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  1. #1

    Questions for Cordovan

    I just want to know how Cordovan thinks about that.

    1. What kind of qualitytool is SSG using?
    There are many qualitytools out there to improve the quality.
    In my opinion it’s not bad to do a mistake, it’s just bad to do the same mistake more then one time.
    I just want to quote Albert Einstein here: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
    How about to use tools like FMEA?
    Did you know that you can measure a Company by the costs of their qualit?
    CoC should take 2/3 of the quality costs, while ConC should take 1/3.
    CoC = Costs of Conform = for example costs for a qualitytool
    ConC = Costs of not Conform = for example costs for bug fixes

    2. What should main Burglars do?
    Here are some hints:
    - Wait a second week for a hot fix, because dev’s were to busy last week.
    - Accept the weak class and try to find a useful spot like for Abyss of Mordath id2 (taking 90+ corruptions in 4mins).
    - Accept the weak class and stop running instances.
    - Switch to a other class, because there are to many Burglars out there and SSG wants to minimize them.
    ... Maybe switch to a Beo because a Beo can buff more damage and debuff at the same time.
    - Leave the game, because SSG doesn’t like people that wants to play a Burglar.

  2. #2
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    ISO 9001:2015

    ISO 9001:2015 sets out the criteria for a quality management system and is the only standard in the family that can be certified to (although this is not a requirement). It can be used by any organization, large or small, regardless of its field of activity. In fact, there are over one million companies and organizations in over 170 countries certified to ISO 9001.

    This standard is based on a number of quality management principles including a strong customer focus, the motivation and implication of top management, the process approach and continual improvement. Using ISO 9001:2015 helps ensure that customers get consistent, good quality products and services, which in turn brings many business benefits.
    "I never feed trolls and I don't read spam" - Weird Al Yankovic

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Rugongrod View Post
    ISO 9001:2015

    ISO 9001:2015 sets out the criteria for a quality management system and is the only standard in the family that can be certified to (although this is not a requirement). It can be used by any organization, large or small, regardless of its field of activity. In fact, there are over one million companies and organizations in over 170 countries certified to ISO 9001.

    This standard is based on a number of quality management principles including a strong customer focus, the motivation and implication of top management, the process approach and continual improvement. Using ISO 9001:2015 helps ensure that customers get consistent, good quality products and services, which in turn brings many business benefits.
    Thanks I needed a laugh. I've worked in several ISO 9001 certified organisations and all ISO 9001 demonstrates is that you have a process, and can pretend sorry demonstrate to the auditor that you follow the process, it does nothing to ensure quality of anything apart from document formatting.
    Wal's Army on Evernight - Walred (Champ), Walmur (RK), Walbert-2 (Cappy), Walori (Guard), Walrandir (LM), Walora (Warden), Walmo (Burg)

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugongrod View Post
    ISO 9001:2015
    SSG might struggle. More suitable for businesses who supply other businesses. When your customer mostly laps up whatever they are given and your expecting to downsize rather than expand the business they have it about right as it is.

    My little experience of it years ago was having people who didn't really know the ins and out assigned to write procedures that were inadequate for purpose, writing code, but got the accreditation for the marketing peeps, giving them the confidence to go and buy another shawl/scarf.

    But it's far more to do with mindset that anything.

    But where would they start, so many bugs and flawed tech already?

    Mac
    Last edited by Macdui; Dec 19 2018 at 10:57 AM.

  5. #5
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    If I were Cord, I wouldn't answer any more "Questions for Cordovan" threads. :-/
    On Crickhollow: Wenslydale (Hobbit Burglar), Leolwyn (Woman Hunter)
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Once_of_Bree View Post
    Thanks I needed a laugh. I've worked in several ISO 9001 certified organisations and all ISO 9001 demonstrates is that you have a process, and can pretend sorry demonstrate to the auditor that you follow the process, it does nothing to ensure quality of anything apart from document formatting.
    I've worked for a couple of electronic companies that do a lot of DoD contracts and they take the ISO 9001 very serious. However I don't feel it would apply very well with lotro because it is expensive to implement and maintain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echoweaver View Post
    If I were Cord, I wouldn't answer any more "Questions for Cordovan" threads. :-/
    Totally agree. It's really ###### to call out Cord on this. I hope this thread gets locked fast.

  7. #7
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    He won't answer this, especially after the last thread.... but if he does, it will most likely be:

    Thank you for the suggestion.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echoweaver View Post
    If I were Cord, I wouldn't answer any more "Questions for Cordovan" threads. :-/
    I was thinking the same thing. Whatever answers Cordovan will provide, it won't be good enough for SOMEONE on this forum, and there will be problems.....

    Regarding quality control: I suspect the tools and processes are in place, but it's simply a lack of manpower and resources, and the recent issues are not caused by not using tools/processes or misusing any tools/processing, but simply by humans green-lighting things without them being fully tested. You can have the most perfect tools in place..... when the code says that 1+1=3, and a developer approves it for release..... the tool isn't going to tell you that was wrong. It's up to humans to make the final call.
    Moved from Riddermark to Arkenstone on 9/29/2015!
    -----
    Disclaimer: The definition of "Soon™" is based solely on SSG's interpretation of the word, and all similarities with dictionary definitions of the word "Soon™" are purely coincidental and should not be interpreted as a time frame that will come to pass within a reasonable amount of time.

  9. #9
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    Since this thread probably gets locked soon anyway, I can reveal that in my deepest tinfoil moments, I think there is somebody from some other company inside SSG, sabotaging all the code right after it's written, so that everything bugs out when patches go live.







  10. #10
    If you followed the last cord of the rings, i'm pretty sure Cord won't answer any difficult questions anymore here. I had the impression that the result of the last thread with questions has met him personally.

    So, please close this, as cordovan doesn't deserve those flame threads.
    Last edited by WorrBinpike; Dec 19 2018 at 12:13 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkdede View Post
    I just want to know how Cordovan thinks about that.

    1. What kind of qualitytool is SSG using?
    There are many qualitytools out there to improve the quality.
    In my opinion it’s not bad to do a mistake, it’s just bad to do the same mistake more then one time.
    I just want to quote Albert Einstein here: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
    How about to use tools like FMEA?
    Did you know that you can measure a Company by the costs of their qualit?
    CoC should take 2/3 of the quality costs, while ConC should take 1/3.
    CoC = Costs of Conform = for example costs for a qualitytool
    ConC = Costs of not Conform = for example costs for bug fixes

    2. What should main Burglars do?
    Here are some hints:
    - Wait a second week for a hot fix, because dev’s were to busy last week.
    - Accept the weak class and try to find a useful spot like for Abyss of Mordath id2 (taking 90+ corruptions in 4mins).
    - Accept the weak class and stop running instances.
    - Switch to a other class, because there are to many Burglars out there and SSG wants to minimize them.
    ... Maybe switch to a Beo because a Beo can buff more damage and debuff at the same time.
    - Leave the game, because SSG doesn’t like people that wants to play a Burglar.
    Some people need to get a life.... I mean really. And yes ISO9001 is a demonstration that you are organised enough to be ahead of the assessors expectations.

    If you have a serious question regarding this why not email them privately instead of parading your concerns for everyone to see.

    Cordovan is a community manager and not a spokesman for the company interests and policies. If you have a beef with me because I call you out in this thread, then Cordovan is your man. But asking him to comment on business matters is frankly as nonsensical as your post.
    ----A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything----

  12. #12
    the self-important attitudes on these forums are pretty bad.

    if you don't care for the game anymore, move on. you will make more impact with your money than a badly translated dig on what you perceive to be bad project management.

    i have been lifetime from the beginning and i take frequent, long breaks when i dont like where the game has gone or what they have done to the classes i play. i come back when it's fixed in some way whether that's a direct fix to the class or a change to game mechanics that makes previous class tweaks not suck.

    and don't give me that bull about it being lord of the rings and you need the lore - if you need the lore that badly you wouldn't get this worked up over burglar *combat* changes.

  13. #13
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    It should be added that the kinds of questions that he asks are very specific, very business related, and not the kind Cordovan probably would even know to answer..... nor is anyone entitled to answers to those. Those are questions about internal business processes that most companies keep to themselves. I'm sure the OP can come back and say: "Oh yeah? Well this here company and that there company (links provided) explain their internal quality check control processes in great detail on their website", but that doesn't mean any company should do so, will do so, or is obliged to do so, and you will find that 99% of companies keep their internal processes to themselves.

    At the end of the day however, you can have the best processes, the best tools to make sure quality control is in place..... but it will always come down to human decisions in the end, and THAT is where things went wrong lately within SSG. Now, it did happen a few times too many causing FOUR patch days in December alone.... (three with patch notes, one without which was today's hotfix). But at the end, it is all about humans making decisions, not about the quality tools and processes that are in place.

    Example: What quality control processes did NASA have in place when they developed a Mars Orbiter that reached Mars successfully, only to be issued orbiting instructions from earth that contained a value in the Imperial system of measurements (what the US uses) as opposed to Metric (what the world uses) which is how the probe was designed? They sent the wrong value, and the probe crashed on Mars instead of entering its orbit.

    Status: complete mission failure.
    Cause: human error.
    Cost: $327 Million.

    Just be glad they aren't coding things that would blow up their data center.
    Moved from Riddermark to Arkenstone on 9/29/2015!
    -----
    Disclaimer: The definition of "Soon™" is based solely on SSG's interpretation of the word, and all similarities with dictionary definitions of the word "Soon™" are purely coincidental and should not be interpreted as a time frame that will come to pass within a reasonable amount of time.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by MafiaMike View Post
    I've worked for a couple of electronic companies that do a lot of DoD contracts and they take the ISO 9001 very serious. However I don't feel it would apply very well with lotro because it is expensive to implement and maintain.
    Because it is a contractual issue.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teyaha View Post
    the self-important attitudes on these forums are pretty bad.

    if you don't care for the game anymore, move on.
    This is what I don't understand. There are people that think the game is in a horrible state, SSG is managing it horribly, there are bugs they are furious about, they complain loudly on these forums....... but yet when it comes to decide what game to play tonight, their mouse hovers to Lotro and they play the game.

    I understand you have a lot of time and effort vested in characters you created in this world, but at the end of the day.... SSG is merely a business, and you are merely a customer. Unlike phone, television or internet providers (for which you often only have 2 or 3 choices), there are literally THOUSANDS of games out there, and you have a choice of many of them.

    I have quit this game before. And I probably will again. At some point it might no longer grab my attention so much, so I play something else. I have about 60-ish games in Steam from recent years, and there is always something new to try.

    If you despise a product or a store, would you still buy that product or walk into that store? A video game really isn't that different, you are a customer to a business, and if you, the customer, aren't satisfied with the product, you walk out and enter a different store with a similar product that you might like. It's really not that hard.

    And with that said, I might play a little STO during the holidays!
    Moved from Riddermark to Arkenstone on 9/29/2015!
    -----
    Disclaimer: The definition of "Soon™" is based solely on SSG's interpretation of the word, and all similarities with dictionary definitions of the word "Soon™" are purely coincidental and should not be interpreted as a time frame that will come to pass within a reasonable amount of time.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandolf_TheOld View Post
    Because it is a contractual issue.
    Yes but my point was they took it very serious. They they had specific people hired to maintain the ISO process, they would have manager meeting weekly, spot checks to make sure quality procedures were being followed, etcetera. But yes it was also required by contract I'm sure. That was above my pay grade.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkdede View Post
    I just want to know how Cordovan thinks about that.

    1. What kind of qualitytool is SSG using?
    There are many qualitytools out there to improve the quality.
    In my opinion it’s not bad to do a mistake, it’s just bad to do the same mistake more then one time.
    I just want to quote Albert Einstein here: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
    How about to use tools like FMEA?
    Did you know that you can measure a Company by the costs of their qualit?
    CoC should take 2/3 of the quality costs, while ConC should take 1/3.
    CoC = Costs of Conform = for example costs for a qualitytool
    ConC = Costs of not Conform = for example costs for bug fixes
    What quality tool(s) would you suggest: CASE, Project Management, control charts, scatter diagrams, flow charts, Pareto Analysis, Milestone, TQM, Six Sigma, Lean Six Sigma, and so on?

    How do you know that SSG is not performing Quality Control Checks, testing and tracking?

    Do you know how a change in one part of a program can ripple and multiply errors in other parts of a program?

    Have you ever written a program or have you ever taken any Intro to Programming courses?
    Ujest - 120 Lore-master, Opun Tia - 104 Warden, Veneur - 75 Hunter, Cneasai - 61 Minstrel, plus alts and mules
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by MafiaMike View Post
    Yes but my point was they took it very serious. They they had specific people hired to maintain the ISO process, they would have manager meeting weekly, spot checks to make sure quality procedures were being followed, etcetera. But yes it was also required by contract I'm sure. That was above my pay grade.

    Many do take it seriously, it is expensive to implement and maintain. Others just pay lip service...

    Not mine, back then,

    A good QMS is a good thing.
    Ujest - 120 Lore-master, Opun Tia - 104 Warden, Veneur - 75 Hunter, Cneasai - 61 Minstrel, plus alts and mules
    Officer, Pipeweed and Ale, Arkenstone (formerly Friends of Frodo, Vilya)

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by WorrBinpike View Post
    If you followed the last cord of the rings, i'm pretty sure Cord won't answer any difficult questions anymore here. I had the impression that the result of the last thread with questions has met him personally.

    So, please close this, as cordovan doesn't deserve those flame threads.
    I'd have to agree. He posts here to keep us informed and updated. When he goes out of his way to answer some questions, he gets flamed at. I think the SSG team is doing a good job especially with the team size and funds they have to work with.

  20. #20
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    It's a Fair Question

    I think asking SSG what quality tools they use is a fair question. Sure, it's a question a QA representative should answer, not Cordovan. They don't have to go into great detail that would divulge company secrets. Maybe just a high level overview of the tools or how they verify changes.

  21. #21
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    Given the silence month after month about issues with certain classes - not issues that players think are issues but issues that SSG has agreed are issues - I'm less sure than I used to be about their willingness to communicate. Maybe Daybreak *ate* the SSG that used to be a lot better at communication?

    A few people being notable exceptions and Cordovan cannot answer questions if developers working on certain classes (or maybe assigned to those classes but not working on them) refuse to talk to him either.

  22. #22
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    To my mind there is an obvious problem with mistakes getting onto live. Weather is parts of the game that SSG really don't care about and if enough don't notice that's alright then I don't know.

    Had a co-worker going through a tuff personal period for a while and was on anti-depressants, coding kinda went out the window for a bit. I had a knack for tracing down bugs so managed to cover pretty well for that period. Maybe there's still the idea from Turbine days that you don't "judge" another's code, hands off. It could be something as simple as a lack of commenting code over the years, it must be a nightmare to understand. But if it is tough to get a handle on it surely you must allocate the resources to check what going out the door.


    They'll advocate, still, that staff don't need to play to be able to do their job. Debateable, but when it severely impacts gameplay we are going to want someone who will be playing along side us to be doing that work. There are so many nuances to gameplay you can't know without playing. Good grief a lot is over the heads of many that do play.


    This last week we've had a raft of new craft recipes patched in with zero in the patch notes. Did Cord just not get anything passed along, probably. He's paid to take the flack and defend his colleagues not represent us. He wouldn't get all this flack if when he passes things along we get some positive outcome or at least some acknowledgement. Your call is important to us...

    Someone commented on how different our CM's demeanour is on the lotro vs the DDO stream, just this has me thinking we are getting a raw deal. Does it reflect in the ratio of DDO and Lotro infractions handed out of late. I think there's some cause and effect going on; players getting frustrated at a trend that's getting worse by the day, I can't know though. Hunker down and it'll all go away soon. And then other's on the ball and busting a gut to get it right.

    Mac

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xruptor View Post
    I'd have to agree. He posts here to keep us informed and updated. When he goes out of his way to answer some questions, he gets flamed at.
    The posts have rightfully so been deleted, but apparently he got attacked SO badly it turned into a number of permanent bans. So yes, he probably won't take on any "challenge" from the community to "give us answers" on things he might not know the answer to. Ask the guy questions he CAN answer.

    "How does the QA process in SSG work?" might be something he can elaborate on a bit more:
    "Do you use FMEA, or certain quality tools" probably not going to be something he knows or cares to venture in to.

    I still say it doesn't matter what process or tool you use, if NASA can crash a probe on Mars by sending it wrong code, ANY QA process can and will fail, because of the human component. It's just been failing a wee bit too much lately at SSG, is all.
    Moved from Riddermark to Arkenstone on 9/29/2015!
    -----
    Disclaimer: The definition of "Soon™" is based solely on SSG's interpretation of the word, and all similarities with dictionary definitions of the word "Soon™" are purely coincidental and should not be interpreted as a time frame that will come to pass within a reasonable amount of time.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin2099 View Post
    I think asking SSG what quality tools they use is a fair question. Sure, it's a question a QA representative should answer, not Cordovan. They don't have to go into great detail that would divulge company secrets. Maybe just a high level overview of the tools or how they verify changes.
    No actually it’s not.

    These companies, these dev houses and even the companies that made their tools that they license are all competitors in a large market. It would be dumb for any company to reveal to the public all of their inner workings including something that you may consider innocent like the types of project management software they may or may not be using.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by maartena View Post
    Those are questions about internal business processes that most companies keep to themselves.
    Fair point - we can't really know what goes on behinds the scenes at SSG... oh but hang on, you do know what goes on behind the scenes of players:

    Quote Originally Posted by maartena View Post
    This is what I don't understand. There are people that think the game is in a horrible state, SSG is managing it horribly, there are bugs they are furious about, they complain loudly on these forums....... but yet when it comes to decide what game to play tonight, their mouse hovers to Lotro and they play the game.
    How do you know anyone who has valid complaints about the game is still regularly playing the game? Rhetorical question. You don't know. You presume to.

    there are literally THOUSANDS of games out there
    Ha! Implying that lotro rates below thousands of other games isn't exactly a ringing endorsement for the game. Nor is telling people to just go away.

    Ultimately, it all depends on what people are looking for. Ideally I would like SoA, or even a game like it. I returned briefly for the LS, enjoyed it for a little while, then gave my feedback once I realised how even more horribly dumbed down the difficulty was since I last played through 1-25. Unfortunately, nothing even remotely close to SoA exists now, so I don't play lotro or anything like it. Lately my partner and I have been playing Portal 2. Lot of fun working out the puzzles together - I had almost forgotten what an actual game felt like!

    But for everyone else, maybe they only want to play a LOTR game? Or maybe they only want to play MMOs? Either one of those drops the choice way down from "thousands" to a handful. It's not very helpful to tell them to just "go away"

    It's actually quite an interesting strategy posters use to shut down dissent. If you complain too much, you shouldn't be playing the game. But if you don't play, you have no right to complain.

 

 
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