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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    Every 600k with a champ you need 1 minute longer and this is far to much
    10k dps difference between rk and champion...

    we needed ~3:30 for id1 T2, ...10.000 dps x 210 sec = 2.100.000 dmg which a rk would have dealt more than a champion.

    our raid had in 3:30 of time ~700.000 dps. -----> 2.100.000 dmg / 700.000 dps = 3 seconds

    so we would be 3 seconds faster if he would have taken another rk over our one champion.

    if a hunter deals lets say 30k more dps than a champion und you switch them it would be 9 seconds difference
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zariliv92 View Post
    10k dps difference between rk and champion...

    we needed ~3:30 for id1 T2, ...10.000 dps x 210 sec = 2.100.000 dmg which a rk would have dealt more than a champion.

    our raid had in 3:30 of time ~700.000 dps. -----> 2.100.000 dmg / 700.000 dps = 3 seconds

    so we would be 3 seconds faster if he would have taken another rk over our one champion.

    if a hunter deals lets say 30k more dps than a champion und you switch them it would be 9 seconds difference
    I'd really appreciate a couple of pictures of these parses.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zariliv92 View Post
    10k dps difference between rk and champion...

    we needed ~3:30 for id1 T2, ...10.000 dps x 210 sec = 2.100.000 dmg which a rk would have dealt more than a champion.

    our raid had in 3:30 of time ~700.000 dps. -----> 2.100.000 dmg / 700.000 dps = 3 seconds

    so we would be 3 seconds faster if he would have taken another rk over our one champion.

    if a hunter deals lets say 30k more dps than a champion und you switch them it would be 9 seconds difference
    Guessing normal line up.
    Normal would be tank, 2heals, 1 lm which 4 dps you can ignore. 2 cappies, 1 burg which would make 30-50k dps.
    So left are 5 dps spots.
    5 spots filled with hunter which do 20% more you win a whole spot compared to use only champs as dps.
    Lowest dps to highest must maximum 5% if there aren't any other mechamicwise disadvantages. Which champs normally have, Well not in this raid bit normally, so they must be the topdps to rqualize this disadvantages.
    Not to forget that they get the most dmg in a group.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    Guessing normal line up.
    Normal would be tank, 2heals, 1 lm which 4 dps you can ignore. 2 cappies, 1 burg which would make 30-50k dps.
    So left are 5 dps spots.
    5 spots filled with hunter which do 20% more you win a whole spot compared to use only champs as dps.
    Lowest dps to highest must maximum 5% if there aren't any other mechamicwise disadvantages. Which champs normally have, Well not in this raid bit normally, so they must be the topdps to rqualize this disadvantages.
    Not to forget that they get the most dmg in a group.
    Burglar dealing 30-50k DpS? In yellow? Now i'm really interested.
    Teucros/Psorokostaina/Ippokratis/Kervertros.
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demosthenes11 View Post
    Burglar dealing 30-50k DpS? In yellow? Now i'm really interested.
    Then Set this three to cero too. So you're at 700 k for each of the five spots for dps which are in average 140 k dps.
    Which means a lot of the dps were helped by the other dps for the champ.
    So champs are just lucky that the fights aren't so hard that we've puffer to take them with us out of mercy.

  6. #56
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    For a champion to achieve on single target only 10k dps less than an a good RK or Hunter must not wearing any mitigation must have a very good cpt on him always and every help from burglar LM beorning and still....
    Guys i play all dps classes when i have to spend at least 5 slots for mitigation's in my champions armour and just only 2 and thats occasionally on my range classes even with numbers its impossible to achieve only -10k dps and i am not willing to go glass cannon with my champion and make my healer suffering for try to keeping me up he have a lot of work to do with other more important classes in there.
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  7. #57
    Maybe time to erase minstrel and champion from server ?

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    For a champion to achieve on single target only 10k dps less than an a good RK or Hunter must not wearing any mitigation must have a very good cpt on him always and every help from burglar LM beorning and still....
    .
    Thats exactly how the highest parses are coming together. Without all that support nobody does the insane parses. To maximize on DPS everyone needs to be buffed up at all times. Sure red champ cant compete with Hunter and RK on ST damage but especially Hunter brings nothing but damage, red champ has utility outside of that. Not talking about RK's since DNF is pretty huge on a damage dealer. Thats a pretty big thing they have going for themselves.
    About mitigations.. when your role is to DPS and theres no unavoidable damage that kills you, you always go full glass canon. And if there is you raise mits to a threshhold that allows to survive. And with unavoidable I mean unavoidable, if theres any way to dodge that damage you figure out how and execute.So if you as champ HAVE to wear mits your hunters will probably have to do so too. Except for T3 Thrumfall theres no Instance thats not completable for a Champ of any spec. Even T3 Thrumfall is/was, but unreasonably hard and shouldn't be attempted. Champs are always good for interupts and anti corruption just to throw that out. The ST parses are sufficient and if your Group fails BECAUSE there was a Champ in it, it is not the fact that there was a Champ but that the Group didnt execute properly. Sure everything that can be Zerged from range one by one its always easier to go heavy ST, that doesnt exclusively make them viable. And if youre in a toxic envoirement like that im sorry for you, I know that feeling. A lot of people who are barely good enough to attempt T3 / T2C and don't care for minmaxing and getting good try to compensate with the easiest Strats available.

    What i'd be asking of SSG is to scale Rend and Horn debuff properly also Flurry crit rating, or make it % that goes beyond 30%. Also fix the red line bleed and make it have an impact dmg so reapplying it is actually benefitial. Another thing that would synergize well that I never see anyone ask for is an AOE crit def debuff on any of our skills. That could have been a sick set bonus to increase that and would be highly benefitial to the whole group.

    Not trying to deny that there was heavy Melee unfriendliness going on in Mordor, just saying it definately got better again and Champs can shine when they are allowed to.

  9. #59
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    Because i have the trust of my kinship i have done the Anvil raid on T2 lot of times since the day i did this thread some with my Champion some with my RK and one time with my hunter.

    Champions can be a bit useful at first boss by debufing that belly thing with champions horn and single target the boss but our dps on single cannot go above 95-100k and at the end of the fight 80-85k cause probably someone will run further away with the eye the boss will drop you away or whatever So dps is going down fast.

    For Boss two we are ok the fight is AOE friendly and we can be useful by interrupting one of the mini bosses.

    For boss 3 we can do better damage than we do for first boss cause the boss cannot move further away but still no AOE needed so a good RK or hunter can do better dps and can be more useful.Also we cannot reach those things at the ceiling :P

    For 4rth boss a champion can be useful if he interrupts the mini dragons and the grim at the end also its useful cause we can break our stuns and interrupt the mini dragons before we hide behind the ice.Our dps there is ok in first phase but it drops a lot when we have to find the dragons and interrupting them.Ofc this can be by LM or RKs when they are far away and we can turn to them when they are close but so far in my kin we do it that way so i have to left the main boss to find the small ones.

    I spend many days and lot of hours on practicing my rotations for single target to dummys.You cannot get more than 100k per minute and that not so often if you dont swap weapons (2handed with one handed+offhand) for doing couple of skills faster and then back to 2handed and to be honest i am not willing of practicing to swap weapons in the middle of a fight.I prefer a boost for berserker line for 10-20% up so we can be closer to RKs and hunters with out the need of swapping weapons in the middle of the fight and i mean the good range dps players not those that they hit like they just get out from the Archet.

    I wonder whats new are waiting for us in T3 i hope we can be more useful than we are now and not putting us to the bench again like they did with the Abyss.
    Last edited by Arandour; Feb 03 2019 at 04:17 AM.
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post

    Champions can be a bit useful at first boss by debufing that belly thing with champions horn and single target the boss but our dps on single cannot go above 95-100k and at the end of the fight 80-85k cause probably someone will run further away with the eye the boss will drop you away or whatever So dps is going down fast.
    Correction: your dps cannot go over 100k.
    There are some champs out there that can go well over 100k, there's proof on twitch of a champ going as high as 175k on first boss.
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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpicyMacHaggis View Post
    Correction: your dps cannot go over 100k.
    There are some champs out there that can go well over 100k, there's proof on twitch of a champ going as high as 175k on first boss.
    We say the same thing my dps on first boss cannot go over 100k.Those can do more cause they change weapons between skills and maybe they have better support.So i dont understand for what you correct me for.
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  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpicyMacHaggis View Post
    Correction: your dps cannot go over 100k.
    There are some champs out there that can go well over 100k, there's proof on twitch of a champ going as high as 175k on first boss.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    We say the same thing my dps on first boss cannot go over 100k.Those can do more cause they change weapons between skills and maybe they have better support.So i dont understand for what you correct me for.
    This nwould maybe 10-20k from bladebrother/better support. so 55k for weapon sitching during battle is hard this should be removed completely for all classes at least the reswitching. once switched the weapon(s) should be locked for the fight.

  13. #63
    You guys heavily overrate weapons swapping its a 15% damage increase at best (it more likely just about 10% more damage). I dont know if i will be able to the raid at t2 this week, but if, I will do it without any weapon swap and record it, i bit i still reach about 160 at the first boss.
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  14. #64
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    I think as well that weapon swapping is a small difference, same as the race difference between a dwarf and other champ races.

    The DPS Gertes did(180k boss 1,300k boss 2) is totally possible for everyone who doesn't weapon swap.

    If we watch that video a bit: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/372961492

    Clearly can be seen that DPS of him could be improved by a lot due to:

    1:Slightly better rotation. Not sure how big the difference would be but sometimes I feel blade wall/wild attack are getting used while brutal/remorseless is up.
    2: Different tactics: by kiting the eye on boss 1 a lot of DPS is getting lost.
    3:Support: never having a 100% uptime of the red captain banner alone is a big difference, I am quite sure lm, burg and stuff can play a bit better as well.
    4: Using buffs prefight to get more burst DPS infight first seconds. Stuff like controlled burn can be used during a countdown outfight so that all buffs are up when the fight starts.
    Aswell when the fight is that long buffs like cb or champions duell are used again its best to interrupt them with immediate skills.

    With a perfect strat, support team I am 100% sure well over 200k st DPS are possible, maybe even 220k.
    For boss 2 aoe DPS can be improved with various things, mainly with a better class setup and different fight strategies. 100% sure 400-450k aoe DPS are possible there after the fight.

    The main reason Gertes is getting high DPS is a good rotation, good gear and really good usage of immediate skills to interrupt stuff. He is really fast. weapon swapping is maybe 10k DPS difference there.


    The reason people like arandour are only getting half that DPS is more due to suboptimal strategies, raid setup, support and ofc class knowledge, rotation and stuff.

    Edit: I hope weapon swapping is not getting removed. The difference is really not big and its one of the only things that is fun here left in the game for the "hardcore" players who want to minmax out their gameplay!
    Every class can weapon swap to be more efficient, mainly due to different legacies on the swap weapon. On beorning+champ there is the dmg different with dual wilding+2hander using at same time to generate more DPS ofc.

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Thodrien View Post
    I think as well that weapon swapping is a small difference, same as the race difference between a dwarf and other champ races.

    The DPS Gertes did(180k boss 1,300k boss 2) is totally possible for everyone who doesn't weapon swap.

    If we watch that video a bit: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/372961492

    Clearly can be seen that DPS of him could be improved by a lot due to:

    1:Slightly better rotation. Not sure how big the difference would be but sometimes I feel blade wall/wild attack are getting used while brutal/remorseless is up.
    2: Different tactics: by kiting the eye on boss 1 a lot of DPS is getting lost.
    3:Support: never having a 100% uptime of the red captain banner alone is a big difference, I am quite sure lm, burg and stuff can play a bit better as well.
    4: Using buffs prefight to get more burst DPS infight first seconds. Stuff like controlled burn can be used during a countdown outfight so that all buffs are up when the fight starts.
    Aswell when the fight is that long buffs like cb or champions duell are used again its best to interrupt them with immediate skills.

    With a perfect strat, support team I am 100% sure well over 200k st DPS are possible, maybe even 220k.
    For boss 2 aoe DPS can be improved with various things, mainly with a better class setup and different fight strategies. 100% sure 400-450k aoe DPS are possible there after the fight.

    The main reason Gertes is getting high DPS is a good rotation, good gear and really good usage of immediate skills to interrupt stuff. He is really fast. weapon swapping is maybe 10k DPS difference there.


    The reason people like arandour are only getting half that DPS is more due to suboptimal strategies, raid setup, support and ofc class knowledge, rotation and stuff.

    Edit: I hope weapon swapping is not getting removed. The difference is really not big and its one of the only things that is fun here left in the game for the "hardcore" players who want to minmax out their gameplay!
    Every class can weapon swap to be more efficient, mainly due to different legacies on the swap weapon. On beorning+champ there is the dmg different with dual wilding+2hander using at same time to generate more DPS ofc.
    I dont would call the race difference small, its in my eyes way to big currently, i cant reach the same numbers i hit on my high elf, on my dwarf.
    In terms of rotation im testing quite often new stuff, i have some streams only currenlty and you will see different aproaches from time to time^^ especially with the 5% crittical buff from wild attack, also with pressing bladewall over other skill to save fervour (but i dont think this is worth currently).
    I agree with you on both tactics and support, clearly sometimes the support difference is huge (different people etc.)

    To the CD usage part, i usally use my cd's prefight and the main reason i dont interuped duell, is because i think its better used on cutting brutal/ferocious strikes.
    The funny part about id2 is that i did my best try here with my dwarf^^ about 350k at the end, with my highelfe i maby would have hit 400k, i have notice the damage type is here important, the dwarfs are ancient evil , so you need Beleriand, by using the craftet ilvl 386 offhand (with common damage) you loose a lot of dps here.

    I also hope weapon swapping stays, SSG just needs to keep in a reasonable range, something like 25% more damage from swapping would be too much, but currently it's fine and rewards more dedication.
    But I would wish that they take a look at DW vs 2Hand balance, offhands got to strong. A huge amount of traits is currently not working for offhand attacks, but skill who benefit from offhands are still super strong with them. I would like to see the trait fixed and offhand damage nerved (main-hand damage increased)
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  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thodrien View Post
    I think as well that weapon swapping is a small difference, same as the race difference between a dwarf and other champ races.

    The DPS Gertes did(180k boss 1,300k boss 2) is totally possible for everyone who doesn't weapon swap.

    If we watch that video a bit: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/372961492

    Clearly can be seen that DPS of him could be improved by a lot due to:

    1:Slightly better rotation. Not sure how big the difference would be but sometimes I feel blade wall/wild attack are getting used while brutal/remorseless is up.
    2: Different tactics: by kiting the eye on boss 1 a lot of DPS is getting lost.
    3:Support: never having a 100% uptime of the red captain banner alone is a big difference, I am quite sure lm, burg and stuff can play a bit better as well.
    4: Using buffs prefight to get more burst DPS infight first seconds. Stuff like controlled burn can be used during a countdown outfight so that all buffs are up when the fight starts.
    Aswell when the fight is that long buffs like cb or champions duell are used again its best to interrupt them with immediate skills.

    With a perfect strat, support team I am 100% sure well over 200k st DPS are possible, maybe even 220k.
    For boss 2 aoe DPS can be improved with various things, mainly with a better class setup and different fight strategies. 100% sure 400-450k aoe DPS are possible there after the fight.

    The main reason Gertes is getting high DPS is a good rotation, good gear and really good usage of immediate skills to interrupt stuff. He is really fast. weapon swapping is maybe 10k DPS difference there.


    The reason people like arandour are only getting half that DPS is more due to suboptimal strategies, raid setup, support and ofc class knowledge, rotation and stuff.

    Edit: I hope weapon swapping is not getting removed. The difference is really not big and its one of the only things that is fun here left in the game for the "hardcore" players who want to minmax out their gameplay!
    Every class can weapon swap to be more efficient, mainly due to different legacies on the swap weapon. On beorning+champ there is the dmg different with dual wilding+2hander using at same time to generate more DPS ofc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    I dont would call the race difference small, its in my eyes way to big currently, i cant reach the same numbers i hit on my high elf, on my dwarf.
    In terms of rotation im testing quite often new stuff, i have some streams only currenlty and you will see different aproaches from time to time^^ especially with the 5% crittical buff from wild attack, also with pressing bladewall over other skill to save fervour (but i dont think this is worth currently).
    I agree with you on both tactics and support, clearly sometimes the support difference is huge (different people etc.)

    To the CD usage part, i usally use my cd's prefight and the main reason i dont interuped duell, is because i think its better used on cutting brutal/ferocious strikes.
    The funny part about id2 is that i did my best try here with my dwarf^^ about 350k at the end, with my highelfe i maby would have hit 400k, i have notice the damage type is here important, the dwarfs are ancient evil , so you need Beleriand, by using the craftet ilvl 386 offhand (with common damage) you loose a lot of dps here.

    I also hope weapon swapping stays, SSG just needs to keep in a reasonable range, something like 25% more damage from swapping would be too much, but currently it's fine and rewards more dedication.
    But I would wish that they take a look at DW vs 2Hand balance, offhands got to strong. A huge amount of traits is currently not working for offhand attacks, but skill who benefit from offhands are still super strong with them. I would like to see the trait fixed and offhand damage nerved (main-hand damage increased)
    The reason why I´m against weaponswaping is that it´s not realistic (well figthing against dragons etc is neither but part off the world): In a fight you don´t have the time to put your weapon away, pull another, strike, put the other away and pull the first again. Most you can do is to drop your weapon and pull another for another figthsituation like twohanded and the foe is to near and you need a shortsword etc for this range.
    But this is offtopic and should be done with his.

  17. #67
    Champion in anvil raid is fine t1 and t2.

    On t1 on some pack with buff i reached 200 k dps in area damage (better champ than me can do more). Dps depend raid buff + tank agro + good rota + stuff + point spend in tree and we need a minor buff on red line trait that's all.

    You can tank t3 thikil boss with proper stuff too (boss 2 and boss 3 done).

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    You guys heavily overrate weapons swapping its a 15% damage increase at best (it more likely just about 10% more damage). I dont know if i will be able to the raid at t2 this week, but if, I will do it without any weapon swap and record it, i bit i still reach about 160 at the first boss.
    Mate that +15% buff is what i need in berserker line to feel more decent when i dps on single.For me its extremely difficult to swap weapons while i make a rotation cause i am the kind of guy that double check every time to be sure that i put the correct one when i change a piece of armor or a weapon.
    Just for the conversation,I am practicing a lot every day on rotations etc but to be honest i am lets say forced to make skills that interrupts animations so can be faster and deal more damage.I love seeing those animations that every different skill do since the first day that i play this game but i am forced to cut them for been faster.Sometimes you feel like a swirl with a sword its realy cool to see the numbers goes up ofc but you loose all the beauty of the game if you know what i mean.
    Ok i can accept that and i am working on it but to swap weapons just for making couple of skills in the middle of a rotation in the heat of the fight for my dps to be more decent its too much for me and i am a bit old for this #### :P
    I will do it tho so i can keep up until they deside to increase our single damage dps a bit but for this to happen i have to find a good swapping weapons program probably make a macro for swapping fast and i have no idea about how to make a macro and increase my LIs number with one more to 8 ( i have 7 LIs full maximized already).After i need practicing on swapping weapons fast between skills ofc or maybe i should move to a role playing server probably i dont know :P
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  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    I dont would call the race difference small, its in my eyes way to big currently, i cant reach the same numbers i hit on my high elf, on my dwarf.
    In terms of rotation im testing quite often new stuff, i have some streams only currenlty and you will see different aproaches from time to time^^ especially with the 5% crittical buff from wild attack, also with pressing bladewall over other skill to save fervour (but i dont think this is worth currently).
    I agree with you on both tactics and support, clearly sometimes the support difference is huge (different people etc.)

    To the CD usage part, i usally use my cd's prefight and the main reason i dont interuped duell, is because i think its better used on cutting brutal/ferocious strikes.
    The funny part about id2 is that i did my best try here with my dwarf^^ about 350k at the end, with my highelfe i maby would have hit 400k, i have notice the damage type is here important, the dwarfs are ancient evil , so you need Beleriand, by using the craftet ilvl 386 offhand (with common damage) you loose a lot of dps here.

    I also hope weapon swapping stays, SSG just needs to keep in a reasonable range, something like 25% more damage from swapping would be too much, but currently it's fine and rewards more dedication.
    But I would wish that they take a look at DW vs 2Hand balance, offhands got to strong. A huge amount of traits is currently not working for offhand attacks, but skill who benefit from offhands are still super strong with them. I would like to see the trait fixed and offhand damage nerved (main-hand damage increased)
    try feral + clobber when you dont need to be interrupting. only costs 2 ferv and often enough ferv to go into remo or brutal. every so often I was able to notice a difference but would be interested to see what other champs think.

  20. #70
    ### is wrong with that world?
    On level 115 there was a skill delay on the champions and everyone wanted a faster champion. Now there is a fast champion and people want a easy champion...
    The only problem you should talk about is the difference in support of meele vs fire.
    Do you really want a “easy” induction champion with huge induction times?
    Last edited by Darkdede; Feb 04 2019 at 02:14 AM.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkdede View Post
    ### is wrong with that world?
    On level 115 there was a skill delay on the champions and everyone wanted a faster champion. Now there is a fast champion and people want a easy champion...
    The only problem you should talk about is the difference in support of meele vs fire.
    Do you really want a “easy” induction champion with huge induction times?
    Well i ask from developers a lot of times to give us the opportunity to put fire damage type to our weapons.If they do that and increase a bit our single target dps then we will be fine.
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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    Well i ask from developers a lot of times to give us the opportunity to put fire damage type to our weapons.If they do that and increase a bit our single target dps then we will be fine.
    Do you even realise how huge champ dps will be if they had fire damage? It would probably be borderline broken.

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkdede View Post
    ### is wrong with that world?
    On level 115 there was a skill delay on the champions and everyone wanted a faster champion. Now there is a fast champion and people want a easy champion...
    The only problem you should talk about is the difference in support of meele vs fire.
    Do you really want a “easy” induction champion with huge induction times?
    Dwarf if still slower than man/high elf.Ill wait for t3 to come out for more input on what needs to be done with melee DPS.Based on Gertess post champ is fine in t2.Better than warden.However people should not expect that DPS in any raid.

    Support for melee vs fire has been brought up to devs atention since throne.Ofc it was less of a problem then when rend negated all armor on bosses but still it was a problem and nothing has been done about it.Non physical non fire dmg type suffers even more.And it will never be even as devs are uncapable of doing changes like these.When you are getting evade on will jewlery,when main stats are useless,when BiS jewelry comes from other classes.When you are stuck using 105 gear on certian classes for 2 years and community manager Cordovan laughs on stream in your face when you ask about these problems you can be sure nothing will change.People praise vastin when he does some changes to classes as if that solves core problems game has.Majority of thing people mention are easy fixes its just these devs are bunch of incompetent cretins and I dont mean to offend anyone thats just how it is.

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Justapvpdude View Post
    Do you even realise how huge champ dps will be if they had fire damage? It would probably be borderline broken.
    Thats some next level logic.Why not balance support for each dmg type then balance DPS.Instead letting rk and hunter gain 70% dmg incrase just because LM puts benediciton and RK exists.

  25. #75
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Athens/Greece
    Posts
    263
    In conclusion with out many words champions class needs those things:

    First we need about 10-15% more dps for Berserker line.

    Second we need Fire damage type scrolls to put on our weapons so we can benefit from Lore masters fire buffs like Runekeepers and Hunters.

    Third no more melee AOE unfriendly mechanics on instances.

    Thats all i ask and probably for some people is so hard to understand...
    Arandour Champion Rank 12-Nerien Hunter Rank 11-Runendir RK Rank 7
    Narzul Lore Master-Ruarin Guardian-Gorgeous Minstrel
    Borzol Reaver Rank 12-Mauhnakh BA Rank 9-Varcolac Stalker Rank 9
    Sumnor Spider Rank 8-Orcapo Defiler Rank 8.

 

 
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