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  1. #1

    Condensed Burglar Feedback, as per Cordovan's Request

    Condensed Burglar Feedback:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    The response, to be clear, is that we are looking for a couple of targeted ways to respond to your feedback, and while I and others have read people's extensive thoughts on the subject, we are looking to get a streamlined list of a couple of specific things to push for.
    The purpose of this post is to take the feedback from the Burglar Feedback Thread and condense it in a manner that makes it easy to see what people have been asking for. The feedback will be broken down by trait line and by factors that affect the class as a whole. This list is not intended to comment on the validity of each idea, but to simply centralize Burglar suggestions that the community is asking for. This list is also not meant to be taken to mean that all the changes should be applied, only to put them all in one series of posts, rather than spread out over several pages.

    There are links attached to each point as it was initially brought up in the feedback threads, with a tally system to show agreement from different users, as well as total mentions over the course of the thread itself. These will be sorted by greatest unique tally count within their section, followed by greatest total count in the event of a tie in the former.

    The information in the tables below is for those who want to get a better understanding of the burglar community’s positions. The TL;DR form will be used to group similar themes together, as some of the ideas are applicable to the same concept, but in slightly different ways.

    TL;DR (in no particular order):

    Burglars should have the damage buff that was promised, but never acted upon, in Bullroarer Preview Notes #1
    Traits that have overlapping effects should be reworked (see Improved Sneak, Strike From Shadows, and Aim)
    Heals should be increased in all trait lines
    Damage should be buffed to make us glass cannons, or our survivability should be increased with a side of AoE damage
    Provoke should apply the debuff that is listed on the tooltip, rather than none
    Debuffing Gamble should apply multiplicatively to keep it in line with (Improved) Disable and keep it relevant at all levels of play
    Cunning Attack should stack in all forms, with the Feint Attack version and Stealth versions treated separately
    Flashing Blades' offhand hit should apply critical magnitude and positional damage bonuses on a devastating hit
    Consumables should either become skills to allow for scalability or have better effects overall
    Positional Damage should be more accessible, it is difficult to have extended access to it in solo without abusing the Provoke/Double Down/Gambler's Strike lockdown combo
    Tricks should have more range, power, be stackable with one copy of each on a target at once from one burglar, or be spreadable
    Clever Retort should scale with group size or have higher base power on the effects
    Surprise Strike should not have a special stealth animation and should have either a secondary effect or more critical/devastate chance

    SUMMARY OF CONTENTS

    OVERALL
    1. Positional Damage is stifled by certain boss mechanics and could be improved for solo play
    2. Burglars should have more survivability, be it easier access to Tactical Mitigation or more morale
    3. Attack Range for melee attacks should be brought up to par with the other classes at 4.2m
    4. Surprise Strike should have a faster animation from stealth, a secondary effect, and/or more critical/devastate chance
    5. Cunning Attack should have more stackability for the stealth and critical/devastating variants
    6. Subtle Stab should be on a shorter cooldown
    7. Provoke should apply its critical chance debuff, it currently does not
    8. Hide in Plain Sight should allow for repositioning in a short grace period and give slow immunity
    9. Burglar’s Antidote should have a better animation and be usable in midair
    10. Touch and Go should heal for less, but be more frequently usable
    11. Burglar Signals should have a stat boost to bring them in line with other ranged slot options for melee classes
    12. The burglar consumables should have meaningful effects for the current state of the game
    13. Burglar should either be damage over time or burst focused, not both
    14. Burglar morale heals should be more potent across all trait lines (Bob and Weave, Relish Battle, Mischievous Glee/Delight, Clever Retort applied to (Improved) Disable)
    15. Burglar debuffs should have an increased range
    16. Stealth Speed should be lower than run speed, as it requires more careful movement (Oelle)


    GAMBLER
    1. Debuffing Gamble should stack multiplicatively instead of additively
    2. Provoke’s Double Down daze should be exclusive to blue line
    3. Damaging Gamble should have higher damage over time
    4. Overwhelming Odds should either increase Cunning Attack stack chance or have a more powerful effect when it does apply, such as debuffing the target’s physical mitigation
    5. Exposed Throat should have a damage over time effect rather than a Fellowship Manoeuvre
    6. Hedge Your Bet should refresh active gambles as well as increase their tier
    7. Gambler’s Advantage should either do more damage over time or apply a heal to the Burglar
    8. Lucky/Gambler’s Strike should have higher base damage
    9. Provoke should be removable with Cash Out, currently prevents other gambles from being applied
    10. Sharp Eye should always be active when traited


    QUIET KNIFE
    1. Knives Out should have an additional hit or two for the attack, as well as having the reflect calculated off of the incoming hit before the reduction is applied
    2. Coup de Grace should be either morale gated (see Merciful Strike/Shot as examples) or replaced
    3. Feint Attack should get the full benefits of stealth modifiers IF they are lowered to balance it out
    4. Flashing Blades’ second hit should factor in positional and critical magnitude on a devastating hit
    5. Trip should have an AoE knockdown, an incoming healing debuff, or some kind of unique mechanic IF Fellowship Manoeuvres stay in their current state
    6. Strike From Shadows should not have a critical chance from stealth benefit and focus on the critical magnitude from stealth element, as Improved Sneak guarantees critical hits from stealth
    7. Aim should have a better animation and makes guaranteed critical hits from stealth with Improved Sneak feel redundant due to its low cooldown
    8. Agile Hands should increase Attack Speed
    9. Surprise Strike should have a trait to give it increased devastating hit chance


    MISCHIEF-MAKER
    1. Tricks should have AoE by default, be spreadable, be more powerful (except for Dust in the Eyes’ miss chance), or allow for one copy of each to be applicable to the same target at the same time
    2. Dust in the Eyes should not break dazes and should have a secondary trait investment for more targets
    3. Counter Defence should provide incoming crit chance, not decrease outgoing crit chance, and be brought up to 3%/6% rather than the current 0%/2%, or give an armour % debuff
    4. Trickster should either spread tricks like Wind-lore or be toggleable at a constant power cost
    5. Mischievous Glee/Delight and Clever Retort should not remove tricks from the target, but require a trick present to activate
    6. Clever Retort should buff the group, scale with group size for the base effect, have the ability to crit, do more damage if it won’t be allowed to crit, apply to the raid group or have no range limitation
    7. Appraising Eye should go to 4% to compensate for the nerf to Reveal Weakness


    AUTHOR’S NOTE

    I do not intend to make this a contest of who made the better point, nor to call out any ideas that I personally think don’t work for the class. I have mained a Burglar myself from lvl 85 cap onwards, and have played at each endgame along the way, excluding the current one. This concept was brought to my attention by Cordovan’s requests, both on Cord of the Rings and the quoted post, and took me a span of 3 days to compile neatly.

    Special thanks to: ColMcStacky for the formatting, the quoted members for their valued input into the class, and my kinship for putting up with my ranting and raving for so long.

    If anyone has any points that aren’t approximately covered in the following tables, feel free to post them in the thread below, and I will update the tally as needed. Also feel free to vote on any suggestions you like best from these lists. Just please format it as the following, for example:
    The Mischief-maker: Disable: Idea 3
    The Quiet Knife: Feint Attack: Idea 2
    Overall: Cunning Attack: Idea 5
    The Gambler: Gambler’s Strike: Idea 1
    Last edited by Boberto; Jan 14 2019 at 03:04 PM. Reason: Clarified purpose of the list, TL;DR'd the TL;DR

  2. #2
    The Mischief-maker:
    • Tricks:
      • General:
        • Idea 1: (by Leonid3703)
          All Tricks should be 3-target AoE
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 1
            Unique Mentions 1
        • Idea 2: (by Darkdede)
          Allow all Tricks to stack with one another, so that one burglar can have all 4 up on a target
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 2
            Unique Mentions 2
            Also, Hildilas
        • Idea 3: (by Banatsir)
          Tricks need to be improved
        • Idea 4: (by Fingerz)
          Allow two different tricks to stack as a new passive
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 1
            Unique Mentions 1
        • Idea 5: (by Drizzels)
          Double the debuffs on Tricks, other than Dust in the Eyes
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 2
            Unique Mentions 2
            Also, Oelle

      • Disable:
        • Idea 1: (by Leonid3703)
          Double the strength of Disable's debuffs (+Attack Duration, -Damage, -Finesse)
        • Idea 2: (by Fingerz)
          Disable should be in the main yellow tree
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 1
            Unique Mentions 1

      • Dust in the Eyes:
        • Idea 1: (by Darkdede)
          Dust in the Eyes shouldn't break dazes and have a second trait investment for more targets
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 1
            Unique Mentions 1

      • Counter Defence:
        • Idea 1: (by Leonid3703)
          Counter Defence should provide incoming crit chance, not reduce outgoing, and be buffed to 3%
        • Idea 2: (by Oddessia)
          Counter Defence needs a large boost to values to consider running
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 2
            Unique Mentions 2
            Also Leopoldio

        • Idea 3: (by Fingerz)
          Counter Defence should either give an Armor % reduction or buff Incoming Crit Chance/Damage
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 1
            Unique Mentions 1

    • Trick Removal:
      • Mischievous Glee/Delight:
        • Idea 1: (by Leonid3703)
          Mischievous Delight should heal for more, consider % max instead of numbers
        • Idea 2: (by Snobs)
          Mischievous Delight should not remove tricks from the target
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 1
            Unique Mentions 1

      • Clever Retort:
        • Idea 1: (by Leonid3703)
          Clever Retort should heal for more, consider % max instead of numbers
        • Idea 2: (by Darkdede)
          Clever Retort should provide buffs to the party based on the tricks present on the target: +damage for Counter Defence, +incoming healing for Disable, -power cost for Dust in the Eyes, and +crit for enrage, all without the trick removal cost
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 2
            Unique Mentions 2
            Also, Fingerz
        • Idea 3: (by dudlord)
          Clever Retort should scale with group size, up to 6
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 2
            Unique Mentions 2
            Also, Oelle
        • Idea 4: (by whyski)
          Clever Retort should be able to crit or have higher base damage to justify trick removal
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 1
            Unique Mentions 1
        • Idea 5: (by Oddessia)
          Clever Retort's buffs need to be more potent, affect the entire raid group, and have no range limitation
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 1
            Unique Mentions 1


    • Trickster:
      • Idea 1: (by Darkdede)
        Trickster should spread existing tricks, not double stack one
      • Idea 2: (by Fingerz)
        Trickster should stay AoE, but allow for a third trick, either 3 different ones or a double stack of one
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1
      • Idea 3: (by TwitchPhoenix)
        Trickster should be a toggle skill with a possible constant power cost
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1


    • Reveal Weakness:
      • Appraising Eye:
        • Idea 1: (by Fingerz)
          Appraising Eye should be increased from 2% to 4% to compensate for the decreased Reveal Weakness legacy
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 2
            Unique Mentions 2
            Also, Oelle


    • Stealth Speed:
      • Idea 1: (by TwitchPhoenix)
        Yellow Line should not have decreased stealth speed relative to the other lines
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1

    Last edited by Boberto; Jan 14 2019 at 01:46 PM. Reason: Cleaning up redundancies, adding in more unique mentions

  3. #3
    The Gambler:
    • Bob and Weave:
      • Idea 1: (by Leopoldio)
        Bob and Weave healing should be increased to something like 5k initial and 1k per tick
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1
      • Idea 2: (by Tehaya)
        Bob and Weave needs a scaling increase at higher levels
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 2
          Unique Mentions 2
          Also Areyekuwe.
      • Idea 3: (by Omegaman1144)
        Bob and Weave healing should be % of max morale based

    • Gambles:
      • Debuffing Gamble:
        • Idea 1: (by dwarfThar)
          Debuffing Gamble should have the Damage debuff stack multiplicatively rather than additively

      • Disabling Gamble (Provoke):
        • Idea 1: (by Drizzels)
          Prevent Provoke's daze from being accessible in non-blue line
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 1
            Unique Mentions 1

      • Damaging Gamble:
        • Idea 1: (by Drizzels)
          Damaging gamble needs a boost to damage and DoT
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 2
            Unique Mentions 2
            Also, Oddessia

    • Gambler's Advantage:
      • Idea 1: (by Darkdede)
        Gambler's Advantage should lose the DoT and instead have an HoT, similar to Blood Arrow from Hunter
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1
      • Idea 2: (by Snobs)
        Gambler's Advantage needs to do more damage

    • Overwhelming Odds:
      • Idea 1: (by Darkdede)
        Overwhelming Odds should increase the stack chance of Cunning Attack, Fellowship Manoeuvres in their current state make this too difficult to reap the relatively minor benefits
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1

    • Even the Odds:
      • Idea 1: (by Fingerz)
        Even the Odds should debuff the target's physical mitigation
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1

    • Exposed Throat:
      • Idea 1: (by Darkdede)
        Exposed Throat should replace the Fellowship Manoeuvre with a DoT effect
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1

    • Hedge Your Bet:
      • Idea 1: (by Darkdede)
        Hedge Your Bet should refresh active gambles as well as increase them by a tier
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1

    • Gambler's Strike:
      • Idea 1: (by TwitchPhoenix)
        Gambler's Strike should do more damage
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1

    • Cashout:
      • Idea 1: (by TwitchPhoenix)
        Provoke [Disabling Gamble] should be removable with Cash Out to allow different gambles to be applied
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1

    • Sharp Eye:
      • Idea 1: (by Bootstwaddle)
        Sharp Eye should always apply its mitigation buff
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1



    Last edited by Boberto; Jan 14 2019 at 02:29 PM. Reason: Cleaning up redundancies

  4. #4
    The Quiet Knife:
    • Relish Battle:

    • Flashing Blade:
      • Idea 1: (by Drizzels)
        Flashing Blades second hit does not benefit from positional damage or critical magnitude when it should on a devastating hit

    • Knives Out:
      • Idea 1: (by darkdede)
        Knives Out needs to reflect more damage and should do an extra hit or two on account of both knives being used in the attack
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 2
          Unique Mentions 2
          Also, Leondin3703.
      • Idea 2: (by Flintryth)
        Knives Out needs to reflect damage based on the original hit, not the reduced hit
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1

    • Coup de Grace:
      • Idea 1: (by Fingerz)
        Coup de Grace should be morale gated at 60%
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1
      • Idea 2: (by Drizzels)
        Remove Coup de Grace
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 2
          Unique Mentions 2
          Also, Oelle

    • Feint Attack:
      • Idea 1: (by Oelle)
        Feint Attack should apply all stealth effects, but only if stealth effects are lowered to keep it more balanced
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1

    • Trip:
      • Idea 1: (by darkdede)
        Trip shouldn't trigger Fellowship Maneuvers (in their current state), replace it with a ranged attack that debuffs incoming healing or something unique like turning heals on the target into damage
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1
      • Idea 2: (by Flintryth)
        Trip should be replaced with something that's more usable, like an AoE knockdown effect to match the animation
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1

    • Aim:
      • Idea 1: (by darkdede)
        Aim needs a better animation
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1
      • Idea 2: (by Oelle)
        Guaranteed crits feel redundant with Aim being on such a low cooldown
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1

    • Agile Hands:
      • Idea 1: (by darkdede)
        Agile Hands should give an attack speed buff
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 2
          Unique Mentions 2
          Also, Leondin3703.

    • Strike from the Shadows:
      • Idea 1: (by Fingerz)
        Strike from the Shadows should affect Crit Magnitude, as the guaranteed crit from stealth it gives is made redundant by Cunning Attack getting guaranteed crits from Improved Sneak
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 2
          Unique Mentions 2
          Also, Oelle

    • Trait Suggestion:
      • Idea 1: (by Drizzels)
        Add a trait for Surprise Strike to give increased dev chance
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 2
          Unique Mentions 2
          Also, Oelle




    Last edited by Boberto; Jan 14 2019 at 01:53 PM. Reason: Cleaning up redundancies, adding in more unique mentions

  5. #5
    Overall:
    • Items/Gear:
      • Burglar Signals:
        • Idea 1: (by Darkdede)
          Burglar Signals are significantly less powerful compared to similar item level bows for melee classes
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 2
            Unique Mentions 2
            Also, Oelle

      • Caltrops:
        • Idea 1: (by Darkdede)
          Caltrops should be converted into a skill that scales with mastery, ideally with improved animation and a more powerful slow
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 1
            Unique Mentions 1
        • Idea 2: (by Areyekuwe)
          Improve the burglar-exclusive consumables
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 1
            Unique Mentions 1
        • Idea 3: (by Fingerz)
          Caltrops for +incoming melee damage
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 1
            Unique Mentions 1
        • Idea 4: (by OmnisFenrir)
          Caltrops need a buff or debuff added to them
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 1
            Unique Mentions 1

      • Throwing Daggers:
        • Idea 1: (by Darkdede)
          Throwing Daggers should be for the ranged slot, with a skill to remove corruptions and the ability to attack with them on the move
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 1
            Unique Mentions 1
        • Idea 2: (by Fingerz)
          Throwing Daggers for specific mitigation debuffs based on the damage type used
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 1
            Unique Mentions 1

      • Marbles:
        • Idea 1: (by Fingerz)
          Marbles for +incoming crit chance
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 1
            Unique Mentions 1

      • Serrated Knives:
        • Idea 1: (by Fingerz)
          Serrated Knives for -finesse
          • Tally:
            Total Mentions 1
            Unique Mentions 1

    • Fellowship Manoeuvres:


    • Positional Damage:
      • Idea 1: (by Darkdede)
        Positional damage feels less relevant due to certain fight mechanics
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1
      • Idea 2: (by GrafSchwarz)
        Positional damage is too situational for use in solo play
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1

    • Stat Contributions:
      • Idea 1: (by Darkdede)
        Add Tactical Mitigation from Vitality, as Hunters have
      • Idea 2: (by Areyekuwe)
        Bonus morale from Agility and Fate
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1

    • Cunning Attack:
      • Idea 1: (by Darkdede)
        Cunning Attack needs to have all the possible variants of it stack, currently only the non-crit non-stealth one stacks with itself while the others overwrite

    • Reveal Weakness:
      • Idea 1: (by Fingerz)
        Reveal Weakness should have a faster animation to go with the lower cooldown
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 2
          Unique Mentions 2
          Also Oddessia.
      • Idea 2: (by Areyekuwe)
        Increase the range of Reveal Weakness
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1

    • Surprise Strike:
      • Idea 1: (by Darkdede)
        Surprise Strike needs the special stealth animation removed, and should mark the target with a debuff that increases incoming melee damage and crit chance
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1
      • Idea 2: (by dudlord)
        Surprise Strike needs a faster animation from stealth
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1
      • Idea 3: (by whyski)
        Surprise Strike should get either more crit/dev chance or a mitigation % debuff or a faster animation from stealth
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 2
          Unique Mentions 2
          Also, Oelle
      • Idea 4: (by Snobs)
        Surprise Strike needs a damage boost or a secondary effect
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1

    • Provoke:
      • Idea 1: (by Drizzels)
        Provoke debuff applies properly but doesn't actually debuff enemy stats
      • Idea 2: (by Flintryth)
        Provoke's debuff is too small
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1
      • Idea 3: (by Areyekuwe)
        Increase the range of Provoke
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1

    • Hide in Plain Sight:
      • Idea 1: (by Darkdede)
        Hide in Plain Sight should drop the increased run speed, replacing it with an immunity to slows for a duration
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1
      • Idea 2: (by Areyekuwe)
        Hide in Plain Sight should allow for a brief period of stealth before resetting any engaged mobs
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 2
          Unique Mentions 1

    • Burglar's Antidote:
      • Idea 1: (by Darkdede)
        Burglar's Antidote needs a better animation and should be usable in midair
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 2
          Unique Mentions 2
          Also Leopoldio.

    • Subtle Stab:
      • Idea 1: (by Areyekuwe)
        Subtle Stab on a 1s cooldown
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1

    • Attack Range:
      • Idea 1: (by Darkdede)
        Improve the attack range to 4.2m to keep it in line with other melee classes
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1

    • Purge Corruption:
      • Idea 1: (by Areyekuwe)
        Increase the range of Purge Corruption
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1

    • Touch and Go:
      • Idea 1: (by Elwenwing)
        Touch and Go should heal 20% of max morale, but gets a 2.5 minute cooldown
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1

    • Addle:
      • Idea 1: (by Areyekuwe)
        Increase the range of Addle
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1

    • General:
      • Idea 1: (by Drizzels)
        Fix animation differences between the races for burglar
      • Idea 2: (by GrafSchwarz)
        Consider having burg be either burst damage or damage over time focused, not both
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1
      • Idea 3: (by Areyekuwe)
        Animations for skills need to be brought in line with each other
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1
      • Idea 4: (by OmnisFenrir)
        Redundant traits need to be addressed
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1

    • Defense:
      • Idea 1: (by Areyekuwe)
        Improve self-healing
      • Idea 2: (by Blato)
        Burglars could do with a bit more defensive power, as they are currently the squishiest melee class in an endgame where instances are not nice to melees
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1

    • Utility:
      • Idea 1: (by Blato)
        Burglars' utility is shared with Loremasters, who have the advantage of ranged on their side, leaving Burglars in an awkward position
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1
      • Idea 2: (by Areyekuwe)
        Burglar debuffs should have a 20m range
        • Tally:
          Total Mentions 1
          Unique Mentions 1



    Last edited by Boberto; Jan 14 2019 at 02:50 PM. Reason: Cleaning up redundancies, adding in more unique mentions

  6. #6
    Wow... thats some work getting all that feedback into these posts...
    And yup, most ideas are completely right and should be done.

    However, I'd like to mention one little point before I maybe come back on another day to give more specific feedback.
    Overall: Cunning Attack: Idea 1-5 are litterally all the same. Even though its not explicitly stated, we all want that more versions of CA bleed stack and why should it be limited at all... thats like telling healing RKs that they may not use more than two Mending Verses on a target... Or telling beornings they may no longer stack recuperate or Bash bleeds... oh wait, that happened recently for no reason either!

    Several of the suggestions obviously rely on nerfs on other ends. Like we cant double the Disable debuff while keeping it double via trickster. That would be completely OP. So the 'and' in some cases wont work, in most cases where you wrote and/or, it should clearly be 'or' for most suggested points.
    And well... the list of burglar suggestions is huge, so we should definitely get focus on some points or devs will just be overwhelmed and do nothing or pick the most irrelevant ones like generally raising stealth speed in all traitlines (sure, speeding around is nice, but irrelevant for PvE fights).

    And I'll still stack with my preferred blueline rework to a tanking traitline. Wouldnt even need many changes. Burgs already have the usual tanky panicskills, all they'd need to work as tank is a morale and mit bonus, higher threat and a forcetaunt (which could for example be provoke (its name already sounds like a taunt)). Blueline traits even are or sound tanky in several cases (critchain via evade, higher evade, heals on evade, a trait for higher mits, and 'All In' could be a great defense CD like -50% inc damage for some time and if some target doesnt die while the duration afterwards +50% inc damage or something like that and all that gambling stuff could just be real gambling like "either next incoming hit is higher or lower" "one of the next three incoming hits will be reflected, which one is random" or "If I'd die, there is a random chance not to die and trigger a heal instead"(which everyone besides guard has guaranteed but with CD)). The whole traitline doesnt make sense currently. There is no gambling in always having 100% chances.

    btw: The Quiet Knife: Feint Attack: Idea 1 is actually a Overall: Cunning Attack: Idea whatever

    And "The Mischief Maker: Stealth Speed: Idea 1" is actually false. Mischief Maker doesnt have reduced stealth speed, it has normal stealth speed (which is reduced speed compared to non-stealth). The other two traitlines have enormous stealth-speed buffs. Those should go (or the legacy). Stealth speed shouldnt be higher than normal speed, that just doesnt make sense. Its common sense to be slower while sneaking as the faster you are, the less attention can you pay to not getting seen.
    Last edited by Oelle; Jan 10 2019 at 09:30 PM.
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  7. #7
    I see what you mean... probably shouldn't have done most of this while really tired. Will update the respective feedback comments you pointed out as I get to them, and I wasn't sure where I could put a full traitline rework, given the system I gave my editor.

    The specific focuses will be the ones that end up with the highest tallies in the unique mentions. This was mainly intended to bring more attention and help start the streamlining process by getting community feedback, hence the vote mentioned at the end of the Author's Note section. One pick per section should help bring the focus on vital concerns. Thank you very much for the feedback.
    Last edited by Boberto; Jan 11 2019 at 01:29 AM.

  8. #8
    this is an insane amount of rework. you're talking about a whole new class here and that's an unrealistic expectation.


    aside from some more quality of life fixes and bug fixes, this is my take as a 26 year MUD and MMORPG vet who hardcore raided for 20 of those 25 years and has played every single western mmorpg to and at end game

    blue line: best single target dps in the game via bleeds
    red line: best burst damage in the game with long cooldowns.
    yellow line: hard to say, as loremasters are not in such an awesome state outside of yellow that I want to see burglar dethrone them. I think burglars should have different debuffs from lore masters, and they should actually WORK and be strong enough to warrant a raid spot.


    if the class can't be the best dot dps and the best burst dps, then the class needs something else as compensation for being in melee range but having none of the advantages of wardens. give the class aoe's and self healing on par with hunters.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Teyaha View Post
    this is an insane amount of rework. you're talking about a whole new class here and that's an unrealistic expectation.
    I apologize for the lack of clarity in my original statement. This was never meant to be a list to tell the developers what they should do, but rather what the community has brought up as concerns in a single location, to be adjusted as needed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Teyaha View Post
    aside from some more quality of life fixes and bug fixes, this is my take as a 26 year MUD and MMORPG vet who hardcore raided for 20 of those 25 years and has played every single western mmorpg to and at end game

    blue line: best single target dps in the game via bleeds
    red line: best burst damage in the game with long cooldowns.
    yellow line: hard to say, as loremasters are not in such an awesome state outside of yellow that I want to see burglar dethrone them. I think burglars should have different debuffs from lore masters, and they should actually WORK and be strong enough to warrant a raid spot.


    if the class can't be the best dot dps and the best burst dps, then the class needs something else as compensation for being in melee range but having none of the advantages of wardens. give the class aoe's and self healing on par with hunters.
    Just making sure, this is saying that if we can't be best single target dps (burst or sustained, respectively), we should have survivability and AoEs? If I got that right, I'll add it to the list. Feeling like making a TL;DR for my TL;DR, or at least simplifying it down more. Thank you very much for the feedback.

  10. #10
    Just to say that:

    At level 50, every group that went into Angmar wanted a burg.

    Then blue line used to offer the potential for the best debuff in the game - at level 65, the t6 debuff gamble was beautiful, and burgs who could keep it up and throw RW and other stuff around as well were in high demand. It was fun.

    As levels have increased, burgs' uniqueness and utility has evaporated.

    FMs are dead because no raid can stop the action long enough to do them and anyway bosses are immune - but could they be replaced by equivalent debuffs triggered by the burglar's own skill - an extended sequence of moves kind of like a warden's gambit but using tricks?
    105s: Aedfrith (HN), Aldnoth (CP), Brai (RK), Hrolfdan (MN), Aeldfryd (WD), Morriarty (CH), Aednoth (LM), Mishhar (BR), Hraldan (GR), Rummbold (BG). Tinies - Rumbelina (MN), Aenghus (CP)
    Rangers of Eriador (officer), ex-Snowbourn now Laurelin - A Noob for All Seasons

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Aedfrith View Post
    FMs are dead because no raid can stop the action long enough to do them and anyway bosses are immune - but could they be replaced by equivalent debuffs triggered by the burglar's own skill - an extended sequence of moves kind of like a warden's gambit but using tricks?
    Thematically, it would make sense for Clever Retort to be the equivalent of Gambit Default for completing the pseudo-FM, and the way gambits are built is similar to a 3-colour FM as it is. I'll add it to the list under Clever Retort in Mischief-Maker. Thank you very much for the feedback.

  12. #12
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    This type of post HAS to be opinionated.

    Polling together all (or nearly all) available feedback from 2 months of intense forums activity will make for too much material that makes no sense.

    For example there is item 16 somewhere in there that mentions sneak to become slower then walk? I do not remember who posted this, could not easily find attributation and feel that ideas like this are completely misleading.

    I on purpose have sneak speed legacy installed so that it were faster. If one wants slow sneaking speed, they can just forgo that legacy? I was not aware of any overy fast speed there in the 1st place.

    You need to make up your mind and publish what you want to see. Not just a bunch of at this point random things.
    Teyaha: then let's be real here and factor in history, precedence and class balance in this genre. Burglars should be the highest single target sustained dps in the game...
    -Areyekuwe: The truth. So, why not?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Areyekuwe View Post
    This type of post HAS to be opinionated.

    Polling together all (or nearly all) available feedback from 2 months of intense forums activity will make for too much material that makes no sense.

    For example there is item 16 somewhere in there that mentions sneak to become slower then walk? I do not remember who posted this, could not easily find attributation and feel that ideas like this are completely misleading.

    I on purpose have sneak speed legacy installed so that it were faster. If one wants slow sneaking speed, they can just forgo that legacy? I was not aware of any overy fast speed there in the 1st place.

    You need to make up your mind and publish what you want to see. Not just a bunch of at this point random things.
    About this point specifically, it seems like it may be a typo, or we missed a point somewhere. We will check and update the list accordingly. Thanks for pointing this out.


    The purpose of the thread though was to condense all (most) burglar feedback into one easily viewable list, since that is exactly what Cordovan was asking for regarding Burg feedback. We wanted to remain unbiased as much as possible, so we didn't discriminate between ideas, making no comment on the validity of each individual one. That is what this thread is for, for the community to do so. As such there are some suggestions in the list that may seem "off", but we were just compiling what people were saying, not trying to enforce what we would like to see from the Burglar update.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    About this point specifically, it seems like it may be a typo, or we missed a point somewhere. We will check and update the list accordingly. Thanks for pointing this out.
    OK.
    We wanted to remain unbiased as much as possible, so we didn't discriminate between ideas, making no comment on the validity of each individual one.
    Then it does not become condensed. Rather it becomes expanded. Expanded to anything, as is the case above. If I were you, i would edit the list a lot, to fit it into the original idea of Condensed. But, anyhow thank you for the effort at keeping spotlight on the Burglars. We can use some.
    Last edited by Areyekuwe; Jan 13 2019 at 06:58 PM.
    Teyaha: then let's be real here and factor in history, precedence and class balance in this genre. Burglars should be the highest single target sustained dps in the game...
    -Areyekuwe: The truth. So, why not?

  15. #15
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    How about general #13?

    Burglar should either be damage over time or burst focused, not both

    I do not remember anyone explaining their idea in this light, did I miss it?

    Where does this come from then?

    As a side note, Red line burst DPS, Blue line, bleed damage over time. In very general way.

    Everyone seemed to agree that both need to be buffed up in damage they deal.
    Last edited by Areyekuwe; Jan 13 2019 at 07:00 PM.
    Teyaha: then let's be real here and factor in history, precedence and class balance in this genre. Burglars should be the highest single target sustained dps in the game...
    -Areyekuwe: The truth. So, why not?

  16. #16
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    Reading the list. (2nd time, after reply to my post) It does look like author has his own ideas that are presented as feedback / proposed fixes of others. These ideas are in the list and no one has ever asked for these.

    Just two examples are in posts above. Again, if I were you, I would just come out and say: I want this, I like that. But I guess I have done all that already.
    However, there should not be any hesitation is putting your own ideas forward.

    Because, guess what at this rate we have no clue what the devs will actually like, or put into game, at all.
    Teyaha: then let's be real here and factor in history, precedence and class balance in this genre. Burglars should be the highest single target sustained dps in the game...
    -Areyekuwe: The truth. So, why not?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Areyekuwe View Post
    How about general #13?

    Burglar should either be damage over time or burst focused, not both

    I do not remember anyone explaining their idea in this light, did I miss it?

    Where does this come from then?

    As a side note, Red line burst DPS, Blue line, bleed damage over time. In very general way.

    Everyone seemed to agree that both need to be buffed up in damage they deal.
    Redline has stronger bleeds than blueline.
    If you call blueline bleed-focussed, then blueline is trash. I'd agree :P
    Redline obviously has better burst than blueline, and redline has better bleeds than blueline. A line with very strong burst and very strong bleeds doesnt really have any focus. Some people want a line to be focussed on something.
    I'd agree that red should get the announced buff to counter the nerf of reveal weakness. nothing more than that. And I dont see how blueline will get viable just with a buff in DPS. A buff in DPS will either still leave it worse than red or make red useless... unless it gets so slowly ramped up DoT DPS, that redline gets the PvMP/landscape/burst traitline and wont get used for DPS in instances anymore. For that, it would require to ramp up DPS at least as slow as wardens. I dont really see that come as thats even more of a rework than changing blue to tank (slowly ramped up DPS would require more new skills and mechanics).
    And I dont even see, how any class should have two traitlines that do the same.
    All other classes that have two DPS traitlines have one of it be ST and the other AoE or one of it immobile with higher range and the other mobile with less range or one melee one ranged (even though I'd not call yellow wardens DPS, but support). What point would there be in having two melee-ST dps traitlines for burglars?
    Diskutierer, Fragenbeantworter, Twinker, Händler, Handwerker und Gründer der 'Gemeinschaft der freien Völker' auf Belegaer.
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  18. #18
    As asked for, I went through the lists and thought about mentioned points.
    I clearly support the following points:
    The Mischief-maker: Tricks: General: Idea 5
    The Mischief-maker: Tricks: Counter Defense: Idea 1
    The Mischief-maker: Trick Removal: Idea 1
    The Mischief-maker: Clever Retort: Idea 3
    The Mischief-maker: Trickster: Idea 1
    The Mischief-maker: Reveal Weakness: Appraising Eye: Idea 1
    The Quiet Knife: Relish Battle: Idea 1
    The Quiet Knife: Flashing Blade: Idea 1
    The Quiet Knife: Coup de Grace: Idea 2
    The Quiet Knife: Strike from the Shadows: Idea 1
    The Quiet Knife: Trait Suggestion: Idea 1
    Overall: Items/Gear: Burglar Signals: Idea 1
    Overall: Fellowship Manoevres: Idea 1
    Overall: Statcontributions: Idea 1, but thats absolutely not burglar specific, EVERYONE should get tactmits from Vitality! (and mainstats(or secondary stats) generally need rework for all classes as they are completely unbalanced with each other)
    Overall: Surprise Strike: Idea 3
    Overall: Provoke: Idea 1
    Overall: General: Idea 1
    Wont Comment on blueline besides: "TG:GamblesebuffingGambles:1/2/3 are all the same, redundant" and "TG:GamblesisablingGamble:1/2 are the same, redundant" as I feel the whole line is completely redundant.
    Things that already have me mentioned are obviously supported by me to.
    All the suggestions that are not in the list above are either irrelevant (not worth any investment) or bad (current versions better than suggestions) imo.
    Diskutierer, Fragenbeantworter, Twinker, Händler, Handwerker und Gründer der 'Gemeinschaft der freien Völker' auf Belegaer.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    As asked for, I went through the lists and thought about mentioned points.
    I clearly support the following points:
    The Mischief-maker: Tricks: General: Idea 5
    The Mischief-maker: Tricks: Counter Defense: Idea 1
    The Mischief-maker: Trick Removal: Idea 1
    The Mischief-maker: Clever Retort: Idea 3
    The Mischief-maker: Trickster: Idea 1
    The Mischief-maker: Reveal Weakness: Appraising Eye: Idea 1
    The Quiet Knife: Relish Battle: Idea 1
    The Quiet Knife: Flashing Blade: Idea 1
    The Quiet Knife: Coup de Grace: Idea 2
    The Quiet Knife: Strike from the Shadows: Idea 1
    The Quiet Knife: Trait Suggestion: Idea 1
    Overall: Items/Gear: Burglar Signals: Idea 1
    Overall: Fellowship Manoevres: Idea 1
    Overall: Statcontributions: Idea 1, but thats absolutely not burglar specific, EVERYONE should get tactmits from Vitality! (and mainstats(or secondary stats) generally need rework for all classes as they are completely unbalanced with each other)
    Overall: Surprise Strike: Idea 3
    Overall: Provoke: Idea 1
    Overall: General: Idea 1
    Wont Comment on blueline besides: "TG:GamblesebuffingGambles:1/2/3 are all the same, redundant" and "TG:GamblesisablingGamble:1/2 are the same, redundant" as I feel the whole line is completely redundant.
    Things that already have me mentioned are obviously supported by me to.
    All the suggestions that are not in the list above are either irrelevant (not worth any investment) or bad (current versions better than suggestions) imo.
    Will be adding your selected points as additional unique mentions. As for the blue points, I noticed they were a tad on the redundant side when I was doing editing work on the other lines, but caught a fever that I think has passed this morning. That line will be cleaned up and streamlined as well. Thank you very much for your feedback, this list can only exist with help from the community.

    I'll get the top 3 in terms of count as the main focus after a few more days, to be posted in the initial section above the TL;DR for better visibility. Cord wanted to pass on a couple of things, so by the power of my keyboard and lack of better things to do, he's gonna get those couple of things.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Areyekuwe View Post
    Then it does not become condensed. Rather it becomes expanded. Expanded to anything, as is the case above. If I were you, i would edit the list a lot, to fit it into the original idea of Condensed. But, anyhow thank you for the effort at keeping spotlight on the Burglars. We can use some.
    It is condensed in that it is a summary of 200+ posts provided in the official Burglar feedback thread on the Bullroarer class balance sub-forum. It's not our specific list as we would like to see Burglar, but just our best attempt to as quickly as possible summarize the points made by others in that thread. The goal was to get this posted before u23.2 went to live, so we were a bit late in the end. We may have at times sacrificed accuracy for speed in getting this list up, so if we find issues (or if they are pointed out to us), we will update the posts as needed. As such, we greatly appreciate you pointing out these discrepancies.


    Also, needless to say, none of these points exist in a vacuum. If some of the suggestions are made a reality, it means that others are either obsolete, redundant, or will become overpowered. As such, not every change in the list should be implemented, and care should be made by the devs to pick and choose which points have good synergy with one another and will still leave the class balanced compared to others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Areyekuwe View Post
    How about general #13?

    Burglar should either be damage over time or burst focused, not both

    I do not remember anyone explaining their idea in this light, did I miss it?

    Where does this come from then?

    As a side note, Red line burst DPS, Blue line, bleed damage over time. In very general way.

    Everyone seemed to agree that both need to be buffed up in damage they deal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boberto View Post
    • Idea 2: (by GrafSchwarz)
      Consider having burg be either burst damage or damage over time focused, not both
      • Tally:
        Total Mentions 1
        Unique Mentions 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Areyekuwe View Post
    Reading the list. (2nd time, after reply to my post) It does look like author has his own ideas that are presented as feedback / proposed fixes of others. These ideas are in the list and no one has ever asked for these.

    Just two examples are in posts above. Again, if I were you, I would just come out and say: I want this, I like that. But I guess I have done all that already.
    However, there should not be any hesitation is putting your own ideas forward.

    Because, guess what at this rate we have no clue what the devs will actually like, or put into game, at all.
    This really is not the purpose of the thread, and is not what we have done with these posts at all. We don't have a hidden agenda or anything with this thread, and are not trying to insert our personal opinions into this feedback at all (neither of us even commented in the feedback thread, as Boberto hasn't used the forums before now and I didn't feel comfortable enough with my Burg to give advice on an official thread).
    Last edited by ColMcStacky; Jan 14 2019 at 03:10 PM.

  21. #21
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    That's a lot of work. Well done.

    Few remarks concerning the content:

    1. Ideas displayed must not be cumulatively implemented, as this would result into overpowering the class.
    2. Any suggestions disallowing the burglar from using any of his abilities and their respective effects from x trait line when mainly picking y trait line would deepen the already cropped class utility. Must not be implemented. Negating hybrid capstones is already bad enough of a call.
    3. Most ideas about altering the effects of abilities casting FMs should be replaced by bringing FM values to current standards.
    4. All burglar self-heals and out-going healing should depend on burglar stats. Max healing should be reachable only by burglars heavily focused on supporting the group, not glass cannons.
    5. Any straight absolute values change or indirect change through tweaking exclusive abilities/effects/bonuses should be applied across the board taking into account overall DpS output.
    6. Any ability/bonus rework must follow bug fixes and increase of certain abilities' outdated ratings. Otherwise, such updates would create more problems than the ones trying to solve. These are:
    6.1. Counter defense ratings.
    6.2. Debuffing gamble actual damage reduction and duration.
    6.3. Clever retort & Mischievous delight healing values.
    6.4. Addle effects split into different abilities.
    6.5. Red line raw DpS output.

    Generally speaking, people here should play the end-game and focus on proposals that would re-balance the class given its current state. Not spit out their fantasies, no matter how interesting. Ideas like having trick removal abilities not remove tricks and tricks not break dazes and/or stack by default on top of increasing their values on top of trickster as of its current state on top of its rework are completely out of place.
    Teucros/Psorokostaina/Ippokratis/Kervertros.
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