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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    The devs aren't able, at least they failed the last years, to balance the three dpser or the three tanks, and now they should balanced every offtrait this wouldn't work.
    We've seen it on the beos they tried they can do everything, now they defined the healer role for them and itvworks they can do their job. The three healers are balanced atm, beo give the most with nearly nö other benefits, rk the second with a bit of defensive support and the lifesaving bubbles, minis the last but for that a lot of offensive support.
    Beos also offer a lot of offensive support, also some defensive, in my opinion they are almost equal (if not better) to minis, when it comes to support.
    Gertes

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    wardens don't care.
    So wardens dots dont get reduced by reduced critmag?
    Sure, they have higher base damage and such are hit less with that... but dont care is quite exaggerated, isnt it?
    And imo, its good if enemies have critdef. That way, critdef debuffs finally are good for something.
    I still dont like how critdef works and how high critmags generally are... and I dont think 100% critdef is a good idea... but it still affects everyone.
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  3. #53
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    So wardens dots dont get reduced by reduced critmag?
    Sure, they have higher base damage and such are hit less with that... but dont care is quite exaggerated, isnt it?
    And imo, its good if enemies have critdef. That way, critdef debuffs finally are good for something.
    I still dont like how critdef works and how high critmags generally are... and I dont think 100% critdef is a good idea... but it still affects everyone.
    It affects everyone but not everyone with the same strenght. Dot classes are less crit depentent as bustsmg classes. Some dots even can't crit.
    While champs and so on loose a whole factor which will reduce their dps around 20%, while dot classes maybe loose 10% of not even less.

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    The devs aren't able, at least they failed the last years, to balance the three dpser or the three tanks, and now they should balanced every offtrait this wouldn't work.
    We've seen it on the beos they tried they can do everything, now they defined the healer role for them and itvworks they can do their job. The three healers are balanced atm, beo give the most with nearly nö other benefits, rk the second with a bit of defensive support and the lifesaving bubbles, minis the last but for that a lot of offensive support.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    Beos also offer a lot of offensive support, also some defensive, in my opinion they are almost equal (if not better) to minis, when it comes to support.
    Both of these opinions are incorrect. Stop spouting off nonsense you know nothing about.

    First off, bear heals are too strong but they don’t need the nerfs you all keep screaming about. The Roar HoT scaled a little too strongly with crit when our tactical healing was adjusted, and the abyss set bonus is partially broken in addition to just being an extremely poorly designed set bonus. It should be removed entirely.

    Second, bears offer the worst support of all the support classes. Those of you claiming the beorning has the best support are tooltip warriors. Some of the tool tips are first of all incorrect and misleading. Allow me to give some examples:

    Piercing roar traited and applied to marked target - tooltip says -40% outgoing damage.
    - this is misleading because it reduces mob mastery rating by 40%, which amounts to roughly -5% damage. Keep in mind this is a long cooldown limited time skill as well that costs a solid amount of wrath.

    Raging blow - tooltip says increases marked target outgoing damage by 15%
    - your marked target is always going to be yourself or the tank, this trait helps no one.

    Armor crush - increases incoming damage by +15%.
    -useful skill, but requires melee range and 16s reapplication while costing 10 wrath.

    Debilitating bees - Target physical mits -15%
    - not useful for tactical classes. Somewhat helpful for hunters.

    Shake free - 15% morale bubble
    -directly tied to your 1 min CD stun removal skill. Bubble is therefore not available on demand, but reactionary to stun removal, AND only works for marked target (tank).

    Leveling roar - 5s knockdown 30s cd
    20m range, can be useful for trash pulls. Ineffective for bosses

    Now, let’s look at the mini. I’ll be honest I don’t know the mini well anymore, so please correct me if I’m wrong:

    Outgoing healing self buffs - should nearly always be up for at least +41% flat outgoing healing
    There are more listed below, it goes higher actually.

    Coda of resonance and healers strike - +5% and %10% incoming healing applied to the fellowship, in addition to fellow wide heals, can always be up.

    Bolster courage - applied as an AoE

    Major/minor/perfect ballad - +5% outgoing healing, always up

    Soliloquy of spirit - increases mits by 1%
    -this is very strong

    Inspire fellows -incoming damage to fellowship -1%

    Hammerhand - large on demand bubble for fellowship
    - if you squeeze yellow traits it also buffs mit rating

    Cry of the chorus - +9% outgoing healing

    Tale of respite - +mits and +5% inc healing

    Anthem of war - +15% tact dmg and 5% physical dmg for fellowship in 40m range, always up

    For the most part this is all only from blue line minstrel. Anthem of war alone is far more practical, easier to use, STRONGER, and easier to maintain than traited bees and armor crush. Don’t spout that pile of #### that minstrel buffs are weaker than the beorning, I keep seeing it everywhere.

    If you mean bees and armor crush are overpowered, you’re insane. Sorry for the long post, but if I don’t list specifics this will go back and forth forever.
    Last edited by dsltn07; Jan 10 2019 at 02:24 PM.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    Piercing roar traited and applied to marked target - tooltip says -40% outgoing damage.
    - this is misleading because it reduces mob mastery rating by 40%, which amounts to roughly -5% damage. Keep in mind this is a long cooldown limited time skill as well that costs a solid amount of wrath.
    30s CD, 12s duration and no wrath costs... your definitions of long and a solid amount are weird.

    And if beornings heal three times as much as minstrels, it doesnt matter if minstrel has +100% outgoing healing while being a bad healer.

    Anthem of War is only all-time-up as blue minstrel, if you either have bossfights shorter than 3min and use traitline switching OR if you trait for it and such miss some great yellow traits like 12% outgoing healing or the (bugged) bonus hot or 5% tactical mits. And if you argue with beornings debuffs being weaker than their tooltips tell you... then the same is true for minstrels buffs like Anthem of War. Sure, Anthem of war is better for tactical DPSers... but for physical damage, bee debuff is clearly and by far better. physical damage is just mostly melee, not wanted and the only non-melee physical damage class can switch to fire which has much better debuffs.

    Tales are yellow-line, not blue.

    btw: you missed one of the best buffs minstrels can apply to the group concerning healing:
    +10% inc healing and +10% outgoing healing for longer than any bossfight takes via mounted combat buff.
    Last edited by Oelle; Jan 10 2019 at 03:39 PM.
    Diskutierer, Fragenbeantworter, Twinker, Händler, Handwerker und Gründer der 'Gemeinschaft der freien Völker' auf Belegaer.
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  6. #56
    I forgot piercing does not cost wrath, still 12s duration for 30s cooldown is not exactly a big help.

    Regarding healing amounts, you clearly ignored the entire preface of my post. Not going to rewrite for you to ignore.

    I said I do not know mini well anymore, thanks for the reminder on the mounted bug, the trait swapping, and tales.

    You ignored all the other buffs like mits the mini buffs along with skills boosts from cry and Hammerhand bubble.

    Bears increase damage by 15% SOME of the time, and reduce physical mits by 15%. Reducing physical mits by 15% is NOT equal to increasing physical damage by 15%. The current problem groups are having with the new raid is not doing damage, it’s staying alive. Mini skill and mit buffs are far more useful for a group right now than +15-20% damage.

    Now that we’ve established mini has better buff/debuff capabilities, the only major discrepancy is the amount of heals.
    The problem is that bears realistically only have 4 regular healing skills. The two in man form are handicapped (hearten with its 15s CD and 8s duration). Bellow is good, but with its 9s cd is not reliable. That leaves us with encouraging roar (ER). ER HoT scaled too hard with the tact heal rating fix, yes. The secondary problem to that however is that the abyss set applies the ER bonus to the fellowship. Supposedly it was fixed in the last patch, it was not. Supposedly it was fixed this patch, I don’t yet know, we will see.
    In short, bears are not yet a complete class and need more skills. If we balance the class around a SINGLE skill, of course it’s going to be poorly balanced. You can’t have one single skill do everything, it’s poor design.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    I forgot piercing does not cost wrath, still 12s duration for 30s cooldown is not exactly a big help.

    Regarding healing amounts, you clearly ignored the entire preface of my post. Not going to rewrite for you to ignore.

    I said I do not know mini well anymore, thanks for the reminder on the mounted bug, the trait swapping, and tales.

    You ignored all the other buffs like mits the mini buffs along with skills boosts from cry and Hammerhand bubble.

    Bears increase damage by 15% SOME of the time, and reduce physical mits by 15%. Reducing physical mits by 15% is NOT equal to increasing physical damage by 15%. The current problem groups are having with the new raid is not doing damage, it’s staying alive. Mini skill and mit buffs are far more useful for a group right now than +15-20% damage.

    Now that we’ve established mini has better buff/debuff capabilities, the only major discrepancy is the amount of heals.
    The problem is that bears realistically only have 4 regular healing skills. The two in man form are handicapped (hearten with its 15s CD and 8s duration). Bellow is good, but with its 9s cd is not reliable. That leaves us with encouraging roar (ER). ER HoT scaled too hard with the tact heal rating fix, yes. The secondary problem to that however is that the abyss set applies the ER bonus to the fellowship. Supposedly it was fixed in the last patch, it was not. Supposedly it was fixed this patch, I don’t yet know, we will see.
    In short, bears are not yet a complete class and need more skills. If we balance the class around a SINGLE skill, of course it’s going to be poorly balanced. You can’t have one single skill do everything, it’s poor design.
    Well... I didnt comment on most other things, because there was no need to. it was right :P´

    Last time I checked my traittree, all hammerhand bubble bonustrait gives is 3000 mastery. thats nothing. and bubbles vanish with the first incoming hit anyway, because they are so tiny.
    You are right: reducing 15% physmits does not translate into 15% more physdamage. Its usually MUCH better than that. More in the region of +20% to +30% physdamage. Still... no one deals phys damage, because ranged DPS is much easier and fire is the better damagetype anyway, so who cares?

    Still, I completely agree: minstrels buffs are far better for keeping the group alive.

    And I completely agree, that beornings are still incomplete and should have several more skills for each of their roles or some more general skills, that do different things depending on the chosen traitline.

    Minstrels are the better buffers, beornings the better debuffers, but all usefull beornings debuffs are offensive as all the defensive beornings debuffs are weak. Just like LMs are better debuffers and cappies better buffers. the only other class that truly cares about debuffs from minstrels is warden. No one else notices -25k light mits.
    If beornings 3x "-3% damage", "-10% damage" and "-20/40% damage" actually did that, aka worked multiplicative like LMs or yellowburgs debuffs, then beornings defensive debuffs would actually be great... but they aren't. I'm asking Turbine/SSG since years to make more things multiplicative as additive stacking is annoying and misleading. But they dont listen, sadly. So many mechanical things would work much better if they did.

    But currently, we have much more severe issues: ####ed up mainstats that are worth nothing, ridiculous ILI grind that prevents casuals and newcomers from getting into endgame in a reasonable time... and staying on-topic^^
    Last edited by Oelle; Jan 10 2019 at 05:54 PM.
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  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    Both of these opinions are incorrect. Stop spouting off nonsense you know nothing about.
    What i find really nice of you that you know, what i'm knowing and what not.
    I didn't talked about the 2 outgoing damage debuffs. Beo has so much more utility then that.

    At first i want to add further utility you did not appreciated:

    Sacrifice, is a strong defensive CD for the tank, that makes him survive big hits or initial pulls.
    Cleanse, removes on an 5 sec cool down, 3 Effects.
    Rush, is an group wide, movement speed buff.
    Grisly Cry, Aoe Fear with very long duration. (24sec with switch li?)
    Bee Swarm, is much stronger as you make it look, you forget that champs and wardens also deal physical damage, but the more important part on this spell is actually the -crittdeff, depended on the enemy/difficulty, this will make critts deal about +10-15% damage <-what is super huge for all dd*s (didn't tested it in the raid yet)
    Also the Vicious Claw Buff can more then often applied to an dd, if you have the t3 hot going you can switch beorns mark for a short time.
    One thing that is specific, but i saw several times, is the ability to offtank while being in yellowline.
    Also healing while moving is stronger then on mini/rk.

    I dont know why you listed also the minor ballads here and stuff like Cry of the chorus, this are only mini buffs and i would not count them as support/utility tools.


    Beo offers a wider spectrum of support, so it is very dependent on the situation if you can use all off this, or just 3 or 4 things. If he just can use the minority of his utility, minis support is better in most cases (but not by a lot), but overall the beo can use a lot of stuff what makes him potentially even better.

    Pls stop pretending to know, what people know and don't know, about the game.
    I won't further argue in this thread with you, marking something as nonsense, without taking every thing into account is not a good start in an argument.
    Gertes

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    What i find really nice of you that you know, what i'm knowing and what not.
    I didn't talked about the 2 outgoing damage debuffs. Beo has so much more utility then that.

    At first i want to add further utility you did not appreciated:

    Sacrifice, is a strong defensive CD for the tank, that makes him survive big hits or initial pulls.
    Cleanse, removes on an 5 sec cool down, 3 Effects.
    Rush, is an group wide, movement speed buff.
    Grisly Cry, Aoe Fear with very long duration. (24sec with switch li?)
    Bee Swarm, is much stronger as you make it look, you forget that champs and wardens also deal physical damage, but the more important part on this spell is actually the -crittdeff, depended on the enemy/difficulty, this will make critts deal about +10-15% damage <-what is super huge for all dd*s (didn't tested it in the raid yet)
    Also the Vicious Claw Buff can more then often applied to an dd, if you have the t3 hot going you can switch beorns mark for a short time.
    One thing that is specific, but i saw several times, is the ability to offtank while being in yellowline.
    Also healing while moving is stronger then on mini/rk.

    I dont know why you listed also the minor ballads here and stuff like Cry of the chorus, this are only mini buffs and i would not count them as support/utility tools.


    Beo offers a wider spectrum of support, so it is very dependent on the situation if you can use all off this, or just 3 or 4 things. If he just can use the minority of his utility, minis support is better in most cases (but not by a lot), but overall the beo can use a lot of stuff what makes him potentially even better.

    Pls stop pretending to know, what people know and don't know, about the game.
    I won't further argue in this thread with you, marking something as nonsense, without taking every thing into account is not a good start in an argument.
    Sorry, I had assumed you had played the beorning at least once and that you knew the damage buffs were the only thing worth mentioning.
    I told you that what you said was nonsense, because it was. The Beorning is NOT a stronger support healer than the minstrel. The Beorning currently has stronger critical heals than the minstrel as a result of the recent patch breaking things.

    Don’t come on these forums and tell me an aoe fear is stronger than mitigation buffs to the fellowship. Grisly cry is an awful skill.
    1) Sacrifice is not going to save a tank, if your tank cannot take a hit from an initial pull, when the damage is redirected to you, a healer, you will not tank it any better. You will die, then your tank will die.
    2) -7k crit Defence is basically zero added damage. It’s not the magical 10-15% you think it is. It reduces a mobs crit Defence by 7k, their values are in the hundreds of thousands.
    3) mark switching to give one dps a 5-15% damage buff for 5-10 seconds and letting all your roar HoTs drop off the tank is just a stupid thing to do. You’re going to kill your tank.
    4) off tanking in yellow line could be done, we do have a single target force attack that we have while in every trait line. The only reason to do this however would be if the tank died and you’re waiting for him to accept your in combat Rez.
    5) healing on the move....I’m quite confident by now that you have no idea what you’re talking about. The only skill a bear cannot use on the move is relentless maul. This is just where you’re a sour minstrel player because the beorning has a bigger heal number than you. Like I said, the class is incomplete and needs a bigger skill pool and reduced HoTs from encouraging roar, and a removed abyss set bonus.
    6) Cleanse is our strongest support skill. Nothing more to say there, it’s a good skill. It can only realistically be used on the tank, not yourself or the fellowship though.
    7) we have rush, hooray. +25% movespeed is sometimes nice.

    I’d rather have on demand bubbles, incoming healing buffs to fellow, self outgoing healing buffs besides slash, more than 15-20m range on heals (maul only reaches 15 meters), we need more skills overall. 4.5 heals is not sufficient when your aoe heal is a one-time 9s cooldown heal. I gave maul half a point because of 15m range and 30s cooldown.
    I’m not here to argue with you, I’m here to prove you wrong so that when others read this they don’t take you seriously.

    My overall point here, on the test forums, is to ask you (everyone) to stop crying wolf about the bear. If you directly nerf our skills as everyone keeps asking then we will entirely lose our ability to heal group content until this game dies. The minstrel needs work, the bear needs work. Stop trying to fix your minstrel by severely nerfing bear.
    Last edited by dsltn07; Jan 11 2019 at 11:42 AM.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    But currently, we have much more severe issues: ####ed up mainstats that are worth nothing, ridiculous ILI grind that prevents casuals and newcomers from getting into endgame in a reasonable time... and staying on-topic^^
    The reason I’ve been defending the beorning is because in every current thread on the forums, if the beorning is mentioned (always when healing or minstrel is brought up) it is regarded to need severe nerfs to the skills because very few people understand the actual reason it’s so strong right now. I get tired of reading disgruntled minstrels wanting their class fixed by nerfing another class that is very much still a work in progress.

    The most interesting thing is that healing has been considered the only workable role since beorning release 4-5 years ago. However, if you read many of these posts, I’ve seen people try to reason that the beorning is a “support” class and not a healer at all. I had someone try and tell me (incorrectly) in game yesterday that my beorning is more like a captain than a healer, and even captains have stronger heals. This is the sort of misinformation I try to correct. Sorry for detailing the topic a bit. Though, it had already been derailed by the minstrel discussion, which inevitably leads to bear nerf discussion.

  11. #61
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    The reason I’ve been defending the beorning is because in every current thread on the forums, if the beorning is mentioned (always when healing or minstrel is brought up) it is regarded to need severe nerfs to the skills because very few people understand the actual reason it’s so strong right now. I get tired of reading disgruntled minstrels wanting their class fixed by nerfing another class that is very much still a work in progress.
    This is going soo off topic here^^

    Anyway: First I also thought that the Beo needed a SLIGHT nerf + mini heals needed a buff. He is esp really strong with the Mordor set. I am playing without it because I didn't get it back then and I have to say he is just fine. If you are not able to stand in melee range you really need a good rotation and If you stand melee you are quite vulnerable. The minis buffs are really a game changer. He does not need that much of a buff.

    I still think that inspire fellows of the mini should heal a bit more though and bugs should be fixes of course.
    Last edited by Hildilas; Jan 12 2019 at 03:45 AM.

 

 
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