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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    The devs aren't able, at least they failed the last years, to balance the three dpser or the three tanks, and now they should balanced every offtrait this wouldn't work.
    We've seen it on the beos they tried they can do everything, now they defined the healer role for them and itvworks they can do their job. The three healers are balanced atm, beo give the most with nearly nö other benefits, rk the second with a bit of defensive support and the lifesaving bubbles, minis the last but for that a lot of offensive support.
    Beos also offer a lot of offensive support, also some defensive, in my opinion they are almost equal (if not better) to minis, when it comes to support.
    Gertes

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    wardens don't care.
    So wardens dots dont get reduced by reduced critmag?
    Sure, they have higher base damage and such are hit less with that... but dont care is quite exaggerated, isnt it?
    And imo, its good if enemies have critdef. That way, critdef debuffs finally are good for something.
    I still dont like how critdef works and how high critmags generally are... and I dont think 100% critdef is a good idea... but it still affects everyone.
    Diskutierer, Fragenbeantworter, Twinker, Händler, Handwerker und Gründer der 'Gemeinschaft der freien Völker' auf Belegaer.
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  3. #53
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    2,512
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    So wardens dots dont get reduced by reduced critmag?
    Sure, they have higher base damage and such are hit less with that... but dont care is quite exaggerated, isnt it?
    And imo, its good if enemies have critdef. That way, critdef debuffs finally are good for something.
    I still dont like how critdef works and how high critmags generally are... and I dont think 100% critdef is a good idea... but it still affects everyone.
    It affects everyone but not everyone with the same strenght. Dot classes are less crit depentent as bustsmg classes. Some dots even can't crit.
    While champs and so on loose a whole factor which will reduce their dps around 20%, while dot classes maybe loose 10% of not even less.

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    Piercing roar traited and applied to marked target - tooltip says -40% outgoing damage.
    - this is misleading because it reduces mob mastery rating by 40%, which amounts to roughly -5% damage. Keep in mind this is a long cooldown limited time skill as well that costs a solid amount of wrath.
    30s CD, 12s duration and no wrath costs... your definitions of long and a solid amount are weird.

    And if beornings heal three times as much as minstrels, it doesnt matter if minstrel has +100% outgoing healing while being a bad healer.

    Anthem of War is only all-time-up as blue minstrel, if you either have bossfights shorter than 3min and use traitline switching OR if you trait for it and such miss some great yellow traits like 12% outgoing healing or the (bugged) bonus hot or 5% tactical mits. And if you argue with beornings debuffs being weaker than their tooltips tell you... then the same is true for minstrels buffs like Anthem of War. Sure, Anthem of war is better for tactical DPSers... but for physical damage, bee debuff is clearly and by far better. physical damage is just mostly melee, not wanted and the only non-melee physical damage class can switch to fire which has much better debuffs.

    Tales are yellow-line, not blue.

    btw: you missed one of the best buffs minstrels can apply to the group concerning healing:
    +10% inc healing and +10% outgoing healing for longer than any bossfight takes via mounted combat buff.
    Last edited by Oelle; Jan 10 2019 at 02:39 PM.
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  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    I forgot piercing does not cost wrath, still 12s duration for 30s cooldown is not exactly a big help.

    Regarding healing amounts, you clearly ignored the entire preface of my post. Not going to rewrite for you to ignore.

    I said I do not know mini well anymore, thanks for the reminder on the mounted bug, the trait swapping, and tales.

    You ignored all the other buffs like mits the mini buffs along with skills boosts from cry and Hammerhand bubble.

    Bears increase damage by 15% SOME of the time, and reduce physical mits by 15%. Reducing physical mits by 15% is NOT equal to increasing physical damage by 15%. The current problem groups are having with the new raid is not doing damage, it’s staying alive. Mini skill and mit buffs are far more useful for a group right now than +15-20% damage.

    Now that we’ve established mini has better buff/debuff capabilities, the only major discrepancy is the amount of heals.
    The problem is that bears realistically only have 4 regular healing skills. The two in man form are handicapped (hearten with its 15s CD and 8s duration). Bellow is good, but with its 9s cd is not reliable. That leaves us with encouraging roar (ER). ER HoT scaled too hard with the tact heal rating fix, yes. The secondary problem to that however is that the abyss set applies the ER bonus to the fellowship. Supposedly it was fixed in the last patch, it was not. Supposedly it was fixed this patch, I don’t yet know, we will see.
    In short, bears are not yet a complete class and need more skills. If we balance the class around a SINGLE skill, of course it’s going to be poorly balanced. You can’t have one single skill do everything, it’s poor design.
    Well... I didnt comment on most other things, because there was no need to. it was right :P´

    Last time I checked my traittree, all hammerhand bubble bonustrait gives is 3000 mastery. thats nothing. and bubbles vanish with the first incoming hit anyway, because they are so tiny.
    You are right: reducing 15% physmits does not translate into 15% more physdamage. Its usually MUCH better than that. More in the region of +20% to +30% physdamage. Still... no one deals phys damage, because ranged DPS is much easier and fire is the better damagetype anyway, so who cares?

    Still, I completely agree: minstrels buffs are far better for keeping the group alive.

    And I completely agree, that beornings are still incomplete and should have several more skills for each of their roles or some more general skills, that do different things depending on the chosen traitline.

    Minstrels are the better buffers, beornings the better debuffers, but all usefull beornings debuffs are offensive as all the defensive beornings debuffs are weak. Just like LMs are better debuffers and cappies better buffers. the only other class that truly cares about debuffs from minstrels is warden. No one else notices -25k light mits.
    If beornings 3x "-3% damage", "-10% damage" and "-20/40% damage" actually did that, aka worked multiplicative like LMs or yellowburgs debuffs, then beornings defensive debuffs would actually be great... but they aren't. I'm asking Turbine/SSG since years to make more things multiplicative as additive stacking is annoying and misleading. But they dont listen, sadly. So many mechanical things would work much better if they did.

    But currently, we have much more severe issues: ####ed up mainstats that are worth nothing, ridiculous ILI grind that prevents casuals and newcomers from getting into endgame in a reasonable time... and staying on-topic^^
    Last edited by Oelle; Jan 10 2019 at 04:54 PM.
    Diskutierer, Fragenbeantworter, Twinker, Händler, Handwerker und Gründer der 'Gemeinschaft der freien Völker' auf Belegaer.
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  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    Both of these opinions are incorrect. Stop spouting off nonsense you know nothing about.
    What i find really nice of you that you know, what i'm knowing and what not.
    I didn't talked about the 2 outgoing damage debuffs. Beo has so much more utility then that.

    At first i want to add further utility you did not appreciated:

    Sacrifice, is a strong defensive CD for the tank, that makes him survive big hits or initial pulls.
    Cleanse, removes on an 5 sec cool down, 3 Effects.
    Rush, is an group wide, movement speed buff.
    Grisly Cry, Aoe Fear with very long duration. (24sec with switch li?)
    Bee Swarm, is much stronger as you make it look, you forget that champs and wardens also deal physical damage, but the more important part on this spell is actually the -crittdeff, depended on the enemy/difficulty, this will make critts deal about +10-15% damage <-what is super huge for all dd*s (didn't tested it in the raid yet)
    Also the Vicious Claw Buff can more then often applied to an dd, if you have the t3 hot going you can switch beorns mark for a short time.
    One thing that is specific, but i saw several times, is the ability to offtank while being in yellowline.
    Also healing while moving is stronger then on mini/rk.

    I dont know why you listed also the minor ballads here and stuff like Cry of the chorus, this are only mini buffs and i would not count them as support/utility tools.


    Beo offers a wider spectrum of support, so it is very dependent on the situation if you can use all off this, or just 3 or 4 things. If he just can use the minority of his utility, minis support is better in most cases (but not by a lot), but overall the beo can use a lot of stuff what makes him potentially even better.

    Pls stop pretending to know, what people know and don't know, about the game.
    I won't further argue in this thread with you, marking something as nonsense, without taking every thing into account is not a good start in an argument.
    Gertes

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Germany
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    725
    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    The reason I’ve been defending the beorning is because in every current thread on the forums, if the beorning is mentioned (always when healing or minstrel is brought up) it is regarded to need severe nerfs to the skills because very few people understand the actual reason it’s so strong right now. I get tired of reading disgruntled minstrels wanting their class fixed by nerfing another class that is very much still a work in progress.
    This is going soo off topic here^^

    Anyway: First I also thought that the Beo needed a SLIGHT nerf + mini heals needed a buff. He is esp really strong with the Mordor set. I am playing without it because I didn't get it back then and I have to say he is just fine. If you are not able to stand in melee range you really need a good rotation and If you stand melee you are quite vulnerable. The minis buffs are really a game changer. He does not need that much of a buff.

    I still think that inspire fellows of the mini should heal a bit more though and bugs should be fixes of course.
    Last edited by Hildilas; Jan 12 2019 at 02:45 AM.

  8. #58
    My two cents as a warden main since moria is this.. Wardens are High end if not top tier DD's rn, but neither the best in ST or AoE respectively. That said, from my *Limited* playtime on other classes competing for those 2 spots, warden is far mor complex and imho rightfully deserves to be a contender for both if in the right hands. The issue I see with DoT pulses is that unless you handicap yourself by using old gear with set bonus' for +DoT Pulses, there IS NO way to complete a full dot rotation(Which to me is 3 AoE fist dots, 2 ST fist dots, and 3 spear dots, considering worthwhile gambits.) That said, from testing I could do, buffed and traited for attack speed, I could NOT finish that rotation in under 23s, which means they are not able to keep a full rotation in swing concurrently. Considering the complexity, I'd say they could definitely use +1/+2 more pulses, possibly 3, and if NEEDED, maybe lower the damage output very slightly. Again, this is just my opinion, but the complexity of playing a warden skillfully enough for endgame is far more difficult in my eyes then any other class contending(Except maybe RK which I have not played at all whatsoever...)

  9. #59
    What?

  10. #60
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Australia
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    4,033
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    did you even read the last part? They may nerf the damage anytime they want, but with just 16/20s duration, wardens rotation is annoying. There are several ways to reduce damage, but the duration needs to raise. Same for blue wardens buffs.
    The point of the 16sec duration was intentional. Wardens have always had among the most utility in their skills out of any class - the 16sec ticks on self heals and DoTs was made so that the warden was not able to have the best of all possible worlds.

    Either you needed to choose:

    • Full throttle DPS


    or

    • Full throttle self heals
    • Or partial self heals, partial defensive bonuses
    • Or partial DPS, partial self heals.


    Extending the DoT duration has been one of the largest contributing factors as to why Wardens have been OP at various times throughout PvMP history. I hate that our DPS turned almost solely into our DoTs. Yes, we are DoT based DPS in terms of our DPS gambits, but it was not originally designed so that the DoTs themselves contain almost 90% of our damage potential. In my opinion, these kinds of changes have been incredibly poor design choices.

    I want back the days that Wardens Triumph could crit for 25% of the wardens own HP on NPCs. I want back the day that you needed to use more than a single restoration gambit in between a DoT rotation to perform up to 60% of your self healing.

    I want there to be better trade-offs once again.

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Constrictions View Post
    I want back the days that Wardens Triumph could crit for 25% of the wardens own HP on NPCs.
    It still does that .. even more nowadays. The problem is, that warden dots crit for even more ...

  12. #62
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Australia
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    4,033
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorondir View Post
    It still does that .. even more nowadays. The problem is, that warden dots crit for even more ...
    Still implies it has always done that.

    Curious to see a 100-130k wardens triumph, without any buffs beyond what the warden can do themselves.

    In tank line.

    Thanks

 

 
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