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  1. #26
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    I’m pretty sure classes whose bread and butter is ranged DPS e.g. hunter are designed to do slightly better damage than anyone else, that’s their role. A well-geared hunter will always do slightly more single-target damage than an equally well-geared champion. It’s also why you need to keep the aggro off them because they are so squishy. You don’t do quite as much damage but you are much tougher.

    So maybe try changing your role in the group to an off-tank, to grab the aggro when the main tank loses it, or you do the job of attracting the adds while the others focus on chasing the boss. Don’t forget your challenge skills. In a raid everyone has to have a role and they are all important, not just those who attack the boss. It might be the case that you are not the primary damage dealer in all the fights, but that doesn’t matter, just find a role.

    I mainly play captain, so I am never the primary damage dealer, but that class is all about helping the team to victory. I play champion too and yes sometimes you can just go in swords swinging but other times you have to find another role e.g. keeping the squishy classes alive so they can do their job. Keep your eye on the situation and watch out for when your buddies are going to get overrun.
    Last edited by TheArtilleryman; Jan 14 2019 at 03:56 AM. Reason: Grammar
    “...and he lived happily ever after, to the end of his days”

  2. #27
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    Decision has been taken.Champion out Range in at least for killing the first boss once and we will see later.I hope from what some people say in here that for other bosses champions will be useful.

    PS:You can say,tell and think whatever you want for me i dont care i just share what i have been through since Mordor.Well someone had to say those things or else never anything will be change...
    Arandour Champion Rank 12-Nerien Hunter Rank 11-Runendir RK Rank 7
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  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    Decision has been taken.Champion out Range in at least for killing the first boss once and we will see later.I hope from what some people say in here that for other bosses champions will be useful.

    PS:You can say,tell and think whatever you want for me i dont care i just share what i have been through since Mordor.Well someone had to say those things or else never anything will be change...
    Well things change! Even on the First Boss champs can nearly keep up with hunter and rk dps. We still have imbalances, especially in the stat Region. But most of the things you wrote where the reulst of your tactic.
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  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by TheArtilleryman View Post
    I’m pretty sure classes whose bread and butter is ranged DPS e.g. hunter are designed to do slightly better damage than anyone else, that’s their role. A well-geared hunter will always do slightly more single-target damage than an equally well-geared champion. It’s also why you need to keep the aggro off them because they are so squishy. You don’t do quite as much damage but you are much tougher.

    So maybe try changing your role in the group to an off-tank, to grab the aggro when the main tank loses it, or you do the job of attracting the adds while the others focus on chasing the boss. Don’t forget your challenge skills. In a raid everyone has to have a role and they are all important, not just those who attack the boss. It might be the case that you are not the primary damage dealer in all the fights, but that doesn’t matter, just find a role.

    I mainly play captain, so I am never the primary damage dealer, but that class is all about helping the team to victory. I play champion too and yes sometimes you can just go in swords swinging but other times you have to find another role e.g. keeping the squishy classes alive so they can do their job. Keep your eye on the situation and watch out for when your buddies are going to get overrun.
    Champ much tougher than Hunter HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH A DAT HEAVY ARMOR ARGUMENT HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAH
    let me use my fight on 3 min cd to heal as much as hunter can with point and click high dmg skill and survive all dmg with those extra mits from heavy armor even better if i am dwarf tho my animations might suffer a bit DDDDDDDDDDDDDD

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osglinthor View Post
    Champ much tougher than Hunter HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH A DAT HEAVY ARMOR ARGUMENT HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAH
    let me use my fight on 3 min cd to heal as much as hunter can with point and click high dmg skill and survive all dmg with those extra mits from heavy armor even better if i am dwarf tho my animations might suffer a bit DDDDDDDDDDDDDD
    You OK? Just checking

    I just know my hunter dies faster then my champion when he starts getting hit, that’s all. Still not as tough as guardian by far, of course.
    “...and he lived happily ever after, to the end of his days”

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by TheArtilleryman View Post
    You OK? Just checking

    I just know my hunter dies faster then my champion when he starts getting hit, that’s all. Still not as tough as guardian by far, of course.
    Name one situation where hunter can die faster than champ in t2 or t3 content

  7. #32
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    Hunter have far higher tac mits as champs without slotting anything.
    And this is atm the main source.
    + Ränge wich reduce the number of source of Inc dmg.

  8. #33
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    I’m quite happy to say you’re right, and apologies if I’ve upset anyone. Yes of course ranged reduces the amount of hits you take. I just meant that when I have played them both, the hunter died faster when getting attacked in melee. Only my experience of it.

    Happy to bow out and let the debate continue without me
    “...and he lived happily ever after, to the end of his days”

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    Well again, that you need to change your tactic or execution of the tactic. You can run with the eye relatively small circles, this way a red champ can constantly dps. If the slow field comes, use your 45sec sprint. To prevent getting kicked away from the boss, hug a wall.
    It is not the fault of the champion it's yours and your raid fault, when you can't deal your propper dps.
    Start to identify the problems you cause first and work on them, this will help you 100 times more then constanly writing the same stuff over and over again in the forum.
    On behalf of his raid, you're talking plain nonsense pal. No matter the tactics, no matter the player, champion class at its very best simply dishes out less damage compared to an equally geared and skilled rk or hunter. And that's that. Champion participation in boss 1 to the least is a viable, but not optimal option. As it had been for AoM.

    They're posting over and over again because they're maining champs and are pissed about the current state of the class and instance ''mechanics''.
    Teucros/Psorokostaina/Ippokratis/Kervertros.
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    The problem is that 1st boss run away with the eye behind someone + that bely thing that puss you far away so until you reach the boss again you loose much dps.If the guy with the eye is panicking then he run far away so i have to run behind the boss so i loose again dps and if that dragon drops that ice its even worst.Anyway thank you for the info.Sometimes i done about 80-90k dps with out support even that i run behind the boss but with the mechanics that i mention before my dps droped to 50k.lets hope that for T3 will be must to deal with adds or else champions are doomed at list for first one.Havent even reach the others at T2 yet so i have no opinion for the other fights.At T1 that i did it only once second boss was so messy that i went single again,same at third same at forth.
    Hunters and rk's have to run back as well after the belly flop knockback, just saying.

  11. #36
    Reading all the comments, some says its bad some say its good....

    As a main champ I dont think champ is neither of those. As fully geared champion you can easily out-dps an avarage hunter but in the end hunter does better dps (have both hunter and champ)
    You can easily do anvil t2 using champion its not a problem at all. The question is would you want to use champ? Thats a hard no at the moment like in the abyss. It is not optimal to use champ since they wont contribute higher dps nor any survivalibity. I think what Arandour trying to say is in Throne times, you MUST have used champion at least 2 for most of the fights. Hell even in 5th boss without dpsing u could do rend and sit back since rend was very important. So my point is, main problem with the champ is that they are not essential like in throne. So any sane person should prefer rk/hunter over a champ unless its their friend or something.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justapvpdude View Post
    Hunters and rk's have to run back as well after the belly flop knockback, just saying.
    Irrelevant comment. Just saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by eub View Post
    As a main champ I dont think champ is neither of those. As fully geared champion you can easily out-dps an avarage hunter but in the end hunter does better dps (have both hunter and champ)
    You can easily do anvil t2 using champion its not a problem at all. The question is would you want to use champ? Thats a hard no at the moment like in the abyss. It is not optimal to use champ since they wont contribute higher dps nor any survivalibity. I think what Arandour trying to say is in Throne times, you MUST have used champion at least 2 for most of the fights. Hell even in 5th boss without dpsing u could do rend and sit back since rend was very important. So my point is, main problem with the champ is that they are not essential like in throne. So any sane person should prefer rk/hunter over a champ unless its their friend or something.
    Exactly.
    Teucros/Psorokostaina/Ippokratis/Kervertros.
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  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Demosthenes11 View Post
    On behalf of his raid, you're talking plain nonsense pal. No matter the tactics, no matter the player, champion class at its very best simply dishes out less damage compared to an equally geared and skilled rk or hunter. And that's that. Champion participation in boss 1 to the least is a viable, but not optimal option. As it had been for AoM.

    They're posting over and over again because they're maining champs and are pissed about the current state of the class and instance ''mechanics''.
    Hi,
    I'm an only champion player, so it is in my interest that the champ is in the best state possible. The Champion class still has Problems, that need work.
    But in this raid, the 4 DD classes Warden, Champ, Rk and Hunter are so close together in terms of DPS and usefulness that I can't really be negative about it.

    I think I never said that champ deals more damage at boss 1 then an rk or hunter, I said its almost identical or close.
    I had trys with more DPS then a hunter/rk, but also trys with less. In average I would say my champ was ~10% behind them. ( In the future with more practice in this fight i would say the same DPS is achievable)
    But it also comes down to support, without a Warden or Beo your DPS numbers will be lower (rk's and hunters also suffer then, but not so much as a physical damage dd's)
    I'm pretty much sure the differents between more casual hunter/RK and champions is much bigger than at the endgame.

    I find it always funny how people can judge from the distance that i talke nonsens, when i just experianced something else as they. I think at thursday i will stream again, i can link you the video afterwards so you can see how close the damage differents between champ and ohter dd's actually is.
    If you want to contact me, pls don't write me a Private Message on the Forum, the chance that I read them is low.
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    I think I never said that champ deals more damage at boss 1 then an rk or hunter, I said its almost identical or close.
    I had trys with more DPS then a hunter/rk, but also trys with less. In average I would say my champ was ~10% behind them. ( In the future with more practice in this fight i would say the same DPS is achievable)
    But it also comes down to support, without a Warden or Beo your DPS numbers will be lower (rk's and hunters also suffer then, but not so much as a physical damage dd's)

    I find it always funny how people can judge from the distance that i talke nonsens, when i just experianced something else as they. I think at thursday i will stream again, i can link you the video afterwards so you can see how close the damage differents between champ and ohter dd's actually is.
    Equally geared, skilled, experienced players playing a champion in the same fight, with the same tactic and the same supporting deal significantly lower damage compared to playing a rune-keeper or hunter. That's a fact. Not a conclusion derived simply from different experiences. If your damage is ''close'' to a hunter's in the raid, the hunter is doing something wrong. Happy to check your stream.
    Teucros/Psorokostaina/Ippokratis/Kervertros.
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  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Demosthenes11 View Post
    Equally geared, skilled, experienced players playing a champion in the same fight, with the same tactic and the same supporting deal significantly lower damage compared to playing a rune-keeper or hunter. That's a fact. Not a conclusion derived simply from different experiences.
    Facts with the only prove being experience. Great story.

    OP has made several threads about the state of the champion. Can't compare classes damage output on classes that easily. Like you said, it's gear, skill, experience, but also tactic, support and ofcourse the fight itself (ST/AoE). I think several people in this thread already spoke out, about the champ being viable. That said, red is still behind compared to classes like rk/hunter. Champions are however not the only one facing that problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demosthenes11 View Post
    If your damage is ''close'' to a hunter's in the raid, the hunter is doing something wrong. Happy to check your stream.
    I could say the same about a champion dealing less dps than hunters on boss 2 in the new raid.


    I understand OP's reaction after Abyss, but this is simply not Abyss. Hope you'll find a spot for Arandour in T2 raiding.

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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remcosajax View Post
    Facts with the only prove being experience. Great story.

    OP has made several threads about the state of the champion. Can't compare classes damage output on classes that easily. Like you said, it's gear, skill, experience, but also tactic, support and ofcourse the fight itself (ST/AoE). I think several people in this thread already spoke out, about the champ being viable. That said, red is still behind compared to classes like rk/hunter. Champions are however not the only one facing that problem.
    Basically a blatant confirmation of what i typed above. Unless you got proof suggesting otherwise, seeing as you deem acknowledging facts must follow documents. Comparing classes is simple math (taking into account support too).
    Other than that, i agree champions aren't the only ones facing balance issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Remcosajax View Post
    I could say the same about a champion dealing less dps than hunters on boss 2 in the new raid.

    I understand OP's reaction after Abyss, but this is simply not Abyss. Hope you'll find a spot for Arandour in T2 raiding.
    My comments were targeted at boss 1, its fight, its possible tactics. Not the raid as a whole. Haven't experienced bosses 2,3 and 4 yet. Hope melee DpS is actually needed for those, or, at least, in tier 3. Arandour already has a spot in T2 raiding.
    Teucros/Psorokostaina/Ippokratis/Kervertros.
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  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Demosthenes11 View Post
    Equally geared, skilled, experienced players playing a champion in the same fight, with the same tactic and the same supporting deal significantly lower damage compared to playing a rune-keeper or hunter. That's a fact. Not a conclusion derived simply from different experiences. If your damage is ''close'' to a hunter's in the raid, the hunter is doing something wrong. Happy to check your stream.
    or you or your champions are doing something wrong. ...

    lets describe it that way:

    ST-dps : Champions +10% = RK/Warden + 20-30% = Hunter

    you say significantly lower and not close... i say thats relatively even...
    Hecki Hecki Pateng ~ Soldurii ~ Thelyn Ennor ~ Banditos // Vanyar & Gwaihir (EU-DE)

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zariliv92 View Post
    or you or your champions are doing something wrong. ...

    lets describe it that way:

    ST-dps : Champions +10% = RK/Warden + 20-30% = Hunter

    you say significantly lower and not close... i say thats relatively even...
    Give me an average unbuffed DpS parse of more than 3 minutes for say a good hunter and a good champ -by your standards.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demosthenes11 View Post
    Irrelevant comment. Just saying.
    I responded to a post claiming that champs lose dps because of the belly flop knockback mechanism.
    Said mechanic is an equally big dps loss for ranged dps classes because they have to move back after the knockback as well.

    I don't see how this would be irrelevant in this discussion.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justapvpdude View Post
    I responded to a post claiming that champs lose dps because of the belly flop knockback mechanism.
    Said mechanic is an equally big dps loss for ranged dps classes because they have to move back after the knockback as well.

    I don't see how this would be irrelevant in this discussion.
    My bad. I thought you were referring to the class damage output competitiveness in general as discussed right above your post and in the initial post itself. A quote would help.
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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demosthenes11 View Post
    Give me an average unbuffed DpS parse of more than 3 minutes for say a good hunter and a good champ -by your standards.
    10% of 10 is nothing, of 100 is low too off 1000k, but we speaking of around 100000.. And missing 10 tousands per second is a lot even more compared to a hunter.

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    10% of 10 is nothing, of 100 is low too off 1000k, but we speaking of around 100000.. And missing 10 tousands per second is a lot even more compared to a hunter.
    This does not matter, its always relative 10%.
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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    This does not matter, its always relative 10%.
    And 10% are too mich for the numbers we do.

    Just imagine All would to 10 times the dmg or even 100 times.
    Champs would do 1 Million dps less. If 10k differences aren't high enough.
    This 10% less dmg cause around 25% longer fights .

  24. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    And 10% are too mich for the numbers we do.

    Just imagine All would to 10 times the dmg or even 100 times.
    Champs would do 1 Million dps less. If 10k differences aren't high enough.
    This 10% less dmg cause around 25% longer fights .
    but then bosses would have 1x10^20 morale and 1 million dps would be the same difference as 10k dps when boss has 200k... basic percentage calculation, learned in school when i was in 4th class ( 10 years). 10% is always 10% no matter how much absolute dmg we do.
    Hecki Hecki Pateng ~ Soldurii ~ Thelyn Ennor ~ Banditos // Vanyar & Gwaihir (EU-DE)

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zariliv92 View Post
    but then bosses would have 1x10^20 morale and 1 million dps would be the same difference as 10k dps when boss has 200k... basic percentage calculation, learned in school when i was in 4th class ( 10 years). 10% is always 10% no matter how much absolute dmg we do.
    Every 600k with a champ you need 1 minute longer and this is far to much

 

 
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