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  1. #1

    Red line and bear form vs man form

    Hello, i have just started recently using the beorn but i wanted to discuss the current red line situation and what i believe could help it become better at its job and also more fun to play.
    As it stands right now dps in red line has one big problem that is the lack of wrath spending cooldowns and the lack of consistent aoe damage.

    To fix this what if claw swipe from blue line became a universal skill with diferent effects based on tree line:
    Bleed in red
    Damage debuff in blue
    And small shield in yellow.
    This way while in red we would have a low cooldown aoe bleed damage that uses wrath

    Another option would be to make biting edge usable as a bear in red line to make use of the increased bear damage and to give us more skills while in bear.

    Any other ideas to make red line bear feel less reliable on long cooldown skills?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by joaothehunter View Post
    Hello, i have just started recently using the beorn but i wanted to discuss the current red line situation and what i believe could help it become better at its job and also more fun to play.
    As it stands right now dps in red line has one big problem that is the lack of wrath spending cooldowns and the lack of consistent aoe damage.

    To fix this what if claw swipe from blue line became a universal skill with diferent effects based on tree line:
    Bleed in red
    Damage debuff in blue
    And small shield in yellow.
    This way while in red we would have a low cooldown aoe bleed damage that uses wrath

    Another option would be to make biting edge usable as a bear in red line to make use of the increased bear damage and to give us more skills while in bear.

    Any other ideas to make red line bear feel less reliable on long cooldown skills?
    Red rotation is fine.
    You spend wrath with Execute.
    Rest of the time is nice to sit on full wrath because of crit chanse.
    You switch to human every 15 seconds to refresh expose and to aply bleeds/ + some extra wrath/ with bitting edge.
    Blue is more than valid and need no changes. Just little polish here and there.
    Yellow is more than op.

    Red line never be reliable because of one reason. Its mele.
    The curent mechanic we have in lotro is against mele dps. And not only this expansion.
    Boss/mobs do frontal dmg, and in the same time tank need to kite so is hard to face them off. Fires on the grounds (trash in TG). Or just get Caverns last boss as an example, is far from mele friendly.
    If you want to be mele, you need to pick tank or support rolle. Or you will be always the last guy needed.
    Ask any mele dps do they ever do caverns. No reason to skip one of the 3 instances we have, only to play as mele :P

  3. #3
    Guess I’m not sure why the need to harp on staying in bear form. 15 second cycle into man form for expose+biting(AoE + dot) back into bear with thrash+Rending blow+bash. Every 3rd rotation expose+ferocious roar then directly into bear form for a guaranteed crit on all hits from relentless maul (which does far more damage than execute and is also limited arc AoE). Just including expose not to mention the rest Seems to be far more damage output than spamming thrash. You still get a bash every cooldown. Is it a purest thing?

  4. #4

    @Pavlin and Joaothehunter

    If you ask me Joaothehunter has a very valid point. Beornings need more AoE damage, the only real AoE skill we have is Relentless maul. Which is mediocre without 100% crit.

    Nobody uses execute--- Reason? You loose dps if you use it. In its current state Execute is not a great skill. --- How do we fix it? Give us proc chance back and make it so it doesn't take ALL your wrath. OR, Make it so i CAN crit, with a reduced CD.

    @Joaothehunter----- Swipe as a universal skill, agreed. Give us traits for all the lines that are useful. (this might will help reds current trait tree. Alot of the traits are useless, if SSG adds swipe to the trees it will make red trait tree more useful. Which alot of the traits are NOT.)

    I disagree about biting edge for bear form.---- reason? I would only have two reasons to switch back man form. Refresh expose (by changing forms, if you didnt know it refreshes expose if you switch forms.) And Slash bleed. If you keep biting edge, you have more of a reason.

    More skills that have wrath cost.
    1) Could use more then swipe and RM for AoE
    2) A maul skill. Single target high damage skill. Beorning needs more then just execute. Provided SSG fixes it.


    Note if you disagree with me, feel free to criticize my points. Im open minded for different ways to fix the beo.

    Been playing beorning since launch, and mine is capped.

  5. #5
    Agreed on execute, it needs to be redone.
    Agreed on biting edge, making it a bear skill would be silly.
    Agreed bear needs more skills. Maybe claw swipe. I’d also lean towards the red capstone allowing thrash T1 & T2 to hit 3 targets as well as T3.

    A few skill ideas just popped into my head that I think would fit the class well:

    Bowl Over - A skill similar to warg pounce that refreshes bleeds from man form (because their duration is too short, you could also give it a different effect, but then the bleeds need more duration)

    Cry of wrath - man skill that spreads active bleeds from main target enemy to all enemies hit within 10m. Take the animation from the hunter burn hot. Ideally this would spread slash bash and biting edge. You could make the skill a 1min cd with a legacy to reduce it by 30s. This would give us higher burst aoe damage and encourage stacking our dots on main target as fast as we can and maintaining them. Keep in mind that our bleeds only last around 10-12 seconds currently so they could not run constantly.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by morrthe View Post
    If you ask me Joaothehunter has a very valid point. Beornings need more AoE damage, the only real AoE skill we have is Relentless maul. Which is mediocre without 100% crit.
    I agree that Beorning needs more AoE. Honestly, I would like to see them even become an AoE class. I mean thematically, why does a raging bear overflowing with wrath target one enemy at a time before moving on to the next? In my opinion, Beorning DPS should really be like a bomb on the battlefield. Maybe not quite Champ-tier AoE, but it definitely should be a lot more potent than it is now.

    Quote Originally Posted by morrthe View Post
    Nobody uses execute--- Reason? You loose dps if you use it. In its current state Execute is not a great skill. --- How do we fix it? Give us proc chance back and make it so it doesn't take ALL your wrath. OR, Make it so i CAN crit, with a reduced CD.
    Agreed. If we had the Wrath-free Execute procs back, it would actually be worth using then.

    Quote Originally Posted by morrthe View Post
    @Joaothehunter----- Swipe as a universal skill, agreed. Give us traits for all the lines that are useful. (this might will help reds current trait tree. Alot of the traits are useless, if SSG adds swipe to the trees it will make red trait tree more useful. Which alot of the traits are NOT.)
    I like this suggestion as well, as it would definitely fill a vital role in red-line, both providing a short cooldown AoE skill and a Wrath-sink. I'm not sure what purpose it would have for yellow. Worst case scenario, I would say change the trait Raging Blow to proc on Claw Swipe rather than Vicious Claws.

    Quote Originally Posted by morrthe View Post
    I disagree about biting edge for bear form.---- reason? I would only have two reasons to switch back man form. Refresh expose (by changing forms, if you didnt know it refreshes expose if you switch forms.) And Slash bleed. If you keep biting edge, you have more of a reason.
    Agree here as well. I honestly think man-form and bear-form both should be reworked a bit to have more distinction. I think it would be interesting if man-form was single target damage, and bear-form was AoE. You still have vital buffs/bleeds in both forms to maintain, but it would make you pick and choose to do one over the other more situationally.

    Quote Originally Posted by morrthe View Post
    More skills that have wrath cost.
    1) Could use more then swipe and RM for AoE
    2) A maul skill. Single target high damage skill. Beorning needs more then just execute. Provided SSG fixes it.
    Agreed, so long as the Wrath cost is warranted. The last thing I would want to see is a meaningless Wrath-sink being forced into the rotation without actually being worth using.


    Now for my suggestions:

    Bear-form:
    1. Expose should be re-enabled in bear-form at max potency, but cost Wrath instead of grant Wrath while in bear-form.
    2. Having a bear-only skill which not only refreshes the Bash bleed, but spreads it as well would be interesting in my opinion. Maybe this is what Claw Swipe could be, spreading the Bash bleed to all targets hit?
    3. Broad Thrash (red capstone) should make all tiers of Thrash AoE.
    4. Relentless Maul should have a reduced cooldown in red-line. Maybe down to ~15s? Could be an active cooldown reduction, something like every t3 Thrash used reduces the cooldown by 2s? This would give the following:
      t3 Thrash Uses/30s 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
      RM Effective Cooldown 30 28 26 24 22 20 18 16
    5. Something to spread/refresh the Bash bleed. Claw Swipe, if made a universal skill, would fill this role very well.
    6. Execute Wrath-free procs should be reintroduced to make the skill actually useful.

    Man-form:
    1. Slash bleed should tier down instead of expire.
    2. Slam needs to do more damage to be a useful DPS skill, especially since it has no bleed component.
    3. Vicious Claws still would refresh Bash bleed while in man-form.
    4. Execute enabled in man-form as well, having greatly increased damage when used in man-form, but always will cost Wrath.
    5. Give Expose a secondary effect when used in man-form maybe? Just something to incentivize it being used even if the buff is active already.


    Some of these are just spitballing, some are actually things I've been thinking about. I'm sure it's pretty obvious which are which. Man-form suggestions are kind of hard though, as there really aren't a lot of skills available, or any interesting rotation to build off of.
    Last edited by ColMcStacky; Jan 15 2019 at 11:39 AM.

  7. #7
    Looks like we are all pretty well on the same page for red line. The challenge is implementing brand new skills for man form to create a unique rotation.. I envisioned the cry I suggested above consuming a lot of wrath in man form and working similarly to captains routing cry animation/range wise, purpose being to spread active bleeds to targets.. It would also be a meaningful wrath sink, somewhere around a 20-30s cooldown that costs 50-70 wrath. This would encourage high wrath generation to spend it so you could maintain aoe bleeds.

    I like the idea for thrash reducing maul cooldown.

    A trait I thought of: Blood Wrath (or something like that) - Increases bleed crit magnitude by 20%

    Wanted to repeat that I think execute behaving mechanically like merciful shot would be healthy.

    Swipe in yellow could replace the vicious trait, apply to fellowship per target hit: +2% damage. 3 targets hit would be +6% damage for fellow. 5 targets would be 10%. Or you could go the other way and increase inc. healing by 5% etc.
    Or you could increase Mark of Grimbeorn mits by .5% stacking per target hit by claw swipe, max at 1.5% with 30s duration. So fighting boss it takes you minimum 9 seconds of claw swipe to stack the 1.5%. Pulling a group of 3 or more would increase straight to 1.5% cap

    There’s a hundred different effects, the question is just balance. Survivability due to mit caps is currently the issue in raid regardless of heals (oneshots) this would help.

    The thing I’m most keen on is adding new skills and skill synergy to make the class more engaging to play. Maybe add some skills that unlock or refresh on crit hit, or even dev crit hit.
    Slam having a secondary effect related to red line would be nice.

  8. #8
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    To the aoe: I would simply change the broad trash trait as follows:

    trash is aoe - 5 targets (all tiers)
    trash t1 spreads slash dot
    trash t2 spreads biting edge dot
    trash t3 spreads bash dot

    these dots won´t be renewed on the selected target, just spread. This would create nice melee aoe dot class.

    to the execute: I would change it to the 10s cd, 60 wrath cost, no bonus dmg from wrath and hard hitting (like, really HARD hitting).

    ------------

    I would also change:

    the trait any advantage (slam heals if hitting from behind) to +100% wrath gain for slam (thus +20 wrath gain instead of +10).

    If the execute would be a thing, quicker wrath gain would be welcomed. Repeating slash while its dot is already on t3 seems slow and strange to me, so I would solve it this way.

    the line bonus festering wounds (+3 pulses bash) to the +3 pulses to all dots.

    Slash t3 dot is currently more important than trash tier 3 (check the discussion in thread dps rotation). Prolonging the dot of slash would make possible to use both trash t3 and have the dot slash t3 permanently.

    I would allow bash to stack, but it can´t be renewed through visious claws.

    I would like to keep the vicious claw just as interrupt. Otherwise one would most likely again avoid using execute, so one has enough wrath to maintaining as many bash dots as possible.

    I still would add some low dmg, low cd, 10 wrath cost skill in bear form with some nice upside (e.g. reducing cd on FR or Call of Wild).

    the trait Call of Wild: I would add some sort of increased dmg buff to it. Like +20-50% crit magnitude.

    Currently on live we have no issues with wrath and no reason to stay longer in bear form. Thus I think it would be nice if it would have some straight damage buff. Since it simplifies the wrath management and more wrath = better crit, the bonus to crit magnitude seems nice fit to it.
    Ich bin kein Deutscher, sorry für Grammatik.
    English isn't my native language, sorry for mistakes.

  9. #9
    Nice ideas so far guys, I'm not sure we'll be getting any more sizeable changes like these but it's nice to have them all in one thread anyway so the information is out there. If I was to add my two cents:


    Consider reworking Biting Edge/Serrated Edge so it stays as 2 AoE attacks and, instead of gaining its own bleed, can spread Slash & Bash bleeds once you start putting points into the trait.

    1 point - If you hit a target with a Slash or Bash bleed active then those bleeds will spread to the 3 nearest enemies within 5 metres.
    2 points - Same as above but those bleeds will spread to the 5 nearest enemies instead of 3.
    3 points - Same as above and also gain +x% bleed critical magnitude.

    One side effect is that you will also gain a bit more more benefit from Opposing Presence since it only ever boosted the first attack of Biting Edge once you had traited for the bleed. Also as regards refreshing/overwriting bleeds, to work well I think Biting Edge in this example shouldn't be able to do either. So the bleeds would run out if you are just fighting a single target and you would have to directly use Slash/Bash to refresh their duration or reapply them. But with multiple mobs you could in theory use Biting Edge to bounce the bleeds back and forwards between them and keep them pulsing to some degree throughout the fight.


    Festering Wounds applying +3 pulses to all bleeds definitely makes sense instead of just Bash.


    Given the above it might make sense to remove the Bash bleed refresh from Vicious Claws so it can remain as a high damage interrupt.


    Potentially stop Bestial Fury from applying to auto-attacks as well as skills since that is part of what is trivializing the wrath management in red line. +3 wrath after crits from skill use is already quite a lot.


    Broad Thrash making all Thrash tiers AoE is pretty logical as well not just the 3rd.


    Consider dropping Execute's cost to 25 (50?) wrath with a 3 (5?) second cooldown, damage adjusted as necessary while taking into account the next part below also.


    Call To Wild to ideally become even more of a wrath accelerator that grants +5 wrath to your generators, to your bonus wrath from Bestial Fury and to your ticks of passive bear generation while active. I mean it's literally only 15 seconds of every 2 minutes we're talking about so it could justifiably have other more potent effects also. The most obvious use would be to enable you to hit with multiple Executes in a short space of time without completely draining your wrath bar and hurting your critical rating as a result. That might not play out in the most interesting way though admittedly so it could probably use some work...I'm just in agreement that the current forms of both Execute and Call To Wild aren't fit for purpose.


    Bring back bear form Expose and if needed rename it or change the colour of its icon so we know it's a distinct version of the skill. It's intended use would be to mirror man form Expose's functionality but affect avoidances instead of mitigations. So you would have:

    Man form Expose which grants -x% target's mitigation and will refresh if you switch into bear form while it is active.
    Bear form Expose which grants -x% target's avoidance and will refresh if you switch into man form while it is active.

    So we get to juggle the two buffs together instead of just one, with both refreshes being provided by the set bonus trait Battle Born.


    One last thing I would like to add is that I would be pretty disappointed if the Slam heal was removed by changing the Any Advantage trait. As a melee dpser we're aiming to be behind the target so being able to sustain our morale a little while healers are focused elsewhere strikes me as a good option to have. It's decent solo as well with the Lumber interaction, it quite often gets me through fights where Hearten/Composure aren't quite enough to keep me going.

  10. #10
    The only other thing to be careful of aelbryht is that biting edge is currently our strongest bleed. If it goes away I’d like slash/bash to scale up a bit more.

  11. #11

    Agreed on most of the things

    I agree on the thrash CD reductions for RM. Good idea, glad we have people thinking out loud. Also agree that ALL tiers of Thrash should hit 3-5 targets.

    Bleed crit multiplier would be awesome. Also i would like to see a bleed legacy. (keep it balanced)

    I like the idea of man form special debuffs and bear form debuffs, would have to keep it balanced. A way of keeping it balanced is by having, say the bear form debuffs be more potent while your actually in bear form and be less potent in man form for balance. Provided the debuffs are enough of a debuff that they can do that. Otherwise you just get both debuffs up, apply your bleeds, and then do your normal rotation for max dps.

    Biting edge/serrated edge, i strongly disagree that we should take the bleed away. Unless of course what dsltn07 said and make the other bleeds alot ALOT better. Biting edge currently is probably our best bleed (besides slash). Only reason slash out does biting edge right now is, biting edges CD is pretty long to reapply, and its bleed only lasts 6 seconds. So you can see my skepticism on getting rid of biting edges bleed, i honestly think it needs have a long duration not get rid of it.

    Call to Wild, i agree on the points made by Estelrandir. If execute had proc and could be used as many times as you can get while using this skill it would really help beorning dps. Call to Wild in its current state is next to useless, im never at low enough wrath for it to be useful and 7K mastery is useless. Replace mast for crit magnitude as suggested. i agree on 20-50%, Or increase over all damage by like 50%. One or the other, in addition to a higher proc for Execute. If it isn't plainly obvious by now execute is a REALLY bad skill.

    I agree that the beorning should mainly be an AoE class, maybe not as many targets as a champion, but make it really high 3-5 target dps. Honestly we need more AoE classes, Champion is really the best at AoE, dont want to change that. Just make it so it has more competition. Already have hunters and RKs for single target, already have LM and burg for debuffs, already have lots of tanks. I think it would add more interest to the beorning as a dps class.

    Beorning is already a good healer. (provided Minstrel mains dont complain. Keep the established healers so they are all viable, RK, beorning, and minstrel. Been seeing too much crying about minis going to be a useless class. Mini will always be viable, the beorning has NOT for most of its life so shove off and let the devs balance all three healers. Minstrel do NOT need to be the most OP healer simply because it was the first healer. Stop being whinnies about it, needs more variety in the healing role anyway.) I feel like this needed to be addressed.

    If you wanna criticize my points go ahead, im open to ideas.

    Thanks for all the changes thus far. Hopefully all further changes are made logically.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    The only other thing to be careful of aelbryht is that biting edge is currently our strongest bleed. If it goes away I’d like slash/bash to scale up a bit more.
    I agree if it was a change made in isolation, not so much if we might also get buffs to other existing skills or new skills that will take our dps ever higher. If we started by making Festering Wounds apply to all bleeds for example then it becomes a much simpler task to keep Slash 3 running and the Biting Edge bleed would run longer than the skill's cooldown so you could finally achieve 100% uptime (and a ~33% improvement in damage done by the bleed?). Broad Thrash being fully AoE and any mechanic that reduces the Relentless Maul cooldown will also both have a significant impact on our AoE performance (single target as well for Relentless Maul since it hits so hard) so we probably don't even need any mechanism for bleed spreading on top of all of that?

    I just thought that Biting Edge is well positioned to act as a spreader instead of some other choice like adding in Claw Swipe which is currently tied as a blue line exclusive, and if implemented well it could require a fair bit of judgement and timing to maximize it's dps potential. I suppose you can equally add it to a 1 target skill like Execute, the now defunct bear form Expose, or a man form cry as you suggested. Shifting approach slightly, maybe one other way of improving Execute could be to give it the ability to consume a bleed and deal AoE damage in a radius at the same time as its main hit. Or give it additional effects based on the bleeds that are active on a target when it hits. Who knows...it just doesn't work with the big cooldown, big wrath cost and not particularly big damage and maybe it can't ever be scaled high enough to justify the current costs. Going the other way back to it being a free proc on crits isn't great either since you basically just spam it as filler between other skills. It's about as stimulating as using Counterattack in blue line.

  13. #13
    @Aelbryht Thrash AoE might affect our AoE in a way that we wont need bleed spreads. But i think it is very unlikely, Thrash is mainly used for 15% damg buff (5% for each tier) Isnt really used for anything but buff unless your fighting more then 1 enemy. Thrash t1 has minor damage, almost the same as slash initial damage (Share same CD after all). t2 is a little more then armor crush. T3 is where all the damage is, but it isnt really worth it for anything besides initial buff. T3 has such a long animation that i need to use vicious claws to compensate for the agonizingly slow attack duration. Usually vicious claws is already on CD, so making each tier of thrash reduce CD of RM would make me have to use viscous claws for thrash t3 (which im fine with). I think it would be more useful if Thrash reduced the CD of biting edge, rather then relentless maul. Cause i only ever use RM with 100% crit, for dps. Have biting edge bleed duration increased so we can have it on 100% of the time, or reduce CD for each use of thrash, to have the same result.

    Agreed Festering wounds needs to apply to all bleeds. Claw swipe still needs to be accessible by red skill for wrath dumping. (Ive reconsidered it as a universal skill, i dont know how they would make it useful in yellow. Needs to be in red all the same) I wouldn't mind just having claw swipe in blues current form and having biting edge spread your bleed as you suggested. But my point i was making in my last post in this thread; Biting edge has the best bleed damage of the beorning. if it spreads bleed it will probably loose its own bleed. As i said its the best bleed beornings have right now. (im fine with it, IF it keeps its bleed) Only thing i would change on biting edge right now is give its bleed a longer duration, (or reduce CD every time thrash is used as i stated above. This way we could possibly have biting edge on 100% of the time.) Have claw swipe spread bleeds,(or completely new skill) or in a certain situation have bash spread the bleed. (or some other skill/skills) For example we could have swipe be swipe, and have something like after the third tier of slash, the next use of bash or biting edge or maybe even execute to spread the bleeds. (Which might be a way of making executes wrath cost worth it. Having a higher bleed crit magnitude the higher the wrath cost would be an interesting addition.)

    The reasoning of why we wanted Swipe in red, was a place to dump wrath and add more to the rotation of the class. If it isnt plainly obvious we need more skills on the beorning in general. Swipe was just a suggestion, we could keep it exclusively blue (add more to blue line this way) and add a completely different skill that spreads bleeds. Just as long as we have a way of wrath dumping. Wrathful (+3% crit chance for every 20 wrath) i think this trait would become less useful if we have all the wrath dumps. So i would keep its current values (maybe lower a little bit for the next proposition) Make it have crit magnitude as well so while our wrath dumping skills are on CD, we can still maintain our dps through another means. ( nothing too huge like 15% crit magnitude would be a good amount.)

    Im very skeptical of any suggestions of removing bleeds to spread bleeds. Because the main component of beornings dps is BLEEDs. So if we take one away to benefit the others, i think it would affect beornings overall dps more in a negative way than positive. We just need a way of spreading it Without taking one of the main things of our DPS. So new skills is probably the most positive way of fixing our wrath problems and making beorning able to do AoE.

    Call to wilds buff needs to be something other than mast and wrath generator. This skill would be more useful if it was crit magnitude like dsltn07 said. (Keep it balanced with above crit mag.) If we have wrath dumps skills this could be used to get full wrath to take advantage of Wrathful trait. ( keep wrath generator aspect.) The legacy would have to redone, make the mastery a permanent bonus and have more then just 7K, OR redo the legacy for crit mag. Base skill can be like 20% (crit mag) and the legacy would add another 25-45%. Pre imbuement should make it to like 30% (10% bonus). Would be 60% at full wrath. (which is still less than alot of the other crit multiplier legacies of other classes, mainly burg and hunter.)

    Execute might be fixed if its bonus wrath damage is 250%. If it still isnt fixed Even With the 250%, than i totally agree that it needs to act as merciful shot does. Or just make it like it was before with proc and crit.

    Im open to criticism. I like to hear other peoples point of view. The only way were gonna make this class a good class again, is by hearing each others concerns.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by morrthe View Post
    @Aelbryht Thrash AoE might affect our AoE in a way that we wont need bleed spreads. But i think it is very unlikely, Thrash is mainly used for 15% damg buff (5% for each tier) Isnt really used for anything but buff unless your fighting more then 1 enemy. Thrash t1 has minor damage, almost the same as slash initial damage (Share same CD after all). t2 is a little more then armor crush. T3 is where all the damage is, but it isnt really worth it for anything besides initial buff. T3 has such a long animation that i need to use vicious claws to compensate for the agonizingly slow attack duration. Usually vicious claws is already on CD, so making each tier of thrash reduce CD of RM would make me have to use viscous claws for thrash t3 (which im fine with). I think it would be more useful if Thrash reduced the CD of biting edge, rather then relentless maul. Cause i only ever use RM with 100% crit, for dps. Have biting edge bleed duration increased so we can have it on 100% of the time, or reduce CD for each use of thrash, to have the same result.

    Agreed Festering wounds needs to apply to all bleeds. Claw swipe still needs to be accessible by red skill for wrath dumping. (Ive reconsidered it as a universal skill, i dont know how they would make it useful in yellow. Needs to be in red all the same) I wouldn't mind just having claw swipe in blues current form and having biting edge spread your bleed as you suggested. But my point i was making in my last post in this thread; Biting edge has the best bleed damage of the beorning. if it spreads bleed it will probably loose its own bleed. As i said its the best bleed beornings have right now. (im fine with it, IF it keeps its bleed) Only thing i would change on biting edge right now is give its bleed a longer duration, (or reduce CD every time thrash is used as i stated above. This way we could possibly have biting edge on 100% of the time.) Have claw swipe spread bleeds,(or completely new skill) or in a certain situation have bash spread the bleed. (or some other skill/skills) For example we could have swipe be swipe, and have something like after the third tier of slash, the next use of bash or biting edge or maybe even execute to spread the bleeds. (Which might be a way of making executes wrath cost worth it. Having a higher bleed crit magnitude the higher the wrath cost would be an interesting addition.)

    The reasoning of why we wanted Swipe in red, was a place to dump wrath and add more to the rotation of the class. If it isnt plainly obvious we need more skills on the beorning in general. Swipe was just a suggestion, we could keep it exclusively blue (add more to blue line this way) and add a completely different skill that spreads bleeds. Just as long as we have a way of wrath dumping. Wrathful (+3% crit chance for every 20 wrath) i think this trait would become less useful if we have all the wrath dumps. So i would keep its current values (maybe lower a little bit for the next proposition) Make it have crit magnitude as well so while our wrath dumping skills are on CD, we can still maintain our dps through another means. ( nothing too huge like 15% crit magnitude would be a good amount.)

    Im very skeptical of any suggestions of removing bleeds to spread bleeds. Because the main component of beornings dps is BLEEDs. So if we take one away to benefit the others, i think it would affect beornings overall dps more in a negative way than positive. We just need a way of spreading it Without taking one of the main things of our DPS. So new skills is probably the most positive way of fixing our wrath problems and making beorning able to do AoE.

    Call to wilds buff needs to be something other than mast and wrath generator. This skill would be more useful if it was crit magnitude like dsltn07 said. (Keep it balanced with above crit mag.) If we have wrath dumps skills this could be used to get full wrath to take advantage of Wrathful trait. ( keep wrath generator aspect.) The legacy would have to redone, make the mastery a permanent bonus and have more then just 7K, OR redo the legacy for crit mag. Base skill can be like 20% (crit mag) and the legacy would add another 25-45%. Pre imbuement should make it to like 30% (10% bonus). Would be 60% at full wrath. (which is still less than alot of the other crit multiplier legacies of other classes, mainly burg and hunter.)

    Execute might be fixed if its bonus wrath damage is 250%. If it still isnt fixed Even With the 250%, than i totally agree that it needs to act as merciful shot does. Or just make it like it was before with proc and crit.

    Im open to criticism. I like to hear other peoples point of view. The only way were gonna make this class a good class again, is by hearing each others concerns.
    Hey I've no criticism to give since everyone is just sharing opinions. I've just been approaching things from the point that we can do 56k+ dps already without any changes and Vastin had made a comment before about he's not sure whether he would keep tuning us upwards so we would be a fully-fledged raid dpser.

    Using Sigvat's parse as a starting point, even a simple change like making Festering Wounds apply to all bleeds would potentially add another 3-4k dps to what he achieved just from the extra Serrated Edge bleed pulses alone. Not having to worry about refreshing Slash/Serrated Edge on such a tight timing would also leave more space in our rotation for Thrash use to keep our Raining Blows buff sustained at +15% physical mastery.

    The big complaint about Execute is the skewed balance between its damage and the wrath/crit % cost, so perhaps it could apply a bleed crit magnitude buff that would be timed to run long enough (10 seconds? 15 seconds?) to let you get back up to max wrath again and gain some benefit from it there also.

    Along the same lines, perhaps Call To Wild only needs something added like a mastery buff that runs in reverse to Wrathful. Say +50% mastery at 0 wrath, dropping 10% each 20 wrath until you're at +0% mastery when maxed again.

    Would they help with bringing Execute into our rotation and taking away some of the low wrath = low crit % pain that we currently have? You could see things like using Execute at full wrath, popping Call To Wild then FR+RM to benefit from the guaranteed crit at a higher level of mastery, then jumping black to wrath building and sustaining of bleeds.


    On the AoE side of things, two things to consider.

    For the 1st, maybe Broad Thrash could function better as a toggle so it's up to us whether we want Thrash to be AoE or not?

    2nd is, should we perhaps be looking at Bee Swarm for some help?

    To my mind the Greater Swarm style of buff makes much more sense in red than yellow line, so perhaps the Crippling Stings trait in red line could be changed so that the 1st point adds the AoE damage to Bee Swarm and then points 2-5 increase the amount of damage done. Or swap it around so points 1-4 increase damage and then the 5th point adds the AoE damage. Or maybe leave the trait alone and instead the skill could tie in to the same toggle mentioned above. So when you have 'Broad Thrash' (maybe renamed?) toggled on, using Bee Swarm would apply an extra AoE damage effect around the target.

    Yellow line could then have a revised Greater Swarm set bonus trait which firstly gives a small boost to tactical mastery and then makes it so that if Mark of Beorn is present then Debilitating Bees will also debuff 2-3% tactical mitigation per point spent.

  15. #15
    That 56k is best case scenario, with I’m sure excellent gear. Hunters and RKs do 140-160k on T2 mobs. Increasing our dps by a few thousand is not going to put pressure on main dps classes.

    I don’t think Vastin can/will change bees to be aoe the way you said because it would require giving red line the yellow line offensive mark.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelbryht View Post
    The big complaint about Execute is the skewed balance between its damage and the wrath/crit % cost, so perhaps it could apply a bleed crit magnitude buff that would be timed to run long enough (10 seconds? 15 seconds?) to let you get back up to max wrath again and gain some benefit from it there also.
    Actually the big complaint about Execute is it's not working properly, with capped Phys Mastery Execute only hits for 70ks due to only receiving +40% bonus damage from wrath instead of +250% which would put Execute in the 190-200k damage range.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aelbryht View Post
    Vastin had made a comment before about he's not sure whether he would keep tuning us upwards so we would be a fully-fledged raid dpser.
    Vastins standpoint from day 1 of working on Beornings was that "they are already great in landscape" for Red line dps so he never really intended to properly buff red line.
    I never really understood the "good enough for landscape" excuse from players but I was more disappointed to see a Dev also use it to justify ignoring a line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aelbryht View Post
    I've just been approaching things from the point that we can do 56k+ dps already without any changes
    Atm due to the skill Expose Beorning dps doesn't scale well from landscape to raids, that 56k+ figure which requires overcapped crit and phys mastery to reliably achieve is already 90% of what they can do in a instance/raid.

    My suggestion which I've seen a few others also ask before me is to nerf or remove Expose mit penetration, afterwards you could essentially double Beorning skill tooltips (excluding Relentless Maul) letting them be somewhat competitive. Doing both of those would also keep Beornings around where they are currently in landscape.

  17. #17
    I completely agree antophant, well said.

    I was also disappointed by the way Vastin’s post read, that red line was balanced for killing landscape mobs.
    With that same reasoning you could argue that a hunters mits should be capped at 20% since they are not ever hit in landscape. Not saying it’s a good idea, but it’s really poor logic.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Antophant View Post
    Actually the big complaint about Execute is it's not working properly, with capped Phys Mastery Execute only hits for 70ks due to only receiving +40% bonus damage from wrath instead of +250% which would put Execute in the 190-200k damage range.
    Yep that seems pretty consistently broken...the second bracketed portion of damage you see in the parse never gets applied. Hopefully it is picked up for a fix soon?


    Quote Originally Posted by Antophant View Post
    Vastins standpoint from day 1 of working on Beornings was that "they are already great in landscape" for Red line dps so he never really intended to properly buff red line.
    I never really understood the "good enough for landscape" excuse from players but I was more disappointed to see a Dev also use it to justify ignoring a line.
    I agree that balancing only for the landscape is never going to work. It's my preference that every class with a dps trait tree should actually be viable to take a raid dps spot if they are using that tree but that doesn't seem close to how the devs view things.


    Quote Originally Posted by Antophant View Post
    Atm due to the skill Expose Beorning dps doesn't scale well from landscape to raids, that 56k+ figure which requires overcapped crit and phys mastery to reliably achieve is already 90% of what they can do in a instance/raid.

    My suggestion which I've seen a few others also ask before me is to nerf or remove Expose mit penetration, afterwards you could essentially double Beorning skill tooltips (excluding Relentless Maul) letting them be somewhat competitive. Doing both of those would also keep Beornings around where they are currently in landscape.
    That's a shame since I thought it could maybe have some impact when dealing with the T2 buffs and more so with the even higher T3. Since the rework everything seems to be in place for adjusting our skill damage more easily so what you're suggesting is no doubt quite achievable if they really wanted to do it. I do hope they try to find time to make red line play in a more interesting way as well though and don't just take a superficial approach and buff us until competitive and then treat it as job done.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Antophant View Post

    Atm due to the skill Expose Beorning dps doesn't scale well from landscape to raids, that 56k+ figure which requires overcapped crit and phys mastery to reliably achieve is already 90% of what they can do in a instance/raid.

    My suggestion which I've seen a few others also ask before me is to nerf or remove Expose mit penetration, afterwards you could essentially double Beorning skill tooltips (excluding Relentless Maul) letting them be somewhat competitive. Doing both of those would also keep Beornings around where they are currently in landscape.


    THIS 100% - ATM expose is simply hindering the beorning balancing because since its value decreases a lot in raid enviroment you cant increase beorn dps in raids without making them gods in solo. Furthermore since switching forms refreshs expose it isnt really a fun skill to use as you simply use it once and then refresh via shapeshifting.

    my suggestion is to simply remove it or make it do something diferent (see below) and increase beorning skill damage to compensate for its removal.

    one skill that could replace expose could be as mentioned above claw swipe since its an aoe bleed that consumes wrath that would be really useful in red line or another idea a bear form aoe skill that costs wrath and gives a dot similar to bitting edge ( so that stacking both is the optimal aoe rotation) and reduces relentless maul cooldown for 2 sec for each mob hit that has bitting edge bleed ( 5 mobs reduce it by 10 sec)
    Last edited by joaothehunter; Jan 21 2019 at 12:02 PM. Reason: new ida

  20. #20
    Having expose consume a slash bleed for increased damage or to spread in an aoe would also be fantastic. Scaling higher with higher tier slash bleed. This would also open up more potential legacies to increase slash duration, and Beorning bleed damage. If you want to get creative, even Beorning bleed crit chance etc could be interesting.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    Having expose consume a slash bleed for increased damage or to spread in an aoe would also be fantastic. Scaling higher with higher tier slash bleed. This would also open up more potential legacies to increase slash duration, and Beorning bleed damage. If you want to get creative, even Beorning bleed crit chance etc could be interesting.
    This is a very interesting idea, I like it a lot. The only criticism I have about it is that it provides AoE to man-form, not bear-form when I think thematically it makes sense to be the other way around. What if Expose is enabled in bear-form (again), costs 10 Wrath instead of granting it, and consumes the Slash bleeds to do AoE damage instead of providing the mitigation bypass? This way we have a skill that is repurposed differently depending on what form you are in, and there's not another skill being thrown in to muck up our skillbars. It also helps to encourage more synergy between both forms by doing this, as both will be necessary to get the AoE damage from this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antophant View Post
    Atm due to the skill Expose Beorning dps doesn't scale well from landscape to raids, that 56k+ figure which requires overcapped crit and phys mastery to reliably achieve is already 90% of what they can do in a instance/raid.

    My suggestion which I've seen a few others also ask before me is to nerf or remove Expose mit penetration, afterwards you could essentially double Beorning skill tooltips (excluding Relentless Maul) letting them be somewhat competitive. Doing both of those would also keep Beornings around where they are currently in landscape.
    Completely agree here. This landscape/raid setting disparity really needs to be fixed in order for the class to become competitive in red-line.
    Last edited by ColMcStacky; Jan 22 2019 at 01:52 PM.

  22. #22
    Changing per form works for me, with man form consuming, and bear spreading. Would encourage more of a reason to swap situationally instead of “this form has higher dps”.

    It would make balance easier without the expose buff. If it is needed, then I’d rather -15% mit was replaced with something like +5% outgoing damage.
    Last edited by dsltn07; Jan 22 2019 at 02:46 PM.

  23. #23
    I think +5% outgoing damage instead of the mitigation bypass would be a really good way of balancing the beorning again. Although maybe something like +5% bear form damage so you utilize both forms. Possibly even add a legacy to make it apply to both forms or increase the damage even further.

    Bear form dps has always had higher base damage than manform, but after you get all the necessary stuff from bear form. (thrash damage buff, bash and armour crush) Manform becomes the form with more dps. Which to me i think it should be the other way around (aside from base damage). Man form always seemed the weaker of the forms, but the fact is, man form fire rate of skill is much faster and combine that with dual wielding plus bear form buffs manform is quite a bit higher. Would also be nice if the bear animations are faster for a faster fire rate. Possibly reduce CD of vicious claws while in bear form, Or give more immediate skills to cancel the horrendous handling of bear form. I have always liked bear form more cause you know.... its a freaking bear and it should do more damage than manform.

    Something that we should consider. Make manform skills necessary to maximize bear form. (like bearform is now for manform, only other way around.) seems kinda weird when a class that focuses on being a bear has less damage in bear. Make certain skills like expose work better for bearform add more skills that do that type of thing, buffs bear form but you have to be in manform to use it. Makes both forms seem needed that way. Although i dont want it complete opposite of what we have now. Right now bear is kinda underwhelming for sustained dps. keep man form bleeds, just make the skills buff the hell out of bear form so bear form is better. Make certain skills make certain bear form skills do AoE burst or AoE DoT, make it so it has variety. For example Slam could make execute cost no wrath for proc, or it could spread the bleed of bash. Have something like that. Every skill has a certain buff for certain skills of bearform. It might play like warden gambits a little bit. Which warden is probably one of the funnest classes in the game. Expose instead of mit debuff could spread slashes bleed with the next use of thrash or armour crush. Or something else could happen. Make manform so important to bear form that you still utilize both of them. But at the same time having it so 60- 70% of your dps is bear.

    Some of the ideas that i had for above example. (Cord said they needed specific ideas, trying my best)

    Expose makes it so next use of thrash spreads slash bleed, Or maybe something like relentless maul spreads bleed. Maybe even a crit multiplier for like 10s or something ( might combine with a legacy). Or possibly make proposed outgoing damage of expose be increased when combined with a certain bear form skill. This idea could really be implemented with most of the man form skills.

    Im sure this idea has lots of flaws but i really think this could be a VERY effective way of bear form dps. I totally agree that expose imbalances bearform almost entirely. Would something like above be a problem. Or do you have more ideas to add? would be a really interesting mechanic thats not quite gambit system but pretty close.

 

 

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