the moors as it was back in 2008!
    That's simply never going to happen. The trait system we got with Helms Deep has made level 50 freeps OP AF compared to 2008.....
    Moved from Riddermark to Arkenstone on 9/29/2015!
    -----
    Disclaimer: The definition of "Soon™" is based solely on SSG's interpretation of the word, and all similarities with dictionary definitions of the word "Soon™" are purely coincidental and should not be interpreted as a time frame that will come to pass within a reasonable amount of time.

  17. #17
    soon the next update for the LS will be out, people will load up on XP and REP Boosts. burn thru the content in a week playing 24/7 and then complain they have nothing to do.

    except make posts that SSG ignores demanding they get this or that.
    .

    Mortem Tyrannis

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by maartena View Post
    That's simply never going to happen. The trait system we got with Helms Deep has made level 50 freeps OP AF compared to 2008.....
    And you played a Creep how often in 2008?
    Università degli Studi di Roma "La Sapienza" Sapienza University of Rome

    Graduate PhD con lode Scienze della Politica

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by subadar View Post
    soon the next update for the LS will be out, people will load up on XP and REP Boosts. burn thru the content in a week playing 24/7 and then complain they have nothing to do.

    except make posts that SSG ignores demanding they get this or that.
    And what will you be doing? Dragging out old content and waiting patiently for festivals while making snide remarks on the forums?

    Give Anor and Ithil PvMP.
    Before making a complaint here, ask yourself this: "Am I still giving SSG money?". If the answer is yes, there's no point complaining.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapienze View Post
    And you played a Creep how often in 2008?
    Never. I played one in 2010 for the first time when the cap was level 65. That doesn't have anything to do with my answer though. Obviously, if you think that a 2008, scaled back to 50 creep would be just fine against a 2019 level 50 warden loaded with slotted armor and mitigations.... well, that I don't know for sure, but neither do you.

    It is my THEORY that current level 50s are way to OP to make PVP at level 50 in any way balanced.

    Regardless of that though, the answer has been given: No PvP in 2019, and people will have to decide whether it is a dealbreaker or not.
    Moved from Riddermark to Arkenstone on 9/29/2015!
    -----
    Disclaimer: The definition of "Soon™" is based solely on SSG's interpretation of the word, and all similarities with dictionary definitions of the word "Soon™" are purely coincidental and should not be interpreted as a time frame that will come to pass within a reasonable amount of time.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by subadar View Post
    soon the next update for the LS will be out, people will load up on XP and REP Boosts. burn thru the content in a week playing 24/7 and then complain they have nothing to do.

    except make posts that SSG ignores demanding they get this or that.
    Exactly.

    Not everyone is the "rush to the end game" type of player with experience and rep boosts to get to the top level as fast as possible.
    Not everyone just plays ONE character either, many of us have alts.
    Many people enjoy weekly raids, I have a Rift raid planned with the kinship tonight.
    Some people enjoy immersing themselves into the storyline.

    Everyone plays a different game.

    This is not something exclusive to the Legendary Servers by the way. Someone with a level 115 would do the level 115-120 update in 2 days, do every quest and then sit in Skarhald claiming he is bored.
    The "standing around being bored in South Bree jumping up and down on the fence" is something that happens with most people that have a extremely fast play style like you described, and they will have nothing to do.

    To those people.... perhaps it is time to try an alt! Or two, or three....
    Moved from Riddermark to Arkenstone on 9/29/2015!
    -----
    Disclaimer: The definition of "Soon™" is based solely on SSG's interpretation of the word, and all similarities with dictionary definitions of the word "Soon™" are purely coincidental and should not be interpreted as a time frame that will come to pass within a reasonable amount of time.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothir View Post
    And what will you be doing? Dragging out old content and waiting patiently for festivals while making snide remarks on the forums?
    For me:

    - Play alts.
    - Do deeds.
    - Participate in organized kin raids.
    - Go grouping! Just last night we took another bunch of level 20-ish people through the Great Barrow instances.
    - Help kinnies with some of their quests or leveling.
    - Perfect my crafting with guilded rep and such or harvesting materials in the game.
    - And yes: When a festival is on I certainly will participate.


    I realize everyone plays a different game, and after 1 character people might not want to play an alt to do it again.... but I enjoy experiencing and learning different classes, and having the option to change to a different class when needed. This certainly helps when you are faced with raid locks and such, so get another character to level 50. If that is not something you enjoy, instead of playing alts in the SAME game.... play one character in DIFFERENT games. But every game likely has a limit of things you can do with one character. If there are games out there you enjoy more, there is no shame in playing many different games.

    But please don't act like PvP is the ONLY way out of your boredom in the game. Because it isn't. I certainly would love PvP on the legendary servers as it will just add more options for every play style.... but it isn't a deal breaker to me if we don't get it. If it is for you, well..... let us know what game you will be playing till 2020. Who knows, I might even join you because I have been looking for a good MMO to replace Lotro for years, but I always seem to be coming back here because I love the world of Tolkien so much.
    Moved from Riddermark to Arkenstone on 9/29/2015!
    -----
    Disclaimer: The definition of "Soon™" is based solely on SSG's interpretation of the word, and all similarities with dictionary definitions of the word "Soon™" are purely coincidental and should not be interpreted as a time frame that will come to pass within a reasonable amount of time.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by maartena View Post
    Never. I played one in 2010 for the first time when the cap was level 65. That doesn't have anything to do with my answer though. Obviously, if you think that a 2008, scaled back to 50 creep would be just fine against a 2019 level 50 warden loaded with slotted armor and mitigations.... well, that I don't know for sure, but neither do you.

    It is my THEORY that current level 50s are way to OP to make PVP at level 50 in any way balanced.

    Regardless of that though, the answer has been given: No PvP in 2019, and people will have to decide whether it is a dealbreaker or not.
    Never? OK I see. So you don't know and only have theories.

    1. Because Creep are essentially npcs their stats (Creeps) can be changed easily and even with the adjustment of the core stats by Vastin. Also his words, that in the future the bond between Creeps and Npcs will be completely severed in the name of balancing efforts.

    2. The dynamic originally was intended to not be balanced by stats but by numbers. Much like the lore of Tolkien marauding bands of Creeps against a stronger foe.

    3 It has everything to do with your answer you just didn't realize it because you are espousing theories. You weren't there.

    4. The most important facet of the original PvMP in LotRO was the fact that particular players chose this disadvantage intentionally. In doing this, those who did learn the Creep classes within their limited existence to overcome the intended imbalance thru effort, experimentation on every level of pvp and proved they could prevail against the odds. This was and is still important and essential for viable PvMP. These endeavors created bonds that last to this very day. Albeit less in numbers and occurrence these founding players can be seen at different times and stand to be recognized by their peers. These players are why thousands upon thousands of other players came here, stayed here, and desire a reason to remain here. But you didn't know this. Until now.

    5. As a by-product of the early success of PvMP, every Pver unknowingly may enjoy the blessing of today, which some 60 thousand plus PvPers weekly gave to this game and its ongoing survival from those early days. They all paid subscriptions, They all contributed to their community fore they were the Pve's Kin leaders and Pve Raid leaders. Its too bad you weren't around to witness these days because your view might very well be different.


    So it is, there will be no PvMP on the new servers. Though not from your due diligence to curtail this at every corner or intersect and even throwing in the kitchen sink to offer any reason under the sun, why it should not be. This was already decided long before the revamp of the starter areas began. In was likely decided more than 6 years ago only for a different set of priorities. So you can save yourself the time inventing theories about this and that. The PvPers already know why, yet their hope remains one day things will be different.
    Università degli Studi di Roma "La Sapienza" Sapienza University of Rome

    Graduate PhD con lode Scienze della Politica

  24. #24
    I still say they are waiting til they have the Freep classes in balance before they get started on Creep classes. They know PvMP is important to a lot of players, but Freep classes have to be finished first. Once those are done, they will balance Creep classes to match the work done on the Freep classes. Why introduce PvMP on the LS when it's still really messed up?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SharlaSedai View Post
    I still say they are waiting til they have the Freep classes in balance before they get started on Creep classes. They know PvMP is important to a lot of players, but Freep classes have to be finished first. Once those are done, they will balance Creep classes to match the work done on the Freep classes. Why introduce PvMP on the LS when it's still really messed up?
    They're waiting for the impossible, then. They don't have enough devs, the devs they do have don't seem to actually play the game like a raider/PvPer, and they're trying to balance classes that can never be balanced due to their different strengths and builds.

    If PvP isn't going to be included at all this year (or any year, it seems), it's because it's a problem well beyond what they can fix. Otherwise, they'd just leave the PvP option enabled, like the other servers. Instead, they went out of their way to lock it.

    Give Anor and Ithil PvMP.
    Before making a complaint here, ask yourself this: "Am I still giving SSG money?". If the answer is yes, there's no point complaining.

 

 

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